Since my awakening to the truth of the ultimate reconciliation of all mankind and the false teaching of hell, I have been questioning the use of the word "saved" in most contextual applications. My stirring resulted from reading Isaiah 53:5 where we are told ... by His stripes we are "healed" (Strong's H7495). The word used there indicates healing and being made "whole." Interestingly, so does the word for "saved" in the NT (Strong's G4982).
I am not saying the word should never be translated "saved" nor am I saying that it is never correctly translated "made whole" but is seems to me the idea of hell is unnecessarily propagated by the overuse of the word saved. I am not a very intellectually gifted individual but I am prone to be rather contemplative. I am throwing this out there for discussion and have just started to begin the process of reviewing the Scriptures where these words are used. I am slow at reading and very often my retention of subject matter is rather fleeting, thus causing me to reread passages again and again.
Anyway, I hope you receive these thoughts with the understanding I have asked this question in the hope of discovery and not intended to be devisive or malice driven.
Blessing,
Merks
What about "saved" as in made complete/new?
I often dislike the word saved.
It is used by some to form barriers and judge "he isn't saved."
It also is in the past tense and makes people complacent if they think the are "saved" as if there's nothing left to do, when in my opinion it's a process of discerning and following and obeying God's will to be perfected.
It also implies hell exists aka "saved from hell."
I do like the idea that it's meaning is also healed.
I do believe it is a process and not an event. The event is the decision to turn to God and rely on him instead of our own carnal natures, but after that decision we need to learn how to follow, how to obey, how to discern, and what God's will is. We need to experience it again and again to trust him in all things and to have the mind of God.
You can go to an online bible or download an app and search "saved" and copy and paste the verses into a file, I do it in "notes" on my iPad or iPhone, then at least you have the verses all in one place to compare and see context and then look at interlinears to see if they are all the same word translated.
I have a terrible memory for bible verses, I always remember a few words paraphrased and can't rememrb what book most of the time, for example I'll know it's in one of Paul's letters but not which one or its in the OT versus NT...so I just do a search in an online bible and find it. I sometimes read my own Tentmaker posts months later and I'm like wow I forgot that I wrote all that and I forgot those verses. I'll blame it on my three young kids robbing me of my brain cells :laughing7:
Hi merks. I think you are right, it is used various ways. I personally think what's important is context (some don't like that word) so I'll also say "how" it used and in what situation (in other words, context :laughing7:).
I believe sometimes it may mean heal, other times save (as in, as I believe the scriptures clearly teach, being brought to faith in Jesus as Savior, passing from death to life, being given the right to be called a child of God (Jn. 1:12). An event we can be sure of, the salvation of the spirit through faith in Christ. Then it's growth from there - further healing/saving. Other times, I suspect the meanings overlap - meaning both - healing and salvation. in a very real sense, salvation is [spiritual] healing.
Here is what I believe is a very useful reference to the use of sozo and its derivatives.
https://www.logosapostolic.org/greek-word-studies/4982-sozo-save.htm
I too believe we need to keep being healed/made whole. Even though our spirit is initially saved/redeemed/the new has come with initial salvation, there is still much to be gained or lost through obedience and seeking, or rebellion and running. I've come to believe that a child in the family can be a prodigal - although still a child, in need of returning to fellowship/functioning within the family [body]. Part of that "process" that GIL mentions, after one has come to initial faith in Christ.
My thought is, even though ET proponents believe being saved (brought to faith in Christ as Savior, spiritually healed) keeps one from going to eternal torment, the Bible still teaches it, rightly divided. Also, similar to predestination and election. Calvinists teach that it means everyone else goes to eternal torment, but the Bible still teaches it, rightly divided. I believe we just have to, with the help of the Holy Spirit, correctly divide it.
I believe scripture teaches a time for each, when the knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus - salvation - being saved. But that it also teaches healing,, deliverance, growing in faith and knowledge, obedience, good fruit, etc..."the walk" ("process" - or being processed :). Works saved or lost/remain or burned as chaff. I didn't always, but recently understand it as saved, being saved, will be saved. I suggest there are scriptures to support each of the following, where they reconcile and don't contradict. I.e., saved (spirit redeemed upon faith in Christ as Savior - brought into the body/family, "made new"); being saved (obedience, loss/reward, growing in grace and knowledge); will be saved (the redemption of our body, mortality taking on immortality). And IMO, that ALL involves healing. So again, I personally believe the way to understand it is of course Spirit guidance/revelation, but also how and when it is used. :)
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 09, 2018, 04:34:45 AM
What about "saved" as in made complete/new?
Amen. "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, the new has come into being." 2 Cor. 5:17 :dsunny:
death>life>not under judgment Jn. 5:24
.."right to be called children of God" Jn. 1:12
:bowing:
Yes jabcat, I agree that it's both an event and a process and that the timing is different for each of us, some sooner and some later.
I heard once that saved can also mean saved from sin in that sin no longer controls us in the same way. This I believe is because we are listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit.
I guess when I opened my post with disliking the word saved it was because I have encountered people who use it with a certain connotation like I was trying to convey in the post.
I tend to like to say Christian, follower of Christ, etc to explain it, as that to me conveys the ongoing aspect versus the past tense saved. Saved reminds me of putting something away for later, of kicking back and relaxing, instead of actively pressing in, enduring, seeking, praying, responding, learning and growing in Christ. I like the reference to the body that you mention, because the body is active. I believe it's a back forth, he calls, we answer, we seek, he responds.
I've been making edits to my post as I re-think some things and hopefully find better ways to say it :)
I like the clarification you make, that it's both, event and process. I saw that you really said that in your first post, it's just clearer in your next post. :thumbsup:
Here's the thing. I think we can pervert about anything. Even though I believe there is a specific event to "kick things off" - and that it's actually miraculous, when one passes from death to life/becomes a part of the family/body, I still believe in the ongoing process, or being continuously processed. I just don't think the first part (becoming a child of God through being given faith in Christ as Savior) can be taken away ("the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable"). However, I believe we can make a mess of things if we don't "walk the walk" following Him, being obedient, and end up in the pigpen. Still a child of the Father, but smelling like a hog. I believe there are scriptures that teach such a one will be "saved as by fire", i.e., maybe the only thing left standing is the spirit that's been reborn, but many/all other works and attributes will be burned as chaff. Paul talks about that. As for the "perversion of about anything", many people (mainly various groups of Baptists and Presbyterians) believe what I do about initial salvation - but there are individuals within those groups that pervert it (IMO). I.e., they say (like you're alluding to) "I'm saved, so I can do what I want..or nothing at all, except please my flesh. And I'm still saved". But what I believe they're missing is, the "being saved" part of what I mentioned before..the walk, obedience, growing, becoming more like Him, etc., etc....And it's those kinds of quirks that can leave a bad taste in one's mouth about it.."because they're that way, then I can't believe _______". That's why I think to Merk's initial salvo, I think it's important to do the "just because _____ perverts it, doesn't mean the scriptures don't still teach certain things". We just have to rightly divide it, understand it in light of ultimate reconciliation - i.e., what the scriptures REALLY teach about it, and not as a reaction to some other group's misrepresentation. :2c:
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 09, 2018, 06:33:48 AM
I heard once that saved can also mean saved from sin in that sin no longer controls us in the same way. This I believe is because we are listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit.
I like that..as well as, He now dwells in us, that "newness". Even though we still fight sin nature, we also have a new nature. And I believe that new nature can no longer be comfortable with un-confessed, un-cared-about sin. They don't co-exist well. So we keep being drawn back to close fellowship and obedience.
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 09, 2018, 06:33:48 AM
I guess when I opened my post with disliking the word saved it was because I have encountered people who use it with a certain connotation like I was trying to convey in the post.
^ The perversion I mentioned in the last post - problem is, IMO, "we" are good at perverting things, so we may be helped by being careful in our reaction when someone/we/I may do it. :2c:
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 09, 2018, 06:33:48 AM
I tend to like to say Christian, follower of Christ, ...pressing in, enduring, seeking, praying, responding, learning and growing in Christ.
Even though I personally think 'saved' is a perfectly good description - especially if understood/placed in its (what I consider :) proper context and meaning - I still probably tend to use the same phraseology too more myself...believer, Christian, follower of Christ.. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on September 09, 2018, 07:04:17 AM
believer, Christian, follower of Christ..
But then I realize this issue too...sometimes I AM more comfortable with "saved", as in, "saved
by grace". Because I usually, by far, don't believe I'm really much of a "follower of Christ". You know?
Grace...
I kinda' like the word "SAVED".
We are saved from so many things: from being 'alone' out here, without the Holy Spirit to guide us; from being afraid, because we know that God is with us; from the snares of this world...we have his Holy Word to explain to us; from not having a purpose or goal in life..... from our own self-directed lives into His marvelous Light; from battling evil spirits, without the full armor of God; saved from not knowing who we are; saved from wondering what will happen to us when we die, and so on. We know we exist in God, Himself.....in Him we live and move and have our being.
We are saved from not having a Savior, who gave His life so we could have life, everlasting.
We are saved from unforgiveness, lust, coveting, lies, and so on.
We have been bought at a price, Slaves, to our own sinfulness and the powers of evil, who are now FREE PEOPLE. Our freedom was bought by the one who made us.
Yes, I love the meaning of saved.
And, yes, jabcat, 'saved by grace', is a beautiful concept to cling to.
I don't believe I will be whole, or healed, until I am with God in Heaven, forever. To me, these terms imply more of a completeness. But, Jesus death on the cross has saved us. We are awaiting the completion of the process, in Heaven. That is how I see it.
But, I do feel very saved!
D.
I have to think we are saved from death. The wages of sin/missing the mark, etc, is death. And saved from its cause, missing the mark, ie, imperfection. I have to think God is Life, itself.. the vitality his spirit.. and we know He "is perfect". So imperfection = death.
"The soul that sins shall die" .."God alone is immortal".. Until He is all in all? Or that is believers "put on immortality at His return" and beginning of His long 2nd advent.. of "the thousand years" .."the judgment" until "the Son submits all things to the Father" as in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 "as through Adam all die, all through Christ sshall live but each in their own order, Christ the Firstfruits, those that are Christ's at His coming, and the end when He submits all to the Father that God may be all in all" - direct correlation to Revelation chapter 21, especially 1-5 (Trumpets -> Tabernacles)
:gsmile:
Good morning all ... So many good thoughts communicated here and I would like to reiterate I am not totally opposed to the word "saved." But I really think it falls short in communicating the significance of Christ's sacrifice. I am still learning and will never realize the completeness of His sacrifice until all has been brought to pass.
