What if you guys are all wrong about universal salvation?

[DanielB]

1.I suppose Satan could have tricked us into believing that God is more powerful and loving and capable than he actually is but it seems improbable. :winkgrin: It seems more probable that Satan convinced people that people would go to hell or people could have convinced themselves.

2. and 4. I think I would still love him. Before I believed in universal reconciliation I had a great deal of suffering and even though I absolutely believed(and still believe) in Gods goodness and that he is always right I could not agree that hell was necessary or good no matter how hard I tried so I prayed to God and a paraphrase of what I prayed goes something like"I am trying to agree with you but I can't! I know hell exists. I know you are right but I can't agree. Help me agree with you because I can't do it myself!" I think God may have answered that prayer in a way I did not expect since unless I am mistaken I agree with God that people do not go to hell for eternity but in any case I loved God through the whole ordeal. If we are wrong then we and or you will either be tortured in heaven for all of eternity(not because we would not want to be with God but because many of our loved ones would be suffering) or we and or you will be tortured in hell for all eternity.

3. If God is unwilling, unable, and or lacks the desire to save ALL those he loves can he truly be called God?

[SevanthDay]

Hello DanielB:

1.I suppose Satan could have tricked us into believing that God is more powerful and loving and capable than he actually is but it seems improbable. :winkgrin: It seems more probable that Satan convinced people that people would go to hell or people could have convinced themselves.

2. and 4. I think I would still love him. Before I believed in universal reconciliation I had a great deal of suffering and even though I absolutely believed(and still believe) in Gods goodness and that he is always right I could not agree that hell was necessary or good no matter how hard I tried so I prayed to God and a paraphrase of what I prayed goes something like"I am trying to agree with you but I can't! I know hell exists. I know you are right but I can't agree. Help me agree with you because I can't do it myself!" I think God may have answered that prayer in a way I did not expect since unless I am mistaken I agree with God that people do not go to hell for eternity but in any case I loved God through the whole ordeal. If we are wrong then we and or you will either be tortured in heaven for all of eternity(not because we would not want to be with God but because many of our loved ones would be suffering) or we and or you will be tortured in hell for all eternity.

3. If God is unwilling, unable, and or lacks the desire to save ALL those he loves can he truly be called God?

Where does scriptures teach that hell is a place that we go to? Hell means grave where there is no consciousness or means imperceptible which corresponds to the Greek Hades. The other word is Gehenna and figuratively it is fire judgement which corresponds perhaps to the lake of fire judgement which again should not be taken literally but taken symbolically.

There is a positive redeeming value to the lake of fire judgement which is the second death. Hades and Thanatos were cast into the lake of fire. Both words have to be taken literally or they make no sense. You do not throw a literal dead man into a lake of fire. In the second resurrection they are not raised physically dead but they are spiritually dead. Thus, the word Hades and Thanatos must be taken literally. Hades represents spiritual death which means no spiritual awareness or separation from God. Thanatos means the state of dying and when you put the two words together it means dying to spiritual death or dying to  the carnal self or sin nature. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" 1Co 15:26 Death here is Thanatos. This death here is the dying to self or our sinful nature which is death. "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1Co 15:54  Again death here is the Greek word Thanatos.

We can understand that through Christ we must overcome death. "To be carnally minded is death" Romans 8:6

That is what the second death is in Revelations Chapter 20. Now, the saints in the first resurrection do no have to participate in the second death after the great throne judgement because that they have gone through it by dying to their carnal nature.

I can give you more scriptures if you request them.

The book of revelations is not to be taken literally: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" Rev 1:1 This is pointed out to us in the very first verse and so this is very important to understand! Also, in the very first chapter we are given some symbols with interpretations so we know that that chapter can not be taken completely literally. The same follows for the rest of the book but we have to search the scriptures not just revelations to find interpretations for these symbols.

You can be assured the lake of fire judgement is not to be taken literally and those who do so are given us a false gospel. In the light of Jesus being the Savior of humanity through his atonement for our sins and to free us from our sin nature and to have the life of Christ in us by the indwelling Holy Spirit we can understand that the lake of fire is a positive outworking of God's grace and judgement and there is hope of salvation and spiritual sanctification for those who go through this judgement.

Jesus is the Savior of humanity and scriptures abundantly show that it is Jesus will that all are saved and salvation is contingent on the outworking of the Holy Spirit to believe in Christ but not contingent on man. There are a multitude of scriptures that prove this and any scriptures that state man must repent and believe is still contingent on God to see to that and not the other way around. Thus, man believes and repents by the grace of God and God alone. It is God's will being done because man in his carnal and lost state would not believe and repent. It may appear that man has believed on his own initiative but that is not the case but that God has been working on his heart all along, Salvation is totally a work of God and that includes man beveling in him!

I hope that I have been of some help.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[JulieTang84]

 :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

A wonderful message beautifully said. Thank you  :girlheart:

Love Julie.

[Tom]

Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?

1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?

2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?

3. What if God really is like this?

4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?

I believe in universal reconciliation because that is what the word of God says.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

The phrase "eternal hell" is not even in the word of God because it's a false doctrine supported by intentional mistranslation to promote Roman church tradition.

The word "hell" is the Old English translation for "hades" literally meaning "unperceived" or "unseen" which was used twelve times in the New Testament to mistranslate "Gehenna," the dump outside Jerusalem where the corpses of condemned criminals were burned and will be again in the coming eon (Isaiah 66:23,24).

The word "eternal" is a mistranslation of the Greek "aionion" which is the adjective of "aion" literally meaning "eon," a period of time not endless time.

It is the church established by the Roman Empire which I used to belong to that is "wrong" and has "led people astray" with their lie about torture forever in fire. They tried to suppress the word of God by killing people with fire simply for reading it, but that didn't work.

The word "hell" simply represents the "unseen" state of dead souls.

All mankind will eventually be saved from death.

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

[micah7:9]

When that last breath goes from my house of clay, believing that when I am raised from my grave of dust, knowing that Jesus Rose From the Death of dust and that it was LOVE that caused His Will to obey, just knowing and believing that, over whelms any other thought. I don't really care if I was wrong about a universal salvation, I was happy when that breath expired.
Should I believe the eternal torment teaching I would hate the God who created me and I would curse His value as a god of love and... man just thinking of such a god and such a demise makes me want to hate! :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

Thinking of the hell doctrine, or hearing it taught, makes me angry!, because it is such a gross distortion of the Truth!

[jbertonbounds]

The truth is, salvation from death is for all mankind!  Salvation for God's special purpose in the Great Millennium is for believers who overcome their fleshly desires in this life.  There is no hell; it is a pagan myth. :eek: The lake of fire (a figurative term) is a temporary, loving, corrective process of purification.  Jesus the Christ really is the savior of all mankind,  :banana: because it is God's will that all people come to him, so he can dwell with us eternally.  God's will shall be done!

Wow, I just love telling these things! :HeartThrob:

The more I study this, the clearer it becomes in the scriptures.  The scriptures teach universal reconciliation and ultimate salvation of all people through the sacrifice of Jesus, I don't care what any evangelist says.  The Law requires a sacrifice to cover sin.  Jesus became the sacrifice for all sin, thus fulfilling the Law and setting us free from our debtor's prison.  In the earthly realm, when a prisoner is set free, he does not have the option of staying there, he is removed from the correctional facility and set free, not by his will, but by the law of the land and the will of the powers over him.  The same is true in the spiritual realm.  When I began to "see" these things in the scriptures, I began to feel so much closer to the Father, so much closer to Jesus - much more so than ever before. 

Come to the light, people, come to the light and see it's beauty! :dsunny:

[mplsfitter539]

jberton I like how you said that, thank you. It really does sound simple that way you explained it

[KathyB]

Jb, I love that analogy!  And yes, the fruit of believing such a glorious truth, is  a closer walk with Jesus, a much greater love for others with out judgement vs wanting to go out and live any old way I feel, like so many have told me when I try and share the good news.

[jbertonbounds]

Jb, I love that analogy!  And yes, the fruit of believing such a glorious truth, is  a closer walk with Jesus, a much greater love for others with out judgement vs wanting to go out and live any old way I feel, like so many have told me when I try and share the good news.

That is often one of the first questions people ask when you share UR: "You mean you believe you can just go out and do anything you want and it won't matter because everybody's going to heaven anyway!?"  This attitude provides proof, IMO, that many ET'ers, deep-down, believe that the wicked deserve to burn in hell, and that they are actually looking forward to seeing that come to fruition.  They won't tell you that, but I think that is often what is going on in the back of their minds - that scenario is not the mindset of the Christ.  I think I should know - I used to be one of them. :eek:

[mplsfitter539]

jberton you have exactly 666 posts as of the last one

[dajomaco]

The mind set ;
That if I give money and time to the church.
Simple reasoning would say that I am in a better position
before God that the guy that doesn't give.

That is this world's wisdom and it has no part of the Spirit.
We must overcome the flesh and stop appealing to God.
through our reasoning.
Our counting and weighing of that which we believe God is
responsible to respond.   

This is the reason for my opinion.

[jbertonbounds]

jberton you have exactly 666 posts as of the last one

:eek:


Not anymore! :banana:

[JulieTang84]

What if you guys are all wrong about universal salvation?


What if we are not?  :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/unbeliever.html

[ded2daworld]

Amen Tom. Good one! :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

What if you guys are all wrong about universal salvation?


What if we are not?  :HeartThrob:

Wow! Simplicity so beautiful and profound :o)

[jbertonbounds]

"Faith is but the channel of grace; it does not produce salvation." - Concorant.org, The Salvation of the Unbeliever

:dsunny:

I love this profound truth.  Most of the world teaches that WE muster up our own faith, WE choose Him, WE choose whether or not to be saved, WE "put" our faith in Him, WE, WE, WE . . . do things to produce salvation, make it happen for us.  Lies.  We do make choices, but HE chose us, HE provided salvation.  We don't have the option of choosing whether or not to be saved.  We don't choose our own destiny.  We don't do anything to make salvation become a reality for us.  Eph 2 [ESV] "⁸For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ⁹not a result of works, so that no one may boast."  It's all about Yahweh!

:dsunny:

[Tom]

"Faith is but the channel of grace; it does not produce salvation." - Concorant.org, The Salvation of the Unbeliever

:dsunny:

I love this profound truth.  Most of the world teaches that WE muster up our own faith, WE choose Him, WE choose whether or not to be saved, WE "put" our faith in Him, WE, WE, WE . . . do things to produce salvation, make it happen for us.  Lies.  We do make choices, but HE chose us, HE provided salvation.  We don't have the option of choosing whether or not to be saved.  We don't choose our own destiny.  We don't do anything to make salvation become a reality for us.  Eph 2 [ESV] "⁸For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ⁹not a result of works, so that no one may boast."  It's all about Yahweh!

:dsunny:

Amen, bro. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1zXb8XNsLw

[dajomaco]

"Faith is but the channel of grace; it does not produce salvation." - Concorant.org, The Salvation of the Unbeliever

:dsunny:

I love this profound truth.  Most of the world teaches that WE muster up our own faith, WE choose Him, WE choose whether or not to be saved, WE "put" our faith in Him, WE, WE, WE . . . do things to produce salvation, make it happen for us.  Lies.  We do make choices, but HE chose us, HE provided salvation.  We don't have the option of choosing whether or not to be saved.  We don't choose our own destiny.  We don't do anything to make salvation become a reality for us.  Eph 2 [ESV] "⁸For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ⁹not a result of works, so that no one may boast."  It's all about Yahweh!

:dsunny:

Hello jbertonbounds:

Exactly! Salvation is of God including our believing in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Excellent Post!

God bless you,

SeventhDay

:iagree: :dsunny:

Satan has a two headed coin.
Heads he wins.   
I see Pride as a two headed coin on one side is heads; false pride.
The other side is heads false humility.

This is truth that of all the billions of people here on earth now.
He chose to reveal himself to me.

   Then the Jews surrounded Him and asked, "How long are You going to keep us in suspense? If You are the Messiah, tell us plainly."

I have the freedom because of my understanding of U.R.


I can ask this question a thousand different ways
" If You are the Messiah, tell me plainly."

The answers are always different with the same results.
God Loves me so much that he gave his only begotten son
the opportunity to please him by coming here to this realm and rescue me.
He got me out by giving up his I.D.
He stayed behind and was killed.
But some how he came alive and I am on my way to go meet him and thank him.
The holy spirit is guiding me in the Way.   

[DanielB]

Hello DanielB:

1.I suppose Satan could have tricked us into believing that God is more powerful and loving and capable than he actually is but it seems improbable. :winkgrin: It seems more probable that Satan convinced people that people would go to hell or people could have convinced themselves.

2. and 4. I think I would still love him. Before I believed in universal reconciliation I had a great deal of suffering and even though I absolutely believed(and still believe) in Gods goodness and that he is always right I could not agree that hell was necessary or good no matter how hard I tried so I prayed to God and a paraphrase of what I prayed goes something like"I am trying to agree with you but I can't! I know hell exists. I know you are right but I can't agree. Help me agree with you because I can't do it myself!" I think God may have answered that prayer in a way I did not expect since unless I am mistaken I agree with God that people do not go to hell for eternity but in any case I loved God through the whole ordeal. If we are wrong then we and or you will either be tortured in heaven for all of eternity(not because we would not want to be with God but because many of our loved ones would be suffering) or we and or you will be tortured in hell for all eternity.

3. If God is unwilling, unable, and or lacks the desire to save ALL those he loves can he truly be called God?

Where does scriptures teach that hell is a place that we go to? Hell means grave where there is no consciousness or means imperceptible which corresponds to the Greek Hades. The other word is Gehenna and figuratively it is fire judgement which corresponds perhaps to the lake of fire judgement which again should not be taken literally but taken symbolically.

There is a positive redeeming value to the lake of fire judgement which is the second death. Hades and Thanatos were cast into the lake of fire. Both words have to be taken literally or they make no sense. You do not throw a literal dead man into a lake of fire. In the second resurrection they are not raised physically dead but they are spiritually dead. Thus, the word Hades and Thanatos must be taken literally. Hades represents spiritual death which means no spiritual awareness or separation from God. Thanatos means the state of dying and when you put the two words together it means dying to spiritual death or dying to  the carnal self or sin nature. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" 1Co 15:26 Death here is Thanatos. This death here is the dying to self or our sinful nature which is death. "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1Co 15:54  Again death here is the Greek word Thanatos.

We can understand that through Christ we must overcome death. "To be carnally minded is death" Romans 8:6

That is what the second death is in Revelations Chapter 20. Now, the saints in the first resurrection do no have to participate in the second death after the great throne judgement because that they have gone through it by dying to their carnal nature.

I can give you more scriptures if you request them.

The book of revelations is not to be taken literally: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" Rev 1:1 This is pointed out to us in the very first verse and so this is very important to understand! Also, in the very first chapter we are given some symbols with interpretations so we know that that chapter can not be taken completely literally. The same follows for the rest of the book but we have to search the scriptures not just revelations to find interpretations for these symbols.

You can be assured the lake of fire judgement is not to be taken literally and those who do so are given us a false gospel. In the light of Jesus being the Savior of humanity through his atonement for our sins and to free us from our sin nature and to have the life of Christ in us by the indwelling Holy Spirit we can understand that the lake of fire is a positive outworking of God's grace and judgement and there is hope of salvation and spiritual sanctification for those who go through this judgement.

Jesus is the Savior of humanity and scriptures abundantly show that it is Jesus will that all are saved and salvation is contingent on the outworking of the Holy Spirit to believe in Christ but not contingent on man. There are a multitude of scriptures that prove this and any scriptures that state man must repent and believe is still contingent on God to see to that and not the other way around. Thus, man believes and repents by the grace of God and God alone. It is God's will being done because man in his carnal and lost state would not believe and repent. It may appear that man has believed on his own initiative but that is not the case but that God has been working on his heart all along, Salvation is totally a work of God and that includes man believing in him!

I hope that I have been of some help.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

Thank you for your concern but I think you may have misunderstood me. When I said "I suppose Satan could have tricked us into believing that God is more powerful and loving and capable than he actually is but it seems improbable." I was mostly trying to point out how ridiculous the concept of satan convincing us that Universal Reconciliation is the truth since it seems like satan would insult God rather than claim that God is great and powerful and benevolent. Not that the person asking the question is ridiculous just the concept of the question. I just found it kind of humorous. And when I say "hell" I am talking about the fictional hell that most Eternal Torment believers believe in rather than the words it is translated from.

[SevanthDay]

The truth is, salvation from death is for all mankind!  Salvation for God's special purpose in the Great Millennium is for believers who overcome their fleshly desires in this life.  There is no hell; it is a pagan myth. :eek: The lake of fire (a figurative term) is a temporary, loving, corrective process of purification.  Jesus the Christ really is the savior of all mankind,  :banana: because it is God's will that all people come to him, so he can dwell with us eternally.  God's will shall be done!

Wow, I just love telling these things! :HeartThrob:

The more I study this, the clearer it becomes in the scriptures.  The scriptures teach universal reconciliation and ultimate salvation of all people through the sacrifice of Jesus, I don't care what any evangelist says.  The Law requires a sacrifice to cover sin.  Jesus became the sacrifice for all sin, thus fulfilling the Law and setting us free from our debtor's prison.  In the earthly realm, when a prisoner is set free, he does not have the option of staying there, he is removed from the correctional facility and set free, not by his will, but by the law of the land and the will of the powers over him.  The same is true in the spiritual realm.  When I began to "see" these things in the scriptures, I began to feel so much closer to the Father, so much closer to Jesus - much more so than ever before. 

Come to the light, people, come to the light and see it's beauty! :dsunny:

Hello jbertonbounds:

I heard the message that God would reconcile all within a couple of days of being a Christian. I was filled with amazement and thirty years later I am still amazed and have a burning desire to see people hear this good news especially Christians. God reconciling all unto himself is the real and true good news that ought to be preached and if it is less than that it is a false gospel!

God bless you,

Seventh Day

[eaglesway]

Amen!

[Mediate]

I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?

1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?


If Satan has made me want to actively love everyone more than myself, to fulfil Jesus two greatest commandments then, to love my enemies, to wish well for those who hate me, and to hope that all people come to enlightenment and live in paradise and that God's will is realized, then go Satan, and Satan has changed a lot since I last heard from him.


2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?

If God is a God of eternal hell, then God 'who intends that all be saved', doesn't intend that all be saved. Thus, God's a liar, and isn't God.

3. What if God really is like this?

See no 2.


4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?

Led people astray to what? Led them to wishing well for those who hate them, hoping and praying for those averse to them, having a great joy in the knowledge that God will save and rescue even the people the most lost? I don't see how that's astray from anything God wants for man, except to the man who thinks God wants something other than that for man.

You might think that salvation for all means that it's benificial, or allowed, or inconsequential, to go arround sinning and hurting others. But it isn't. I don't need the fear of hell to be able to recognize that. How many bad decisions bear good fruit? I'll hazard a guess at none.

Life of good quality isn't giving into any whims I might have. That's the way to think that leads to ruin. Following any whim or desire means we follow things that are fleeting and perishable. We eat the fruit and we become the fruit. Lusts are selfish desires. To follow all lusts is to be temporary, since lusts change at any given moment. They 'burn the soul', because they are anxious things, and they are never fulfilled, never quenched.

to forego such desires and learn compassionate, self-sacrificing ones, is to build with Jesus' foundation. It is the 'narrow path', the 'middle way'.

Most people on earth follow whims. And are hollow because of it. They are 'fettered in bondage' and they 'die', since desires themselves are perishable things. They are not a steady person, and their life is not a stready life. Up and down, round and round, a whirlwind thing with no foundation. This is anguish.

And such people's decisions lead them to shame, or like 'being thrown in gehenna'.

A moral compass is not something that should be dependent on fear of hell either. Since fear is a fleeting thing, something that can be overcome. Fear, is a desire to avoid, a selfish desire nonetheless. Fear also leads like a bit in the mouth, and 'burns the soul'.

Jesus said that anything taught should be tested by the spirit it contains. What kind of spirit (or perspective, or motive) does a translation of a concept of 'gehenna' ( a place of shame) into a teaching of fiery, never-ending, unflinching agony say about those who wrote it?

'When you make the two one, the upper like the lower, the inner like the outer, the male and female one, that not one is male nor the other female opposed to it, and a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, and an eye in place of an eye, then you shall recognize the kingdom'.

'If they say 'the kingdom is in the sky', then the birds precede you, if they say 'it is in the sea', then the fish precede you. For the kingdom is within you, then outside you. When you know yourselves, you shall understand that you are children of the living father, but if you do not, then you live in despair, for you are the despair'.

If hell as it is known widely, is the teaching of the most authoritative being in all existence (to those who believe it), then to what lengths do you think they will go to 'honour' their God of hell?

King James personally oversaw the torture of those accused of being witches. Constantine had people executed for disagreeing with him. Many Christian emperors were war-mongers. If God is capable of hell, then oh how much more righteous are those that dish it out?

Hell is a dangerous word, and it is far far away from 'have compassion for those against you'.

Those teaching hell, teach a salvation full of contradictions. That 'we cannot get salvation by anything we do', yet we must 'believe to be saved'.

They lock up the words of good news and hope and joy and faith and make it unattainable and unknowable. Even the word 'love', to them, is contradictory. That isn't to say that I hate them, though. I have a great hope for everyone. I pity them more than I hate them. They are locked in despair.

'Will I go to hell, won't I? Oh what if my family burns forever? God please'.

Sleepness nights, shaky foundations, uncertainty. Those things aren't healthy.

But I'm certain that you and I will end up in the same place. Unshakably so. I don't have all the answers, but what I do know is that God is of light. His thoughts higher than ours, his ways higher than ours. I know that understanding myself, my unity in despair with humanity, is the key to unlocking all the things that I share with humanity. And that's when I make the two one.

I see myself in other people. 'Treat others as you would have them treat you'.

There is no me vs them.

A wise man once said 'fight with others, and there is no winner. Fight with oneself, and you will unlock the truth'.

[eaglesway]

what if Satan has tricked people into believing that Jesus' death was not enough and that when Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" He was confused and that His cross was not really all that powerful and that "God who so loved the world" really dint love the world that much and had ordained before the foundation of the world that most of the people who ever lived would bur forever in flames of torment.

And what if Satan did this so that the light that is in you is darkness and so that the gospel would be "evil spoken of among men" and so that people would be "veiled" to "the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ".

Just wonderin.