What if you guys are all wrong about universal salvation?

[dajomaco]

The Spirit helps me know where to draw lines.  The flesh clouds my judgement.  Staying close to God and being led by his Spirit is of utmost importance in living in the truth and light.  We must deny the flesh, staying clean of pornography and lust, dishonesty, revenge, drunkeness and drug abuse, slander and heresy, pursuit of material goods and self gratification, etc.  When we deny our flesh and keep our minds on Jesus, the scriptures, and God's kingdom, remaining humble and loving to others, and remaining faithful even in the face of persecution, we live in truth and light.   :dsunny:  That, my friends, is the definition of an overcomer.

Now we know that whatever the law says speaks to those who are subject to the law,[n] so that every mouth may be shut and the whole world may become subject to God's judgment.

• 20 For no one will be justified[p] in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.
  
  The knowledge of sin IMO there is no reason what so ever
  to have the knowledge of sin and walk in the spirit.
  
  The knowledge of Law IMO there is no reason what so ever
  to have the knowledge of Law and walk in the spirit.
  
  God's Righteousness through Faith
  21 But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed—attested by the Law and the Prophets[q] 22 —that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ,[r] to all who believe, since there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as a propitiation[t] through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. 26 God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.
  
  
  Not Doing and Doing this is the game the enemy tries to get us to play
  so we blink and look away from grace.

[jbertonbounds]

Now we know that whatever the law says speaks to those who are subject to the law,[n] so that every mouth may be shut and the whole world may become subject to God's judgment.

• 20 For no one will be justified[p] in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.
  
  The knowledge of sin IMO there is no reason what so ever
  to have the knowledge of sin and walk in the spirit.
  
  The knowledge of Law IMO there is no reason what so ever
  to have the knowledge of Law and walk in the spirit.
  

How do you mean?

God's Righteousness through Faith
21 But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed—attested by the Law and the Prophets[q] 22 —that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ,[r] to all who believe, since there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as a propitiation[t] through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. 26 God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.


Not Doing and Doing this is the game the enemy tries to get us to play
so we blink and look away from grace.

Why the strike-through text?

[jabcat]

What you say God commanded will happen is incorrect because it comes from an incorrect translation of the word of God. Nowhere in the word of God does it say "millions will burn forever."

The church has a history of torturing and killing people just for reading the word of God, and the church still considers it heresy to believe the word of God correctly translated rather than the doctrine of church tradition.

There is a common misconception about "hell," an Old English word translated from the Greek "hades" literally meaning "un-perceived," or "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of a dead soul, but the meaning of "hell" has been distorted by intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" twelve times in the King James Version and the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna" refers to the ravine of Hinnom, southwest of Jerusalem, used by the ancient Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god, and later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon.


God's ultimate plan is not to torture the majority of humanity in fire forever, and teachers of that false church doctrine should believe the word of God. Those who believe the word of God regarding the reconciliation of all are accused of heresy by the church. Heresy is simply a belief that does not conform to church doctrine, but church doctrine does not conform to the word of God. Even the corrupt translations used by the church contain the verse that says all will be reconciled through Christ. The church says most people will be tortured in hell fire forever, but the word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ so that God may be all in all.


"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all." (Romans 11:36)

I like that post.  Solid.

[micah7:9]

An excellent Truth :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

You know, if one truly loves other people, he cannot bare the thought of other precious humans being burned, even for a moment, let alone eternity!  That tells us something about people who believe in ET.  They either never really thought about hell, or they simply don't really love other people.  Perhaps, they don't really believe in hell either!

[jbertonbounds]

Sometimes it seems to me that the religious world is really close to embracing the truth about UR. :dunno2:

[marie glen]

I don't think all that many individual persons actually believe in a 'hell' but won't confess it, not wanting to be labeled a heretic! (etc.)

..it's my personal belief it's possible no humans will spend any time in the notorious LOF. :mock: :LH:
yep, that's what i believe! :icon_jokercolor: I think Judgment Day which follows Ressurection #2 will last a short age.. and can't help noticing how the notorious words "those not written in the Book of Life" (what requirement is it to have one's name written in the Book of Life? to "believe"?) - Who's not going to "believe" after experiencing being resurrected, and living thru and witnessing a long day of the examination of all things, all human history, etc..? I don't think many will be thAt stubborn..  just my :2c: :smile:

[eaglesway]

Well that would certainly be great, andd all right by me- but I don't see that in the word.....would mean a lot of wht is written was error IMO. Remember the LOF was created for the devil and his angels, yet Jesus clealry says, "Depart from me .....into the fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.