Perhaps my dissatisfaction with the word comes from the direct connection it has with hell. Orthodoxy has given the idea of salvation from hell the seat of supremacy in the value of The Gospel. I have asked a few people I love, who still maintain the orthodox view of hell, "what is Christianity without hell?" They just look at me with a blank stare as the thought is inconceivable.
The idea of healing and being made whole also can be looked at as a process and an event. It has been some time but I remember the point being made in my Greek class that "salvation is linear in nature and also complete. Because of the tense used in reference to the act of salvation it was accomplished in the past with a finished view in the future.
Healing is also progressive by nature and involves a view to return to wholeness. This,it seems to me, also fits the idea of total reconciliation and our completeness in becoming one with the Father as the Son is one with the Father (John 17). We could say "... by Grace are you being healed/made whole through faith ..." Grace, as I understand it, is the activity of God, working in our lives accomplishing the will and purpose of God and bringing to pass all He has decreed will happen.
It's interesting ... Ever since God has opened my understanding to the illegitimacy or fabrication of the doctrine of hell and the truth of the ultimate reconciliation of all mankind my faith in God has strengthened and my love for Him has grown although my trust in the interpretive process of the Scriptures has weakened. Please note, I did not say my trust in the Scriptures has weakened but rather the interpretation of them.
This morning I was reading Isaiah 53 and just randomly began to look up various words and was surprised at the variety of choices one has to choose from concerning the application of the meaning of various words. It made me realize the selection of a specific word in an application of meaning can greatly be impacted by ones current view of God and life.
I laughed out loud as I thought of how I used to look at Theology. Systematic theology was, in my mind, an absolute necessity to a "proper understanding" of God. Yet, it was the vary act of systemitizing God that drove me nuts because nothing seemed to fit. Then I laughed even more as I viewed myself with this magnifying glass looking intently through it as I studied God. Sometimes I wonder. Am I reading the owners manual when I have the Designer abiding with me? :laugh:
I think the authors of the Westminster Confession did get it right when they penned the words "the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever!"
Blessings, Merks
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleepG2837 in Christ are perished.
G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
Total KJV occurrences: 18
G2749
κεῖμαι
keimai
ki'-mahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to lie outstretched (literally or figuratively): - be (appointed, laid up, made, set), lay, lie. Compare G5087.
Total KJV occurrences: 26
Look how the CLV translates it:
1Co 15:18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished.
Repose
- a state of rest, sleep, or tranquility.
- be lying, situated, or kept in a particular place.
I also just realized, isn't being asleep resting? Don't we rest in the peace of God now? Do we have to be unconscious to rest in the peace of God?
The Jonathon Mitchell version:
1Co 15:18 Consequently, also, those falling asleep within the midst of and in union with Christ lose themselves (or: loose-away and destroy themselves).
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Eph 2:8 for by grace you are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift
Well, that is a tough one. Are we saved now, saved in the future, saved now and in the future, or something else?
Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit
Does it say "There will be no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus?" No, it says now there is no condemnation.
Rom 8:2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the lawG3551 of the sin and of the death
G3551
νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.
Total KJV occurrences: 197
So, is it fair to say that we are set free from death too? If we are, then why would those in Christ Jesus die when they die?
It is like saying "Oh, you don't die, you pass away." Well, presuming if dying means unconsciousness, they are the same thing, right? So it makes no sense to use to die, but in two different ways. As I noted above, I think there actually may be a difference between those who die in their sins and those who fall asleep in Jesus.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Strong's uses the same Greek word for both the bolded parts. So, are they talking about the same thing?
CLV 2Co 5:17 So that, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the primitive passed by. Lo! there has come new!
ISV 2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in the Messiah, he is a new creation. Old things have disappeared, and—look!—all things have become new!
JM-NT 2Co 5:17 So that if (or: since) anyone [is] within Christ ([the] Anointed One), [there is] a new (of different kind, character and quality) creation (framing; founding; act of creation): the original things (the beginning [situations]; the archaic and primitive things) passed by (went to the side). Consider! New things have come into existence (have been birthed; or: It has become new things; or: He has been birthed and now exists being ones of a different kind, character and quality).
Lamsa NT 2Co 5:17 Whoever from now on is a follower of Christ, is a new creation: old things have passed away; (I just realized I put a Aramaic translation in my Esword too! :laugh:)
Rotherham 2Co 5:17 On the contrary, now, no longer, are we gaining it. So that, if any one is in Christ, there is a new creation! the old things, have passed away,—Lo! they have become new!
TCNT 2Co 5:17 Therefore, if any one is in union with Christ, he is a new being! His old life has passed away; a new life has begun!
YLT 2Co 5:17 so that if any one is in Christ— he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
So, is the passing away of old things "being saved?"
Reading replies last night and today, and thinking it through, much is being addressed. I really think being saved/healed is multiple things. I don't believe the terms are in opposition, I believe they often mean the same thing, or at least overlap/go together. I believe the words saved and healed are perfect and appropriate, depending on their usage and understanding of what is being addressed - IMO.
Just a few thoughts that come to mind as to being saved, spiritually healed, that have nothing to do with eternal torment. There are many more;
passing from death to life "whosever believes in Him will not perish" Jn 3:16 ..."Whosoever Lives and Believes in Me Shall Never Die. Do you believe this?" Jn. 11:25
becoming a child of God (entering the family/body) I Jn 1:12
being saved from, as GIL indicated, the control of sin "live worthy of the high calling" Eph 4:1 "He will save His people from their sins" Mthw 1:21
Thanks Jab. Another thing, I think, came to me. When it says in John 3:16, those believing in the Son shall not perish, in Corinthians verse I put earlier, if Christ was not raised(He was) those in Him would perish. If sleeping means they're dead, would it make sense for those already dead to die?
To add to the discussion, lots of verses in more literal translations have "believing" instead of believe/believed. Is that significant?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 09, 2018, 08:13:54 PM
When it says in John 3:16, those believing in the Son shall not perish, in Corinthians verse I put earlier, if Christ was not raised(He was) those in Him would perish. If sleeping means they're dead, would it make sense for those already dead to die?
I've wondered the same thing, if those before the cross wouldn't be resurrected. However, I just remembered the issue when Jesus was walking the earth where some didn't believe in the resurrection, and that was a big deal. So I
think that shoots a hole in that theory. Maybe they weren't spiritually raised yet..yet Jesus went and preached to those in prison and led them from their captivity. I think there's much to explore, understand, and probably still some won't understand, until then.
I've been thinking, that we "mess up" perfectly good words and phrases the Bible uses (like 'saved') by our own religion, carnality, etc., which then unfortunately makes us hesitant to use them :( because their common understanding gets "twisted". :2c:
I think the scriptures used "saved" before man connected eternal torment to it. :)
Oh, sorry Jabcat, I was referring to those AFTER Christ had risen, not before. I am vascilating on whether Christ preached to those in prison, but that Peter passage, I don't think it tells us a time frame.
Now Colossians 2:14-15 comes to mind too, if that happened durning those 3 days.
John 3:16 has been brought to my mind lately also, especially what Connor quoted, "whosoever believes in Him should not perish" .....
for me ..... in order "to perish" you first have to be given life ..... and that our belief (faith/being persuaded) in Him keeps us from perishing in/of the life we have been given
IMO ..... we have all been given life, been given eternal life by the work of Christ upon the cross ..... but do we die (perish) by letting other men (of religion) in what they believe ... take away that belief of what we have been given (the parable of the four types of soil)
and again ..... IMO ..... every time someone of religion tells us "we have to do this", "we have to do that" ..... it takes away a part of the eternal life we already have been given ..... causing our full belief of having been given eternal life to slowly perish in our heart by our mind believing that we do not possess it yet (so renew the mind to the belief you have been given eternal life by the work of Christ)
An example of this is like a classroom, the first day all the students arrive and are seated, the first thing the teacher tells them is ... they all have an A in the class, but then there are some students who believe that they do not have a grade yet ... that they have nothing ...... they have to "earn" that A .....
I believe Christ when He tells me I have been given eternal life and I do not let another student try to persuade me I have nothing and that I have to earn it. And it is only by this belief that I already possess it that I can walk in it ..... and the reason for this is: how can you walk "in" something that you do not believe you have?
and the only reason I can believe "in" eternal life is because I have been freely given eternal life, I have done nothing to earn it ..... for it is by grace that I am saved through faith (through persuasion) ..... being persuaded by His Spirit that I possess what He has freely given me.
And for me ..... the understanding of "it is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgment" is to understand: "it is appointed unto men once to believe they do not possess eternal life (die) and after this God's judgment that they do possess it and that it was freely given to them by the work of Christ upon the cross".
And if we are not convinced of it while we are physically alive ..... we definitely "will be" after our physical death (in the age to come)
my :2c:
Quote from: jugghead on September 10, 2018, 01:22:04 AM
by letting other men (of religion)
You know we differ on this, I'd like to express my view, as you've so graciously shared yours.
I don't say what I say to bring condemnation or an unnecessary burden. I have struggled for years with "salvation". However (as you already know) I just can't personally accept that everyone's already saved, they "just don't know it". I believe the way has been made, God has reconciled Himself to man through the cross, but that each must now be reconciled to God through being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior. I think that is clearly Biblical. BY GRACE, not by works - but that it's an event (that begins a process); an event that is initiated, empowered, enabled, accomplished through the work of the Holy Spirit. Not
our works, but
His work - through us and to us, each in our own time. I believe it's a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit. By faith are you saved, and THAT (faith, the work) not of yourselves, lest any man should boast. IMO, none of us can do this work. He must do it through us. But I believe it still must occur.
I'm not judging who has/hasn't (unless someone obviously says "I don't believe in Jesus, never have, never called on Him,never will"), still, ONLY GOD KNOWS THE HEART. Still, Paul said we are given the word of reconciliation, that we are to implore people, "be reconciled to God". And the scriptures tell how that's done. Not formulaic, not a heavy burden, but rather the Holy Spirit will visit each in their appointed time and give that faith to believe and trust Christ as Savior. Turning from self and sin, to Him - in whatever way He provides and leads. It may look like a hundred different things; a Damascus Road experience, or quiet turning to the Lord in heart and mind - however the Spirit makes it happen for that person. God knows the heart. But I believe there are examples of what that looks like, what it means, with the following being scripture, not me. The only thing I ask at the end of each is, is the author of the words "men of religion" that should be ignored?
that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.... And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved...Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out - Apostle Luke; man of religion?
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.." - Paul and Silas; men of religion?
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. - Apostle John; man of religion?
if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved... Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation... whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved - Apostle Paul; man of religion?
Then finally, the oft-forgotten John 3 verse, not 16 but verse 18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
So I personally have to say I don't believe everyone already has life, healing, salvation yet, but that it must be personally experienced. The free gift of salvation received, and only able to be received through the free gift of faith. None of it "our" doing, but still will occur. Each in his own time, each as God initiates, directs and empowers. All except scripture is IMO, as I understand - and still a limited understanding at best.
we both believe that "God has reconciled Himself to man through the cross"
I believe that when God reconciled Himself to man through the cross .... that by, through and in that reconciliation ... it is the giving of eternal life to man; the giving of Himself to man and it is only because He gave of Himself to us first ..... that I can believe, that I can confess, that I can have faith
the giving of eternal life "IS" reconciliation ..... reconciliation "IS" eternal life
my :2c:
Quote from: jugghead on September 10, 2018, 09:23:02 PM
we both believe that "God has reconciled Himself to man through the cross"
I believe that when God reconciled Himself to man through the cross .... that by, through and in that reconciliation ... it is the giving of eternal life to man; the giving of Himself to man and it is only because He gave of Himself to us first ..... that I can believe, that I can confess, that I can have fait
Very much in agreement with this :)
Quote from: jugghead on September 10, 2018, 09:23:02 PM
the giving of eternal life "IS" reconciliation ..... reconciliation "IS" eternal life
We can agree to just see it differently until the Holy Spirit clearly corrects one or the other of us :)
This is where we may begin seeing different perspectives, i.e., that I believe the scriptures teach that (only through the Holy Spirit, no ability of our own), our hearts must turn to God through [His] faith in Jesus as Savior [given to us freely, at our appointed time]. I believe what you stated above about God reconciling Himself to man, because as I understand, that's what the scriptures say. On the other hand, I don't believe everyone already has life in Christ ("eternal life"), as I believe that's also what the scriptures say. I believe each must have their day of reckoning/"bowing/confessing" - whatever the Holy Spirit causes that to look like for each individual. As the scriptures I posted earlier illustrate - an active event that brings one from death to life, darkness to light, lost to found, of the world to in the family/body. I also believe we are instructed in scripture to call on people to believe and call on Jesus as Savior (I'm lousy at it, by the way).
I sometimes certainly do find myself wishing things were a certain way. You know, "surely it's this way"; even, "I know better..." :doh: But I believe when it comes down to my wishes/understanding/mind, or the scriptures, I need to go with the scriptures as best as possible and as much as it hurts my flesh and will sometimes.
Rm 10 Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 09, 2018, 08:13:54 PM
lots of verses in more literal translations have "believing" instead of believe/believed. Is that significant?
You may have missed this. I do not think it is a contradiction, but there is a deeper understanding of it all, that I would like to know.
What about "enduring to the end?" How can we say "has been saved" and "will be saved" at once? Is the old things passing away synonymous for being saved?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 11, 2018, 12:00:22 AM
What about "enduring to the end?" How can we say "has been saved" and "will be saved" at once? Is the old things passing away synonymous for being saved?
Quote from: jabcat on September 09, 2018, 05:35:48 AM
I too believe we need to keep being healed/made whole. Even though our spirit is initially saved/redeemed/the new has come with initial salvation, there is still much to be gained or lost through obedience and seeking, or rebellion and running.
I believe scripture teaches a time for each, when the knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus - salvation - being saved. But that it also teaches healing,, deliverance, growing in faith and knowledge, obedience, good fruit, etc..."the walk" ("process" - or being processed :). Works saved or lost/remain or burned as chaff. I didn't always, but recently understand it as saved, being saved, will be saved. I suggest there are scriptures to support each of the following, where they reconcile and don't contradict. I.e., saved (spirit redeemed upon faith in Christ as Savior - brought into the body/family, "made new"); being saved (obedience, loss/reward, growing in grace and knowledge); will be saved (the redemption of our body, mortality taking on immortality).
Various beliefs on it, the above is mine and I don't think usually often defined this way. Yeah, I'm such a rebel :laughing7:.
This first came to my attention by Cardinal, and honestly, I rejected it at first. She said we are saved in stages; spirit, soul, body. Sitting on it a year or two, I came to understand it better. Apostle Paul exactly says that, I just never understood it before.
I actually keep thinking about your post over the past couple days, and have wanted to say this; although I believe one is saved upon faith in Christ as savior (salvation of the spirit, irrevocable) there is still a very real need to keep believing during the "walk" process, i.e., the salvation of the soul (who we are, our attributes, behavior, attitudes, thoughts, anything that is subject to either being won or lost [burned as chaff] on the Day of the Lord). IMO, that's where obedience comes in, giving up our will for His, walking in the Spirit instead of living fleshly, carnal lives. "Live according to the high calling". Personally, I often doubt, have rebellious thoughts, attitudes. Honestly, I often then hear the Lord (in my spirit) say to me, "believe on Me". So for me, there's the believ
ing part of it. Otherwise, I'd wander and stray more than I do.
Lastly, I believe the "new" is the Spirit of Christ coming to dwell in [spiritually] dead bones. We have the new nature of Christ, that now begins to battle the old sin nature, and as we "walk out the walk", seeking to do so in obedience and in the Spirit rather than flesh, the old keeps passing away. I.e.,
overcoming.
I think there are depths to this that I don't know, and probably no one on earth can fully delve. Hopefully this little piece makes sense. :)
Quote from: jabcat on September 11, 2018, 12:21:35 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 11, 2018, 12:00:22 AM
What about "enduring to the end?" How can we say "has been saved" and "will be saved" at once? Is the old things passing away synonymous for being saved?
Quote from: jabcat on September 09, 2018, 05:35:48 AM
I too believe we need to keep being healed/made whole. Even though our spirit is initially saved/redeemed/the new has come with initial salvation, there is still much to be gained or lost through obedience and seeking, or rebellion and running.
I believe scripture teaches a time for each, when the knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus - salvation - being saved. But that it also teaches healing,, deliverance, growing in faith and knowledge, obedience, good fruit, etc..."the walk" ("process" - or being processed :). Works saved or lost/remain or burned as chaff. I didn't always, but recently understand it as saved, being saved, will be saved. I suggest there are scriptures to support each of the following, where they reconcile and don't contradict. I.e., saved (spirit redeemed upon faith in Christ as Savior - brought into the body/family, "made new"); being saved (obedience, loss/reward, growing in grace and knowledge); will be saved (the redemption of our body, mortality taking on immortality).
Various beliefs on it, the above is mine and I don't think usually often defined this way. Yeah, I'm such a rebel :laughing7:.
This first came to my attention by Cardinal, and honestly, I rejected it at first. She said we are saved in stages; spirit, soul, body. Sitting on it a year or two, I came to understand it better. Apostle Paul exactly says that, I just never understood it before.
I actually keep thinking about your post over the past couple days, and have wanted to say this; although I believe one is saved upon faith in Christ as savior (salvation of the spirit, irrevocable) there is still a very real need to keep believing during the "walk" process, i.e., the salvation of the soul (who we are, our attributes, behavior, attitudes, thoughts, anything that is subject to either being won or lost [burned as chaff] on the Day of the Lord). IMO, that's where obedience comes in, giving up our will for His, walking in the Spirit instead of living fleshly, carnal lives. "Live according to the high calling". Personally, I often doubt, have rebellious thoughts, attitudes. Honestly, I often then hear the Lord (in my spirit) say to me, "believe on Me". So for me, there's the believing part of it. Otherwise, I'd wander and stray more than I do.
Lastly, I believe the "new" is the Spirit of Christ coming to dwell in [spiritually] dead bones. We have the new nature of Christ, that now begins to battle the old sin nature, and as we "walk out the walk", seeking to do so in obedience and in the Spirit rather than flesh, the old keeps passing away. I.e., overcoming.
I think there are depths to this that I don't know, and probably no one on earth can fully delve. Hopefully this little piece makes sense. :)
Good post!
I've not heard of the saved in stages thing before, it's making me think. It makes sense and goes along with my current belief that we are saved as an event followed by a process.
I'm enjoying this thread.
Amen!!
And this link, too sums it up :thumbsup: ..the uses of the original word(s) saved and salvation (as also healing and health). He is salvation/health. And healing.. we are being healed (saved) and will inherit health (salvation). The properties co-existing..
Quote from: jabcat on September 09, 2018, 05:20:28 AM
Hi merks. I think you are right, it is used various ways. I personally think what's important is context (some don't like that word) so I'll also say "how" it used and in what situation (in other words, context :laughing7:).
I believe sometimes it may mean heal, other times save (as in, as I believe the scriptures clearly teach, being brought to faith in Jesus as Savior, passing from death to life, being given the right to be called a child of God (Jn. 1:12). An event we can be sure of, the salvation of the spirit through faith in Christ. Then it's growth from there - further healing/saving. Other times, I suspect the meanings overlap - meaning both - healing and salvation. in a very real sense, salvation is [spiritual] healing.
Here is what I believe is a very useful reference to the use of sozo and its derivatives.
https://www.logosapostolic.org/greek-word-studies/4982-sozo-save.htm
Also enjoyed Merks second post..
The one problem I think there is with saying we are (completely) saved now is that we still sin, and are not yet perfect. If you want to say healed, we are not completely healed yet. Nor sinless either. But, to say that nothing happens almost immediately seems to be wrong too, as some have brought up here.
In terms of Spirit, soul and body, I think I am starting to see what Cardinal says about what they are. It seems to be much deeper than "Oh, there is a Spirit, soul and body" then move on to something else. That Tabernacle has a lot hidden to discover, so that is something I'll be studying (mainly that "discovering the Tabernacle)
Good post too James :)
James,
I too must say that I appreciate your posts.
You can make your point of view clear without sounding authoratative. That is what I call 'humility'.
I don't see things the same way you do on this subject, but I don't think any two people see things the same way. That being said, the way that you say things speaks well about your character. I think you were a good choice for moderator at Tentmaker.
Thanks Pat and all :HeartThrob:
I want to clarify quickly, and then soon be looking for ways to back out and not be talking so much :). I agree, these are interesting and good things to consider. Pray about whatever parts of it may be accurate. Whatever else may be understood about it, what terminology, nuances, labels might be used to, for instance, describe the ongoing walk with the Lord (whether we call it the salvation of the soul, or "sanctification" as some do); apart from all that, these are the things I'd hang my hat on :) -
believe on the Lord Jesus as the Son of God and Savior, crucified and risen again for the redemption of our sins, through grace and not works. the free gift;
walk in obedience, seek to follow Him, walk in the Spirit not in the flesh, "grow in grace and knowledge", "acknowledge Him in all things". as He empowers and leads us;
He will give us a new body and grant us immortality, "to wit the redemption of our bodies", "when the mortal takes on immortality".
I think Savior isn't a complete translation
A very old translation, Wycliffe, uses healer. Well I'm kinda sure of that but can't really find the relevant verses... :-)
I'm pretty sure in was in Wycliffe but perhaps it was another ancient translation.
Be warned, those who have trouble with outdated KJV English, don't go near Wycliffe English. It clearly shows the Germanic roots of English. :-)
It's hard to explain but the old spelling of healer is very close to a word still used in (RCC) church songs. Heiland. That means healer.
But the word has more depth.
A form almost all know is "Heil Hitler"... in that form heil means have luck, be blessed.
Seeking 'heil' means seeking safety, protection, shelter.
So, heal, luck, blessed, safety, protection.
Not hard to see why that's translated as savior.
Healing is saving from sickness.
Protection is saving from harm.
But likewise savior can be understood/stretched to, saving from sickness etc.
Jesus has truckload of titles, not a single word covers them all.
Several words cover different aspects but we tend only use those words with their primary meaning.
Heiland seems the most complete word, but not perfect either. Simply because it doesn't mean for example "Lamb of God' or "King of kings".
So replacing Savior with some other word is just replacing something incomplete with another incomplete thing.
Wycliffe NT: http://www.bibledbdata.org/onlinebibles/wycliffe_nt/
Two old threads:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/jesus-is-the-healer/msg66288/#msg66288
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/a-bad-translation/msg41278/#msg41278
John 4:22 Ye worschipen that ye knowen not; we worschipen that that we knowen; for helthe is of the Jewis.
helthe = health = healing
I found this interesting..
4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).
From the power of sin.. and from the penalty of sin — but that penalty - as mentioned already - is not eternal torment. "The wages (reward, fitting compensation) of sin is death" which Jesus did pay on our behalf - no mention here of torment..
:Peace2: :girlheart:
Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)
"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"
Thoughts?
My life was waay harder before conversion.. I don't know who said the quote.. :Peace2:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 12, 2018, 06:52:00 PM
Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)
"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"
Thoughts?
99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1
Quote from: marie glen on September 12, 2018, 07:20:17 PM
My life was waay harder before conversion..
Maybe it is easier now, MG, because you realize He is carrying you :HeartThrob:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2018, 08:03:34 PM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 12, 2018, 06:52:00 PM
Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)
"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"
Thoughts?
99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1
Care to elaborate?
I am thinking when someone says 'to get saved' they are referring to a realization that they are being called to a new way of living?
I never went through that process. I have changed in many of my beliefs about who God is and my relationship to Him, but I have no memory of a time that I did not believe in God, and have faith in Him. For me, my journey of faith has been a constant metamorphosis, but never a sudden change.
So I will leave this one to those of you who remember "being saved".
D.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 12, 2018, 11:05:25 PM
Quote from: marie glen on September 12, 2018, 07:20:17 PM
My life was waay harder before conversion..
Maybe it is easier now, MG, because you realize He is carrying you :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup: :cloud9: His Spirit is a shield around us..
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2018, 08:03:34 PM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 12, 2018, 06:52:00 PM
Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)
"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"
Thoughts?
99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1
I would definitely say "ultimately"... Revelations 13:8 "the Lamb was slain from the creation of the world"
Balanced out with -
Acts 2:21 - "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Romans 10:13 - "Whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
Matthew 7:21 - “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven," [yet!] "but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
But oh yes.. all part of the blueprint/edifice - all saved. And working it out requires being called (according to other verses) and it sounds like, requires in turn, one's responding.
"You shall find Me when you seek Me with your whole heart."
He is infinitely wise, and infinitely able! (As if anything else were possible!) :laughing7:
1 Corinthians 2:7-10 "We speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: 'No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him' -- 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God."
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 13, 2018, 01:48:49 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2018, 08:03:34 PM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 12, 2018, 06:52:00 PM
Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)
"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"
Thoughts?
99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1
Care to elaborate?
Sure :banana: :laugh:
Many seem to believe God created mankind. Things went wrong. God started thinking real hard how to fix the situation that got way out of hand.
I don't believe that. God isn't a fixer. He's an ace chessplayer that looks many moves ahead.
Rev 13:8 ... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Jesus never was a patch job. Jesus was the core part of everything since God decided to create us. That includes the redemptive reach of Christ's life/work/sacrifice or whatever way you want to label it.
That reach isn't just past the grave, it's (also) before the womb.
The reach spans every micro second of time.
Some would say from the beginning to the end...
:2c:
Quote from: Dandelion on September 13, 2018, 02:07:01 AM
I am thinking when someone says 'to get saved' they are referring to a realization that they are being called to a new way of living?
Depends who says it, obviously.
Considering the vast majority of Christians is ET, it mostly means "I'm saved from the eternal fires of hell"
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2018, 11:26:19 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 13, 2018, 01:48:49 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2018, 08:03:34 PM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 12, 2018, 06:52:00 PM
Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)
"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"
Thoughts?
99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1
Care to elaborate?
Sure :banana: :laugh:
Many seem to believe God created mankind. Things went wrong. God started thinking real hard how to fix the situation that got way out of hand.
I don't believe that. God isn't a fixer. He's an ace chessplayer that looks many moves ahead.
Rev 13:8 ... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Jesus never was a patch job. Jesus was the core part of everything since God decided to create us. That includes the redemptive reach of Christ's life/work/sacrifice or whatever way you want to label it.
That reach isn't just past the grave, it's (also) before the womb.
The reach is spans every micro second of time.
Some would say from the beginning to the end...
:2c:
the farther back you look ..... the further forward you can see
Quote from: marie glen on September 13, 2018, 04:29:45 AM
Balanced out with -
Acts 2:21 - "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Romans 10:13 - "Whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
Matthew 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven," [yet!] "but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
That's a correct reply for an ET. But I don't really believe
you believe so.
I'm not saying you reject Scripture. I'm saying you don't believe it's a possibility or a choice.
Every knee will bow. By using our free will, we can delay things, not avoid them.
If you play nice, theFather plays nice and all will be quick and easy.
If you rebel, theFather puts on His size 40 army boots and you will get a painful b**t. In the long run those army boots will be victorious over all rebellion.
We have two choices. The easy way or the hard way. But every way leads to theFather's way. Detour or short cut.
You pick the road. He picks the destination.
:2c:
I agree that there's different ways to the same destination, and that the plans were already laid for the reconciliation of all of God's creation from the wandering we've done, it wasn't some sort of after the fact scramble to fix a broken creation.
I tend to think of so many individual paths that two categories don't really cut it, saved and unsaved. There are those "saved through fire" those saved through "pruning and grafting in" those saved through "taking up the cross" those saved through "dying to self" those saved through "aionios kolasis" those saved through being "salted with fire" and I'm sure there's more. I don't know if people even really know what category they are in and so many categories overlap that maybe we experience multiple means of salvation before reaching the final destination.
I have had some spiritual experiences and some may call them salvation experiences but I don't feel that I am "saved" I feel that I am turning to God and learning to walk with him and his will and to seek out God who is love and Jesus the Christ who shows us who the father is and the path to get to Him.
But I do think we are all generally talking about the same things just with slightly differently lenses and that's ok.
GodisLove,
Isn't "taking up the cross" and "dying to self" the same thing? You die on a cross, I don't think we carry our cross just for show, but to follow Him. We go through fiery trials too, so its not like we skip judgment. It is just that we go through it first.
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 14, 2018, 05:58:04 AM
I tend to think of so many individual paths that two categories don't really cut it, saved and unsaved.
That's a fact because in Revelation we read about sheep and goats. That's 2 groups. And that takes place after the third group, the saints, ruled for a 1000 tears with Christ. That's 3 groups. There are more. Each harvest in the natural represents a group in the spiritual.
All correction is taylor made. A stealing Christian doesn't need to be learned about Christ but an muslim does need that teaching. That's just on example.
Quote from: jugghead on September 13, 2018, 12:17:46 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2018, 11:26:19 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 13, 2018, 01:48:49 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2018, 08:03:34 PM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 12, 2018, 06:52:00 PM
Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)
"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"
Thoughts?
99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1
Care to elaborate?
Sure :banana: :laugh:
Many seem to believe God created mankind. Things went wrong. God started thinking real hard how to fix the situation that got way out of hand.
I don't believe that. God isn't a fixer. He's an ace chessplayer that looks many moves ahead.
Rev 13:8 ... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Jesus never was a patch job. Jesus was the core part of everything since God decided to create us. That includes the redemptive reach of Christ's life/work/sacrifice or whatever way you want to label it.
That reach isn't just past the grave, it's (also) before the womb.
The reach is spans every micro second of time.
Some would say from the beginning to the end...
:2c:
the farther back you look ..... the further forward you can see
Revelation 22:
10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy."
12"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. 13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."Jesus is the beginning and the end. He restores all to the way the Father intended....for us to be transformed into the new creations that reflect Jesus Christ. But, the road to transformation was not the road humanity would have chose, but the road that God chose, which included suffering and knowledge of good and evil. For us all to choose only good, at the end of the journey, there had to be suffering, on the journey. Both our own suffering, and Jesus' suffering.
