We all deserve Hell

[Livelystone]

Agree Zeek.  Paul said he constantly did what he didn't want, and vice versa.  He talked about the law of sin in his flesh.  He also indicated he would be (and needed to be) delivered from that at some point in the future.  However, on the other hand, it seems to me he didn't believe all his shortcoming (sin) was laid to his account [?] (not saying I fully understand this), as he said it was no longer him that sinned, but the sin that dwelled in him.  Although we are all on varying levels of growth;  some much more mature than others, some flat out carnal;  I seriously doubt any of us have passed the Apostle Paul in our maturity, and all still have much room for growth.  IMO, even though I often may not recognize it, the shortcomings and need for mercy and growth are always present;  and God is constantly working His renewal through me (us) to bring me (us) where I (we) need to be.  And apparently some of us won't get there in this lifetime, and will be saved through destruction.  I'm sure, best to be obedient now.

Good post  :thumbsup:

How many times have I come to the point "oh wretched man that I am" unable to apprehend who has apprehended me.

the shortcomings and need for mercy and growth are always present;  and God is constantly working His renewal through me

Amen......... so I have prayed that it is good that I am afflicted even though the flames affliction are not fun. Because of my weakness I understand that the strength that is needed is not mine but His. Rather than fool myself thinking that I can overcome I pray to be able to love as He so loved the world.

Jn. 3:16 does not say how that He loved the world so much but stated the manner "so" as to how that He loves the way that He does. This is the difference (IMO) between love and charity because with the knowledge of how all have been made subject to vanity and that all are gripped with the inability to produce as He produces consequently rather than condemn we have compassion for those whom are in bondage to sin. Having one time been in bondage ourselves to sin we turn the other cheek and forgive the world for its sins just He does for it and for us.

However because we are sinned against by persons who UNKNOWINGLY fight against principalities , we appear on their behalf as intercessors so that mercy and truth kiss may each other. Then while the presence of the Lord descends upon those who have sinned the process starts of passing from condemnation of the law to giving out a portion of grace, faith that is also a noun and not just a verb appears within us and we then become "in Christ" prepared by Him to bring forth good works to a world that awaits our manifestation

I do believe this is how we become "after melchezedec". Because we went  into the presence of the Lord for our own sins we are to also go 'back" a second time for the sins of others cleansing us of the law of sin so that we too may then appear without sin.

Hbr 9:28    So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation..

Hope nobody took offense to that....... last time I said that we had go "back" for a second helping of grace to be complete some folks got upset.

Blessings

Doug

[Raggedy Anne]

I think we all have our part in hell which is here in this mortal realm.    We are appointed to suffer and to die according to the scriptures.  To first bear the image of the earthly, then the heavenly.   If we are sanctified, we will do all we can to avoid offending others who are made in God's image and will seek peace (not war) with all people.  I don't think we have to deny that this world is a hellish place though.

Anne

[jabcat]

Hope nobody took offense to that....... last time I said that we had go "back" for a second helping of grace to be complete some folks got upset.

Blessings

Doug

Yeah, I'm really mad!   :angry1:

Just kidding...I need grace and mercy every minute of every day  :thumbsup:.  (thanks)

[Raggedy Anne]

My point is that Jesus came into this world to conquer death by dying.  I know it is natural to shrink from death, but I don't think it is scriptural/healthy.

LUKE - chapter 24

The Road to Emmaus

13 And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 And they were talking with each other about all these things which had taken place. 15 While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. 16 But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. 17 And He said to them, "What are these words that you are exchanging with one another as you are walking?" And they stood still, looking sad. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, "Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?" 19 And He said to them, "What things?" And they said to Him, "The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. 21 "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened. 22 "But also some women among us amazed us. When they were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive. 24 "Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see." 25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.  28 And they approached the village where they were going, and He acted as though He were going farther. 29 But they urged Him, saying, "Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over." So He went in to stay with them. 30 When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight. 32 They said to one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?" 33 And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven and those who were with them, 34 saying, "The Lord has really risen and has appeared to Simon." 35 They began to relate their experiences on the road and how He was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread.

[Raggedy Anne]

There used to be hymns sung about embracing death with gladness....
http://nethymnal.org/htm/w/s/w/wswsaf2d.htm

Why should we start and fear to die?
What tim'rous worms we mortals are!
Death is the gate of endless joy,
And yet we dread to enter there.

The pains, the groans, the dying strife,
Fright our approaching souls away;
Still we shrink back again to life,
Fond of our prison and our clay.

O, if my Lord would come and meet,
My soul should stretch her wings in haste,
Fly fearless through death's iron gate,
Nor feel the terrors as she passed.

Jesus can make a dying bed
Feel soft as downy pillows are,
While on His breast I lean my head,
And breathe my life out sweetly there.

[Redlettervoice]

I think we all have our part in hell which is here in this mortal realm.    We are appointed to suffer and to die according to the scriptures.  To first bear the image of the earthly, then the heavenly.   If we are sanctified, we will do all we can to avoid offending others who are made in God's image and will seek peace (not war) with all people.  I don't think we have to deny that this world is a hellish place though.

Anne

Good understanding!Yea! Anne! So simple, this is the commandment
I have in the beginning. Love God and Love your neighbor as
yourself. 

[Livelystone]

My point is that Jesus came into this world to conquer death by dying.  I know it is natural to shrink from death, but I don't think it is scriptural/healthy.

I agree and there is much way of scripture to support your opinion

Paul and the others died daily so that Christ would live and rule within them.

There are two Adams in those who have followed Jesus to the Cross.......... anytime that we decide to live again and remove ourselves from the Cross we put Him back up on it.

For us to be resurrected we have to take up our Cross and follow Him to the Promise land that is on the other side of the Jordan.... the river of death.

We were not told to go around and bypass the Cross but to follow Him

1Cr 15:35    But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1Cr 15:36    [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Doug....He spoke to me one day and told me the manifestation of the Omega (Christ one with His body, a many-membered body) and the Alpha (Christ one with His body from the foundation of the world, a many-membered body), were one and the same. The harvest is the same as the Seed that was planted.

And Zeek....can I expound a little on what He made life in me with that scripture?

Put another way to aid clarity, the evidence (temporal) is what you had faith to MANIFEST thru and FROM the realm of the Spirit (eternal). Yet it is not of ourselves, for He gives the gift of faith to manifest it.

This is the principle for healing, miracles, gifts, natural provisions, even manifesting Christ in the fullness. It is not of ourselves, lest any man should boast. He gives every man a measure of faith to receive Him and then builds up that initial faith to make it grow.

This is why Christ in us is the hope of glory (manifestation), and why us in Christ builds up our most holy faith, ie. praying IN the Holy Ghost (which is the Spirit of the risen Christ). Blessings....

[Tim B]

You know, I think I'd be hard pressed to say that anybody deserves Hell. After all, God isn't morally obligated to send anybody to Hell, as he was not morally obligated to make man in the first place. In fact, I would say that God is not morally obligated to do anything. I believe he does what he does because he is Good, not because he's constrained by some eternal moral law that God is subject to. In that sense, when people say that God is obligated to send people to Hell because of his justice they simply do not understand that if that were true then God would be subject to another Law besides his Will, meaning, essentially, that he ISN'T the supreme power in the universe. We're only deserving as much punishment as GOD SEES FIT TO PUNISH US FOR OUR WRONG DOINGS. He can have as much mercy on us as he wishes and he would commit no wrong if he chose not to punish us. He sets up the rules. Rules don't set him up. The idea that we deserve eternal punishment because we committed sin against an eternal being is a joke. That's not to say that God does not punish us, just that God has the moral card deck in his hand, as opposed to the other way around.

I could be a bit off here, but if any wisdom runs through that post, thank God.  :bigGrin:

[Doc]

Once again, which hell? We were all deserving of death (state of death, hades), but Jesus took care of that problem by tasting that death for every man.

[Tim B]

Once again, which hell? We were all deserving of death (state of death, hades), but Jesus took care of that problem by tasting that death for every man.

Not sure if you were replying to my post or not, but I was thinking of the general "Christian" version of "hell": eternal torment in fire/eternal conscious torment.

[Doc]

Once again, which hell? We were all deserving of death (state of death, hades), but Jesus took care of that problem by tasting that death for every man.

Not sure if you were replying to my post or not, but I was thinking of the general "Christian" version of "hell": eternal torment in fire/eternal conscious torment.

Which is precisely the point of my question. They don't know what (the) "hell" they're talking about.

So, ask them; "to which "hell" are you referring, Gehenna, Tartarus or Hades?" Be prepared for the blank stare...

[sparrow]

There used to be hymns sung about embracing death with gladness....
http://nethymnal.org/htm/w/s/w/wswsaf2d.htm

Why should we start and fear to die?
What tim'rous worms we mortals are!
Death is the gate of endless joy,
And yet we dread to enter there.

The pains, the groans, the dying strife,
Fright our approaching souls away;
Still we shrink back again to life,
Fond of our prison and our clay.

O, if my Lord would come and meet,
My soul should stretch her wings in haste,
Fly fearless through death's iron gate,
Nor feel the terrors as she passed.

Jesus can make a dying bed
Feel soft as downy pillows are,
While on His breast I lean my head,
And breathe my life out sweetly there.

Amen, sista.

[Redlettervoice]

You are the Work of His Hands, the master potter, for whom
He "made" a sabbath.

If He designed a sabbath for you, that means He didn't make
YOU for the sabbath.

"He" must not think of you as worthy of hell.

Oh, what LOVE He has revealed to us.

[Zeek]

You are the Work of His Hands, the master potter, for whom
He "made" a sabbath.

If He designed a sabbath for you, that means He didn't make
YOU for the sabbath.

"He" must not think of you as worthy of hell.

Oh, what LOVE He has revealed to us.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Livelystone]

He thought us "worthy" to suffer and die for

[Tim B]

Once again, which hell? We were all deserving of death (state of death, hades), but Jesus took care of that problem by tasting that death for every man.

Not sure if you were replying to my post or not, but I was thinking of the general "Christian" version of "hell": eternal torment in fire/eternal conscious torment.

Which is precisely the point of my question. They don't know what (the) "hell" they're talking about.

So, ask them; "to which "hell" are you referring, Gehenna, Tartarus or Hades?" Be prepared for the blank stare...

Haha, that's awesome! I should totally do that xD

[Livelystone]

Most of this makes sense, except for the part where you say that God intended for us to be sinners so we could experience sin and evil. I don't believe this at all. God's intention was for us to be perfect. It is us who makes the choice not to be.

Back before the foundations of the world were made the Morning Stars heard of a plan that caused them all to leap for joy. (Job 38:7)

Personally I believe that is when God shared His plan with them for man and what it would accomplish.

That He would create a perfect place with perfect people and a place that by law evil would show up. Just like the universal rule of law governing gravity that holds it all together so is the law of opposites such as poles or magnets. Paul understood this and it allowed him to say that when he would do good evil was always present......... so way back in the garden that was created perfect by law evil appeared. However God had already given the commandment that "thou shalt not" and consequently....... sin took on death.!!!

Think about that for a moment.............. EVIL THAT BECAME SIN TOOK ON DEATH.!!!............... PRAISE THE LORD AND LET ME SAY AGAIN........... EVIL THAT BECAME SIN TOOK ON DEATH !!!

Now you can see why the Morning Stars jumped for joy........ and why the suffering we endure for a season is nothing compared to the joy when we arrive at a time in existence where there is no sin and no evil

Because on a place called earth evil became sin that consequently took on death. Then God sent His Son to redeem us from the state of death that we were born into.

We serve an awesome God whose ways are not our ways but are not beyond being found out by those who seek to know Him.

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Doug, I've had a long day and I'm tired, and I can just tell there is a really profound point here in what you said, but it's just not "hitting" me  :mblush:.......and I really WANT it to "hit" me. Could you break the part in bold down more somehow for me? Thanks......Blessings....

[Livelystone]

:cloud9: Doug, I've had a long day and I'm tired, and I can just tell there is a really profound point here in what you said, but it's just not "hitting" me  :mblush:.......and I really WANT it to "hit" me. Could you break the part in bold down more somehow for me? Thanks......Blessings....

In your case I do not feel that anything has to be explained today that will not become revealed to you tomorrow but because you asked.........

By creating a place where evil became sin that took on death this earth has become the burial ground for all sin and evil...... Praise God.

It was the only way where a place could be provided for all eternity where sin and evil would never be able to show up at because by law it had to show up wherever good existed that was first on earth but then because it dies here, that automactically created a place where sin will not show up because it died after it came here to earth........ sorry satan but the buck stope here LOL.

But because of Christ we get to go that place that is a place that consist only of righteousness because no sin will ever enter in there.

Going beyond that when Jesus said that He went to prepare a place where we could be together He has come into the hearts of sinful men to prepare to a place that has already been condemned to death. People wonder why God would allow so much evil to exist on earth but the answer is simple....... the earth through the spirits and souls of man that have the serpent seed have become the kingdoms of Satan given to him by God. However man is then 'saved: through being given the Holy Spirit that will ascend unto heaven because that is where it came from versus the first Adam who was the "earthly spirit of man with the serpent seed" that in man will die while we go on to life eternal via the Holy Spirit that is the free gift of salvation.

I find it very ironic that that the church and in particular the UR movement that puts down the law so badly will in the end be saved by the same law that they put down.......... but God does have a way of humbling the proud

Blessings

Doug

[jabcat]

.... the earth through the spirits and souls of man that have the serpent seed have become the kingdoms of Satan given to him by God. However man is then 'saved:

I find it very ironic that that the church and in particular the UR movement that puts down the law so badly will in the end be saved by the same law that they put down.......... but God does have a way of humbling the proud

Doug

Hi Doug...is the following connected at all with your beliefs on this?  If not, or if different somehow, would you care to clarify?  Some discussion here to clarify would probably be appropriate connected to your last post, but if it is a big topic, then we can split it to another thread if need be to keep from hijacking this one.    Thanks, James.

From Wikipedia;  "Serpent seed, dual seed or two-seedline is a controversial minority teaching in Christianity (and rarely Judaism) that the serpent in the Garden of Eden had sexual intercourse with Eve, and that Cain was the offspring of the union. This differs from the more common religious belief that Cain was the son of Adam and Eve (the first humans). Today it is often associated with parts of the Christian Identity movement holding that Jews are the descendants of Cain and thus the serpent.[1][2] The idea has also existed in several other contexts, and major proponents include Daniel Parker (1781-1844),[3] William M. Branham (1909-1967)[4] and Arnold Murray.[5]

And this;  "God made Adam a perfect man, and the name God gave to him--"Adam"--is a word which means "the man who blushes" or "the red blushing one."

"Adam" refers to the rosy wine red mark of God's blood and His love for Adam which was always placed only upon the reddening faces of Adam's true sons to differentiate Adam from all of the other people on Earth--who are the people of Satan.

The only people in the world who blush are the Northern European People, for they are the only people true to Adam's seedline and to no others."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks Doug. I read it, but I'm going to re-read it tomorrow when I'm hopefully, a little more "with it". Blessings....

[jabcat]

P.S.  I'm no expert on this topic (Adam's race, Serpent Seed Doctrine) etc., haven't really studied it a lot, so I don't really have a lot of info/insight on it.  Seems a good topic/discussion though.

[Livelystone]

Hi jabcat

I could have left the term of the serpent seed out of my post and still given the same message....... sorry about deviating from the OP

I do not buy into the definition you shared of the doctrine of the serpent seed yet it is still an important part of the knowledge that is tied into many other things (and because many folks are uncomfortable with it) ...... such as why John said that any man who says he has no sin is a liar so If you would like to start a thread on it we can discuss it there and not hijack this thread

But tomorrow would be a better time for me.

Blessings

Doug

[jabcat]

OK, I'll think about it, and if you have some further thoughts maybe you can go ahead and jump on it first.  We'll see, thanks.