Why “Saved” as opposed to “Healed/Made Whole”?

[GodIsLove]

I just want to say, I believe we have already been saved...by Jesus' death on the cross, once and for all.

However, we are still in the process of our transformation.....which I believe will be completed when we are all in Heaven with God, and all has been conquered, through Jesus.

In an analogy, Jesus opened the door, by His death on the cross, but we have not walked through the door, yet, until we are all gathered together.............. transformation, completed.

D.

Nice, I like it

[marie glen]

I just want to say, I believe we have already been saved...by Jesus' death on the cross, once and for all.

However, we are still in the process of our transformation.....which I believe will be completed when we are all in Heaven with God, and all has been conquered, through Jesus.

In an analogy, Jesus opened the door, by His death on the cross, but we have not walked through the door, yet, until we are all gathered together.............. transformation, completed.

D.

Nice, I like it

Amen! It fits perfectly with the scripture.. 1 Cor 15 towards the end of the chapter, how at the last trump Jesus returns the dead in Him and the live Christians will meet him at His coming.. this mortal, Paul said, must put on immortality.. this corruptible will put on incorruption.. No more getting old.. or people dying.. Ultimately! ...according to the book of revelation it sounds like all dead non-believers are still not resurrected until another 1000 years, during which those in the first resurrection will reign w/Jesus, but I think of it as serving. Also it sounds like there will be earthly survivors (?) idk for sure..

I had a ‘spooky’ thought this morning, reading Genesis’ very first verses. If God is light, what would total darkness be? (To say the least it would be very spooky!)

Bless you sisters! I miss Rosey and Sheila.. Cardinal too.. You miss them? I’m sure you do.. :girlheart:

[MusicLover123]

I had a 'spooky' thought this morning, reading Genesis' very first verses. If God is light, what would total darkness be? (To say the least it would be very spooky!)

Well, wouldn't have God been in total darkness? Even in Genesis 1, it says this:

Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darknessH2822 was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 

H2822
חֹשֶׁךְ
chôshek
kho-shek'
From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.
Total KJV occurrences: 79

H2821
חָשַׁךְ
châshak
khaw-shak'
A primitive root; to be dark (as withholding light); transitively to darken: - be black, be (make) dark, darken, cause darkness, be dim, hide.
Total KJV occurrences: 17

Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 

1Ki_8:12  Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

2Ch_6:1  Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Isa_9:2  The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Joh 12:35  Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 
Joh 12:36  While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

2Co_4:6  For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

[marie glen]

Amen! Thank you for the verses!

I was reading the verses, early Genesis, in the interlinear. I always get the impression the Father, in order to create the universe, matter, he had to 'empty' a space to do so and is why it was first formless and dark. Silly yes? When I read the verse of his saying let there be light and there was light, and then my thought if God is light, what is total dark(ness)? Or.. can there be total darkness? Maybe not? :dontknow:

:Chinscratch: The verses you posted were very good.. He shines in us..

[MusicLover123]

Amen! Thank you for the verses!

I was reading the verses, early Genesis, in the interlinear. I always get the impression the Father, in order to create the universe, matter, he had to 'empty' a space to do so and is why it was first formless and dark. Silly yes? When I read the verse of his saying let there be light and there was light, and then my thought of God is light, what is total dark(ness)? Or.. can there be total darkness? Maybe not? :dontknow:

Heb 8:5  Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 

Heb 9:24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 

Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

So, wouldn't all these things be made to be a shadow of Heavenly things, which are a shadow of it?

I don't know Hebrew, but I've heard that in Genesis, it can also mean "in a beginning." Strong's has other meanings for that word, like first-fruit, principle, etc.

[jabcat]

Amen! It fits perfectly with the scripture.. 1 Cor 15 towards the end of the chapter, how at the last trump Jesus returns the dead in Him and the live Christians will meet him at His coming..all dead non-believers are still not resurrected until another 1000 years

I see your post making a distinction marie, about those believing now (saved) and those yet to believe.

I understand some of the statements made about everyone already saved (or some say, no one saved yet)   "outside of time", as in "is, was, will be", "the Lamb slain before the foundation", etc.  God and His view are "eternal".   But I believe we are still "in time".   And I believe scripture teaches there is an intermediate step, i.e., that some are called and given faith to believe unto salvation in this age.

IMO, to say either no one is yet saved, or that all are already saved, can not be reconciled with the following scriptures. 


what must I do to be saved?...believe on and confess Jesus and you will be saved...

whoever believes on Him will have eternal life

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

those who believe on His name, given the right to be called children of God

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 

[jabcat]

This is a good read. All of it, but especially beginning 2nd paragraph with regard to this discussion;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/msg95116/#msg95116

[MusicLover123]

IMO, to say either no one is yet saved, or that all are already saved, can not be reconciled with the following scriptures...

Not sure James, there are two caveats for me to say some are saved right now.

When it says those who endure to the end and when it puts believing in the present tense. If you and/or God shows me how to reconcile that to say you can be saved now, I will "switch over."

I seem to interpret saved as being perfect and I am definitely not perfect right now.

Can you give me Scriptures on someone who was saved? Not just saying "will be saved" but "was saved." 

[jabcat]

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."


Memory of specifics don't serve me well on disagreements I had with Ray, but I believe this was one of them..salvation.

Let me start with, you (and anyone) will agree there is a time for each person to believe on Jesus?  Become a believer?  Have a turn from sin into faith in Christ (or even as a small child being given the faith to believe and trust Jesus as Savior)?  Whatever one may call that.  Just the basics.  This basic thing.  Coming from one group (unbeliever) to another (believer);  "to those who believe on His name, He gave the right to be called children of God".  That has to happen, right?  At some point, either now or later?  That's what I term being saved.     Details are "what it's called, who are the elect, why the elect, when/if the rest believe", etc...

Next, as for specifics to your post, I'd ask "endure to the end" of what?  What age was that said in, and to whom specifically?  Also, if one CAN put that in context of salvation, then it could very easily fit into the "2nd stage of salvation" suggestion, i.e., the salvation of the soul (works, rewards, loss, etc.), not regeneration/salvation of the spirit (the initial turning to Christ in belief, becoming a child of God IJn 1:12).      There is also the concept of "endurance of the saints", i.e., that believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit and will be sustained unto that day.  That is ensured by Christ.

Eph. 2:8   it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, not of yourselves...gift of God

Some interesting translations of that scripture;

Orthodox Jewish translation;   For by unmerited Chen v'Chesed Hashem you have been delivered from Hashem's Mishpat (Judgment) and granted a share in the Geulah (Redemption), through emunah; and this is not [an einfal (intuitive idea)] of yourselves, it is a matnat Hashem (gift of G-d);

Young's Literal;  for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

More -

I Jn. 5:13  These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Rm. 8:1  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in [present tense] Christ Jesus.

John 10:27  "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them [present tense], and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them [present/active tense], and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.  [the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable]"

[MusicLover123]

Alright, thanks :)

Interesting to note, you could have also noted "now" in Romans 8:1, and not just "in" as present tense.

Curious about the "no life in him" verses:

1 John 3
15Every one who is hating his brother — a man-killer he is, and ye have known that no man-killer hath life age-during in him remaining

John 6
53Jesus, therefore, said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, If ye may not eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and may not drink his blood, ye have no life in yourselves

What are your thoughts on that? What does it mean to have no life left in you? Lose salvation, or were you not truly saved in the first place?

[jabcat]

Without digging into specifics a lot, I tend to think this generally means "spiritually dead", not spiritually regenerated/brought into the body yet.  In one place there is a scripture that talks about "if they go out from among us, they were not really with us".  So yes, I'd think "not saved yet".  Maybe head knowledge, no real change of heart.  "Lord, Lord, but never knew you".

I think there are other possibilities, depending on the verse, situation, etc.  For instance, I believe one can be a believer (initial salvation) but not really grow beyond that, so have limited fellowship with Christ, i.e., walking in the flesh and not the Spirit.  So then are not living in the kingdom, which is "righteousness, peace, and joy, in the Holy Spirit".   I'm not sure that scenario is ever called "dead" though.  The prodigal son was wallowing in muck, but still in the family.  Don't think he was enjoying it though, as the Spirit of Christ and the works of the flesh are not generally comfortable in each others' company, so to speak.   Could probably make this a big discussion :).  These are just some quick initial thoughts,  :2c:, by no means "comprehensive".  :)  :)

[MusicLover123]

Doesn't the father say his son was dead, and now alive?

Do you think someone in the body of Christ could have no life in him? Obviously up to God, but still.

What would salvation of the body look like, when we are changed?

We could make this 60 pages if you want :). Not enough members participate though.

[jabcat]

#1..without looking it up, i think you're right, he did say that.  i'd like to dig into it and see if I can understand it better.  I'll do that in a bit :)  If you do, let me know what you come up with.

#2..wow, hard question.  "up to God", yes.  I personally wouldn't want to make that judgment.  My thought/opinion, is technically, no.  However, one might be viewed or described as that, i.e., ineffective, lukewarm, carnal.  Paul told the Corinthian church he reproved them to their shame;  that they sinned/allowed sin in their midst that not even the world would, namely, one guy was committing adultery with his father's wife.  He said some of them would be saved as by fire, (IMO), lose everything, burned as chaff all but his redeemed (saved) spirit.  And what did he call them?  SAINTS!  :o

#3..The only thing I know about it is, Paul expressly states "when mortal takes on immortality".  Some believe this is an actual body, but with miraculous capabilities and capacity.  Sort of like Jesus' after resurrection, i.e., could appear through walls, etc.  I think there's much speculation beyond that, I honestly don't know.

#4..Keep going :)

[jabcat]

Do you think someone in the body of Christ could have no life in him? Obviously up to God, but still.

  My thought/opinion, is technically, no.  However, one might be viewed or described as that, i.e., ineffective, lukewarm, carnal.

After I posted, this occurred to me.  Since as believers, we're crucified with Christ and it's no longer us that live, but Christ that lives in us..and since we're sealed and kept by the Holy Spirit..and since the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable...I'd think Christ within us, the renewed spirit in us, could not become dead.  All obvious function around it might appear that way..we may even be called that by someone else...but again, I believe technically the answer is no.

I know many disagree with that, many believe one can become a child of God, a child of the devil, then a child of God, then a child of the devil, all based on a person's continued diligence or not (and behavior)..they believe must get saved and re-baptized over and over again.  Paul said to not lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works, but to move forward.  He also says it doesn't depend on him who runs or wills, but on God Who shows mercy.  Also, that nothing can separate us from the love of God...

Yes, much to discuss here  :)   :dsunny:

[jabcat]

Can I put in a note here, in case this becomes lost in the details?

Believe on Jesus as Savior/Saver.

Follow Him as closely as possible, knowing it's all enabled and empowered by Him

He will completely redeem/restore/deliver/heal us - as He sees fit and according to His timing and will.   


Lather, rinse, repeat  :laugh:

[MusicLover123]

Huh, the way I worded one question when typing turned out different than expected. Guess the Spirit wanted otherwise :0)

I'll write it like this: Can someone in the Body of Christ end up with no life in him?

Based on your replies, I am guessing you would say no, and that seems like the best answer. Just wondering if the person with life in him was "saved" in the first place. When it says hates his brother, thinking this is a Spiritual brother in the body, and not a physical one.

I know many disagree with that, many believe one can become a child of God, a child of the devil, then a child of God, then a child of the devil, all based on a person's continued diligence or not (and behavior)

Kind of like flowers. "I love Him, I don't love Him. I love Him, I don't love Him..."

On #3, remember how Paul says a body is made up of many members? Maybe the same here? A thought came before, that maybe the body is manifesting the invisible, not sure. Was doing a little study on a verse in James before, and seems the phrase "vanish away" as a vapor has roots in "hidden in Christ." Also was thinking it may be related to the "cloud of witnesses" as clouds have vapor.

Keep going too :P   :dsunny:

[GodIsLove]

I think we are all children of God, he made us all, we all came from him and will all return. I think the scripture that speaks to someone being a child of the devil is symbolic of not following God/being an adversary and yes I believe Christians can be carnal/adversarial.

But the thing is, the issue of salvation is debated among Christians and has been for a long time as far as I can ascertain.

This famous passage:

James
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So this is another scripture for my "death" being spiritual thread...

But it also highlights that faith without works is DEAD. Pretty strong wording.

Phillipians
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

How can we work out Salvation if it's a one time act?

Matthew 24
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Enduring implies a process, not an event.

Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?

John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

This speaks of what deeds people did, because what is in our heart will manifest outward in what we do and how we act.

Romans 2:5-11
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds; to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; read more.

So if we should take the Bible as a whole, we can't ignore the countless verses that talk about enduring, working out, doing good, etc.

In my opinion, I believe the free gift from God is his love, mercy and forgiveness, his son, his spirit...

But I think to believe in Jesus means to believe what he taught and carry it out in practice. Jesus taught a religion of DOING, not just of believing and sitting back.

He taught of:
Turning the other cheek
Forgiving
Giving up all possessions
Giving to those who are hungry, sick etc
Helping those who are in need etc.

He commanded to love God and our neighbor.

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

Luke
5 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27 He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[a]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."

Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

In this story Jesus preaches of loving and caring for others. Then he tells a story where the hero is a despised Samaritan, not a Jew or Christian.

But this person did the loving thing.

So I believed, like Dandelion, that we aren't perfected yet and are working it out through his spirit.

Works of the law are no longer required but the fruit of the spirit is good works to others in love, and this is part of the picture, not only just a mental nod of belief.

All in my opinion subject to change as the spirit leads.

[GodIsLove]

Bless you sisters! I miss Rosey and Sheila.. Cardinal too.. You miss them? I'm sure you do.. :girlheart:

I DO miss Rose and Sheila and Cardinal, and others too. I'm always sad to see that some no longer post here. Sometimes I think I will take a break but I can't seem to stay away  :friendstu:

[Dandelion]

Bless you sisters! I miss Rosey and Sheila.. Cardinal too.. You miss them? I'm sure you do.. :girlheart:

I DO miss Rose and Sheila and Cardinal, and others too. I'm always sad to see that some no longer post here. Sometimes I think I will take a break but I can't seem to stay away  :friendstu:

I know that I miss them. They were such a big part of this site. I wish they would come back. But, whatever they do, I wish them joy and peace, and many blessings.....always.

D.

[marie glen]

Amen Dandelion.. And great post GodisLove!

And amen Jabcat, and ML..

What an interesting discussion..

I was trying to think of what verse it is that says something about being transplanted, or translated? In the KJ..? :Chinscratch:

Found it! [  https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Translated&qs_version=KJV ] It’s Colossians 1:13 - Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

We’ve been transplanted.. (any gardeners? Lol)

And also, we’ve been “adopted”...

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Legally adopted -

Ephesians 1:5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will..

Can I put in a note here, in case this becomes lost in the details?

Believe on Jesus as Savior/Saver.

Follow Him as closely as possible, knowing it's all enabled and empowered by Him

He will completely redeem/restore/deliver/heal us - as He sees fit and according to His timing and will.   


Lather, rinse, repeat  :laugh:

Amen, a turning point.. faith in Jesus.. we turn, we follow..
————————————————-

note: imo, the churches/people add commandments and rules, but Jesus said His yoke is easy. (Love! By the indwelling/receiving of God’s Holy Spirit. But, of course, the adversary will attempt to throw stumbling blocks in ones path. And in the Greek(?) of His ‘name’ is slanderer.. of one.. of others.. and also, of course, accuser.. (all the same word if I’m remembering correctly.)

That’s where folks get bogged down.. To say we are free, of course, is not free to steal.. murder.. etc! Yet even were one oppressed by an obsession/was a kleptomaniac.. The thing is - i’ve never come across anyone who if they truly had submitted their self to the Lord, yield, yielding & consciously having given their self to Him, I would surely expect to see deliverance. And then the measuring rod is that Spirit of the heart that cries abba father.. His continued guidance and our abiding in his word - and Love! Do we love or dislike the ppl around us? Etc..

I think it’s a thin line.. between examining our walk too little; and examining our walk too much! Ppl I think can get kind of stuck in a place where it’s all about them.. stalled at the threshold, always doubting their adoption! Not able to “rest in Him” cannot escape from self improvement via self effort, which doesn’t work.. Just lean back I always want to say - because “Beneath are the everlasting arms.” “HE is faithful to finish the work in us, which HE has begun” Ephesians?

[GodIsLove]

Amen Dandelion.. And great post GodisLove!

And amen Jabcat, and ML..

What an interesting discussion..

I was trying to think of what verse it is that says something about being transplanted, or translated? In the KJ..? :Chinscratch:

Found it! [  https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Translated&qs_version=KJV ] It's Colossians 1:13 - Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

We've been transplanted.. (any gardeners? Lol)

And also, we've been "adopted"...

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Legally adopted -

Ephesians 1:5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will..

Can I put in a note here, in case this becomes lost in the details?

Believe on Jesus as Savior/Saver.

Follow Him as closely as possible, knowing it's all enabled and empowered by Him

He will completely redeem/restore/deliver/heal us - as He sees fit and according to His timing and will.   


Lather, rinse, repeat  :laugh:

Amen, a turning point.. faith in Jesus.. we turn, we follow..
————————————————-

note: imo, the churches/people add commandments and rules, but Jesus said His yoke is easy. (Love! By the indwelling/receiving of God's Holy Spirit. But, of course, the adversary will attempt to throw stumbling blocks in ones path. And in the Greek(?) of His 'name' is slanderer.. of one.. of others.. and also, of course, accuser.. (all the same word if I'm remembering correctly.)

That's where folks get bogged down.. To say we are free, of course, is not free to steal.. murder.. etc! Yet even were one oppressed by an obsession/was a kleptomaniac.. The thing is - i've never come across anyone who if they truly had submitted their self to the Lord, yield, yielding & consciously having given their self to Him, I would surely expect to see deliverance. And then the measuring rod is that Spirit of the heart that cries abba father.. His continued guidance and our abiding in his word - and Love! Do we love or dislike the ppl around us? Etc..

I think it's a thin line.. between examining our walk too little; and examining our walk too much! Ppl I think can get kind of stuck in a place where it's all about them.. stalled at the threshold, always doubting their adoption! Not able to "rest in Him" cannot escape from self improvement via self effort, which doesn't work.. Just lean back I always want to say - because "Beneath are the everlasting arms." "HE is faithful to finish the work in us, which HE has begun" Ephesians?

Yes I agree! Especially with your last three paragraphs! Some try to say we need to follow all of these laws, like mosaic law or church customs. Some try to complicate the simplicity in Christ but some water it down too much IMO. I agree it's a fine line.

All from Galatians:
I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised (a stipulation of one of the Mosaic laws) that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

...so we are definitely not under the law or under oppressive rituals or rules.

Because:

2 Corinthians 3:3
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

So I'm in agreement that we don't have to do much other than trust and believe BUT I do think it is a working out and a process of endurance.

Rose always spoke of the battle of carnal and spiritual within her and I feel we all have that, and we are progressing to learn to hear the voice of the spirit, listen and follow the spirit, trust the spirit...

The only reason we are ahead of others is that we are undergoing this process now instead of later.

They are IMO being brought to a place where they will eventually say yes to the spirit as well, whether that is being saved by the destruction of flesh by the adversary so they can be saved:

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Another one for my "ways to be saved" post!

Anyway...in some ways it is simpler than we make it but in other ways I believe it is more intricate and deep.

[MusicLover123]

I think some would call "enduring to the end" overcoming/the overcomers, and that would then be an argument why no one is saved yet.

[lastpost]

In short, how I view both the Saving and Healing aspects associated with Jesus Christ, is that should one hear the call of Christ to fully repent of sinful behaviour and turn to God, and from then onwards continually turn to God through love for Christ and the God He expresses, which is to turn from evil as a consequence - then Christ has saved that one by setting them upon on a path of healing though His grace. Indeed, saved by grace.

As I understand it, the image of the Christ who is Love, who came forth from the God who is Love, shall - in a time far from now perhaps, whether here on this little planet or in one of those many spiritual abiding places spoken of by Christ - shall arise in the heart and mind in every one of His children in every situation, because of His approachability, His simplicity, His friendship, His omnipresence. He is the Answer to all problems: mental, material and spiritual.

Looking at current affairs in the world today, to some it may seem a strange claim that each one should have Christ arise in their hearts and minds. But, according to my understanding, the world is actually quite young regarding its peopling, and while man has put up a valiant fight at times, he has yet to grasp the deeper meaning of the Christ's life on earth as man.

I believe that Christendom, as a whole, with its many confining doctrines, has not been able to see the wood for the trees; and that the Holy Spirit seeks, by diverse means, to function beyond the boundaries that man has set for His working; and that in time to come the apparent separate pieces of the puzzle shall secretly slide into place, slowly and over time, not unlike the movement of the earth's crust rejoining beneath the great oceans which are not seen unaided.

The old doctrines can be revered, as strange as it may sound to some, in the sense that they have had a deep impact on those who adhered to them because they violated God's laws far less – in other words, they sinned less – and it is "sin" that is the crux of the matter, in my opinion.

Looking at an extreme example perhaps: it has been taught by some men in the name of Christianity (which has influenced the whole), that a life-long debased human being, one who has lived a degraded existence of greed, debauchery, sloth and wickedness, can be somehow excused the consequences of his sin-stained life by confirming some theological statement or other on his death bed, affirming, out of self-interest, ideas and concepts alien to his character and which have filled him with loathing all his life.

And, in this death-bed example, for the character to become Christ-like, then it seems plain that an after-death existence must be undertaken in order to achieve this; contemplating an "instant" Divine-purity of character for such a self-centred sot is surely foolishness - the Supreme God has chosen other ways to bring the spiritual character of His children on, as daily experience in this world of sense indicates clearly, so it seems to me. While God and His angels affect and influence the children of God for good, the children are still permitted their choices: "Let him who is filthy be filthy still".

True, if genuine repentance is given, it is the beginning of a deeply embedded association with the Person of Christ, and, as such, the course of actions and the intent behind them should now be from a position of the awakened Christ within, although deeply ingrained habits will have a pull towards previous sinful ways at first ("Go, and do not sin again"). But, in my opinion, this is far removed the removal of the consequences of past sin - and this is what has been glossed over by many in the doctrines of yore.

What an extreme opposite to the statements that declare that what a man sows, so shall he reap; or by whatever measure a man gives, so shall it be measured to him. And this for both good and ill.

When Christ spoke of keeping His word* throughout the Aeon and never seeing death, it is clear, in my opinion, that He was referring to not "sinning", that is, violating His the laws of Love – the laws of Love which He demonstrated in Person and which were expounded from His lips – the laws of the Kingdom of God.

* "emon logon" ⇔ "my word/saying"
- a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
- a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
- anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative

And Christ always accompanied His promise of a future superabundant life with warnings about wrong conduct and motives; because, in my opinion, to speak of one without the other is not only to mislead a hearer but indeed to betray them.

It is, in my opinion, the law of consequences which should be clearly laid out for humanity to consider, "that everyone may receive the things done in the body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad".

For I am certain that sin would be dramatically reduced in this world should it be known that each act in this life is sowing a seed which will produce a harvest of either healthy grain or poisonous weeds; that wilful, intentional sin must be rectified by agonising effort over time to come, in discomfort, shame and despair; that the creator of sinful consequences must gather the knotted threads of the chord of his or her life and slowly weave them back to a harmonious whole.

It should be known, in my opinion, that accountability for all words, deeds and influences is inescapable, where all such actions performed by the Doer are as a stone dropped in a pond causing wavelets and wrinkles to spread out indeterminably; so malignant influences are reaped with painful remorse, while the good influence may yield a crop of healthy food - at least once that which is venomous has been expiated.

It is my opinion that immediately following and thereafter to injurious and malevolent deeds and intentions by the Doer - injurious to oneself and others – is the attribution of results to the Doer by God's unchanging laws, "for he that does a wrong shall receive the wrong he has done, there is no favouritism"; and such laws work on continuously until the genesis of those baleful thoughts, deeds and motives has been cleansed.

And what of the cries of injustice from the man or woman who sees the apparent victory of evil everywhere they look?

Only when the inviolable laws that ensure the sowing and the reaping of good and ill, the giving out and the receiving back in like measure, only when these are expressed as not being able to be circumvented by either doctrine or man's cunning, shall humankind have unshakable confidence that God really is in control of every thought and action - or more correctly perhaps, the Supreme oversees the minutest thought even before it has happened - only then shall men and women know that Christ is there to companion the downtrodden in their tribulations, and that the Holy Spirit is there to guide and make plain the perfect and incorruptible Divine Justice which can never fail.

[marie glen]

I think some would call "enduring to the end" overcoming/the overcomers, and that would then be an argument why no one is saved yet.

Perhaps a true believer is both saved, and being saved..

In short, how I view both the Saving and Healing aspects associated with Jesus Christ, is that should one hear the call of Christ to fully repent of sinful behaviour and turn to God, and from then onwards continually turn to God through love for Christ and the God He expresses, which is to turn from evil as a consequence - then Christ has saved that one by setting them upon on a path of healing though His grace. Indeed, saved by grace.

As I understand it, the image of the Christ who is Love, who came forth from the God who is Love, shall - in a time far from now perhaps, whether here on this little planet or in one of those many spiritual abiding places spoken of by Christ - shall arise in the heart and mind in every one of His children in every situation, because of His approachability, His simplicity, His friendship, His omnipresence. He is the Answer to all problems: mental, material and spiritual.

Looking at current affairs in the world today, to some it may seem a strange claim that each one should have Christ arise in their hearts and minds. But, according to my understanding, the world is actually quite young regarding its peopling, and while man has put up a valiant fight at times, he has yet to grasp the deeper meaning of the Christ’s life on earth as man.

I believe that Christendom, as a whole, with its many confining doctrines, has not been able to see the wood for the trees; and that the Holy Spirit seeks, by diverse means, to function beyond the boundaries that man has set for His working; and that in time to come the apparent separate pieces of the puzzle shall secretly slide into place, slowly and over time, not unlike the movement of the earth’s crust rejoining beneath the great oceans which are not seen unaided.

The old doctrines can be revered, as strange as it may sound to some, in the sense that they have had a deep impact on those who adhered to them because they violated God’s laws far less – in other words, they sinned less – and it is “sin” that is the crux of the matter, in my opinion.

Looking at an extreme example perhaps: it has been taught by some men in the name of Christianity (which has influenced the whole), that a life-long debased human being, one who has lived a degraded existence of greed, debauchery, sloth and wickedness, can be somehow excused the consequences of his sin-stained life by confirming some theological statement or other on his death bed, affirming, out of self-interest, ideas and concepts alien to his character and which have filled him with loathing all his life.

And, in this death-bed example, for the character to become Christ-like, then it seems plain that an after-death existence must be undertaken in order to achieve this; contemplating an “instant” Divine-purity of character for such a self-centred sot is surely foolishness - the Supreme God has chosen other ways to bring the spiritual character of His children on, as daily experience in this world of sense indicates clearly, so it seems to me. While God and His angels affect and influence the children of God for good, the children are still permitted their choices: “Let him who is filthy be filthy still”.

True, if genuine repentance is given, it is the beginning of a deeply embedded association with the Person of Christ, and, as such, the course of actions and the intent behind them should now be from a position of the awakened Christ within, although deeply ingrained habits will have a pull towards previous sinful ways at first (“Go, and do not sin again”). But, in my opinion, this is far removed the removal of the consequences of past sin - and this is what has been glossed over by many in the doctrines of yore.

What an extreme opposite to the statements that declare that what a man sows, so shall he reap; or by whatever measure a man gives, so shall it be measured to him. And this for both good and ill.

When Christ spoke of keeping His word* throughout the Aeon and never seeing death, it is clear, in my opinion, that He was referring to not “sinning”, that is, violating His the laws of Love – the laws of Love which He demonstrated in Person and which were expounded from His lips – the laws of the Kingdom of God.

* "emon logon" ⇔ "my word/saying"
- a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
- a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
- anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative

And Christ always accompanied His promise of a future superabundant life with warnings about wrong conduct and motives; because, in my opinion, to speak of one without the other is not only to mislead a hearer but indeed to betray them.

It is, in my opinion, the law of consequences which should be clearly laid out for humanity to consider, "that everyone may receive the things done in the body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad".

For I am certain that sin would be dramatically reduced in this world should it be known that each act in this life is sowing a seed which will produce a harvest of either healthy grain or poisonous weeds; that wilful, intentional sin must be rectified by agonising effort over time to come, in discomfort, shame and despair; that the creator of sinful consequences must gather the knotted threads of the chord of his or her life and slowly weave them back to a harmonious whole.

It should be known, in my opinion, that accountability for all words, deeds and influences is inescapable, where all such actions performed by the Doer are as a stone dropped in a pond causing wavelets and wrinkles to spread out indeterminably; so malignant influences are reaped with painful remorse, while the good influence may yield a crop of healthy food - at least once that which is venomous has been expiated.

It is my opinion that immediately following and thereafter to injurious and malevolent deeds and intentions by the Doer - injurious to oneself and others – is the attribution of results to the Doer by God’s unchanging laws, "for he that does a wrong shall receive the wrong he has done, there is no favouritism"; and such laws work on continuously until the genesis of those baleful thoughts, deeds and motives has been cleansed.

And what of the cries of injustice from the man or woman who sees the apparent victory of evil everywhere they look?

Only when the inviolable laws that ensure the sowing and the reaping of good and ill, the giving out and the receiving back in like measure, only when these are expressed as not being able to be circumvented by either doctrine or man’s cunning, shall humankind have unshakable confidence that God really is in control of every thought and action - or more correctly perhaps, the Supreme oversees the minutest thought even before it has happened - only then shall men and women know that Christ is there to companion the downtrodden in their tribulations, and that the Holy Spirit is there to guide and make plain the perfect and incorruptible Divine Justice which can never fail.

:thumbsup: Very interesting!  :Chinscratch: I think reaping and sowing - as a natural and built in natural law - makes a lot more sense (logos/logic) than God chasing folks around to punish them.. I also think He is life itself, so another natural law (to me, that He seems to be teaching(?) is that to wander away from Him / out of His will/reality, is to walk away from life - because He is life, itself, that vitality - which if not rescued off the path of death, such a one will perish, because once something, or someone becomes flawed / imperfect, as opposed to His Perfection.. Could imperfect ever make itself perfect? When its nature is imperfection? So if God is life and also Perfection, it makes, to my mind, imperfection the opposite of life.

This can be in all degrees of imperfection/death. Since imperfection/"missing the mark"-translated sin leads to and results in, death, it is, in essence, death already. But, i figure that ultimately, imperfection cannot be immortal but must fade away. Because it's He who is life. So to me, this learning of good from evil, is to learn ultimately that there is no living, no life, apart from Him. It's simple impossible.

"Why call Me good?" Jesus said, "there is only One good". He is life.. all the trees in the garden.. (so to speak, not Pantheism, lol). And there's just the one.. But such a broad way.. A broad way one cannot save their self from. So I figure God thought, heck, let's get this out of the way! We'll (Father & Son) put them all, in heaven and earth through this now all at once, together.. A thousand years are like a day in His sight..

Just think though.. all the complaints of the world how God is so mean to let life be so imperfect.. But He is life. Doesn't that mean He experiences it all?

There is nothing anyone can say about God which should bother us in any way.. He is unadulterated goodness and love.. We can be sure He has done all things, and is doing, all things, in just the way He has, in order to bring about the utter best of all possibilities.. which possibilities, surely, were spread out before His omnipotent sight before he ever began the work of creation.

There so much we don't know and we're not aware of.. But whatever He has in mind, it will be perfect.
This age and following ages I believe we are learning, being imprinted with His words, thoughts, will..
It's His will we see now as through a glass darkly.. but we do see a little.. :thumbsup:

[sheila]

 :2c: I believ'whole'has the connotation of free from weakness/affliction/infirmity/injury.A soundness of being..like say....incorruption and

immortality. I think of this when I read the new heaven/earth creation.No sickness/tears,cold/hunger/death[lack of any kind if youwill.]

Basically,I readit as 'snatched'/saved/delivered from the will of the wicked one with it's

accompanying/plagues/afflictions/death/poverty/lack........

and healed/made whole/no lack..into a great thriving abundance of life and joy in our eternal estate


God's mercy,love ,power, and grace delivering us from our pitiful state. Him straitening the crooked,strengthening the weak,making

firm the 'wobbley',healing the sick,bringing the dead tolife,giving sight to the blind,opening the earsof the deaf..understanding to

the confused,intellect to those who lack intelligence,speech to the mute. Saying unto those to whom It had beensaid..

'not MY people!' that 'YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD!!"

We shall all be rejoicing and praising Him forever..knowing how very blessed we are..that He is ours..and we are His.