I think it is interesting to note that John was told that all should be allowed to continue doing what they had been doing, both the unrighteous and the righteous. If Hell was a forever state, would that be the advice? If so, then we are condemning those who do wrong to Hell, forever. And, we know that it is said that Jesus desires ALL to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:
...3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,...
D.
I just want to say, I believe we have already been saved...by Jesus' death on the cross, once and for all.
However, we are still in the process of our transformation.....which I believe will be completed when we are all in Heaven with God, and all has been conquered, through Jesus.
In an analogy, Jesus opened the door, by His death on the cross, but we have not walked through the door, yet, until we are all gathered together.............. transformation, completed.
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on September 14, 2018, 11:38:19 AM
I just want to say, I believe we have already been saved...by Jesus' death on the cross, once and for all.
However, we are still in the process of our transformation.....which I believe will be completed when we are all in Heaven with God, and all has been conquered, through Jesus.
In an analogy, Jesus opened the door, by His death on the cross, but we have not walked through the door, yet, until we are all gathered together.............. transformation, completed.
D.
Nice, I like it
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 14, 2018, 12:48:16 PM
Quote from: Dandelion on September 14, 2018, 11:38:19 AM
I just want to say, I believe we have already been saved...by Jesus' death on the cross, once and for all.
However, we are still in the process of our transformation.....which I believe will be completed when we are all in Heaven with God, and all has been conquered, through Jesus.
In an analogy, Jesus opened the door, by His death on the cross, but we have not walked through the door, yet, until we are all gathered together.............. transformation, completed.
D.
Nice, I like it
Amen! It fits perfectly with the scripture.. 1 Cor 15 towards the end of the chapter, how at the last trump Jesus returns the dead in Him and the live Christians will meet him at His coming.. this mortal, Paul said, must put on immortality.. this corruptible will put on incorruption.. No more getting old.. or people dying.. Ultimately! ...according to the book of revelation it sounds like all dead non-believers are still not resurrected until another 1000 years, during which those in the first resurrection will reign w/Jesus, but I think of it as serving. Also it sounds like there will be earthly survivors (?) idk for sure..
I had a ‘spooky’ thought this morning, reading Genesis’ very first verses. If God is light, what would total darkness be? (To say the least it would be very spooky!)
Bless you sisters! I miss Rosey and Sheila.. Cardinal too.. You miss them? I’m sure you do.. :girlheart:
Quote from: marie glen on September 14, 2018, 04:14:21 PM
I had a 'spooky' thought this morning, reading Genesis' very first verses. If God is light, what would total darkness be? (To say the least it would be very spooky!)
Well, wouldn't have God been in total darkness? Even in Genesis 1, it says this:
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness
H2822 was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
H2822חֹשֶׁךְ
chôshek
kho-shek'
From
H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.
Total KJV occurrences: 79
H2821חָשַׁךְ
châshak
khaw-shak'
A primitive root; to be dark (
as withholding light); transitively to darken: - be black, be (make) dark, darken, cause darkness, be dim,
hide.
Total KJV occurrences: 17
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
1Ki_8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2Ch_6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
Isa_9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
Joh 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
Joh 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light.
These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
2Co_4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Amen! Thank you for the verses!
I was reading the verses, early Genesis, in the interlinear. I always get the impression the Father, in order to create the universe, matter, he had to 'empty' a space to do so and is why it was first formless and dark. Silly yes? When I read the verse of his saying let there be light and there was light, and then my thought if God is light, what is total dark(ness)? Or.. can there be total darkness? Maybe not? :dontknow:
:Chinscratch: The verses you posted were very good.. He shines in us..
Quote from: marie glen on September 14, 2018, 08:21:41 PM
Amen! Thank you for the verses!
I was reading the verses, early Genesis, in the interlinear. I always get the impression the Father, in order to create the universe, matter, he had to 'empty' a space to do so and is why it was first formless and dark. Silly yes? When I read the verse of his saying let there be light and there was light, and then my thought of God is light, what is total dark(ness)? Or.. can there be total darkness? Maybe not? :dontknow:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and
shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou
make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands,
which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
So, wouldn't all these things be made to be a shadow of Heavenly things, which are a shadow of it?
I don't know Hebrew, but I've heard that in Genesis, it can also mean "in a beginning." Strong's has other meanings for that word, like first-fruit, principle, etc.
Quote from: marie glen on September 14, 2018, 04:14:21 PM
Amen! It fits perfectly with the scripture.. 1 Cor 15 towards the end of the chapter, how at the last trump Jesus returns the dead in Him and the live Christians will meet him at His coming..all dead non-believers are still not resurrected until another 1000 years
I see your post making a distinction marie, about those believing now (saved) and those yet to believe.
I understand some of the statements made about everyone already saved (or some say, no one saved yet) "outside of time", as in "is, was, will be", "the Lamb slain before the foundation", etc. God and His view are "eternal". But I believe
we are still "in time". And I believe scripture teaches there is an intermediate step, i.e., that some are called and given faith to believe unto salvation in this age.
IMO, to say either no one is yet saved, or that all are already saved, can not be reconciled with the following scriptures.
what must I do to be saved?...believe on and confess Jesus and you will be saved...
whoever believes on Him will have eternal life
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
those who believe on His name, given the right to be called children of God
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
This is a good read. All of it, but especially beginning 2nd paragraph with regard to this discussion;
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/msg95116/#msg95116
Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2018, 12:04:21 AM
IMO, to say either no one is yet saved, or that all are already saved, can not be reconciled with the following scriptures...
Not sure James, there are two caveats for me to say some are saved right now.
When it says those who
endure to the end and when it puts believing in the present tense. If you and/or God shows me how to reconcile that to say you can be saved now, I will "switch over."
I seem to interpret saved as
being perfect and I am definitely not perfect right now.
Can you give me Scriptures on someone who was saved? Not just saying "will be saved" but "was saved."
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
Memory of specifics don't serve me well on disagreements I had with Ray, but I believe this was one of them..salvation.
Let me start with, you (and anyone) will agree there is a time for each person to believe on Jesus? Become a believer? Have a turn from sin into faith in Christ (or even as a small child being given the faith to believe and trust Jesus as Savior)? Whatever one may call that. Just the basics. This basic thing. Coming from one group (unbeliever) to another (believer); "to those who believe on His name, He gave the right to be called children of God". That has to happen, right? At some point, either now or later? That's what I term being saved. Details are "what it's called, who are the elect, why the elect, when/if the rest believe", etc...
Next, as for specifics to your post, I'd ask "endure to the end" of what? What age was that said in, and to whom specifically? Also, if one CAN put that in context of salvation, then it could very easily fit into the "2nd stage of salvation" suggestion, i.e., the salvation of the soul (works, rewards, loss, etc.), not regeneration/salvation of the spirit (the initial turning to Christ in belief, becoming a child of God IJn 1:12). There is also the concept of "endurance of the saints", i.e., that believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit and will be sustained unto that day. That is ensured by Christ.
Eph. 2:8 it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, not of yourselves...gift of God
Some interesting translations of that scripture;
Orthodox Jewish translation; For by unmerited Chen v'Chesed Hashem you have been delivered from Hashem's Mishpat (Judgment) and granted a share in the Geulah (Redemption), through emunah; and this is not [an einfal (intuitive idea)] of yourselves, it is a matnat Hashem (gift of G-d);
Young's Literal; for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,
More -
I Jn. 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Rm. 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in [present tense] Christ Jesus.
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them [present tense], and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them [present/active tense], and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. [the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable]"
Alright, thanks :)
Interesting to note, you could have also noted "now" in Romans 8:1, and not just "in" as present tense.
Curious about the "no life in him" verses:
1 John 3
15Every one who is hating his brother — a man-killer he is, and ye have known that no man-killer hath life age-during in him remaining
John 6
53Jesus, therefore, said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, If ye may not eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and may not drink his blood, ye have no life in yourselves
What are your thoughts on that? What does it mean to have no life left in you? Lose salvation, or were you not truly saved in the first place?
Without digging into specifics a lot, I tend to think this generally means "spiritually dead", not spiritually regenerated/brought into the body yet. In one place there is a scripture that talks about "if they go out from among us, they were not really with us". So yes, I'd think "not saved yet". Maybe head knowledge, no real change of heart. "Lord, Lord, but never knew you".
I think there are other possibilities, depending on the verse, situation, etc. For instance, I believe one can be a believer (initial salvation) but not really grow beyond that, so have limited fellowship with Christ, i.e., walking in the flesh and not the Spirit. So then are not living in the kingdom, which is "righteousness, peace, and joy, in the Holy Spirit". I'm not sure that scenario is ever called "dead" though. The prodigal son was wallowing in muck, but still in the family. Don't think he was enjoying it though, as the Spirit of Christ and the works of the flesh are not generally comfortable in each others' company, so to speak. Could probably make this a big discussion :). These are just some quick initial thoughts, :2c:, by no means "comprehensive". :) :)
Doesn't the father say his son was dead, and now alive?
Do you think someone in the body of Christ could have no life in him? Obviously up to God, but still.
What would salvation of the body look like, when we are changed?
We could make this 60 pages if you want :). Not enough members participate though.
#1..without looking it up, i think you're right, he did say that. i'd like to dig into it and see if I can understand it better. I'll do that in a bit :) If you do, let me know what you come up with.
#2..wow, hard question. "up to God", yes. I personally wouldn't want to make that judgment. My thought/opinion, is technically, no. However, one might be viewed or described as that, i.e., ineffective, lukewarm, carnal. Paul told the Corinthian church he reproved them to their shame; that they sinned/allowed sin in their midst that not even the world would, namely, one guy was committing adultery with his father's wife. He said some of them would be saved as by fire, (IMO), lose everything, burned as chaff all but his redeemed (saved) spirit. And what did he call them? SAINTS! :o
#3..The only thing I know about it is, Paul expressly states "when mortal takes on immortality". Some believe this is an actual body, but with miraculous capabilities and capacity. Sort of like Jesus' after resurrection, i.e., could appear through walls, etc. I think there's much speculation beyond that, I honestly don't know.
#4..Keep going :)
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 15, 2018, 04:06:22 AM
Do you think someone in the body of Christ could have no life in him? Obviously up to God, but still.
Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2018, 04:32:20 AM
My thought/opinion, is technically, no. However, one might be viewed or described as that, i.e., ineffective, lukewarm, carnal.
After I posted, this occurred to me. Since as believers, we're crucified with Christ and it's no longer us that live, but Christ that lives in us..and since we're sealed and kept by the Holy Spirit..and since the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable...I'd think Christ within us, the renewed spirit in us, could not become dead. All obvious function around it might appear that way..we may even be called that by someone else...but again, I believe technically the answer is no.
I know many disagree with that, many believe one can become a child of God, a child of the devil, then a child of God, then a child of the devil, all based on a person's continued diligence or not (and behavior)..they believe must get saved and re-baptized over and over again. Paul said to not lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works, but to move forward. He also says it doesn't depend on him who runs or wills, but on God Who shows mercy. Also, that nothing can separate us from the love of God...
Yes, much to discuss here :) :dsunny:
Can I put in a note here, in case this becomes lost in the details?
Believe on Jesus as Savior/Saver.
Follow Him as closely as possible, knowing it's all enabled and empowered by Him
He will completely redeem/restore/deliver/heal us - as He sees fit and according to His timing and will.
Lather, rinse, repeat :laugh:
Huh, the way I worded one question when typing turned out different than expected. Guess the Spirit wanted otherwise :0)
I'll write it like this: Can someone in the Body of Christ end up with no life in him?
Based on your replies, I am guessing you would say no, and that seems like the best answer. Just wondering if the person with life in him was "saved" in the first place. When it says hates his brother, thinking this is a Spiritual brother in the body, and not a physical one.
QuoteI know many disagree with that, many believe one can become a child of God, a child of the devil, then a child of God, then a child of the devil, all based on a person's continued diligence or not (and behavior)
Kind of like flowers. "I love Him, I don't love Him. I love Him, I don't love Him..."
On #3, remember how Paul says a body is made up of many members? Maybe the same here? A thought came before, that maybe the body is manifesting the invisible, not sure. Was doing a little study on a verse in James before, and seems the phrase "vanish away" as a vapor has roots in "hidden in Christ." Also was thinking it may be related to the "cloud of witnesses" as clouds have vapor.
Keep going too :P :dsunny:
I think we are all children of God, he made us all, we all came from him and will all return. I think the scripture that speaks to someone being a child of the devil is symbolic of not following God/being an adversary and yes I believe Christians can be carnal/adversarial.
But the thing is, the issue of salvation is debated among Christians and has been for a long time as far as I can ascertain.
This famous passage:
James
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
So this is another scripture for my "death" being spiritual thread...
But it also highlights that faith without works is DEAD. Pretty strong wording.
Phillipians
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling
How can we work out Salvation if it's a one time act?
Matthew 24
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Enduring implies a process, not an event.
Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?
John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
This speaks of what deeds people did, because what is in our heart will manifest outward in what we do and how we act.
Romans 2:5-11
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds; to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; read more.
So if we should take the Bible as a whole, we can't ignore the countless verses that talk about enduring, working out, doing good, etc.
In my opinion, I believe the free gift from God is his love, mercy and forgiveness, his son, his spirit...
But I think to believe in Jesus means to believe what he taught and carry it out in practice. Jesus taught a religion of DOING, not just of believing and sitting back.
He taught of:
Turning the other cheek
Forgiving
Giving up all possessions
Giving to those who are hungry, sick etc
Helping those who are in need etc.
He commanded to love God and our neighbor.
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
Luke
5 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[a]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
In this story Jesus preaches of loving and caring for others. Then he tells a story where the hero is a despised Samaritan, not a Jew or Christian.
But this person did the loving thing.
So I believed, like Dandelion, that we aren't perfected yet and are working it out through his spirit.
Works of the law are no longer required but the fruit of the spirit is good works to others in love, and this is part of the picture, not only just a mental nod of belief.
All in my opinion subject to change as the spirit leads.
Quote from: marie glen on September 14, 2018, 04:14:21 PM
Bless you sisters! I miss Rosey and Sheila.. Cardinal too.. You miss them? I'm sure you do.. :girlheart:
I DO miss Rose and Sheila and Cardinal, and others too. I'm always sad to see that some no longer post here. Sometimes I think I will take a break but I can't seem to stay away :friendstu:
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 15, 2018, 11:40:04 PM
Quote from: marie glen on September 14, 2018, 04:14:21 PM
Bless you sisters! I miss Rosey and Sheila.. Cardinal too.. You miss them? I'm sure you do.. :girlheart:
I DO miss Rose and Sheila and Cardinal, and others too. I'm always sad to see that some no longer post here. Sometimes I think I will take a break but I can't seem to stay away :friendstu:
I know that I miss them. They were such a big part of this site. I wish they would come back. But, whatever they do, I wish them joy and peace, and many blessings.....always.
D.
Amen Dandelion.. And great post GodisLove!
And amen Jabcat, and ML..
What an interesting discussion..
I was trying to think of what verse it is that says something about being transplanted, or translated? In the KJ..? :Chinscratch:
Found it! [ https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Translated&qs_version=KJV ] It’s Colossians 1:13 -
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: We’ve been transplanted.. (any gardeners? Lol)
And also, we’ve been “adopted”...
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Legally adopted -
Ephesians 1:5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will..
Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2018, 04:50:45 AM
Can I put in a note here, in case this becomes lost in the details?
Believe on Jesus as Savior/Saver.
Follow Him as closely as possible, knowing it's all enabled and empowered by Him
He will completely redeem/restore/deliver/heal us - as He sees fit and according to His timing and will.
Lather, rinse, repeat :laugh:
Amen, a turning point.. faith in Jesus.. we turn, we follow..
————————————————-
note: imo, the churches/people add commandments and rules, but Jesus said His yoke is easy. (Love! By the indwelling/receiving of God’s Holy Spirit. But, of course, the adversary will attempt to throw stumbling blocks in ones path. And in the Greek(?) of His ‘name’ is slanderer.. of one.. of others.. and also, of course, accuser.. (all the same word if I’m remembering correctly.)
That’s where folks get bogged down.. To say we are free, of course, is not free to steal.. murder.. etc! Yet even were one oppressed by an obsession/was a kleptomaniac.. The thing is - i’ve never come across anyone who if they truly had submitted their self to the Lord, yield, yielding & consciously having given their self to Him, I would surely expect to see deliverance. And then the measuring rod is that Spirit of the heart that cries abba father.. His continued guidance and our abiding in his word - and Love! Do we love or dislike the ppl around us? Etc..
I think it’s a thin line.. between examining our walk too little; and examining our walk too much! Ppl I think can get kind of stuck in a place where it’s all about them.. stalled at the threshold, always doubting their adoption! Not able to “rest in Him” cannot escape from self improvement via self effort, which doesn’t work.. Just lean back I always want to say - because “Beneath are the everlasting arms.” “HE is faithful to finish the work in us, which HE has begun” Ephesians?
Quote from: marie glen on September 16, 2018, 05:38:33 PM
Amen Dandelion.. And great post GodisLove!
And amen Jabcat, and ML..
What an interesting discussion..
I was trying to think of what verse it is that says something about being transplanted, or translated? In the KJ..? :Chinscratch:
Found it! [ https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Translated&qs_version=KJV ] It's Colossians 1:13 - Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
We've been transplanted.. (any gardeners? Lol)
And also, we've been "adopted"...
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Legally adopted -
Ephesians 1:5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will..
Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2018, 04:50:45 AM
Can I put in a note here, in case this becomes lost in the details?
Believe on Jesus as Savior/Saver.
Follow Him as closely as possible, knowing it's all enabled and empowered by Him
He will completely redeem/restore/deliver/heal us - as He sees fit and according to His timing and will.
Lather, rinse, repeat :laugh:
Amen, a turning point.. faith in Jesus.. we turn, we follow..
————————————————-
note: imo, the churches/people add commandments and rules, but Jesus said His yoke is easy. (Love! By the indwelling/receiving of God's Holy Spirit. But, of course, the adversary will attempt to throw stumbling blocks in ones path. And in the Greek(?) of His 'name' is slanderer.. of one.. of others.. and also, of course, accuser.. (all the same word if I'm remembering correctly.)
That's where folks get bogged down.. To say we are free, of course, is not free to steal.. murder.. etc! Yet even were one oppressed by an obsession/was a kleptomaniac.. The thing is - i've never come across anyone who if they truly had submitted their self to the Lord, yield, yielding & consciously having given their self to Him, I would surely expect to see deliverance. And then the measuring rod is that Spirit of the heart that cries abba father.. His continued guidance and our abiding in his word - and Love! Do we love or dislike the ppl around us? Etc..
I think it's a thin line.. between examining our walk too little; and examining our walk too much! Ppl I think can get kind of stuck in a place where it's all about them.. stalled at the threshold, always doubting their adoption! Not able to "rest in Him" cannot escape from self improvement via self effort, which doesn't work.. Just lean back I always want to say - because "Beneath are the everlasting arms." "HE is faithful to finish the work in us, which HE has begun" Ephesians?
Yes I agree! Especially with your last three paragraphs! Some try to say we need to follow all of these laws, like mosaic law or church customs. Some try to complicate the simplicity in Christ but some water it down too much IMO. I agree it's a fine line.
All from Galatians:
I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised (a stipulation of one of the Mosaic laws) that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.
...so we are definitely not under the law or under oppressive rituals or rules.
Because:
2 Corinthians 3:3
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
So I'm in agreement that we don't have to do much other than trust and believe BUT I do think it is a working out and a process of endurance.
Rose always spoke of the battle of carnal and spiritual within her and I feel we all have that, and we are progressing to learn to hear the voice of the spirit, listen and follow the spirit, trust the spirit...
The only reason we are ahead of others is that we are undergoing this process now instead of later.
They are IMO being brought to a place where they will eventually say yes to the spirit as well, whether that is being saved by the destruction of flesh by the adversary so they can be saved:
hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Another one for my "ways to be saved" post!
Anyway...in some ways it is simpler than we make it but in other ways I believe it is more intricate and deep.
I think some would call "enduring to the end" overcoming/the overcomers, and that would then be an argument why no one is saved yet.
In short, how I view both the Saving and Healing aspects associated with Jesus Christ, is that should one hear the call of Christ to fully repent of sinful behaviour and turn to God, and from then onwards continually turn to God through love for Christ and the God He expresses, which is to turn from evil as a consequence - then Christ has saved that one by setting them upon on a path of healing though His grace. Indeed, saved by grace.
As I understand it, the image of the Christ who is Love, who came forth from the God who is Love, shall - in a time far from now perhaps, whether here on this little planet or in one of those many spiritual abiding places spoken of by Christ - shall arise in the heart and mind in every one of His children in every situation, because of His approachability, His simplicity, His friendship, His omnipresence. He is the Answer to all problems: mental, material and spiritual.
Looking at current affairs in the world today, to some it may seem a strange claim that each one should have Christ arise in their hearts and minds. But, according to my understanding, the world is actually quite young regarding its peopling, and while man has put up a valiant fight at times, he has yet to grasp the deeper meaning of the Christ's life on earth as man.
I believe that Christendom, as a whole, with its many confining doctrines, has not been able to see the wood for the trees; and that the Holy Spirit seeks, by diverse means, to function beyond the boundaries that man has set for His working; and that in time to come the apparent separate pieces of the puzzle shall secretly slide into place, slowly and over time, not unlike the movement of the earth's crust rejoining beneath the great oceans which are not seen unaided.
The old doctrines can be revered, as strange as it may sound to some, in the sense that they have had a deep impact on those who adhered to them because they violated God's laws far less – in other words, they sinned less – and it is "sin" that is the crux of the matter, in my opinion.
Looking at an extreme example perhaps: it has been taught by some men in the name of Christianity (which has influenced the whole), that a life-long debased human being, one who has lived a degraded existence of greed, debauchery, sloth and wickedness, can be somehow excused the consequences of his sin-stained life by confirming some theological statement or other on his death bed, affirming, out of self-interest, ideas and concepts alien to his character and which have filled him with loathing all his life.
And, in this death-bed example, for the character to become Christ-like, then it seems plain that an after-death existence must be undertaken in order to achieve this; contemplating an "instant" Divine-purity of character for such a self-centred sot is surely foolishness - the Supreme God has chosen other ways to bring the spiritual character of His children on, as daily experience in this world of sense indicates clearly, so it seems to me. While God and His angels affect and influence the children of God for good, the children are still permitted their choices: "Let him who is filthy be filthy still".
True, if genuine repentance is given, it is the beginning of a deeply embedded association with the Person of Christ, and, as such, the course of actions and the intent behind them should now be from a position of the awakened Christ within, although deeply ingrained habits will have a pull towards previous sinful ways at first ("Go, and do not sin again"). But, in my opinion, this is far removed the removal of the consequences of past sin - and this is what has been glossed over by many in the doctrines of yore.
What an extreme opposite to the statements that declare that what a man sows, so shall he reap; or by whatever measure a man gives, so shall it be measured to him. And this for both good and ill.
When Christ spoke of keeping His word* throughout the Aeon and never seeing death, it is clear, in my opinion, that He was referring to not "sinning", that is, violating His the laws of Love – the laws of Love which He demonstrated in Person and which were expounded from His lips – the laws of the Kingdom of God.
* "emon logon" ⇔ "my word/saying"
- a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
- a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
- anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
And Christ always accompanied His promise of a future superabundant life with warnings about wrong conduct and motives; because, in my opinion, to speak of one without the other is not only to mislead a hearer but indeed to betray them.
It is, in my opinion, the law of consequences which should be clearly laid out for humanity to consider, "that everyone may receive the things done in the body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad".
For I am certain that sin would be dramatically reduced in this world should it be known that each act in this life is sowing a seed which will produce a harvest of either healthy grain or poisonous weeds; that wilful, intentional sin must be rectified by agonising effort over time to come, in discomfort, shame and despair; that the creator of sinful consequences must gather the knotted threads of the chord of his or her life and slowly weave them back to a harmonious whole.
It should be known, in my opinion, that accountability for all words, deeds and influences is inescapable, where all such actions performed by the Doer are as a stone dropped in a pond causing wavelets and wrinkles to spread out indeterminably; so malignant influences are reaped with painful remorse, while the good influence may yield a crop of healthy food - at least once that which is venomous has been expiated.
It is my opinion that immediately following and thereafter to injurious and malevolent deeds and intentions by the Doer - injurious to oneself and others – is the attribution of results to the Doer by God's unchanging laws, "for he that does a wrong shall receive the wrong he has done, there is no favouritism"; and such laws work on continuously until the genesis of those baleful thoughts, deeds and motives has been cleansed.
And what of the cries of injustice from the man or woman who sees the apparent victory of evil everywhere they look?
Only when the inviolable laws that ensure the sowing and the reaping of good and ill, the giving out and the receiving back in like measure, only when these are expressed as not being able to be circumvented by either doctrine or man's cunning, shall humankind have unshakable confidence that God really is in control of every thought and action - or more correctly perhaps, the Supreme oversees the minutest thought even before it has happened - only then shall men and women know that Christ is there to companion the downtrodden in their tribulations, and that the Holy Spirit is there to guide and make plain the perfect and incorruptible Divine Justice which can never fail.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 18, 2018, 10:07:32 PM
I think some would call "enduring to the end" overcoming/the overcomers, and that would then be an argument why no one is saved yet.
Perhaps a true believer is both saved, and being saved..
Quote from: lastpost on September 18, 2018, 10:54:23 PM
In short, how I view both the Saving and Healing aspects associated with Jesus Christ, is that should one hear the call of Christ to fully repent of sinful behaviour and turn to God, and from then onwards continually turn to God through love for Christ and the God He expresses, which is to turn from evil as a consequence - then Christ has saved that one by setting them upon on a path of healing though His grace. Indeed, saved by grace.
As I understand it, the image of the Christ who is Love, who came forth from the God who is Love, shall - in a time far from now perhaps, whether here on this little planet or in one of those many spiritual abiding places spoken of by Christ - shall arise in the heart and mind in every one of His children in every situation, because of His approachability, His simplicity, His friendship, His omnipresence. He is the Answer to all problems: mental, material and spiritual.
Looking at current affairs in the world today, to some it may seem a strange claim that each one should have Christ arise in their hearts and minds. But, according to my understanding, the world is actually quite young regarding its peopling, and while man has put up a valiant fight at times, he has yet to grasp the deeper meaning of the Christ’s life on earth as man.
I believe that Christendom, as a whole, with its many confining doctrines, has not been able to see the wood for the trees; and that the Holy Spirit seeks, by diverse means, to function beyond the boundaries that man has set for His working; and that in time to come the apparent separate pieces of the puzzle shall secretly slide into place, slowly and over time, not unlike the movement of the earth’s crust rejoining beneath the great oceans which are not seen unaided.
The old doctrines can be revered, as strange as it may sound to some, in the sense that they have had a deep impact on those who adhered to them because they violated God’s laws far less – in other words, they sinned less – and it is “sin” that is the crux of the matter, in my opinion.
Looking at an extreme example perhaps: it has been taught by some men in the name of Christianity (which has influenced the whole), that a life-long debased human being, one who has lived a degraded existence of greed, debauchery, sloth and wickedness, can be somehow excused the consequences of his sin-stained life by confirming some theological statement or other on his death bed, affirming, out of self-interest, ideas and concepts alien to his character and which have filled him with loathing all his life.
And, in this death-bed example, for the character to become Christ-like, then it seems plain that an after-death existence must be undertaken in order to achieve this; contemplating an “instant” Divine-purity of character for such a self-centred sot is surely foolishness - the Supreme God has chosen other ways to bring the spiritual character of His children on, as daily experience in this world of sense indicates clearly, so it seems to me. While God and His angels affect and influence the children of God for good, the children are still permitted their choices: “Let him who is filthy be filthy still”.
True, if genuine repentance is given, it is the beginning of a deeply embedded association with the Person of Christ, and, as such, the course of actions and the intent behind them should now be from a position of the awakened Christ within, although deeply ingrained habits will have a pull towards previous sinful ways at first (“Go, and do not sin again”). But, in my opinion, this is far removed the removal of the consequences of past sin - and this is what has been glossed over by many in the doctrines of yore.
What an extreme opposite to the statements that declare that what a man sows, so shall he reap; or by whatever measure a man gives, so shall it be measured to him. And this for both good and ill.
When Christ spoke of keeping His word* throughout the Aeon and never seeing death, it is clear, in my opinion, that He was referring to not “sinning”, that is, violating His the laws of Love – the laws of Love which He demonstrated in Person and which were expounded from His lips – the laws of the Kingdom of God.
* "emon logon" ⇔ "my word/saying"
- a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
- a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
- anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
And Christ always accompanied His promise of a future superabundant life with warnings about wrong conduct and motives; because, in my opinion, to speak of one without the other is not only to mislead a hearer but indeed to betray them.
It is, in my opinion, the law of consequences which should be clearly laid out for humanity to consider, "that everyone may receive the things done in the body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad".
For I am certain that sin would be dramatically reduced in this world should it be known that each act in this life is sowing a seed which will produce a harvest of either healthy grain or poisonous weeds; that wilful, intentional sin must be rectified by agonising effort over time to come, in discomfort, shame and despair; that the creator of sinful consequences must gather the knotted threads of the chord of his or her life and slowly weave them back to a harmonious whole.
It should be known, in my opinion, that accountability for all words, deeds and influences is inescapable, where all such actions performed by the Doer are as a stone dropped in a pond causing wavelets and wrinkles to spread out indeterminably; so malignant influences are reaped with painful remorse, while the good influence may yield a crop of healthy food - at least once that which is venomous has been expiated.
It is my opinion that immediately following and thereafter to injurious and malevolent deeds and intentions by the Doer - injurious to oneself and others – is the attribution of results to the Doer by God’s unchanging laws, "for he that does a wrong shall receive the wrong he has done, there is no favouritism"; and such laws work on continuously until the genesis of those baleful thoughts, deeds and motives has been cleansed.
And what of the cries of injustice from the man or woman who sees the apparent victory of evil everywhere they look?
Only when the inviolable laws that ensure the sowing and the reaping of good and ill, the giving out and the receiving back in like measure, only when these are expressed as not being able to be circumvented by either doctrine or man’s cunning, shall humankind have unshakable confidence that God really is in control of every thought and action - or more correctly perhaps, the Supreme oversees the minutest thought even before it has happened - only then shall men and women know that Christ is there to companion the downtrodden in their tribulations, and that the Holy Spirit is there to guide and make plain the perfect and incorruptible Divine Justice which can never fail.
:thumbsup: Very interesting! :Chinscratch: I think reaping and sowing - as a natural and built in natural law - makes a lot more sense (logos/logic) than God chasing folks around to punish them.. I also think He is life itself, so another natural law (to me, that He seems to be teaching(?) is that to wander away from Him / out of His will/reality, is to walk away from life - because He is life, itself, that vitality - which if not rescued off the path of death, such a one will perish, because once something, or someone becomes flawed / imperfect, as opposed to His Perfection.. Could imperfect ever make itself perfect? When its nature is imperfection? So if God is life and also Perfection, it makes, to my mind, imperfection the opposite of life.
This can be in all degrees of imperfection/death. Since imperfection/"missing the mark"-translated sin leads to and results in, death, it is, in essence, death already. But, i figure that ultimately, imperfection cannot be immortal but must fade away. Because it's He who is life. So to me, this learning of good from evil, is to learn ultimately that there is no living, no life, apart from Him. It's simple impossible.
"Why call Me good?" Jesus said, "there is only One good". He is life.. all the trees in the garden.. (so to speak, not Pantheism, lol). And there's just the one.. But such a broad way.. A broad way one cannot save their self from. So I figure God thought, heck, let's get this out of the way! We'll (Father & Son) put them all, in heaven and earth through this now all at once, together.. A thousand years are like a day in His sight..
Just think though.. all the complaints of the world how God is so mean to let life be so imperfect.. But He
is life. Doesn't that mean He experiences it all?
There is nothing anyone can say about God which should bother us in any way.. He is unadulterated goodness and love.. We can be sure He has done all things, and is doing, all things, in just the way He has, in order to bring about the utter best of all possibilities.. which possibilities, surely, were spread out before His omnipotent sight before he ever began the work of creation.
There so much we don't know and we're not aware of.. But whatever He has in mind, it will be perfect.
This age and following ages I believe we are learning, being imprinted with His words, thoughts, will..
It's His will we see now as through a glass darkly.. but we do see a little.. :thumbsup:
:2c: I believ'whole'has the connotation of free from weakness/affliction/infirmity/injury.A soundness of being..like say....incorruption and
immortality. I think of this when I read the new heaven/earth creation.No sickness/tears,cold/hunger/death[lack of any kind if youwill.]
Basically,I readit as 'snatched'/saved/delivered from the will of the wicked one with it's
accompanying/plagues/afflictions/death/poverty/lack........
and healed/made whole/no lack..into a great thriving abundance of life and joy in our eternal estate
God's mercy,love ,power, and grace delivering us from our pitiful state. Him straitening the crooked,strengthening the weak,making
firm the 'wobbley',healing the sick,bringing the dead tolife,giving sight to the blind,opening the earsof the deaf..understanding to
the confused,intellect to those who lack intelligence,speech to the mute. Saying unto those to whom It had beensaid..
'not MY people!' that 'YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD!!"
We shall all be rejoicing and praising Him forever..knowing how very blessed we are..that He is ours..and we are His.
2 Cor. 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Isaiah 55:11 "My word which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me void, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
G628
ἀπολούω
apolouō
ap-ol-oo'-o
From G575 and G3068; to wash fully, that is, (figuratively) have remitted (reflexively): - wash (away).
Total KJV occurrences: 2
G575
ἀπό
apo
apo'
A primary particle; "off", that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
Total KJV occurrences: 649
G3068
λούω
louō
loo'-o
A primary verb; to bathe (the whole person; whereas G3538 means to wet a part only, and G4150 to wash, cleanse garments exclusively): - wash.
Total KJV occurrences: 6
Other translations say "were" instead of are:
CLV 1Co 6:11 And some of you were these, but you are bathed off, but you are hallowed, but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God.
YLT 2Co 5:17 so that if any one is in Christ— he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
CLV Gal 2:20 With Christ have I been crucified, yet I am living; no longer I, but living in me is Christ. Now that which I am now living in flesh, I am living in faith that is of the Son of God, Who loves me, and gives Himself up for me.
JM-NT Gal 2:20 I was crucified together with Christ, and thus it remains (or: I have been jointly put on the crucifixion stake in Christ, and continue thus), yet I continue living! [It is] no longer I, but it is Christ continuously living within ME! (or: No longer an "I" -- now Christ constantly lives within, and in union with, me). Now that which I, at the present moment, continue living within flesh, I am constantly living within faith by and in the Son of the God loving me and giving Himself over to another for the sake of me (or: even transmitting Himself, over me; also passing Himself along for me).
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
G3327
μεταβαίνω
metabainō
met-ab-ah'ee-no
From G3326 and the base of G939; to change place: - depart, go, pass, remove.
Total KJV occurrences: 12
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins
CLV Col 1:13 Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
Col 1:14 in Whom we are having deliverance, the pardon of sins
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
G3700
ὀπτάνομαι / ὄπτομαι
optanomai / optomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to look at, behold
2) to allow one's self to be seen, to appear
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai, which is used for it in certain tenses, and both as alternate of G3708
Interesting, did you notice how those who believe the Son will not see death, and those who do not believe the Son will not see life?
1Jn_1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
:mthumbsup:
Maybe/maybe not related:
Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
G360
ἀναλύω
analuō
an-al-oo'-o
From G303 and G3089; to break up, that is, depart (literally or figuratively): - depart, return.
Total KJV occurrences: 2
G303
ἀνά
ana
an-ah'
A primary preposition and adverb; properly up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.): - and, apiece, by, each, every (man), in, through. In compounds (as a prefix) it often means (by implication) repetition, intensity, reversal, etc.
Total KJV occurrences: 15
G3089
λύω
luō
loo'-o
A primary verb; to "loosen" (literally or figuratively): - break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off. Compare G4486.
Total KJV occurrences: 43
Luk 19:33 And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Found where some mentioned the "silver cord" too:
Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
:cloud9: It's a lot easier to comprehend I think, if you look at the baptisms. We are baptized in water as a type of His death; it symbolizes being lowered into the grave. We are baptized into His life by being baptized in the fire of the Holy Ghost, a type of His resurrection from the dead. Water cleanses, but fire purifies and sterilizes. The first is our spirit being saved, the second begins the work on our soul being saved. Word for saved also means deliverance and it is this baptism that begins our deliverance out of the things that have held us in bondage. This is the sanctification of the soul, and ultimately, should we make it to the end, the salvation of our body, where corruption is swallowed up of incorruption. My :2c: Blessings...
So, when would you say the end of our faith is, for the salvation of the soul?
I started a study on salvation recently, and just working on finding the saving of the 3 things in real detail. I do think, as you mentioned, that we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. It isn't a contradiction, if you know what is happening.
:cloud9: I think the end of our faith is unto the saving of the body, while still in the body. Paul spoke of 2 resurrections; one of the dead, and one of those that are not dead physically because they defeated every enemy including death, ie. mortality swallowed up of immortality. He said he didn't want to be unclothed (die literally) but clothed upon. I take this to mean the body being glorified. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 21, 2018, 09:53:38 PM
Maybe/maybe not related:
Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
I think it's very related. I see Paul as saying he was torn between continuing in his present body (beneficial to his brethren, in this life/age) or physically dying and experiencing the next life of being in God's direct Personal presence (beneficial to himself). Either remaining in the "tent" of flesh, or (not unclothed as "just" a spirit) but rather clothed in his new spiritual glorified body. It sounds to me like he really preferred to go - "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body [
earthly body, (
inserted)] and to be present with the Lord". 2 Corinthians 51-8 talks in detail about it (https://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/2-corinthians/5.html). Paul does say the ultimate outcome of our salvation/redemption is the new body, immortality. I understand that to mean after this current life/body has been put off and we're given immortal bodies in His presence.
I myself believe that "the end of our faith" is seen in where the word "faith" is originally taken from, it is taken from the word that means "to convince"
so if we see "the end of our faith" ..... AS ..... "the end of our convincing" ... of which "that convincing" comes from HIS SPIRIT ... then the end of our convincing becomes "TO KNOW"
and also ... "faith" also includes "believing" ..... we need to believe what we are being convinced of by His Spirit
early in my walk, (after my experience but before I believed) I did not believe the possibility of "the salvation of all" ... what I became convinced of ... by/through His Spirit is that "all things are possible with God" and if all things are possible, then the salvation of all had to become a possibility of truth IN me (baptism of water).... and then by believing in that possibility ... He then proceeded to convince me "HOW" it is possible (baptism of fire)
of which .... all of this just explains the process that "all" will go through .... which is like what Cardinal said "a baptism" it is both a baptism of water and a baptism of fire
the baptism by water IN me was to believe the possibility ..... the baptism by fire was being CONVINCED of what I believed was possible
and being convinced BY HIS SPIRIT is "to know"
of which, this all goes back to merks original opening post of "saved" and "healed" in an understanding that our "ignorance" (our lack of understanding) is a darkness of the mind, in other words "a blindness" of the mind ..... that when we are "healed" from that blindness, we are being "saved" from our lack of understanding (our ignorance).
Being "healed" from blindness ..... IS ..... being "saved" from a lack of understanding
and the proof of this understanding is in Matthew 15 .... where Jesus compares the blindness of the Pharisees to the lack of understanding of the disciples
..... IN "all things" ..... the glory of the Lord is revealed, and I believe HIS GLORY "IS" His process of salvation and understanding "how" He is accomplishing it through what was accomplished at the cross
my :2c:
:cloud9: Amen, yes, excellent..... :friendstu: Blessings....
Amen! :iagree: And saved from a flawed character, or character which can be, and is, prone to being flawed in thinking and doing. Which wages of is death.. So once healed of flawed/carnal character, we are saved and healed of dying, and, or the 'sentence' of and the resulting death.. Which to me, means the carnal character is an incomplete character, being incomplete in it's knowledge of and union with God, who to me, is life (itself, and He "is perfect", so flawed to me, is the opposite of life, thus the healing :banana: is from suffering from a disease of imperfection/flawed, which prognosis is death. {So even if believers live on after death, as many believe, and God can do whatever He wants, lol, I cannot think that unsaved folks live again until resurrection to the judgment, as that would imply inherent immortality and "there is only one immortal" and all other life is in Jesus.
:Peace2: