Why “Saved” as opposed to “Healed/Made Whole”?

[Merks]

Since my awakening to the truth of the ultimate reconciliation of all mankind and the false teaching of hell, I have been questioning the use of the word "saved" in most contextual applications. My stirring resulted from reading Isaiah 53:5 where we are told ... by His stripes we are "healed" (Strong's H7495). The word used there indicates healing and being made "whole." Interestingly, so does the word for "saved" in the NT (Strong's G4982).

I am not saying the word should never be translated "saved" nor am I saying that it is never correctly translated "made whole" but is seems to me the idea of hell is unnecessarily propagated by the overuse of the word saved. I am not a very intellectually gifted individual but I am prone to be rather contemplative. I am throwing this out there for discussion and have just started to begin the process of reviewing the Scriptures where these words are used. I am slow at reading and very often my retention of subject matter is rather fleeting, thus causing me to reread passages again and again.

Anyway, I hope you receive these thoughts with the understanding I have asked this question in the hope of discovery and not intended to be devisive or malice driven.

Blessing,
Merks

[MusicLover123]

What about "saved" as in made complete/new?

[GodIsLove]

I often dislike the word saved.

It is used by some to form barriers and judge "he isn't saved."

It also is in the past tense and makes people complacent if they think the are "saved" as if there's nothing left to do, when in my opinion it's a process of discerning and following and obeying God's will to be perfected.

It also implies hell exists aka "saved from hell."

I do like the idea that it's meaning is also healed.

I do believe it is a process and not an event. The event is the decision to turn to God and rely on him instead of our own carnal natures, but after that decision we need to learn how to follow, how to obey, how to discern, and what God's will is. We need to experience it again and again to trust him in all things and to have the mind of God.

You can go to an online bible or download an app and search "saved" and copy and paste the verses into a file, I do it in "notes" on my iPad or iPhone, then at least you have the verses all in one place to compare and see context and then look at interlinears to see if they are all the same word translated. 

I have a terrible memory for bible verses, I always remember a few words paraphrased and can't rememrb what book most of the time, for example I'll know it's in one of Paul's letters but not which one or its in the OT versus NT...so I just do a search in an online bible and find it. I sometimes read my own Tentmaker posts months later and I'm like wow I forgot that I wrote all that and I forgot those verses. I'll blame it on my three young kids robbing me of my brain cells  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

Hi merks.  I think you are right, it is used various ways.  I personally think what's important is context (some don't like that word) so I'll also say "how" it used and in what situation (in other words, context  :laughing7:). 

I believe sometimes it may mean heal, other times save (as in, as I believe the scriptures clearly teach, being brought to faith in Jesus as Savior, passing from death to life, being given the right to be called a child of God (Jn. 1:12).  An event we can be sure of, the salvation of the spirit through faith in Christ.  Then it's growth from there - further healing/saving.    Other times, I suspect the meanings overlap - meaning both - healing and salvation.  in a very real sense, salvation is [spiritual] healing.

Here is what I believe is a very useful reference to the use of sozo and its derivatives.

   https://www.logosapostolic.org/greek-word-studies/4982-sozo-save.htm

[jabcat]

I too believe we need to keep being healed/made whole.  Even though our spirit is initially saved/redeemed/the new has come with initial salvation, there is still much to be gained or lost through obedience and seeking, or rebellion and running.  I've come to believe that a child in the family can be a prodigal - although still a child, in need of returning to fellowship/functioning within the family [body].  Part of that "process" that GIL mentions, after one has come to initial faith in Christ.

My thought is, even though  ET proponents believe being saved (brought to faith in Christ as Savior, spiritually healed) keeps one from going to eternal torment, the Bible still teaches it, rightly divided.   Also, similar to predestination and election.  Calvinists teach that it means everyone else goes to eternal torment, but the Bible still teaches it, rightly divided.   I believe we just have to, with the help of the Holy Spirit, correctly divide it.

I believe scripture teaches a time for each, when the knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus - salvation - being saved.  But that it also teaches healing,, deliverance, growing in faith and knowledge, obedience, good fruit, etc..."the walk" ("process" - or being processed :).  Works saved or lost/remain or burned as chaff.  I didn't always, but recently understand it as saved, being saved, will be saved.  I suggest there are scriptures to support each of the following, where they reconcile and don't contradict.  I.e.,  saved (spirit redeemed upon faith in Christ as Savior - brought into the body/family, "made new");  being saved (obedience, loss/reward, growing in grace and knowledge); will be saved (the redemption of our body, mortality taking on immortality).  And IMO, that ALL involves healing.    So again, I personally believe the way to understand it is of course Spirit guidance/revelation, but also how and when it is used.  :)

[jabcat]

What about "saved" as in made complete/new?

Amen.   "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, the new has come into being." 2 Cor. 5:17  :dsunny:

death>life>not under judgment Jn. 5:24

.."right to be called children of God" Jn. 1:12 

:bowing:

[GodIsLove]

Yes jabcat, I agree that it's both an event and a process and that the timing is different for each of us, some sooner and some later.

I heard once that saved can also mean saved from sin in that sin no longer controls us in the same way. This I believe is because we are listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit.

I guess when I opened my post with disliking the word saved it was because I have encountered people who use it with a certain connotation like I was trying to convey in the post.

I tend to like to say Christian, follower of Christ, etc to explain it, as that to me conveys the ongoing aspect versus the past tense saved. Saved reminds me of putting something away for later, of kicking back and relaxing, instead of actively pressing in, enduring, seeking, praying, responding, learning and growing in Christ. I like the reference to the body that you mention, because the body is active.  I believe it's a back forth, he calls, we answer, we seek, he responds.

[jabcat]

I've been making edits to my post as I re-think some things and hopefully find better ways to say it :)

I like the clarification you make, that it's both, event and process.  I saw that you really said that in your first post, it's just clearer in your next post.   :thumbsup:

Here's the thing.  I think we can pervert about anything.  Even though I believe there is a specific event to "kick things off" - and that it's actually miraculous, when one passes from death to life/becomes a part of the family/body, I still believe in the ongoing process, or being continuously processed.  I just don't think the first part (becoming a child of God through being given faith in Christ as Savior) can be taken away ("the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable").  However, I believe we can make a mess of things if we don't "walk the walk" following Him, being obedient, and end up in the pigpen.  Still a child of the Father, but smelling like a hog.  I believe there are scriptures that teach such a one will be "saved as by fire", i.e., maybe the only thing left standing is the spirit that's been reborn, but many/all other works and attributes will be burned as chaff.  Paul talks about that.  As for the "perversion of about anything", many people (mainly various groups of Baptists and Presbyterians) believe what I do about initial salvation - but there are individuals within those groups that pervert it (IMO).  I.e., they say (like you're alluding to) "I'm saved, so I can do what I want..or nothing at all, except please my flesh.  And I'm still saved".  But what I believe they're missing is, the "being saved" part of what I mentioned before..the walk, obedience, growing, becoming more like Him, etc., etc....And it's those kinds of quirks that can leave a bad taste in one's mouth about it.."because they're that way, then I can't believe _______".    That's why I think to Merk's initial salvo, I think it's important to do the "just because _____ perverts it, doesn't mean the scriptures don't still teach certain things".  We just have to rightly divide it, understand it in light of ultimate reconciliation - i.e., what the scriptures REALLY teach about it, and not as a reaction to some other group's misrepresentation.   :2c:

[jabcat]

I heard once that saved can also mean saved from sin in that sin no longer controls us in the same way. This I believe is because we are listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit.

I like that..as well as, He now dwells in us, that "newness".  Even though we still fight sin nature, we also have a new nature.  And I believe that new nature can no longer be comfortable with un-confessed, un-cared-about sin.  They don't co-exist well.  So we keep being drawn back to close fellowship and obedience. 

I guess when I opened my post with disliking the word saved it was because I have encountered people who use it with a certain connotation like I was trying to convey in the post.

^ The perversion I mentioned in the last post - problem is, IMO, "we" are good at perverting things, so we may be helped by being careful in our reaction when someone/we/I may do it.   :2c:

I tend to like to say Christian, follower of Christ, ...pressing in, enduring, seeking, praying, responding, learning and growing in Christ.

Even though I personally think 'saved' is a perfectly good description - especially if understood/placed in its (what I consider :)  proper context and meaning - I still probably tend to use the same phraseology too more myself...believer, Christian, follower of Christ.. :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

believer, Christian, follower of Christ..

But then I realize this issue too...sometimes I AM more comfortable with "saved", as in, "saved by grace".  Because I usually, by far, don't believe I'm really much of a "follower of Christ".  You know?  Grace...

[Dandelion]

I kinda' like the word "SAVED".

We are saved from so many things: from being 'alone' out here, without the Holy Spirit to guide us; from being afraid, because we know that God is with us; from the snares of this world...we have his Holy Word to explain to us; from not having a purpose or goal in life..... from our own self-directed lives into His marvelous Light; from battling evil spirits, without the full armor of God; saved from not knowing who we are; saved from wondering what will happen to us when we die, and so on. We know we exist in God, Himself.....in Him we live and move and have our being.

We are saved from not having a Savior, who gave His life so we could have life, everlasting.

We are saved from unforgiveness, lust, coveting, lies, and so on.

We have been bought at a price, Slaves, to our own sinfulness and the powers of evil, who are now FREE PEOPLE. Our freedom was bought by the one who made us.

Yes, I love the meaning of saved.

And, yes, jabcat, 'saved by grace', is a beautiful concept to cling to.

I don't believe I will be whole, or healed, until I am with God in Heaven, forever. To me, these terms imply more of a completeness. But, Jesus death on the cross has saved us. We are awaiting the completion of the process, in Heaven. That is how I see it.

But, I do feel very saved!

D.

[marie glen]

I have to think we are saved from death. The wages of sin/missing the mark, etc, is death. And saved from its cause, missing the mark, ie, imperfection. I have to think God is Life, itself.. the vitality his spirit.. and we know He "is perfect". So imperfection = death.

"The soul that sins shall die" .."God alone is immortal".. Until He is all in all? Or that is believers "put on immortality at His return" and beginning of His long 2nd advent.. of "the thousand years" .."the judgment" until "the Son submits all things to the Father" as in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 "as through Adam all die, all through Christ sshall live but each in their own order, Christ the Firstfruits, those that are Christ's at His coming, and the end when He submits all to the Father that God may be all in all" - direct correlation to Revelation chapter 21, especially 1-5 (Trumpets -> Tabernacles)
:gsmile:

[Merks]

Good morning all ... So many good thoughts communicated here and I would like to reiterate I am not totally opposed to the word "saved." But I really think it falls short in communicating the significance of Christ's sacrifice. I am still learning and will never realize the completeness of His sacrifice until all has been brought to pass.

Perhaps my dissatisfaction with the word comes from the direct connection it has with hell. Orthodoxy has given the idea of salvation from hell the seat of supremacy in the value of The Gospel. I have asked a few people I love, who still maintain the orthodox view of hell, "what is Christianity without hell?" They just look at me with a blank stare as the thought is inconceivable.

The idea of healing and being made whole also can be looked at as a process and an event. It has been some time but I remember the point being made in my Greek class that "salvation is linear in nature and also complete. Because of the tense used in reference to the act of salvation it was accomplished in the past with a finished view in the future.

Healing is also progressive by nature and involves a view to return to wholeness. This,it seems to me, also fits the idea of total reconciliation and our completeness in becoming one with the Father as the Son is one with the Father (John 17). We could say "... by Grace are you being healed/made whole through faith ..." Grace, as I understand it, is the activity of God, working in our lives accomplishing the will and purpose of God and bringing to pass all He has decreed will happen.

It's interesting ... Ever since God has opened my understanding to the illegitimacy or fabrication of the doctrine of hell and the truth of the ultimate reconciliation of all mankind my faith in God has strengthened and my love for Him has grown although my trust in the interpretive process of the Scriptures has weakened. Please note, I did not say my trust in the Scriptures has weakened but rather the interpretation of them.

This morning I was reading Isaiah 53 and just randomly began to look up various words and was surprised at the variety of choices one has to choose from concerning the application of the meaning of various words. It made me realize the selection of a specific word in an application of meaning can greatly be impacted by ones current view of God and life.

I laughed out loud as I thought of how I used to look at Theology. Systematic theology was, in my mind, an absolute necessity to a "proper understanding" of God. Yet, it was the vary act of systemitizing God that drove me nuts because nothing seemed to fit. Then I laughed even more as I viewed myself with this magnifying glass looking intently through it as I studied God. Sometimes I wonder. Am I reading the owners manual when I have the Designer abiding with me?  :laugh:

I think the authors of the Westminster Confession did get it right when they penned the words "the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever!"

Blessings, Merks

[MusicLover123]

1Co 15:18  Then they also which are fallen asleepG2837 in Christ are perished. 

G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
Total KJV occurrences: 18

G2749
κεῖμαι
keimai
ki'-mahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to lie outstretched (literally or figuratively): - be (appointed, laid up, made, set), lay, lie. Compare G5087.
Total KJV occurrences: 26

Look how the CLV translates it:

1Co 15:18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished.

Repose
- a state of rest, sleep, or tranquility.
- be lying, situated, or kept in a particular place.

I also just realized, isn't being asleep resting? Don't we rest in the peace of God now? Do we have to be unconscious to rest in the peace of God?

The Jonathon Mitchell version:

1Co 15:18  Consequently, also, those falling asleep within the midst of and in union with Christ lose themselves (or: loose-away and destroy themselves).

1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 

Eph 2:8  for by grace you are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift

Well, that is a tough one. Are we saved now, saved in the future, saved now and in the future, or something else?

Rom 8:1  There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit

Does it say "There will be no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus?" No, it says now there is no condemnation.

Rom 8:2  for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the lawG3551 of the sin and of the death

G3551
νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.
Total KJV occurrences: 197

So, is it fair to say that we are set free from death too? If we are, then why would those in Christ Jesus die when they die?

It is like saying "Oh, you don't die, you pass away." Well, presuming if dying means unconsciousness, they are the same thing, right? So it makes no sense to use to die, but in two different ways. As I noted above, I think there actually may be a difference between those who die in their sins and those who fall asleep in Jesus.

[MusicLover123]

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Strong's uses the same Greek word for both the bolded parts. So, are they talking about the same thing?

CLV 2Co 5:17 So that, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the primitive passed by. Lo! there has come new!

ISV 2Co 5:17  Therefore, if anyone is in the Messiah, he is a new creation. Old things have disappeared, and—look!—all things have become new! 

JM-NT 2Co 5:17  So that if (or: since) anyone [is] within Christ ([the] Anointed One), [there is] a new (of different kind, character and quality) creation (framing; founding; act of creation): the original things (the beginning [situations]; the archaic and primitive things) passed by (went to the side).  Consider!  New things have come into existence (have been birthed; or: It has become new things; or: He has been birthed and now exists being ones of a different kind, character and quality).

Lamsa NT 2Co 5:17  Whoever from now on is a follower of Christ, is a new creation: old things have passed away; (I just realized I put a Aramaic translation in my Esword too! :laugh:)

Rotherham 2Co 5:17  On the contrary, now, no longer, are we gaining it. So that, if any one is in Christ, there is a new creation! the old things, have passed away,—Lo! they have become new!

TCNT 2Co 5:17  Therefore, if any one is in union with Christ, he is a new being! His old life has passed away; a new life has begun!

YLT 2Co 5:17  so that if any one is in Christ— he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things. 

So, is the passing away of old things "being saved?"

[jabcat]

Reading replies last night and today, and thinking it through, much is being addressed.  I really think being saved/healed is multiple things.  I don't believe the terms are in opposition, I believe they often mean the same thing, or at least overlap/go together.  I believe the words saved and healed are perfect and appropriate, depending on their usage and understanding of what is being addressed - IMO.

Just a few thoughts that come to mind as to being saved, spiritually healed, that have nothing to do with eternal torment.  There are many more;

passing from death to life     "whosever believes in Him will not perish"  Jn 3:16 ..."Whosoever Lives and Believes in Me Shall Never Die. Do you believe this?" Jn. 11:25
   
becoming a child of God (entering the family/body)  I Jn 1:12

being saved from, as GIL indicated, the control of sin  "live worthy of the high calling" Eph 4:1  "He will save His people from their sins"  Mthw 1:21

[MusicLover123]

Thanks Jab. Another thing, I think, came to me. When it says in John 3:16, those believing in the Son shall not perish, in Corinthians verse I put earlier, if Christ was not raised(He was) those in Him would perish. If sleeping means they're dead, would it make sense for those already dead to die?

To add to the discussion, lots of verses in more literal translations have "believing" instead of believe/believed. Is that significant?

[jabcat]

When it says in John 3:16, those believing in the Son shall not perish, in Corinthians verse I put earlier, if Christ was not raised(He was) those in Him would perish. If sleeping means they're dead, would it make sense for those already dead to die?

I've wondered the same thing, if those before the cross wouldn't be resurrected.  However, I just remembered the issue when Jesus was walking the earth where some didn't believe in the resurrection, and that was a big deal.  So I think that shoots a hole in that theory.  Maybe they weren't spiritually raised yet..yet Jesus went and preached to those in prison and led them from their captivity.  I think there's much to explore, understand, and probably still some won't understand, until then.

I've been thinking, that we "mess up" perfectly good words and phrases the Bible uses (like 'saved') by our own religion, carnality, etc., which then unfortunately makes us hesitant to use them :(  because their common understanding gets "twisted".   :2c:

I think the scriptures used "saved" before man connected eternal torment to it.  :)

[MusicLover123]

Oh, sorry Jabcat, I was referring to those AFTER Christ had risen, not before. I am vascilating on whether Christ preached to those in prison, but that Peter passage, I don't think it tells us a time frame.
Now Colossians 2:14-15 comes to mind too, if that happened durning those 3 days.

[jugghead]

John 3:16 has been brought to my mind lately also, especially what Connor quoted, "whosoever believes in Him should not perish" .....

for me ..... in order "to perish" you first have to be given life ..... and that our belief (faith/being persuaded) in Him keeps us from perishing in/of the life we have been given

IMO ..... we have all been given life, been given eternal life by the work of Christ upon the cross ..... but do we die (perish) by letting other men (of religion) in what they believe ... take away that belief of what we have been given (the parable of the four types of soil)

and again ..... IMO ..... every time someone of religion tells us "we have to do this", "we have to do that" ..... it takes away a part of the eternal life we already have been given ..... causing our full belief of having  been given eternal life to slowly perish in our heart by our mind believing that we do not possess it yet (so renew the mind to the belief you have been given eternal life by the work of Christ)

An example of this is like a classroom, the first day all the students arrive and are seated, the first thing the teacher tells them is ... they all have an A in the class, but then there are some students who believe that they do not have a grade yet ... that they have nothing ...... they have to "earn" that A .....

I believe Christ when He tells me I have been given eternal life and I do not let another student try to persuade me I have nothing and that I have to earn it. And it is only by this belief that I already possess it that I can walk in it ..... and the reason for this is: how can you walk "in" something that you do not believe you have?

and the only reason I can believe "in" eternal life is because I have been freely given eternal life, I have done nothing to earn it ..... for it is by grace that I am saved through faith (through persuasion) ..... being persuaded by His Spirit that I possess what He has freely given me.

And for me ..... the understanding of "it is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgment" is to understand: "it is appointed unto men once to believe they do not possess eternal life (die) and after this God's judgment that they do possess it and that it was freely given to them by the work of Christ upon the cross".

And if we are not convinced of it while we are physically alive ..... we definitely "will be" after our physical death (in the age to come)

my  :2c:

[jabcat]

by letting other men (of religion)

You know we differ on this, I'd like to express my view, as you've so graciously shared yours.

I don't say what I say to bring condemnation or an unnecessary burden.  I have struggled for years with "salvation".  However (as you already know) I just can't personally accept that everyone's already saved, they "just don't know it".  I believe the way has been made, God has reconciled Himself to man through the cross, but that each must now be reconciled to God through being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  I think that is clearly Biblical.  BY GRACE, not by works - but that it's an event (that begins a process);  an event that is initiated, empowered, enabled, accomplished through the work of the Holy Spirit.  Not our works, but His work - through us and to us, each in our own time.  I believe it's a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit.  By faith are you saved, and THAT (faith, the work) not of yourselves, lest any man should boast.  IMO, none of us can do this work.  He must do it through us.  But I believe it still must occur. 

I'm not judging who has/hasn't (unless someone obviously says "I don't believe in Jesus, never have, never called on Him,never will"), still, ONLY GOD KNOWS THE HEART.      Still, Paul said we are given the word of reconciliation, that we are to implore people, "be reconciled to God".  And the scriptures tell how that's done.  Not formulaic, not a heavy burden, but rather the Holy Spirit will visit each in their appointed time and give that faith to believe and trust Christ as Savior.  Turning from self and sin, to Him - in whatever way He provides and leads.  It may look like a hundred different things;  a Damascus Road experience, or quiet turning to the Lord in heart and mind - however the Spirit makes it happen for that person.  God knows the heart.       But I believe there are examples of what that looks like, what it means, with the following being scripture, not me.  The only thing I ask at the end of each is, is the author of the words "men of religion" that should be ignored?

that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.... And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved...Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out - Apostle Luke;  man of religion?

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.." -  Paul and Silas;  men of religion?

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. - Apostle John;  man of religion?

if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved... Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation... whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved - Apostle Paul;  man of religion?

Then finally, the oft-forgotten John 3 verse, not 16 but verse 18 -  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

So I personally have to say I don't believe everyone already has life, healing, salvation yet, but that it must be personally experienced.  The free gift of salvation received, and only able to be received through the free gift of faith.  None of it "our" doing, but still will occur.  Each in his own time, each as God initiates, directs and empowers.        All except scripture is IMO, as I understand - and still a limited understanding at best. 

[jugghead]

we both believe that "God has reconciled Himself to man through the cross"

I believe that when God reconciled Himself to man through the cross .... that by, through and in that reconciliation ... it is the giving of eternal life to man; the giving of Himself to man and it is only because He gave of Himself to us first ..... that I can believe, that I can confess, that I can have faith

the giving of eternal life "IS" reconciliation ..... reconciliation "IS" eternal life

my  :2c:

[jabcat]

we both believe that "God has reconciled Himself to man through the cross"

I believe that when God reconciled Himself to man through the cross .... that by, through and in that reconciliation ... it is the giving of eternal life to man; the giving of Himself to man and it is only because He gave of Himself to us first ..... that I can believe, that I can confess, that I can have fait

Very much in agreement with this :)

the giving of eternal life "IS" reconciliation ..... reconciliation "IS" eternal life

We can agree to just see it differently until the Holy Spirit clearly corrects one or the other of us :)
This is where we may begin seeing different perspectives, i.e., that I believe the scriptures teach that   (only through the Holy Spirit, no ability of our own), our hearts must turn to God through [His] faith in Jesus as Savior [given to us freely, at our appointed time].  I believe what you stated above about God reconciling Himself to man, because as I understand, that's what the scriptures say.  On the other hand, I don't believe everyone already has life in Christ ("eternal life"), as I believe that's also what the scriptures say.   I believe each must have their day of reckoning/"bowing/confessing" - whatever the Holy Spirit causes that to look like for each individual.  As the scriptures I posted earlier illustrate - an active event that brings one from death to life, darkness to light, lost to found, of the world to in the family/body.  I also believe we are instructed in scripture to call on people to believe and call on Jesus as Savior (I'm lousy at it, by the way).

I sometimes certainly do find myself wishing things were a certain way.  You know, "surely it's this way";  even, "I know better..."   :doh:  But I believe when it comes down to my wishes/understanding/mind,  or the scriptures, I need to go with the scriptures as best as possible and as much as it hurts my flesh and will sometimes.

Rm 10  Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 

[MusicLover123]

lots of verses in more literal translations have "believing" instead of believe/believed. Is that significant?

You may have missed this. I do not think it is a contradiction, but there is a deeper understanding of it all, that I would like to know.

What about "enduring to the end?" How can we say "has been saved" and "will be saved" at once? Is the old things passing away synonymous for being saved?

[jabcat]

What about "enduring to the end?" How can we say "has been saved" and "will be saved" at once? Is the old things passing away synonymous for being saved?

I too believe we need to keep being healed/made whole.  Even though our spirit is initially saved/redeemed/the new has come with initial salvation, there is still much to be gained or lost through obedience and seeking, or rebellion and running. 

I believe scripture teaches a time for each, when the knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus - salvation - being saved.  But that it also teaches healing,, deliverance, growing in faith and knowledge, obedience, good fruit, etc..."the walk" ("process" - or being processed :).  Works saved or lost/remain or burned as chaff.  I didn't always, but recently understand it as saved, being saved, will be saved.  I suggest there are scriptures to support each of the following, where they reconcile and don't contradict.  I.e.,  saved (spirit redeemed upon faith in Christ as Savior - brought into the body/family, "made new");  being saved (obedience, loss/reward, growing in grace and knowledge); will be saved (the redemption of our body, mortality taking on immortality). 

Various beliefs on it, the above is mine and I don't think usually often defined this way.  Yeah, I'm such a rebel  :laughing7:. 

This first came to my attention by Cardinal, and honestly, I rejected it at first.  She said we are saved in stages;  spirit, soul, body.  Sitting on it a year or two, I came to understand it better.  Apostle Paul exactly says that, I just never understood it before. 

I actually keep thinking about your post over the past couple days, and have wanted to say this;  although I believe one is saved upon faith in Christ as savior (salvation of the spirit, irrevocable) there is still a very real need to keep believing during the "walk" process, i.e., the salvation of the soul (who we are, our attributes, behavior, attitudes, thoughts, anything that is subject to either being won or lost [burned as chaff] on the Day of the Lord).  IMO, that's where obedience comes in, giving up our will for His, walking in the Spirit instead of living fleshly, carnal lives.  "Live according to the high calling".    Personally, I often doubt, have rebellious thoughts, attitudes.  Honestly, I often then hear the Lord (in my spirit) say to me, "believe on Me".  So for me, there's the believing part of it.  Otherwise, I'd wander and stray more than I do.

Lastly, I believe the "new" is the Spirit of Christ coming to dwell in [spiritually] dead bones.  We have the new nature of Christ, that now begins to battle the old sin nature, and as we "walk out the walk", seeking to do so in obedience and in the Spirit rather than flesh, the old keeps passing away.  I.e., overcoming.

I think there are depths to this that I don't know, and probably no one on earth can fully delve.  Hopefully this little piece makes sense.  :)