However, I think the LOF is immersion in the nlight of God, which is fire- to darkness, bringing up that which is hidden so that purging, cleansing, repentence, washing can occur-

I don t htink it is arbitrary punishment, I see it as functional correction. As far as who will "believe", when they awaken in his presence, perhaps we underestimate the degree to which people are willing to resist God and the degree to which He has dealt with them already in this life....


Sometimes it is hard to come clean, to let go of our desires and to fully embrace the light- but the one whose eyes are as flames of fire, the one before whom "all things are open", the one who has a sharp two edged sword proceeding from His mouth dividing asunder soul and spirit nd making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart-

He will certainly overcome judgment with mercy and deliver every soul out of darkness into light  :2c:

[OneThing]

Well that would certainly be great, andd all right by me- but I don't see that in the word.....would mean a lot of wht is written was error IMO. Remember the LOF was created for the devil and his angels, yet Jesus clealry says, "Depart from me .....into the fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.


However, I think the LOF is immersion in the nlight of God, which is fire- to darkness, bringing up that which is hidden so that purging, cleansing, repentence, washing can occur-

I don t htink it is arbitrary punishment, I see it as functional correction. As far as who will "believe", when they awaken in his presence, perhaps we underestimate the degree to which people are willing to resist God and the degree to which He has dealt with them already in this life....


Sometimes it is hard to come clean, to let go of our desires and to fully embrace the light- but the one whose eyes are as flames of fire, the one before whom "all things are open", the one who has a sharp two edged sword proceeding from His mouth dividing asunder soul and spirit nd making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart-

He will certainly overcome judgment with mercy and deliver every soul out of darkness into light  :2c:

Thank you eaglesway for such edifying, comforting words... I'm reminded of
1 Thess 5:8-11, 16-18 
but let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation... our Lord Jesus Christ who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another...

vv 16-18
Rejoice evermore.  Pray without ceasing.  In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

[jbertonbounds]

Well that would certainly be great, andd all right by me- but I don't see that in the word.....would mean a lot of wht is written was error IMO. Remember the LOF was created for the devil and his angels, yet Jesus clealry says, "Depart from me .....into the fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.


However, I think the LOF is immersion in the nlight of God, which is fire- to darkness, bringing up that which is hidden so that purging, cleansing, repentence, washing can occur-

I don t htink it is arbitrary punishment, I see it as functional correction. As far as who will "believe", when they awaken in his presence, perhaps we underestimate the degree to which people are willing to resist God and the degree to which He has dealt with them already in this life....


Sometimes it is hard to come clean, to let go of our desires and to fully embrace the light- but the one whose eyes are as flames of fire, the one before whom "all things are open", the one who has a sharp two edged sword proceeding from His mouth dividing asunder soul and spirit nd making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart-

He will certainly overcome judgment with mercy and deliver every soul out of darkness into light  :2c:

:iagree:  Wonderfully said.

[Captain.Theophilus]

If I'm wrong about UR then I'm already in Hell because I'm endlessly tormented by the torment that's happening to other fellow human beings, and even my own family. There is no rest for me if I'm wrong about UR.

[rosered]

If I'm wrong about UR then I'm already in Hell because I'm endlessly tormented by the torment that's happening to other fellow human beings, and even my own family. There is no rest for me if I'm wrong about UR.

God bless your heart ,

  same revelation for me just this week ,  how can we enjoy this salvation of all with so much evil and suffering   going on with everyone everywhere    ALL the time  , it is a torment
I must still be eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil  than , if I cannot get past   the torment  of  so much evil present ,    we need the TREE OF LIFE   to abound ,,,
I was reminded in Matt 5 to Love my enemies   , If Gods nature is to Love  His enemies
  them being the enemies of the Cross of Christ  !  that says it all dont it ?
  and to put all enemies under His feet /teaching    the gospel of the good news and  gospel of peace      ,   

  why does Love and God seem so obscure at times ?    must be  Like Jesus praying to the  Father  sweat as great drops of blood      striving against sin , Not Jesus  , he was sinless LAMB OF GOD but died for our sins   , but we also MUST take up our cross and follow Him     into perfection

Paul said he died daily   ,  his own life did not matter  , its was for the cause of Christ and the Cross  that he   kept  the faith and preached the gospel   , not knowing anything but Jesus Christ and Him crucified  :HeartThrob:


New International Version (©2011)
In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
New Living Translation (©2007)
After all, you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin.

English Standard Version (©2001)
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
In struggling against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

International Standard Version (©2012)
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

NET Bible (©2006)
You have not yet resisted to the point of bloodshed in your struggle against sin.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For you have not yet come as far as to blood in the struggle against sin.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
You struggle against sin, but your struggles haven't killed you.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

American King James Version
You have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin.

American Standard Version
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:

Douay-Rheims Bible
For you have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:

Darby Bible Translation
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, wrestling against sin.

English Revised Version
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:

Webster's Bible Translation
Ye have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin.

Weymouth New Testament
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted so as to endanger your lives;

World English Bible
You have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin;

Young's Literal Translation
Not yet unto blood did ye resist -- with the sin striving;


--
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 4. - Ye have net yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Here (as in 1 Corinthians 9:26) there is a transition of thought from a race to a combat. Your trials have not yet reached the point of dying in the good fight of faith, as has been the case with some of your brethren before you, who have followed their Leader to the end (cf. Hebrews 13:7).







 
God Disciplines His Sons
4You have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin. 5And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to children, My son, despise not you the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked of him: 6For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and whips every son whom he receives. ...

Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!



Hebrews 10:32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering.


Hebrews 10:33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated.


Hebrews 13:13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.

[micah7:9]

Amen rosered! Amen. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[jbertonbounds]

I have often wondered exactly what "he will put all enemies under his feet" means.  I used to think it simply meant he was going to stomp on them (ET thinking).  But now I believe it means something else.  Perhaps it means he will bring them into complete submission?  But still, I think it may be even deeper than that.  Any insights, anyone? :dontknow:

[rosered]

I have often wondered exactly what "he will put all enemies under his feet" means.  I used to think it simply meant he was going to stomp on them (ET thinking).  But now I believe it means something else.  Perhaps it means he will bring them into complete submission?  But still, I think it may be even deeper than that.  Any insights, anyone? :dontknow:

Hi Jbert   ,
   when you have peace  between    two sides , Jesus in the middle [Tree of Life ] , that would make for the teaching of peace , no more enemies right ?  showing both sides
  the tree of knowledge of good and evil  , the good is suffering at the evil and the evil learns from shame /as lawless   to be good  by chastening of the Lord   and turned
  Jesus says make the  tree good and its fruit good or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt a  Tree [ which we are what we eat]     a tree is KNOWN by its fruits 
we know that the Fruits of the Spirit    are Gal 5 ;22.23 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law  !!!   this is how the Lord turns His enemies into friends and brothers 
  we are to eat   His Body and drink His blood ,  that we might have LIFE in us   
hope this helps ,  just a simple way   that I can see it    better ,  the Holy Spirit is a teacher and comforter    ,  we need comforting because we are getting whoopins   teaching us right from  wrong .    just my  small opinion  brother J

[eaglesway]

Blessed upon the mountain tops are the feet of them who bring good news of glad tidings.

[rosered]

Blessed upon the mountain tops are the feet of them who bring good news of glad tidings.

:thumbsup:   good one Bro John , :HeartThrob:


the feet are a good study when you look into them 

And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. 
Luk 10:40   But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. 


Luk 10:41   And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 


Luk 10:42   But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. 


Mat 15:30 And great multitudes came unto him, having with them [those that were] lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: The Father loves ALL His children[creation][His Family] and there are some very bad children(for His purpose and His reason)
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

 :iagree:  Amen Micah !!    great scripts !! :HeartThrob:

Loving the unlovable  ! now thats HOLY !!

[SevanthDay]

I have often wondered exactly what "he will put all enemies under his feet" means.  I used to think it simply meant he was going to stomp on them (ET thinking).  But now I believe it means something else.  Perhaps it means he will bring them into complete submission?  But still, I think it may be even deeper than that.  Any insights, anyone? :dontknow:

Hello jbertonbounds:

Is not this referring to rulership (what is that?), authority (what is that?), and power (what is that?) and the last enemy is death (what is that?)

Now, the destruction and subduing of these enemies are the outworking of Jesus atonement through the Holy Spirit and we have to co-operate with the Holy Spirit in this. The ultimate outcome of Jesus atonement is the death of the old Adamic man and the birthing of the new Adamic man In Christ Jesus.

The old Adam is collective or corporate and it means all of humanity and they are all included in and with Jesus death, not just Jesus physical death but Jesus dying to the spiritual death that was in the world of humanity. That is what Jesus died to and humanity with him must die to that same death by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The new Adam is all of humanity which is collective or corporate are included in and with Jesus rising from the dead, not just with a new body(spiritual?) but with spiritual life with all its fulness in Christ.

Now, the new humanity is in Christ, not the physical Jesus who came into humanity but Jesus, the Christ, the anointed one or Messiah. Christ is a body of spiritual members joined to the head which is Jesus.

Those that have been called by God are being regenerate as a spiritual seed that will give birth in its proper season. The Spirit of God is nourishing this seed that has been sown into humanity. The first seed to bear fruit are the chosen of the called as they come into maturity and take part in the first spiritual harvest. It is this elect seed who are the first to overcome through the spirit of God which is the last enemy death.

However, spiritual death is in all of humanity and for the last enemy which is death that which is being destroyed, will be destroyed in all of humanity.

The first to partake of the destruction of this spiritual death is Jesus, the first born of all creation.

Col 1:17  And, he, is before all, and, they all, in him, hold together;
Col 1:18  And, he, is the head of the body, the assembly, Who is the beginning, Firstborn from among the dead, in order that, he, might become, in all things, himself, pre-eminent;—
Col 1:19  Because, in him, was all the fullness well pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20  And, through him, fully to reconcile all things unto him, making peace through the blood of his cross,—through him—whether the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens;

There is much more to this but want to keep the post short but also, consider these scriptures:

1Co 15:22  For, just as, in the Adam, all die, so, also, in the Christ, shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But, each, in his own rank:—A firstfruit, Christ, after that, they who are the Christ's, in his presence,
1Co 15:24  Afterwards, the end—whensoever he delivereth up the kingdom unto his God and Father, whensoever he shall bring to nought all rule and all authority and power;
1Co 15:25  For he must needs reign, until he shall put all his enemies under his feet:
1Co 15:26  As a last enemy, death, is to be destroyed;
1Co 15:27  For—He put, all things, in subjection under his feet. But, whensoever it shall be said—all things are in subjection!—it is evident that it means,—Except him who did put into subjection, unto him, the all things—
1Co 15:28  But whensoever have been put into subjection, unto him, the all things, then, the Son himself, also shall be put in subjection unto him who put in subjection, unto him, the all things,—that, God, may be, all things in all.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[eaglesway]

:dsunny: The Father loves ALL His children[creation][His Family] and there are some very bad children(for His purpose and His reason)
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.  :HeartThrob:

The mark of the call of the upward call in Christ Jesus, ya think?  :goodpost:

[shawn]

If we all were perfect, already righteous...we would love each other perfectly...right?  Maybe not.  By the verses you all are discussing in Matthew, it is of great value to love those who are our enemies, those who are difficult to love.  How could we learn to love on this level, if everyone was perfect, loveable, set apart and holy?  Those made for common purpose, teach the elect how to love as Christ loves...as God loves.  How can you learn this without those made for destruction?  They serve a distinct purpose in the plans of God.  And when we come into our fullness in Christ, I believe our purpose will be as agents of reconciliation, helping pull those living in death and destruction out of Gehenna into the gates of the Kingdom of God.

[WhiteWings]

Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?

1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?

2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?

3. What if God really is like this?

4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?

All those questions are valid for every doctrine. Many protestants believe Catholics go to hell for worshipping Mary for example.

But isn't the real saving thing professing Jesus is Lord, Saviour and King?
If a UR person does that and is wrong about UR will he be saved on basis of believing Jesus or rejected because he was wrong at several/many things?

[mplsfitter539]

Hi peeps, this is more first post here.
I'm new to this "Jesus saves all" doctrine, and I want to keep moving forward but still have some burning questions, maybe some of you can help me?

1. What if Satan the angel of light has blinded you to love the world more than following and believing what God has commanded will happen? What if you are simply making God in your image because you love your own humans more than you love the Lord? What if you really can't handle the truth that the sad fact may be that millions will burn forever?

2. What if this is Gods plan? If you were to die and God revealed to you that there is an eternal hell, will you stop loving God?

3. What if God really is like this?

4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray?

All those questions are valid for every doctrine. May protestants believe Catholics go to hell for worshipping Mary for example.

But isn't the real saving thing professing Jesus is Lord, Saviour and King?
If a UR person does that and is wrong about UR will he be saved on basis of believing Jesus or rejected because he was wrong at several/many things?

All will believe weather on this side of the grave or the other side because the blood of Yashua covers all sin and not one of these little ones will be lost.

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord isn't slow to do what he promised, as some people think. Rather, he is patient for your sake. He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to him and change the way they think and act.

Yahweh always gets what He wants or He is a failure.

[JulieTang84]

 :iagree: I would have to have a heart to heart with Father and remind him that love is what love does :girlheart: