Why “Saved” as opposed to “Healed/Made Whole”?

[GodIsLove]

What about "enduring to the end?" How can we say "has been saved" and "will be saved" at once? Is the old things passing away synonymous for being saved?

I too believe we need to keep being healed/made whole.  Even though our spirit is initially saved/redeemed/the new has come with initial salvation, there is still much to be gained or lost through obedience and seeking, or rebellion and running. 

I believe scripture teaches a time for each, when the knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus - salvation - being saved.  But that it also teaches healing,, deliverance, growing in faith and knowledge, obedience, good fruit, etc..."the walk" ("process" - or being processed :).  Works saved or lost/remain or burned as chaff.  I didn't always, but recently understand it as saved, being saved, will be saved.  I suggest there are scriptures to support each of the following, where they reconcile and don't contradict.  I.e.,  saved (spirit redeemed upon faith in Christ as Savior - brought into the body/family, "made new");  being saved (obedience, loss/reward, growing in grace and knowledge); will be saved (the redemption of our body, mortality taking on immortality). 

Various beliefs on it, the above is mine and I don't think usually often defined this way.  Yeah, I'm such a rebel  :laughing7:. 

This first came to my attention by Cardinal, and honestly, I rejected it at first.  She said we are saved in stages;  spirit, soul, body.  Sitting on it a year or two, I came to understand it better.  Apostle Paul exactly says that, I just never understood it before. 

I actually keep thinking about your post over the past couple days, and have wanted to say this;  although I believe one is saved upon faith in Christ as savior (salvation of the spirit, irrevocable) there is still a very real need to keep believing during the "walk" process, i.e., the salvation of the soul (who we are, our attributes, behavior, attitudes, thoughts, anything that is subject to either being won or lost [burned as chaff] on the Day of the Lord).  IMO, that's where obedience comes in, giving up our will for His, walking in the Spirit instead of living fleshly, carnal lives.  "Live according to the high calling".    Personally, I often doubt, have rebellious thoughts, attitudes.  Honestly, I often then hear the Lord (in my spirit) say to me, "believe on Me".  So for me, there's the believing part of it.  Otherwise, I'd wander and stray more than I do.

Lastly, I believe the "new" is the Spirit of Christ coming to dwell in [spiritually] dead bones.  We have the new nature of Christ, that now begins to battle the old sin nature, and as we "walk out the walk", seeking to do so in obedience and in the Spirit rather than flesh, the old keeps passing away.  I.e., overcoming.

I think there are depths to this that I don't know, and probably no one on earth can fully delve.  Hopefully this little piece makes sense.  :)

Good post!

I've not heard of the saved in stages thing before, it's making me think. It makes sense and goes along with my current belief that we are saved as an event followed by a process.

I'm enjoying this thread.

[marie glen]

Amen!!

And this link, too sums it up :thumbsup: ..the uses of the original word(s) saved and salvation (as also healing and health). He is salvation/health. And healing.. we are being healed (saved) and will inherit health (salvation). The properties co-existing..

Hi merks.  I think you are right, it is used various ways.  I personally think what's important is context (some don't like that word) so I'll also say "how" it used and in what situation (in other words, context  :laughing7:). 

I believe sometimes it may mean heal, other times save (as in, as I believe the scriptures clearly teach, being brought to faith in Jesus as Savior, passing from death to life, being given the right to be called a child of God (Jn. 1:12).  An event we can be sure of, the salvation of the spirit through faith in Christ.  Then it's growth from there - further healing/saving.    Other times, I suspect the meanings overlap - meaning both - healing and salvation.  in a very real sense, salvation is [spiritual] healing.

Here is what I believe is a very useful reference to the use of sozo and its derivatives.

   https://www.logosapostolic.org/greek-word-studies/4982-sozo-save.htm

Also enjoyed Merks second post..

[MusicLover123]

The one problem I think there is with saying we are (completely) saved now is that we still sin, and are not yet perfect. If you want to say healed, we are not completely healed yet. Nor sinless either. But, to say that nothing happens almost immediately seems to be wrong too, as some have brought up here.

In terms of Spirit, soul and body, I think I am starting to see what Cardinal says about what they are. It seems to be much deeper than "Oh, there is a Spirit, soul and body" then move on to something else. That Tabernacle has a lot hidden to discover, so that is something I'll be studying (mainly that "discovering the Tabernacle)

[MusicLover123]

Good post too James :)

[Patinak]

James,
I too must say that I appreciate your posts.
You can make your point of view clear without sounding authoratative.  That is what I call 'humility'.
I don't see things the same way you do on this subject, but I don't think any two people see things the same way.  That being said, the way that you say things speaks well about your character.  I think you were a good choice for moderator at Tentmaker.

[jabcat]

Thanks Pat and all  :HeartThrob:

I want to clarify quickly, and then soon be looking for ways to back out and not be talking so much :).  I agree, these are interesting and good things to consider.  Pray about whatever parts of it may be accurate.           Whatever else may be understood about it, what terminology, nuances, labels might be used to, for instance, describe the ongoing walk with the Lord (whether we call it the salvation of the soul, or "sanctification" as some do);  apart from all that, these are the things I'd hang my hat on :)  -

believe on the Lord Jesus as the Son of God and Savior, crucified and risen again for the redemption of our sins, through grace and not works.  the free gift;

walk in obedience, seek to follow Him, walk in the Spirit not in the flesh, "grow in grace and knowledge", "acknowledge Him in all things".  as He empowers and leads us;

He will give us a new body and grant us immortality, "to wit the redemption of our bodies", "when the mortal takes on immortality".   

[WhiteWings]

I think Savior isn't a complete translation
A very old translation, Wycliffe, uses healer. Well I'm kinda sure of that but can't really find the relevant verses... :-)
I'm pretty sure in was in Wycliffe but perhaps it was another ancient translation.

Be warned, those who have trouble with outdated KJV English, don't go near Wycliffe English. It clearly shows the Germanic roots of English. :-)


It's hard to explain but the old spelling of healer is very close to a word still used in (RCC) church songs. Heiland. That means healer.
But the word has more depth.
A form almost all know is "Heil Hitler"... in that form heil means have luck, be blessed.
Seeking 'heil' means seeking safety, protection, shelter.

So, heal, luck, blessed, safety, protection.
Not hard to see why that's translated as savior.
Healing is saving from sickness.
Protection is saving from harm.

But likewise savior can be understood/stretched to, saving from sickness etc.


Jesus has truckload of titles, not a single word covers them all.
Several words cover different aspects but we tend only use those words with their primary meaning.
Heiland seems the most complete word, but not perfect either. Simply because it doesn't mean for example "Lamb of God' or "King of kings".
So replacing Savior with some other word is just replacing something incomplete with another incomplete thing.





Wycliffe NT: http://www.bibledbdata.org/onlinebibles/wycliffe_nt/

[WhiteWings]

Two old threads:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/jesus-is-the-healer/msg66288/#msg66288

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/a-bad-translation/msg41278/#msg41278


John 4:22 Ye worschipen that ye knowen not; we worschipen that that we knowen; for helthe is of the Jewis.

helthe = health = healing

[marie glen]

I found this interesting..

4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).

From the power of sin.. and from the penalty of sin — but that penalty - as mentioned already - is not eternal torment. "The wages (reward, fitting compensation) of sin is death" which Jesus did pay on our behalf - no mention here of torment..
:Peace2: :girlheart:

[MusicLover123]

Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)

"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"

Thoughts?

[marie glen]

My life was waay harder before conversion.. I don't know who said the quote.. :Peace2:

[WhiteWings]

Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)

"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"

Thoughts?

99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1

[MusicLover123]

My life was waay harder before conversion..

Maybe it is easier now, MG, because you realize He is carrying you  :HeartThrob:

[GodIsLove]

Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)

"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"

Thoughts?

99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1

Care to elaborate?

[Dandelion]

I am thinking when someone says 'to get saved' they are referring to a realization that they are being called to a new way of living?

I never went through that process. I have changed in many of my beliefs about who God is and my relationship to Him, but I have no memory of a time that I did not believe in God, and have faith in Him. For me, my journey of faith has been a constant metamorphosis, but never a sudden change.

So I will leave this one to those of you who remember "being saved".

D.

[marie glen]

My life was waay harder before conversion..

Maybe it is easier now, MG, because you realize He is carrying you  :HeartThrob:

   :thumbsup:  :cloud9: His Spirit is a shield around us..

Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)

"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"

Thoughts?

99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1

I would definitely say "ultimately"... Revelations 13:8 "the Lamb was slain from the creation of the world"

Balanced out with -

Acts 2:21 - "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Romans 10:13 - "Whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
Matthew 7:21 - “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven," [yet!] "but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

But oh yes.. all part of the blueprint/edifice - all saved. And working it out requires being called (according to other verses) and it sounds like, requires in turn, one's responding.

"You shall find Me when you seek Me with your whole heart."

He is infinitely wise, and infinitely able! (As if anything else were possible!) :laughing7:


1 Corinthians 2:7-10 "We speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: 'No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him' -- 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God."

[WhiteWings]

Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)

"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"

Thoughts?

99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1

Care to elaborate?

Sure  :banana: :laugh:

Many seem to believe God created mankind. Things went wrong. God started thinking real hard how to fix the situation that got way out of hand.
I don't believe that. God isn't a fixer. He's an ace chessplayer that looks many moves ahead.
Rev 13:8 ... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Jesus never was a patch job. Jesus was the core part of everything since God decided to create us. That includes the redemptive reach of Christ's life/work/sacrifice or whatever way you want to label it.

That reach isn't just past the grave, it's (also) before the womb.
The reach spans every micro second of time.
Some would say from the beginning to the end...

:2c:

[WhiteWings]

I am thinking when someone says 'to get saved' they are referring to a realization that they are being called to a new way of living?

Depends who says it, obviously.

Considering the vast majority of Christians is ET, it mostly means "I'm saved from the eternal fires of hell"

[jugghead]

Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)

"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"

Thoughts?

99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1

Care to elaborate?

Sure  :banana: :laugh:

Many seem to believe God created mankind. Things went wrong. God started thinking real hard how to fix the situation that got way out of hand.
I don't believe that. God isn't a fixer. He's an ace chessplayer that looks many moves ahead.
Rev 13:8 ... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Jesus never was a patch job. Jesus was the core part of everything since God decided to create us. That includes the redemptive reach of Christ's life/work/sacrifice or whatever way you want to label it.

That reach isn't just past the grave, it's (also) before the womb.
The reach is spans every micro second of time.
Some would say from the beginning to the end...

:2c:

the farther back you look ..... the further forward you can see

[WhiteWings]

Balanced out with -

Acts 2:21 - "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Romans 10:13 - "Whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
Matthew 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven," [yet!] "but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

That's a correct reply for an ET. But I don't really believe you believe so.
I'm not saying you reject Scripture. I'm saying you don't believe it's a possibility or a choice.

Every knee will bow. By using our free will, we can delay things, not avoid them.
If you play nice, theFather plays nice and all will be quick and easy.
If you rebel, theFather puts on His size 40 army boots and you will get a painful b**t. In the long run those army boots will be victorious over all rebellion.

We have two choices. The easy way or the hard way. But every way leads to theFather's way. Detour or short cut.

You pick the road. He picks the destination.

:2c:

[GodIsLove]

I agree that there's different ways to the same destination, and that the plans were already laid for the reconciliation of all of God's creation from the wandering we've done, it wasn't some sort of after the fact scramble to fix a broken creation.

I tend to think of so many individual paths that two categories don't really cut it, saved and unsaved. There are those "saved through fire" those saved through "pruning and grafting in" those saved through "taking up the cross" those saved through "dying to self" those saved through "aionios kolasis" those saved through being "salted with fire" and I'm sure there's more. I don't know if people even really know what category they are in and so many categories overlap that maybe we experience multiple means of salvation before reaching the final destination.

I have had some spiritual experiences and some may call them salvation experiences but I don't feel that I am "saved" I feel that I am turning to God and learning to walk with him and his will and to seek out God who is love and Jesus the Christ who shows us who the father is and the path to get to Him.

But I do think we are all generally talking about the same things just with slightly differently lenses and that's ok.

[MusicLover123]

GodisLove,

Isn't "taking up the cross" and "dying to self" the same thing? You die on a cross, I don't think we carry our cross just for show, but to follow Him. We go through fiery trials too, so its not like we skip judgment. It is just that we go through it first.

[WhiteWings]

I tend to think of so many individual paths that two categories don't really cut it, saved and unsaved.

That's a fact because in Revelation we read about sheep and goats. That's 2 groups. And that takes place after the third group, the saints, ruled for a 1000 tears with Christ. That's 3 groups. There are more. Each harvest in the natural represents a group in the spiritual.

All correction is taylor made. A stealing Christian doesn't need to be learned about Christ but an muslim does need that teaching. That's just on example.

[Dandelion]

Here's a quote (some may know who it is from :)

"Getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever go through in this lifetime"

Thoughts?

99% correct.
Nobody get's saved during this lifetime.
Everyone was saved before birth.
theFather isn't running around trying to fix things.
It was a done deal even before Gen 1:1

Care to elaborate?

Sure  :banana: :laugh:

Many seem to believe God created mankind. Things went wrong. God started thinking real hard how to fix the situation that got way out of hand.
I don't believe that. God isn't a fixer. He's an ace chessplayer that looks many moves ahead.
Rev 13:8 ... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Jesus never was a patch job. Jesus was the core part of everything since God decided to create us. That includes the redemptive reach of Christ's life/work/sacrifice or whatever way you want to label it.

That reach isn't just past the grave, it's (also) before the womb.
The reach is spans every micro second of time.
Some would say from the beginning to the end...

:2c:

the farther back you look ..... the further forward you can see

Revelation 22:

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy."

12"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."


Jesus is the beginning and the end. He restores all to the way the Father intended....for us to be transformed into the new creations that reflect Jesus Christ. But, the road to transformation was not the road humanity would have chose, but the road that God chose, which included suffering and knowledge of good and evil. For us all to choose only good, at the end of the journey, there had to be suffering, on the journey. Both our own suffering, and Jesus' suffering.

I think it is interesting to note that John was told that all should be allowed to continue doing what they had been doing, both the unrighteous and the righteous. If Hell was a forever state, would that be the advice? If so, then we are condemning those who do wrong to Hell, forever. And, we know that it is said that Jesus desires ALL to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:

...3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,...

D.

[Dandelion]

I just want to say, I believe we have already been saved...by Jesus' death on the cross, once and for all.

However, we are still in the process of our transformation.....which I believe will be completed when we are all in Heaven with God, and all has been conquered, through Jesus.

In an analogy, Jesus opened the door, by His death on the cross, but we have not walked through the door, yet, until we are all gathered together.............. transformation, completed.

D.