What if you guys are all wrong about universal salvation?

[moon7171]

Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?

1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?

2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?

3. What if God really is like this?

4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?

[misszoolander]

To be honest,

I could not love a god like the one you have mentioned. The selfish part of me says that that I will try to love him out of fear, but is that love? No, I'll be doomed.

I'd rather not exist entirely, then to pretend to love such a god.

Your questions bring on many more questions..

Why should we love God?

Because he created us? Because his only son died for us? Because he is so big and powerful? Because he love us, not just some of us? all of us?

OR

Should we love God because we fear his eternal hell?

Which one would God prefer? A pure joyous love, that praises his name, marvels at his wonders, hopes and trusts him with the future of the world?

OR

A love that praises him from saving them from eternal hell? A love that see's victory in revenge, that skims over the hard questions and only cares about ones own salvation and that of fellow christians..?

[Lazarus Short]

Moon, remember that man's justice is to exact "to the last penny," or to take revenge/retribution.  God's justice was to send His Own Son to die in our place, to pay the penalty for our sins, or as John the Baptist said it, to take away the sins of the world.  In view of that, do you still have any doubt?

Read through God's law in the books of Moses, especially the law of the Jubilee.  At a set time, trumpets would sound throughout the land, all debts were canceled, and every slave and indentured servant went free to go home to their inheritance, without debt or further obligation.  That law for an ancient society is the model for a spiritual reality in which we will be resurrected free of all sin, debt, or obligations, to be co-heirs with Christ.  There is just no place for Hell in that scheme!

[shawn]

Moon,

You ask good questions.

First, let me address your last question.  Lead people astray?  Meaning belief in hell is essential for salvation?  No, the way I see it, is I'm to err, I'll err on the side of Gods agape love.  If I'm to err I believe God is powerful enough to get exactly what He wants, which is for all men to be saved.  How much worse would it be to err on God burning people in hellfire?  You consider Hitler evil, yet the suffering he created had end.  But, much of the church would have me believe God will do much worse for all of eternity.  Let me ask you a question?  What if you are wrong and you have led people astray?  If you err do you err on God creating then torturing?  How does that look to you?  How do you resolve that with Gods nature which is defined in the Bible as love?  Sorry, I haven't bought that...not since I was old enough to think about God.

[ded2daworld]

Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?

1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
God so loved the world...we cannot love the world more than God does. Has God commanded eternal concious torment? If so, what verse specifically says that? Is there anyone that believes the "Good news" is that Satan gets 95% of humanity because God cannot or will not save as He specifically sent Jesus to do. "It is the will of God that ALL men be saved" Is Jesus Saviour of all or 5%?
No love for a God of no love. God is NOT love according to ET people but a sadistic, psychotic. ...and we're not talking millions but multiple Billions that God supposedly loses to Satan. It boils down to either God is a sadistic psychotic, way less powerful than Satan, or he is the God of Love that wills all men to be ultimately reconciled to him.

2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
If this is indeed God's plan as you say, Why did he not mention it to any old testament peoples, why is he losing to Satan, why wasn't the NT clear that God's plan is not really "Good News" but frightful news?
God revealing to me there is an eternal hell? That would be impossible. I've known God for over 40 years and the concept of eternally torturing even a part of his creation is, as he says, something he never even thought of. The question, to me, is like, What if God reveals to you that you've never really been alive? It would be a moot point then wouldn't it?

3. What if God really is like this?
A Sadistic Psychotic, weak, loser? Sorry, any one of those 4 definitions would defy the very definition of God. In other words, if God is like that then it's not God. Could turn it around also, what if Satan as an angel of light has deceived ET'er into believing God is just waiting and watching, looking forward to their next screw up so He can revoke salvation and torture forever after death?

4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
Since we are saved by the grace of God, there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation(free gift). It follows that since there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation, there is nothing I can do to lose it. Besides, it would still be unknowingly even if there was such a thing as what TV, the movies, and most evangelists call "Hell"
Your #4 question follows from #3 where in Satan has deceived into believing God is out to "get them" (and not for salvation but torture) :Peace2:

[reFORMer]

The OP "what ifs?" just don't work on someone who has studied what the Bible says about this.  I have a clarity of understanding and am secure in the knowledge of the truth because I read and searched and read some more of what is written in Holy Scripture.  I also read what people on both side of the argument say.  The ceaseless torture for ever people just don't have a standing in the Word.  I've met Jesus and He is just as the Word calls Him:  "The Savior of All."

[micah7:9]

How can there be a debate with anyone who has not taken the time to find out what the word "hell" means? By definition the word "hell" means the place of the unseen, pit, grave.
There is no "eternal torment" in the meaning or definition of the word "hell," unless one embraces most denominational "religious" teachings, including for most christianity, and satan is not an angel(messenger) of light, the adversary "transforms" into, and that should trouble a lot of people who are teaching "things" that are not in the Bible.
2Co 11:14  and no wonder--for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;

[ded2daworld]

IMO, Moon7171 isn't really interested in answers. An ET'er that is afraid to disbelieve in something that doesn't exist. :sigh:

[shawn]

IMO, Moon7171 isn't really interested in answers. An ET'er that is afraid to disbelieve in something that doesn't exist. :sigh:

You are probably right.  But, maybe some of the believers who also believe in ET, who come here...even to pick a fight...are searching in their own way.  We all had to start somewhere.

[CHB]

How can there be a debate with anyone who has not taken the time to find out what the word "hell" means? By definition the word "hell" means the place of the unseen, pit, grave.
There is no "eternal torment" in the meaning or definition of the word "hell," unless one embraces most denominational "religious" teachings, including for most christianity, and satan is not an angel(messenger) of light, the adversary "transforms" into, and that should trouble a lot of people who are teaching "things" that are not in the Bible.
2Co 11:14  and no wonder--for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;

Yes, if the meaning of the words "hell, forever, and eternal" were understood it would clear up a lot of misunderstandings about salvation.

CHB

[jabcat]

Good answers everyone.  Time tells on moon, if they don't come back, then.....

[Lazarus Short]

Don't you all think it's a bit rude discussing Moon, rather than the thread subject, on his own thread?

[redhotmagma]

It's quite a warm welcome he's receiving that's for sure Laz. He's only posted once and since he hasn't responded we can assume he's an ETer?  :sigh:  even if he was those are still fair questions to ask and haven't been asked in an inflammatory way.   :doh:

[marie glen]

Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?

1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?

2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?

3. What if God really is like this?

4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?

:Chinscratch: Perhaps the gospel after 2000 years of being passed down through human hands, and being made up of humans, has lost some of the glory of its message? And, has picked up some baggage along the way? And now reflects a human image of God? A curse thy enemy image?

God can only be Perfect. And no one can stay His Hand.. cannot prevent His Will "God desires that all be saved.."

..also UR doesn't mean 'quit preaching the gospel' - it may mean a larger harvest, for love draws.. and "mercy hath kissed judgment" (trumped)

Why have a 2nd resurrection? by the end of everyone having experienced being resurrected, and by the end of judgement day (which has to be a veRy loong day) is when is stated "those not in the book of life" (those not believing) "will go to the LOF".

[shawn]

Don't you all think it's a bit rude discussing Moon, rather than the thread subject, on his own thread?

Never even crossed my mind as rude.  I suppose we each have our own ideas of what rude entails.

[shawn]

It's quite a warm welcome he's receiving that's for sure Laz. He's only posted once and since he hasn't responded we can assume he's an ETer?  :sigh:  even if he was those are still fair questions to ask and haven't been asked in an inflammatory way.   :doh:

I probably shouldnt rescue but I have seen alot of splitting lately here.  It's actually starting to get in the way of discussion. When someone fails to introduce themselves, and starts right in with typical ET party lines I can see why some might get a bit defensive.  I think we should engage anyone here with respect, especially those who support ET.  But, if some grow weary of the attacks I do understand.

With that said, I think most have given honest well thought out responses to the questions in the OP without attacking the a new member.  Grace goes a long way even with our own.

[Lazarus Short]

I apologize to all if I spoke wrongly, but the comments struck me as being like a three-way conversation where 2 and 3 were discussing 1 in the third person.

[moon7171]

Hello again! Sorry people, I usually jump on the comp once a day :)
Nice answers folks, and I apologize, I should have introduced myself first.
I don't mean to stamp on your ideas, for they are my own as well, it's just that these questions have locked me up in fear, and who else is there to talk about such things? The only Christians in my life are very dogmatic, and I can't discuss such matters with them. I have been learning about the origins of hell, but I tell you what when you have been brought up thinking and believing something is a fact, and that the very idea of thinking maybe it is not so means you are "falling away" it is a very scary thing!

I have found my faith to be stretching, it feels like I'm stepping out into something so unknown, with only God to guide me.
Going to church requires devotion, but little faith. Following traditional Christians and their ways is like swimming downstream, I want to swim upstream, with Gods help.

[eaglesway]

Bless you and grace to you. May the God of all that is send His Spirit to lead you and guide you into all truth.

www.hellisamyth.com

[moon7171]

Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?

1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?
God so loved the world...we cannot love the world more than God does. Has God commanded eternal concious torment? If so, what verse specifically says that? Is there anyone that believes the "Good news" is that Satan gets 95% of humanity because God cannot or will not save as He specifically sent Jesus to do. "It is the will of God that ALL men be saved" Is Jesus Saviour of all or 5%?
No love for a God of no love. God is NOT love according to ET people but a sadistic, psychotic. ...and we're not talking millions but multiple Billions that God supposedly loses to Satan. It boils down to either God is a sadistic psychotic, way less powerful than Satan, or he is the God of Love that wills all men to be ultimately reconciled to him.

2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?
If this is indeed God's plan as you say, Why did he not mention it to any old testament peoples, why is he losing to Satan, why wasn't the NT clear that God's plan is not really "Good News" but frightful news?
God revealing to me there is an eternal hell? That would be impossible. I've known God for over 40 years and the concept of eternally torturing even a part of his creation is, as he says, something he never even thought of. The question, to me, is like, What if God reveals to you that you've never really been alive? It would be a moot point then wouldn't it?

3. What if God really is like this?
A Sadistic Psychotic, weak, loser? Sorry, any one of those 4 definitions would defy the very definition of God. In other words, if God is like that then it's not God. Could turn it around also, what if Satan as an angel of light has deceived ET'er into believing God is just waiting and watching, looking forward to their next screw up so He can revoke salvation and torture forever after death?

4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?
Since we are saved by the grace of God, there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation(free gift). It follows that since there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation, there is nothing I can do to lose it. Besides, it would still be unknowingly even if there was such a thing as what TV, the movies, and most evangelists call "Hell"
Your #4 question follows from #3 where in Satan has deceived into believing God is out to "get them" (and not for salvation but torture) :Peace2:

Thank you very much for your detailed response Ded2theworld.
How I can wait to unravel this mystery, words cannot even express how amazing it would be if everyone I love gets eventually saved! It is silly of me to think God would judge me with eternal hell because I'm confused, but thats how fear works I guess. You live your life not asking the hard questions, because you 1. may be afraid of the answer or 2. cannot trust that God is a good God who will make everything right.

The reason I asked the question about loving God if there is a hell is because like the poster missz I too feel like now once my mind is clearer, I cannot go back, I can only go forward with this, no matter how confused I will get I am drawn to this gospel.
I don't think I can love a God that knew beforehand how many people were going to burn alive forever, and left it to us mere humans to save ourselves.

[moon7171]

IMO, Moon7171 isn't really interested in answers. An ET'er that is afraid to disbelieve in something that doesn't exist. :sigh:

Oh Shoot! I Apologize, I was not looking for a debate, just asking some questions!   :sigh:

[ded2daworld]

It's me that should apologise. We have had bad experiences in the past with people posting once and they had no intention of coming back, they just wanted to assert the ET point of view. I do aplogise. :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

Should my post have been rude, I will apologize, still should one make ones study of the Bible to be foremost, and one should study the Bible, rather than what religion teaches as truth and one has come this far in questions, this far in the journey, treasures of truth should be welcome. Still, I suppose when I tell anyone there is no eternal torment,(which one has been told and believes is "hell") it may be rude, but I personally and in my opinion will have spoke a truth and my small voice, stifled by the roar of untruth, is what I have.  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:   

[scarletwren]

Hi Moon,

The 'what if' game has no good solution.  WHAT IF the God of the Christian Bible is not the real God but the god of the Koran is and all us Christians are doomed?  Or what if all those Hindu gods are the real ones?  Or Zeus and Athena and Pan, et al?

Is the creator of the universe really that cruel to make us each responsible for our own fate?  We can't control what happens in any given moment now, yet we are still supposed to transcend all that's around us and find the spiritual truth?  We've barely scratched the surface of physical things.

The day I started believing in the reconciliation of all, it was like scales fell from my eyes and the joy I felt was indescribable.  I cried tears of great joy and thankfulness, mostly for releasing me from the torment of uncertainty and fear for my own soul as well as those of the whole world.. From that moment, I have never doubted that God loves us that much.  I have learned a lot more since then and I am still conflicted over some things.  But they don't matter.  All will be straightened out in due time.

Welcome to the freedom one encounters with this truth, Moon.  It is frustrating when our loved ones and close friends can't see this beautiful 'heresy' the same way, but whereas they might worry and fret over our 'salvation' we know that God will never ever forsake them or the one we consider the most evil, vile sinner on earth, for they are His workmanship and He has a desire to the work of His hands.

How loud will ring the praises of our awesome and loving God on that day when all confess Him and kneel to him in sheer love, gratitude and devotion.  Amen, Maranatha.

[sheila]

   the confusion of Babylon religious kingdom..foments confusion....Moon....if you go to Him in

  praayer..and ask for confirmation..not doubting He will answer you,He will.

    He has done this for many.   Jude 22  Be merciful to those who doubt;snatch others from the fire[hell-

   fire torment doctrine] and save them. To others show mercy..mixed with fear-hating even the clothing

  stained by corrupted flesh

     God Bless and keep you and make His face to shine upon you :HeartThrob:

   p..s..when I finally sw His face and not His back...I thought! Finally a God I can really love!!!

    Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ll thy heart soul and mind.........the word of God does

  not return to Him void....when we come to really know Him..we find a God after our own heart

   welcome to the forum