Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 04, 2011, 09:41:09 PM
"to die in my stead"
That is a lie from the bowels of satan.
While He did die for us in was BY NO MEANS INSTEAD OF US.
We must go to the cross, pick it up and follow Him.
He is the pattern.
well I disagree. But that's ok.
He took on our sin and gave us his righteousness.
Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2011, 11:41:49 PM
He took on our sin and gave us his righteousness.
I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly. If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing. Now on topic; just as, IMO, the main point of the prodigal son is about the Father - the sons, though important, are results of the Father's action. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 02:16:56 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2011, 11:41:49 PM
He took on our sin and gave us his righteousness.
I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly. If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing. Now on topic; just as, IMO, the main point of the prodigal son is about the Father - the sons, though important, are results of the Father's action. :2c:
"the main point of the prodigal son is about the Father - the sons, though important, are results of the Father's action. :2c:"
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 02:16:56 AM
I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly. If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.
Well that's just stating the obvious but the fact remains that He says
if any of you wants to be my follower, pick up your cross and follow me.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 05, 2011, 04:20:11 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 02:16:56 AM
I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly. If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.
Well that's just stating the obvious but the fact remains that He says if any of you wants to be my follower, pick up your cross and follow me.
Some things actually don't seem obvious to all. OK, so you indicate you get that. However, as I understand, taking up our cross is not how we're saved. That would be works based. We're saved by His death and resurrection, and His giving us faith to trust in that and in Him. It's the new birth, being born again. In that regard, I'll contend He did take our place. If you don't see it that way, OK, but I believe there is that other side to it. You nor I either one are able to decide to take up our cross and by that somehow save ourselves. Also, I don't believe He was "just" our pattern. In the main regard, He was our Substitute. Our sacrifice.
Reconciling the verses and precepts;
taking up our cross, saved by grace through faith.
I do believe we will deny ourselves and live a life "set apart", i.e., take up our cross. I don't believe though that's by our own effort, or is how we're saved. I believe it's a result of the Holy Spirit working through the believer after his/her moment of salvation. Sanctification, and it's ongoing. Paul said we're saved by grace, not works.
IMO, a thing to consider is, when Jesus said what He did about taking up our cross, He was talking to a young man and a people who were still under the Old Covenant, pre-cross, pre age of grace - pre-sacrifice. It was a transitional period. He had come to His people, Israel. He was physically present, teaching them about coming to know Him personally/intimately, i.e., entering the kingdom, and what they needed to do to do that.
It's important for our learning, but after the cross and resurrection, Paul gave us, the nations, a later word. :2c:
There is absolutely no one but God's Christ who was worthy to hang on the cross of Calvary. Period.
Your missing the point, entirely.
There is 30 fold, 60 fold and 100 fold.
If you want to follow Him — you must go too.
There is one Way to the Holy of Holies, and that is your cross.
Not of your own works, lol, even the thought is ludicrous, lol — His grace will get you there.
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 06:24:59 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 05, 2011, 04:20:11 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 02:16:56 AM
I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly. If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.
Well that's just stating the obvious but the fact remains that He says if any of you wants to be my follower, pick up your cross and follow me.
Some things actually don't seem obvious to all. OK, so you indicate you get that. However, as I understand, taking up our cross is not how we're saved. That would be works based. We're saved by His death and resurrection, and His giving us faith to trust in that and in Him. It's the new birth, being born again. In that regard, I'll contend He did take our place. If you don't see it that way, OK, but I believe there is that other side to it. You nor I either one are able to decide to take up our cross and by that somehow save ourselves. Also, I don't believe He was "just" our pattern. In the main regard, He was our Substitute. Our sacrifice.
Should Jesus have died on the cross "instead" of us, then one has to ask why do we still have to die? Jesus died "for" us. For our sins, He was the Lamb without spot or blemish.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Amen.
He paved the Way.
Opened the doors.
Redeemed the flesh.
Wonder of wonders, pick up your cross old man and follow Me.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 05, 2011, 07:06:43 AM
There is absolutely no one but God's Christ who was worthy to hang on the cross of Calvary. Period.
Your missing the point, entirely.
There is 30 fold, 60 fold and 100 fold.
If you want to follow Him — you must go too.
There is one Way to the Holy of Holies, and that is your cross.
Not of your own works, lol, even the thought is ludicrous, lol — His grace will get you there.
K.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 07:09:49 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 06:24:59 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 05, 2011, 04:20:11 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 02:16:56 AM
I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly. If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.
Well that's just stating the obvious but the fact remains that He says if any of you wants to be my follower, pick up your cross and follow me.
Some things actually don't seem obvious to all. OK, so you indicate you get that. However, as I understand, taking up our cross is not how we're saved. That would be works based. We're saved by His death and resurrection, and His giving us faith to trust in that and in Him. It's the new birth, being born again. In that regard, I'll contend He did take our place. If you don't see it that way, OK, but I believe there is that other side to it. You nor I either one are able to decide to take up our cross and by that somehow save ourselves. Also, I don't believe He was "just" our pattern. In the main regard, He was our Substitute. Our sacrifice.
Should Jesus have died on the cross "instead" of us, then one has to ask why do we still have to die? Jesus died "for" us. For our sins, He was the Lamb without spot or blemish.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Thanks micah for at least discussing this in a pleasant manner, but I think I'll suggest we get back on topic. :) It's a good point though brother.
It just occurred to me that maybe you are unfamiliar with these Scriptures that should absolutely not be ignored.
Jesus said in Luke 9:23;
Then he said to them all: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.
Paul reiterates this in 1 Corinthians 15:31;
I die every day--I mean that, brothers--just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And continues with Galatians 2:20;
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Covered that here;
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 06:51:11 AM
I do believe we will deny ourselves and live a life "set apart", i.e., take up our cross. Sanctification, and it's ongoing.
What exactly was the "point missed entirely"? You know, I have certainly missed points before, and will again. But it's funny how those type of statements come back around, isn't it?
That's because the conversation degraded from Molly's first remark.
She disagreed that we too must go to the cross. (post 33)
Then you agreed with her. (post 35)
Yes and the old man is dead.
Gal 5:24 and those who are Christ's, the flesh did crucify with the affections, and the desires;
And continues with Galatians 2:20;
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
We are dead, as Elwin Roach wrote, "Why seek ye the living amongest the dead?" the old man is dead, we die dayliy as is said in Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Rom 7:17 and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me,
Rom 7:18 for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find,
Rom 7:19 for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise.
Look again. I agreed with Molly saying "He took our sin and gave us His righteousness". I still and will always agree with that.
And as far as saying someone missed the point - it's very possible there's more than one point, or that the person speaking (typing) may be thinking something they're not fully expressing, or the two people see it differently and get something different out of it, or ...
I just think it would be desirable to discuss things pleasantly and in a friendly manner, and if not, then I'd rather not.
I agree with that too.
Her post, however, reads as though she is dismissing the words of Jesus telling us to pick up our cross and follow him.
I thought you were agreeing with her whole statement.
And while he did "take" the sins of the world, then why do people still sin?
See the mystery?
I just honor and reverence the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.
lol, and I've yet to call anyone, bitter!
Well, that's good that you honor the Lord, it really is. I haven't called anyone bitter either, right? However, it is very hard to really know where someone's coming from, what's in their heart, or what their motives are in this black and white format. Although sometimes I really do have a smart mouth, and although He's really worked with me on curtailing it, and sometimes I must back-track and "fix" things, it's still likely I may come across as being snarky, insulting, making inuendo, etc. - and I imagine it's that way with others that post. So whether intentional or not, it is very possible to come across as unpleasant or bitter. I have personal experience. :dontknow:
Now, as far as "the mystery"; this is an honest question. Does it say somewhere specifically, regarding that particular passage or concept, that it's a mystery? Because I understand it to mean that He took the consequences/result of our sin. Thus at least in part, how His death and resurrection brought us salvation and life. Legal sin debt paid, not eternally dead, to return to, and remain, dust.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 05, 2011, 08:25:39 AM
I agree with that too.
Her post, however, reads as though she is dismissing the words of Jesus telling us to pick up our cross and follow him.
I thought you were agreeing with her whole statement.
And while he did "take" the sins of the world, then why do people still sin?
See the mystery?
No, I didn't dismiss that. Sorry I didn't make that more clear. I thought about saying something. It's a mysterious statement--pick up your cross. It has meant different things to me at different times in my life. I'm thinking now, it has everything to do with overcoming whatever he puts in our path. Anyway, you are right, he did say we had to do that, whatever it means. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 06:24:59 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 05, 2011, 04:20:11 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 02:16:56 AM
I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly. If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.
Well that's just stating the obvious but the fact remains that He says if any of you wants to be my follower, pick up your cross and follow me.
Some things actually don't seem obvious to all. OK, so you indicate you get that. However, as I understand, taking up our cross is not how we're saved.
Dunno. I find the word cross so loaded. The correct translation staff gives a much milder meaning to the verse. Even a totally different meaning if the staff is that of a shepherd
I find 'staff' intriguing. Can you elaborate please? Thanks.
Does it not mean more a stake or post? I do not find staff as something for punishment or crucifiction, course it may be just me.
Micah asked --if he died in our stead, then why do we still die?[physically]
I think it's because we are born out of due time [early birth]. We are meant for another age when we will be completely redeemed. But, being firstfruits, we have to wait for the next age to receive the whole inheritance--namely, as Paul says, the redemption of the body.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 09:00:00 AM
Does it not mean more a stake or post? I do not find staff as something for punishment or crucifiction, course it may be just me.
I don't think it does. I don't know what ww is talking about lol.
Other than the obvious means of crucifixion, it can imply self denial. But, the meaning of self denial is something else to be discussed.
Should Jesus have died on the cross "instead" of us, then one has to ask why do we still have to die? Jesus died "for" us. For our sins, He was the Lamb without spot or blemish.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Jesus died on the cross as a lamb without blemish, this was the sacrifce that was to be offered. He died for our sins, not instead. We all must die, Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Stauros is a "general word"
Means something like stake, stick, staff.
A bit of common sense (no pun intended!) goes a long way too.
Today take up your cross has a powerful (symbolic) meaning. A cross is a sign of Christianity. etc etc
But when Jesus spoke those words He wasn't crucified yet. Only He knew the was gonna happen.
His followers were Jews would believed He was promised Messiah that was gonna wipe out all their enemies. Not die on the cross like a criminal...
Besides of that a cross was to heavy to carry. I was a Roman thing, not Jewish. And if it had a religious meaning it was pagan.
It signifies the rebirth of the sun.
To recap:
- The symbolic meaning of the cross wasn't established yet.
- The real cross was way to heavy to carry. John was a real follower of Jesus. Do you think he took a 300 pound cross and walked to Patmos? :winkgrin:
BTW Jesus wasn't nailed to a cross like we see in church. But that's a whole other (old) topic. :winkgrin:
micah, i accidentally "modified" your post by accident, trying to make this one. sorry, i didn't actually change anything. :mblush:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 09:15:49 AM
Should Jesus have died on the cross "instead" of us, then one has to ask why do we still have to die? Jesus died "for" us. For our sins, He was the Lamb without spot or blemish.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Jesus died on the cross as a lamb without blemish, this was the sacrifce that was to be offered. He died for our sins, not instead. We all must die, Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Well, it occurs to me that words (such as in the song, "died in my stead") can be picked at, rather than looking at what was meant (I do it, most of us do. Sometimes useful, maybe sometimes not). Stead means "The place or role that someone or something should have or fill". The song says "Jesus chose the road to Calvary to die in my stead". Before His death, it
was our stead to "die in our trespasses and sins". But He took those [the consequences of those] inSTEAD. He took those sins on Himself and died with them on Him - inSTEAD of us. He settled the debt for us, so we wouldn't be eternally dead [or eternally "without hope"]. IN THAT SENSE (which I happen to believe the song may be talking about in the first place), I think it reasonable to draw that connection.
Of course we still have to die (most of us believe) physically - unless we're alive when He comes again to begin the next age. And after being born again, with the process of sanctification we die daily [spiritually]. But I'll say that's not what the song is talking about. It nowhere says "we don't have to physically or die", or "we don't have to be sanctified, set apart, i.e., "die daily" - it's talking about our salvation, what Jesus did to secure that - because we couldn't!
So...............maybe it depends on what one
means when they say "Jesus died in my stead". Can the "non-steaders" :laughing7: see that view at all, or do you insist it has to be the other way? (If so, you can see it that way, but I also can see the
other connections). :2c:
"- The real cross was way to heavy to carry. John was a real follower of Jesus. Do you think he took a 300 pound cross and walked to Patmos? :winkgrin:"
My friend you miss the whole meaning of take up your cross( the heaviness of warding off the powers that desire one to fall) it is not about the weight of an object such as a cross, or stump or what ever. It does not imply a physical thing.
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 09:45:13 AM
micah, i accidentally "modified" your post by accident, trying to make this one. sorry, i didn't actually change anything. :mblush:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 09:15:49 AM
Should Jesus have died on the cross "instead" of us, then one has to ask why do we still have to die? Jesus died "for" us. For our sins, He was the Lamb without spot or blemish.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Jesus died on the cross as a lamb without blemish, this was the sacrifce that was to be offered. He died for our sins, not instead. We all must die, Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Well, it occurs to me that words (such as in the song, "died in my stead") can be picked at, rather than looking at what was meant (I do it, most of us do. Sometimes useful, maybe sometimes not). Stead means "The place or role that someone or something should have or fill". The song says "Jesus chose the road to Calvary to die in my stead". Before His death, it was our stead to "die in our trespasses and sins". But He took those [the consequences of those] inSTEAD. He took those sins on Himself and died with them on Him - inSTEAD of us. He settled the debt for us, so we wouldn't be eternally dead [or eternally "without hope"]. IN THAT SENSE (which I happen to believe the song may be talking about in the first place), I think it reasonable to draw that connection. Of course we still have to die (most of us believe) physically - unless we're alive when He comes again to begin the next age. And after being born again, with the process of sanctification we die daily [spiritually]. But I'll say that's not what the song is talking about. It nowhere says "we don't have to physically or die", or "we don't have to be sanctified, set apart, i.e., "die daily" - it's talking about our salvation, what Jesus did to secure that - because we couldn't!
So...............maybe it depends on what one means when they say "Jesus died in my stead". Can the "non-steaders" :laughing7: see that view at all, or do you insist it has to be the other way? (If so, you can see it that way, but I also can see the other connections). :2c:
A religious song may be sung or wrote with such words for mans acceptance but that does not make it so. Remember man is writing songs to make man feel good. You may believe in the rapture or not, do you believe that the words in "Ill Fly Away" is a song that bears a truth of the Word?
Quote from: wwStauros is a "general word"
Means something like stake, stick, staff.
Here's what e-sword says:
G4716
σταυρός
staurosstow-ros'
From the base of G2476; a stake or post (as set upright), that is, (specifically) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively exposure to death, that is, self denial; by implication the atonement of Christ: - cross.
Interestingly, it comes from the base of this important word.
G2476
ἵστημι
histēmihis'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);
to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.
Histemi is used in this verse:
Rom 5:2 By 1223 whom 3739 also 2532 we have 2192 access 4318 by faith 4102 into 1519 this 5026 grace 5485 wherein 1722 3739
we stand2476 , and 2532 rejoice 2744 in 1909 hope 1680 of the glory 1391 of God 2316.
Where does it read that Jesus died in my stead, or He died in stead of me? He died, He was the lamb without blemish, as we are told that was the sacrifice needed. He gave up His life because of love.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 10:00:43 AM
Where does it read that Jesus died in my stead, or He died in stead of me? He died, He was the lamb without blemish, as we are told that was the sacrifice needed. He gave up His life because of love.
He died so that we could live.
who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
--1Thess 5:10
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 10:00:43 AM
Where does it read that Jesus died in my stead, or He died in stead of me? He died, He was the lamb without blemish, as we are told that was the sacrifice needed. He gave up His life because of love.
The whole point of animal (sheep/goat) sacrifice was to cover sins. And the Lamb sacrifice took sin away.
The wages of sin is death.
If sin is taken away humanity is no longer recieving their wages (death).
Quote from: Molly on August 05, 2011, 09:56:44 AM
Quote from: wwStauros is a "general word"
Means something like stake, stick, staff.
Here's what e-sword says:
"The Greek word stauros means staff, stake , pole, or beam, corresponding to the Hebrew word nas, which the serpent Nehushtan was lifted up with in the desert (John 3:14, Numbers 2:19; 2 Kings 18:4)." (Lew White, Fossilized Customs, 8th ed., p.114).
http://www.yaim.org/web/literature/other-topics/163-didyahshuadieonacross.html
We were going to physically die and stay dead, meaning you were taking the consequences ["wages", quote WW] of sin to the grave with us. InSTEAD, Jesus took those sins upon Himself and legally paid the price - inSTEAD of you or me having to. That's how I'm seeing it. I'm not saying we don't have to ever physically die, or figuratively/spiritually die daily. That would be "the serpent's lie", IMO. But that's not what I'm saying, or necessarily believe the song is saying. He died, to pay the eternal price for sin, inSTEAD of you and me . So I'm just seeing that He died the death of the criminal, in our stead. Otherwise, we'd still owe the sin debt, which He has taken off our account. :bigGrin: After all this, bottom line, right?
"Believe on the Lord Jesus. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. !!! :thumbsup:
Yeah, I'm interested in that staff. A shepherd's staff was mostly gentle. Used to pull, gently prod - to lead. It would also follow that "kings and priests" shepherding the nations might carry a staff. (Not to do away with sanctification, spiritually dying daily.) Wondering more though what Jesus meant. Again, I maintain He was speaking at the time to a man and a people (Israel) still under the old covenant (not that there aren't spiritual principles for us). Just sayin', rightly divide, and there may be more to be discovered.
Maybe we need to see what everyone means by their terms - starting with die and live.
What are we saying the serpent meant by live and die? Jesus, as in "will never die", "I am the way, the truth, and the life"? Is it possible they mean different and/or multiple things? Maybe we're talking "around/by" each other, with different definitions of terms in our heads.
:eyebrow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2011, 10:20:34 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 05, 2011, 09:56:44 AM
Quote from: wwStauros is a "general word"
Means something like stake, stick, staff.
Here's what e-sword says:
"The Greek word stauros means staff, stake , pole, or beam, corresponding to the Hebrew word nas, which the serpent Nehushtan was lifted up with in the desert (John 3:14, Numbers 2:19; 2 Kings 18:4)." (Lew White, Fossilized Customs, 8th ed., p.114).
http://www.yaim.org/web/literature/other-topics/163-didyahshuadieonacross.html
It is difficult for to picture one crucified on a staff? I will not debate, perhaps a staff is stable enough to hold a human being, but then I have no idea what the implement was that Jesus was nailed to. I do know what He was hung with His hands and feet nailed, I can understand an upright post or stake, I am not seeing a staff.
G4464 rhabdos a stick or wand (as a cudgel, a cane or a baton of royalty): - rod, sceptre, staff.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 10:55:45 AM
It is difficult for to picture one crucified on a staff?
Agreed. A staff much like a broomstick. It will break. You can't even drive a nail into it.
Stauros is a multi purpose word with many meanings. From smal thing sticks to huge tree like things. Even the wooden poles/piles old houses have under their foundation.
I think Jesus was nailed to a (Olive) tree. (remember Jesus was nailed to green tree)
I think this goes way off-topic. Better continue here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/church_removes_cross_to_be_more_inclusive_8301.msg98233.html#msg98233
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 10:43:22 AM
Maybe we need to see what everyone means by their terms - starting with die and live.
What are we saying the serpent meant by live and die? Jesus, as in "will never die", "I am the way, the truth, and the life"? Is it possible they mean different and/or multiple things? Maybe we're talking "around/by" each other, with different definitions of terms in our heads.
:eyebrow:
The serpent and God used the word die. So Adam and Eve must have known the concept death. Did they only know the concept from animals around them? What kind of death the serpent spoke about? Body? Spirit?
How did they know the concept of dying? By what animals dying? I do not believe in has anything to do with body or spirit.
Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 08:33:07 AM
Now, as far as "the mystery"; this is an honest question. Does it say somewhere specifically, regarding that particular passage or concept, that it's a mystery? Because I understand it to mean that He took the consequences/result of our sin. Thus at least in part, how His death and resurrection brought us salvation and life. Legal sin debt paid, not eternally dead, to return to, and remain, dust.
Shown below, Micah pointed it out last night, just moments before your post above.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 08:16:59 AM
Yes and the old man is dead.
Gal 5:24 and those who are Christ's, the flesh did crucify with the affections, and the desires;
And continues with Galatians 2:20;
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
We are dead, as Elwin Roach wrote, "Why seek ye the living amongest the dead?" the old man is dead, we die dayliy as is said in Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Rom 7:17 and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me,
Rom 7:18 for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find,
Rom 7:19 for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise.
And amen Micah.
Lord please, heal my heart.
I think the 'son of God' in us,,[the very image of the Father],,is put to death[crucified] in us...when..the man of sin in us lives[image of corruptible]...
bearing our sins on the cross...He died in our stead...and was raised up out of death[Jordan/descend] to show us that the 'SON OF GOD" in us
LIVES. 'come forth of the grave'..WHEN MAN OF SIN IN US IS PUT TO DEATH[become 'sin']
we being told to crucify our flesh..in respect to wickedness[man of sin] so that 'CHRIST" or SON OF GOD May LIVE IN US
the Baptism in the Jordan in symbol of repentance...the Holy spirit descends...and Father announces 'THIS IS MY SON'....we received a 'token'
at this time of the Holy spirit...to walk in the way of righteousness..until the full redemption...when the man of sin[this body of death] is done away with at the breath
of HIS COMING[ resurrection/revealing of sons of God]
farewell
Oh well,
goodbye, don't cry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxMnr0pM78U
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2011, 12:30:11 PM
Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"
The woman had already disobeyed when she saw Gen 3:6 And when
the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise...
Also the way it reads the woman never received the order, so if that is true she had no reason to ask.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 05, 2011, 08:31:24 AM
lol, and I've yet to call anyone, bitter!
That's because we are all joyous here :bigGrin:
What Jesus did for us is all about LIFE, not death.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
--Rom 5
"atonement"
G2643
καταλλαγή
katallagē
kat-al-lag-ay'
From G2644; exchange (figuratively adjustment), that is, restoration to (the divine) favor: - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 07:09:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2011, 12:30:11 PM
Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"
The woman had already disobeyed when she saw Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise...
Also the way it reads the woman never received the order, so if that is true she had no reason to ask.
Sounds she was very aware of the order...
ACVGenesis 32 And the woman said to the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat,
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Quote from: thinktank on August 05, 2011, 07:16:08 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 05, 2011, 08:31:24 AM
lol, and I've yet to call anyone, bitter!
That's because we are all joyous here :bigGrin:
lol, but the bitter was in
— your mouth.
I have been thinking more about what ww said about stauros being any upright piece of wood, maybe even a staff.
I thought first about the staff of Moses, which when laid down became a snake but when lifted up was able to part seas.
Then, also, about Aaron's rod that budded, the rod that proved the mantel of high priest was laid on Aaron by God.
Again, I thought about Adam the seed bearer who died and Christ the seed that produces fruit. And, again, the cross which symbolizes the death of Christ and the bringer of life to all humanity, and power to God's nation of priests. This is Aaron's rod that budded,
A dead stick becomes alive and produces fruit. The message of the cross is LIFE, not death.
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
--1 Cor 1:18
http://justifiedbychristalone.com/2010/07/26/alfred-chompff-aarons-rod-that-budded/
It is both.
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(the death) (the Life)
The atheists told me today to stop praying. It is foolishness to those who are perishing.
I need help holding the staff up--some support under my arms.
please. :icon_king:
8 While the people of Israel were still at Rephidim, the warriors of Amalek attacked them. 9 Moses commanded Joshua, "Choose some men to go out and fight the army of Amalek for us. Tomorrow, I will stand at the top of the hill, holding the staff of God in my hand."
10 So Joshua did what Moses had commanded and fought the army of Amalek. Meanwhile, Moses, Aaron, and Hur climbed to the top of a nearby hill. 11 As long as Moses held up the staff in his hand, the Israelites had the advantage. But whenever he dropped his hand, the Amalekites gained the advantage. 12 Moses' arms soon became so tired he could no longer hold them up. So Aaron and Hur found a stone for him to sit on. Then they stood on each side of Moses, holding up his hands. So his hands held steady until sunset. 13 As a result, Joshua overwhelmed the army of Amalek in battle.
--Exodus 17
ARISE LORD,LIFT UP YOUR HAND O'GOD DO NOT FORGET THE HELPLESS[THOSE WITHOUT HELPER SPIRIT/FAITH]
WHY DOES THE WICKED MAN REVILE GOD! WHY DOES HE SAY TO HIMSELF'HE WON'T CALL ME TO ACCOUNT?
BUT YOU,O'GOD DO SEE TROUBLE AND GREIF,YOU CONSIDER IT TO TAKE IT IN HAND
THE VICTIM COMMITS HIMSELF TO YOU,YOU ARE THE HELPER OF THE FATHERLESS[WITHOUT FAITH]
BREAK THE ARM OF THE WICKED AND EVIL MAN
CALL HIM TO ACCOUNT FOR HIS WICKEDNESS...THAT WOULD NOT BE FOUND OUT PSALMS 10
Quote from: Molly on August 05, 2011, 08:42:06 PM
The atheists told me today to stop praying. It is foolishness to those who are perishing.
I need help holding the staff up--some support under my arms.
please. :icon_king:
will pray
Quote from: thinktank on August 05, 2011, 08:43:44 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 05, 2011, 08:05:12 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 05, 2011, 07:16:08 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 05, 2011, 08:31:24 AM
lol, and I've yet to call anyone, bitter!
That's because we are all joyous here :bigGrin:
lol, but the bitter was in — your mouth.
It was your reflection
Ah! Amen!
Not my appearance but:
my reflection of what?
YOU!
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2011, 07:54:45 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 07:09:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2011, 12:30:11 PM
Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"
The woman had already disobeyed when she saw Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise...
Also the way it reads the woman never received the order, so if that is true she had no reason to ask.
Sounds she was very aware of the order...
ACVGenesis 3
2 And the woman said to the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat,
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
You my friend are going into a debatable area, that I will not go into at this time. But your point is one I find very interesting. And for some other time.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 10:19:44 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2011, 07:54:45 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 07:09:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2011, 12:30:11 PM
Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"
The woman had already disobeyed when she saw Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise...
Also the way it reads the woman never received the order, so if that is true she had no reason to ask.
Sounds she was very aware of the order...
ACVGenesis 3
2 And the woman said to the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat,
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
You my friend are going into a debatable area, that I will not go into at this time. But your point is one I find very interesting. And for some other time.
ww, there's a clue in that verse. Adam was told not to eat from the tree, but Eve adds that she cannot touch it either.
That puts Eve on par with the israelites at Sinai who were not allowed to touch the mountain. Adam, himself, is a type of high priest, so he can touch the tree but not eat of it. Interesting.
And still Jesus did not die instead of us. Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Now either the Lord God lied or the serpent lied. Should Jesus have died "instead" of us, then why is it that mankind must still die?
OK, this gets into my suggestion that we clarify terms.
On this count, yes, good point.
Now, what about spiritual death? And is that the same as the consequences of sin, the legal debt Jesus paid by His death, or something different still? :handshake:
I know you think a lot already, but I'm makin' you think, brother. :smile:
I'm not saying I fully understand all the different "types of death", but I don't think they're all the same, and I wonder if we incorrectly use them interchangeably sometimes - such as with the song in question?
Blessings.
Not to be a thorn under the saddle, I know that we, today in our bible discussions speak a lot of "spiritual death," but I can find nowhere in the Bible where any such type of death is discussed or even mentioned. I know that we, today work it into our speech, but that is no matter.
Die H4191 mûth A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.
Die G5053 teleutaō to finish life (by implication of G979), that is, expire (demise): - be dead, decease, die.
Again, should Jesus have died in stead of mankind, why does man still have to die?
That's not being a thorn in the saddle, it's a good clarifying point.
Which brings me to this. You say, "again, why does man have to die"? Well, again, there seems to be more than one kind of death. IMO, these scriptures must be about something besides physical death. I think most do call it spiritual death. Do you know another, better name for it?
But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me; and allow the dead to bury their own dead." (Matthew 8:22) - (How can physically dead people bury anyone?)
"'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (Matthew 22:32)
"But we had to be merry and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found." (Luke 15:32) - (What kind of dead was the prodigal son until he repented? He wasn't literally dead.)
And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10)
And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, (Colossians 2:13)
I protest, brethren, by the boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (1 Corinthians 15:31) Paul wasn't literally dying daily.
I am know way attempting to imply that there is no spiritual death, I know there is, yet it is not a point that is relative in what the Word of God says or Jesus, Matthew,Mark, Luke, Paul and Peter would have made it something for us to speak about.
I know from the Word and the enlightening of the Holy Spirit that there is a spiritual death and that I must die daily to the wiles and wills of the flesh. But in Genesis 2 the Lord God said dying you will die, and Jesus went to the Cross to die the physical death of the flesh, for mankinds sin, as the unblemished Lamb, He did not phyisically die so that we might die a spiritual death.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 06, 2011, 08:22:48 AM
Again, should Jesus have died in stead of mankind, why does man still have to die?
After death man in resurrected. Without Jesus they wouldn't. So eternal death is gone.
2Co 1:9 But we have the rescript of death in ourselves, that we may be having no confidence in ourselves, but in God, Who rouses the dead,
Don't get me wrong Micah, I'm not ignoring that verse.
Basically I'm claiming that without Jesus' sacrifice that verse would not be in the Bible.
Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2011, 04:23:13 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 10:19:44 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2011, 07:54:45 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2011, 07:09:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2011, 12:30:11 PM
Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"
The woman had already disobeyed when she saw Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise...
Also the way it reads the woman never received the order, so if that is true she had no reason to ask.
Sounds she was very aware of the order...
ACVGenesis 3
2 And the woman said to the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat,
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
You my friend are going into a debatable area, that I will not go into at this time. But your point is one I find very interesting. And for some other time.
ww, there's a clue in that verse. Adam was told not to eat from the tree, but Eve adds that she cannot touch it either.
That puts Eve on par with the israelites at Sinai who were not allowed to touch the mountain. Adam, himself, is a type of high priest, so he can touch the tree but not eat of it. Interesting.
Before He ascended Jesus didn't allowed to be touched. (after resurrection)
First of all, out of 13 translations, only one translation says 'dying thou shalt die.' All the rest say, [thou] shall surely [or certainly] die. Using the verb twice there is for emphasis, according to 12 translations. So clearly that is the translation I favor. I do not believe Adam was already dying at the time God told him not to touch the tree. As long as Adam was allowed to stay in the garden he was immortal because he had unimpeded access to the tree of life.
Secondly, first Micah says there is no spiritual death in the Bible, then he says there is a spiritual death but it is not relevant. Which is it Micah? Is there a spiritual death or not?
Third, Adam does die spiritually after he eats from the tree [as does Jesus on the cross], years before he dies physically. The fact that Adam is kicked out of the garden proves he has died spiritually.
Fourth, Jesus says that those who believe in him will never die. Since, in this age we know we are still dying physically, he must have been referring to dying spiritually.
Paul talks about himself as being dead while he is still alive. Therefore, Paul is acknowledging spiritual death, because we know Paul is still walking and talking when he refers to himself as 'dead.'
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
--Rom 7
Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2011, 12:43:10 PMAs long as Adam was allowed to stay in the garden he was immortal because he had unimpeded access to the tree of life.
Mmm, but if for some reason he didn't eat he would have died when still in the garden. Is that real immortality?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 06, 2011, 02:09:54 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2011, 12:43:10 PMAs long as Adam was allowed to stay in the garden he was immortal because he had unimpeded access to the tree of life.
Mmm, but if for some reason he didn't eat he would have died when still in the garden. Is that real immortality?
No. It's only potential immortality. As we see, he could get kicked out of the garden for disobedience. But, Christ gives us real immortality because he gives us his righteousness.
Do you think the tree in Eden is this tree:
ACVRevelation 22
2 in the middle of its thoroughfare. And on this side of the river and on that was a tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit according to each month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 06, 2011, 02:54:30 PM
Do you think the tree in Eden is this tree:
ACVRevelation 22
2 in the middle of its thoroughfare. And on this side of the river and on that was a tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit according to each month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Yes. But aren't there two trees of life in this verse and no tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Death has been swallowed up by life?
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
--Rom 4:25
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 06, 2011, 10:21:36 AM
Don't get me wrong Micah, I'm not ignoring that verse.
Basically I'm claiming that without Jesus' sacrifice that verse would not be in the Bible.
Gotcha! Amen
Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2011, 12:43:10 PM
First of all, out of 13 translations, only one translation says 'dying thou shalt die.' All the rest say, [thou] shall surely [or certainly] die. Using the verb twice there is for emphasis, according to 12 translations. So clearly that is the translation I favor. I do not believe Adam was already dying at the time God told him not to touch the tree. As long as Adam was allowed to stay in the garden he was immortal because he had unimpeded access to the tree of life.
Secondly, first Micah says there is no spiritual death in the Bible, then he says there is a spiritual death but it is not relevant. Which is it Micah? Is there a spiritual death or not?
Third, Adam does die spiritually after he eats from the tree [as does Jesus on the cross], years before he dies physically. The fact that Adam is kicked out of the garden proves he has died spiritually.
Fourth, Jesus says that those who believe in him will never die. Since, in this age we know we are still dying physically, he must have been referring to dying spiritually.
Paul talks about himself as being dead while he is still alive. Therefore, Paul is acknowledging spiritual death, because we know Paul is still walking and talking when he refers to himself as 'dead.'
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
--Rom 7
"Secondly, first Micah says there is no spiritual death in the Bible, then he says there is a spiritual death but it is not relevant. Which is it Micah? Is there a spiritual death or not?"
I never said or implied that spiritual death is not relevent, I said no body talked about it back then as we do today. But while we are here,
what spirit is recorded as dying?"Third, Adam does die spiritually after he eats from the tree [as does Jesus on the cross], years before he dies physically. The fact that Adam is kicked out of the garden proves he has died spiritually."
" Adam does die spiritually after he eats from the tree [as does Jesus on the cross],
are you saying Jesus only died spiritually on the cross?
If Jesus did not die the death dying thou dust die, then take this verse out of the book 1Co 15:13 If there is no such thing as a resurrection of the dead, then Christ Himself has not risen to life.
As for the 4th I refer to the answer on the Secondly.
Molly from which book of the Bible did you read of "spiritual death?" I am not talking about how you understand it, Im talking about reading about it so I can show some one chapter and verse. Thank you.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2011, 09:17:41 AM
Stauros is a "general word"
Means something like stake, stick, staff.
A bit of common sense (no pun intended!) goes a long way too.
Today take up your cross has a powerful (symbolic) meaning. A cross is a sign of Christianity. etc etc
But when Jesus spoke those words He wasn't crucified yet. Only He knew the was gonna happen.
His followers were Jews would believed He was promised Messiah that was gonna wipe out all their enemies. Not die on the cross like a criminal...
Besides of that a cross was to heavy to carry. I was a Roman thing, not Jewish. And if it had a religious meaning it was pagan.
It signifies the rebirth of the sun.
To recap:
- The symbolic meaning of the cross wasn't established yet.
- The real cross was way to heavy to carry. John was a real follower of Jesus. Do you think he took a 300 pound cross and walked to Patmos? :winkgrin:
WW, I was thinking of your "staff" again, wondering where it might fit in with following Jesus. I did some looking.
Agree, disagree, "like" it or not, I thought the following might evoke some further thought and discussion.
http://shortdailydevotions.com/devotions/luke-923-25-radical-jesus-take-up-your-cross
And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself?
(Luke 9:23-25 ESV)
It's difficult from our modern perspective to completely understand the discomfort and even offense that the crowds would have felt from Jesus' words. In our culture the cross is often relegated to being a good luck charm, a stylish piece of jewelry, a cool tattoo, and at best a symbolic piece of art. Even in Christian circles we've sanitized our perspective of the cross with pictures of a smooth skinned Jesus with a small trickle of blood.
People from 2000 years ago would be shocked at how we utilize the cross. It was considered the most painful, gruesome, and shameful way to die. Good Roman citizens were not supposed to talk about it, and the ancient Jewish historian Josephus called it "the most wretched of deaths." Jewish people had witnessed literally thousands of their countrymen crucified on hillsides, so their picture of the cross was radically different than ours.
The Romans purpose behind crucifixion was simple: to provide the most painful, gruesome, and publicly shameful death imaginable. The condemned person would be forced to carry the horizontal portion of the cross, weighing about 110 pounds, through the streets in a procession to the place of execution. A small sign, stating the victim's crime, was usually placed on a staff and carried at the front of the procession from the prison. It was later nailed to the cross so that it extended above the head. As the condemned would walk the streets people would scream insults and spit as he walked.
When the condemned arrived at the place of crucifixion, the vertical portion of the cross was planted in the ground. He was then nailed to the cross-beam. Historical Roman accounts have established that rough seven to eight inch nails were driven between the small bones of the wrists, rather than the palms. The soldier would then take the left foot and press it backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, one nail is driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees moderately flexed. The condemned is now crucified.
As he would sag down with more weight on the nails in the wrists, excruciating pain would shoot along the fingers through the median nerve, up the arms, and all the way into the brain. As he pushed himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, his full weight would shift to the nail through the feet. Eventually his arms would become exhausted with fatigue, and his muscles so cramped that he could no longer push himself upward. As he hung in this excruciatingly cramped and painful position air could be drawn into the lungs, but not exhaled. The victim would fight with all of his remaining strength to lift himself, gasping for one more breath of oxygen. Eventually, carbon dioxide would build up in the lungs and in the blood stream, and the victim would die from asphyxiation—the condemned man literally suffocates on the cross.
This is the picture they saw as Jesus spoke these words.
What would we think if someone today wore a golden electric chair around their neck? Or what if they had nuclear mushroom cloud ear rings? We would probably be a little appalled.
Imagine Jesus speaking to you today and saying,
"If you want to follow me, you must deny yourself and sit in your electric chair each day, you must sit in the gas chamber, you must die by lethal injection."
How does this change the way you approach following Jesus? - end quote
Quote from: jabcat on August 09, 2011, 05:40:35 AM
Imagine Jesus speaking to you today and saying,
"If you want to follow me, you must deny yourself and sit in your electric chair each day, you must sit in the gas chamber, you must die by lethal injection."
We really don't have to imagine anything for the Lord has spoke concerning the matter:
Luke 9:23; Then he said to the crowd, "If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross daily, and follow me.
Jab, I think they would have understood it metaphorically. Plus, he didn't say hang on the cross, he said pick up your cross. To understand the meaning of that, we would have to look at the passages where Jesus was carrying the cross.
I understand it as doing something very difficult, a thankless job or duty that calls for character and resolve, but I also understand that HE did all the hard work of the cross so I wouldn't have to. Some of the gospels say that Simon of Cyrene was forced by the soldiers to carry the cross for him, which was bad enough for Simon, but in no way resembles what our Lord had to suffer. Could it be he is calling us to be Simon?
Mark 15:19 Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.
20When they were finally tired of mocking him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him again. Then they led him away to be crucified.
21A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross.
James,
The Romans had several crucifixion methods.
A stake.
A T shaped cross.
A X shaped cross.
A cross like seen in church.
Upside down like Peter.
The vertical part could be a beam like you see in most pictures. But it just as well could be a tree.
Romans had several rules for crucifixion.
Crucifixion must be near the scene of the crime. It must be a public place because crucifixion wasn't only to punish the criminal but also a warning what happens to those not obeying Roman laws.
It's hard to say were Jesu commited His crime because according to the priests every place He walked He commited blasphemy. According to Pilate there wasn't much wrong with Jesus. But Jesus was caught in the garden.
There are reference to Jesus hung on a green tree. The Roman soldier saw the temple curtain being torn. The Temple curtain could only be ssen from the east. (God only looks east ward)
The Temple was fortress like on hill (nicknamed the tower). Crucifixtion was outside the Temple complex. Outside the camp. (3000 cubits/2000 ft) Obviously from a valley the curtain couldn't be seen. Jesus was crucified on a elevated spot. That's the only spot teh Temple curtain could be seen.
That the place were He was arrested. On the mount of Olives. A garden full of olive trees. He was nailed to a green olive tree. A very public place because the it was also very near the altar of the read heifer/altar of ashes (?)
The Romans purpose behind crucifixion was simple: to provide the most painful, gruesome, and publicly shameful death imaginable. The condemned person would be forced to carry the horizontal portion of the cross, weighing about 110 pounds, through the streets in a procession to the place of execution. A small sign, stating the victim's crime, was usually placed on a staff and carried at the front of the procession from the prison. It was later nailed to the cross so that it extended above the head.
????
A thing I recently found but can't verify:
I would like to make a very important point here:The bible teaches that Jesus had to carry the stake or as some believe cross, outside of the city. A very important point is that we can go back in history and find that there was a wall around the city, and many gates on each wall to exit the city. These gates were designed to prevent a man on horse back or camel from entering while riding. The design only allowed a man to enter by walking, and his mount had to squat. The reason for this was to not allow their enemies to ride into the city with the advantage of being on a mount while attacking. Giving this understanding I would like to present a point which shows why Jesus could not have carried a Cross outside the city. As you will see by the minimum dimensions necessary to place the cross at least four feet into the ground so it would not topple over, and still having adequate room to stretch a man at least six foot tall on the cross with at least two feet left from the ground, and adequate room for the sign that was hung above Jesus' head would make it at least thirteen feet tall. A man's arms stretched out is as long as the man is tall, so the side arms had to be at least five foot 10 inches in order to stretch his arms out the way they had to be stretched. I would like to ask how Jesus, or anyone could have gotten this thing through the small gates of the city that a horse had to squat in order to enter? Plus, the cross would have to be at least eight inches square, so if you think about the weight of this cross you will see it would take two men to carry it. I submit that a man that had been beaten all night long would not be able to pick it up.
(http://www.masters-table.org/pagan/x_size.png)
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/roman-crucifixion-methods-reveal-the-history-of-crucifixion/ (http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/roman-crucifixion-methods-reveal-the-history-of-crucifixion/)
"I submit that a man that had been beaten all night long would not be able to pick it up."
Enter Simon of Cyrene.
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2011, 09:18:33 AM
"I submit that a man that had been beaten all night long would not be able to pick it up."
Not all (scholars) agree with that. Pilate didn't have a real problem with Jesus so the beating possibly wasn't that extreme.
Besides of that... many healty people can't lift/drag a 300 pound cross (uphill)
Do you believe it was only part of the cross He was carrying, like the cross-bar? I think I've seen you say that before.
Also, since He was carrying something [and then Simon of Cyrene] how is it that He was crucified on an olive tree [that was already there?]?
KJVJoh 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden;
Garden is orchard/plantation.
That's where Jesus was crucified.
Jesus didn't carry a cross. He only carried the upper cross piece. A board plank. A patibulum
Then Jesus was nailed with his arms to that plank. Then got lifted up and the plank got nailed to the vertical part of the cross.
The vertical part was simply a living tree in the garden. That was common in those days if the crucifixion had to be carried out quickly.
KJVLuk 23:31 For if they do these things in a
green tree, what shall be done in the dry? => Green is a living tree.
KJVAct 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
KJVAct 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
KJV1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Ignatius called it a tree with branches and had fruit on it. Early Christians saw it as
the Tree of Life. (artwork in the catacombs)
Jesus and the 2 thiefs where nailed to the
same (olive) tree.
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:YgKx-yzdk5RtsM:http://www.runic.com/print/olive-tree-logo.jpg)
http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2008/08/was-jesus-executed-on-cross-or-stake-3c.html
Quote from: jabcat on August 09, 2011, 09:43:27 AM
Do you believe it was only part of the cross He was carrying, like the cross-bar? I think I've seen you say that before.
Also, since He was carrying something [and then Simon of Cyrene] how is it that He was crucified on an olive tree [that was already there?]?
Interesting.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a TREE (Galatians 3:13, KJV).
http://hope-of-israel.org.nz/cructree.html
I think we have to take in mind the symbology of things.
Jesus was the goat sacrifice. He was the sheep sacrifice.
Wouldn't it be logical Jesus was crucified in place where God could see Him when looking from the Temple?
It was also the place where David counted head of his army. Golgotha means cranium, skull.
Also the place where Abraham intended to sacrifice his son.
Olive oil is what's used to burn the menorah.
Dunno it's al relevant but I do think so.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2011, 10:05:55 AM
I think we have to take in mind the symbology of things.
Jesus was the goat sacrifice. He was the sheep sacrifice.
Wouldn't it be logical Jesus was crucified in place where God could see Him when looking from the Temple?
It was also the place where David counted head of his army. Golgotha means cranium, skull.
Also the place where Abraham intended to sacrifice his son.
Olive oil is what's used to burn the menorah.
Dunno it's al relevant but I do think so.
Yep.
Olive tree is the symbol of Israel.
Two trees in the garden.
Tree of the knowledge of good and evil=the Law=covenant with death.
Good stuff, Molly and Wings.
From article above: (Why would he be nailed to the tree of life instead of to the tree of tkge?)
The fact that the evidence in support of the TREE -- rather than the Roman cross -- for the crucifixion of the Messiah is overwhelming opens the door to making a profound connection between the crucifixion TREE and the Tree of Life. As we have already seen, the Greek word xulou (or xulon) was used to refer to the crucifixion tree. In contrast, the Greek word dendron -- which refers to a living tree primarily known for its fruit -- was NEVER used in this way. Significantly, the same Greek word (xulou/xulon) that refers to the crucifixion tree is also used to refer to the Tree of Life in the Book of Revelation! Notice!
He who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree[XULON] of life, which is in the Paradise of God (Revelation 2:7).
...And on either side of the river was the tree of life....yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations (Revelation 22:2).
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city (Revelation 22:14).
...And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book (Revelation 22:19).
The use of the same Greek word confirms a DIRECT LINK between the Tree of Life and the crucifixion tree. That link, both LITERAL and SYMBOLIC, has been traced from the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden to the crucifixion tree on the Mount of Olives.
The menorah is mainly an almond tree. The "ends"(dunno the proper name) in wich the actual flame is are olive. --> Or some similar design.
IIRC the oil represents the HS.
This kind of "symbolic matches" makes me refuse to accept the cross was just some dead wood. But there is other evidence too.
On of it being that the thieves (possibly wrongly translated from holy/saints) were on the same cross/tree.
Not 3 seperate crosses....
Adam dies as a result of eating the tree of kge, Christ dies on the tree of life.
Help me out with this.
Old covenant is tree of kge, New covenant is tree of life?
Imo nailed to a tree could be seen as grafted in?
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/revelation_221819_taken_out_book_life_8986.msg116954.html#msg116954
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2011, 10:26:27 AM
Adam dies as a result of eating the tree of kge, Christ dies on the tree of life.
Help me out with this.
Old covenant is tree of kge, New covenant is tree of life?
I have an idea but.....
Eve stole from the tree. First fruit Jesus was nailed back to the 'same tree'.
That may sound good at first but it would rather picture Jesus on the Tree of life instead the other tree basicly being the tree of death.
Plus I have reasons to believe the tree of life was an almond tree and the other tree was a fig tree.
Although I admit I see problems in my thoughts I still believe it's about the fruit being put back on the tree. Damage undone. :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2011, 10:28:49 AM
Imo nailed to a tree could be seen as grafted in?
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/revelation_221819_taken_out_book_life_8986.msg116954.html#msg116954
OMG that's beautiful!
He's grafting everyone into the tree of life!
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
--2 Cor 5
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2011, 10:33:05 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2011, 10:26:27 AM
Adam dies as a result of eating the tree of kge, Christ dies on the tree of life.
Help me out with this.
Old covenant is tree of kge, New covenant is tree of life?
I have an idea but.....
Eve stole from the tree. First fruit Jesus was nailed back to the 'same tree'.
That may sound good at first but it would rather picture Jesus on the Tree of life instead the other tree basicly being the tree of death.
Plus I have reasons to believe the tree of life was an almond tree and the other tree was a fig tree.
Although I admit I see problems in my thoughts I still believe it's about the fruit being put back on the tree. Damage undone. :dontknow:
The budding staff of Aaron was an almond branch.
When he went into the Tabernacle of the Covenant the next day, he found that Aaron's staff, representing the tribe of Levi, had sprouted, budded, blossomed, and produced ripe almonds!--Num 17:8
"Jeremiah's vision of the rod of an almond tree -- found in Jeremiah 1:11-12 -- and YEHOVAH God's promise to watch over His Word (to perform the act of redemption) was fulfilled at the crucifixion. In this way, the Tree of Life, the source of the almond rod, is both literally and symbolically represented in the redemption of all humankind. Through it, YEHOVAH God brought redemption first to the Israelites and then, ultimately, to all humankind through the Messiah -- the Fruit of the Tree of Life who gives eternal life to all who trust in him and YEHOVAH God the Father!"
So that means we move from fig tree=tkge=Israel=the Law=covenant with death
to the almond tree=tree of life=Aaron's budding rod=the Levites=the Priesthood=new covenant.
19And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
--Mat 21
You guys are over my head, but carry on! It's good!
In some ways, I really am a simple man.
And that's all I've got to say about thayat.
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2011, 11:16:30 AM
So that means we move from fig tree=tkge=Israel=the Law=covenant with death
to the almond tree=tree of life=Aaron's budding rod=the Levites=the Priesthood=new covenant.
Not sure I agree....
Fig = law (BTW the priest quarter were outside the temple in the "house of unripe figs)
Almond = Priest.
Olive = Jesus. (yeah I know He was also a priest...)
Mount of olives likely only had olive trees. No guarantee there wasn't an almond tree... But I think Jesus was nailed to an olive tree (are the big enough?)
Symbolicly the crucifixion scene formed a menorah.
3 people nailed to the same tree makes 6 arms just like the Menorah. In teh center the 7th arm being the tree itself :dontknow:
The Almond Tree, in Hebrew "Light"
The almond tree is the first tree to sprout and the last one to lose its leaves. Its flowers symbolize the cups that crown the seven branches of the Jewish candelabra (Ex. 25:33-36; 37:19-20). In the biblical books, the almond tree is mentioned several times (e.g., Gen. 30:37-39; 43:11; Qo.12.1-5). The prophet, Jeremiah, mentions it in a vision: The word of Yahweh was addressed to me asking, "Jeremiah, what to you see?" "I see a branch of the watchful tree," I answered. Then Yahweh said, "Well seen! I too watch over My Word to see it fulfilled" (Jer. 1:11-12). In this text there is a word game between the Hebrew words shaqed, almond tree, and shoqed, I watch. Also, the image of the almond tree, the first tree to bloom, reminds us of the watchful eye of God, that watches over His word to set it to practice. God is the almond tree of Israel.
http://198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/mag/HolyLnA2.html
QuoteNot sure I agree....
well you get the idea, though. All of these things stand for something else. We just have to figure out what. lol
QuoteFig = law (BTW the priest quarter were outside the temple in the "house of unripe figs)
The withered fig tree=he's doing away with the Levite priesthood. It will never produce fruit again. From now on, the saints pray directly to God, through Jesus.
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2011, 11:32:10 AM
God is the almond tree of Israel.
I'm not saying the article is wrong but the Menorah seems to be more about the Messiah.
Besides that Jesus is the Light He's the centre light of the Menorah. The branch of Jesse.
Quote
The middle bowl (lamp) is called: Ner Elohim - The Lamp of God
as well as Shamash - The Servant Lamp
The middle bowl or lamp is thus a symbol of the Messiah.
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2011, 11:36:24 AMThe withered fig tree=he's doing away with the Levite priesthood.
I think it has another meaning. The tree of knowledge was likely a fig tree. So He in a way killed the fruits of death.
QuoteIt will never produce fruit again. From now on, the saints pray directly to God, through Jesus.
I think that's true. See my Family of Jesus'posts...
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2011, 11:46:20 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2011, 11:32:10 AM
The Almond Tree, in Hebrew "Light"
The Menorah is light too.
QuoteGod is the almond tree of Israel.
I'm not saying the article is wrong but the Menorah seems to be more about the Messiah.
Besides that Jesus is the Light He's the centre light of the Menorah. The branch of Jesse.
Seems we getting off-topic again.
Jesus is God. The LORD is my shepherd...
I am the good shepherd...
The Jews know everything about Jesus. If only they knew they know...
Hummm.... no comment :Whistle:
19And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
21Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
22Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
--John 19
The hidden meaning in Pilate's inscription. I've got to give you a little bit of background here. We usually think that there's only one inscription over Christ at the Crucifixion. But actually, he showed us that there are two. The first three Gospels talk about a superscription, and it's translated "inscription," and the word "charge" is used. So that's a very reasonable thing. They said, "This guy's a murderer," and they tack it up over his head, to tell everybody why he's in trouble. And that's what it says in the first three Gospels. But in John, it changes. It's not that. And the one that's listed in John is written by Pilate. It doesn't say in any of the other ones that they were written by Pilate, but this one was written by Pilate, and it caused a very great stir among the Jewish leaders. They went to Pilate to demand that he take it down; change it! And he said, "Hey, buzz off. I wrote what I wrote. Get out of here."
John 19:20 states that Pilate's inscription was written in three languages, Hebrew, Latin and Greek. Because a great majority of the Jewish people were in Jerusalem for the Passover, and Yeshua was crucified in a public place, thousands must have read this inscription. The original Greek of Pilate's inscription, as recorded in John 19:19, is Iesous O Nazaraios O Basileus Ton Ioudaion. Because the Greek language is the language in which the New Testament was preserved, we have to construct the Hebrew and Latin from the Greek. And we can do that pretty easily. We must also arrive at an accurate English translation from the Greek. Now, ultimately, understanding the Hebrew is going to be the key to unlocking the hidden meaning in the inscription. This is really neat stuff, this codifying that we're going to talk about.
So he takes the five Greek words in the inscription and details them out here. The name Jesus, Iesous, is the English transliteration of the Greek. The English transliteration of the Hebrew name is Yeshua. (And that means "salvation," by the way.) The second word in Greek, Nazaraios – and that's another thing about these inscriptions – the first three inscriptions say nothing about Nazareth. They all talk about the King of the Jews. Jesus, the King of the Jews. This is Jesus, the King of the Jews. They don't ever say anything about Nazareth. And that's another detail that says that there were two, because John says Nazarene. Now, at least one other Gospel would say Nazarene. Sometimes things get left out in the repeated stories.
So let's get on with Nazarene. Nazarene, in some English translations, instead of Nazareth, they say Nazarene. But the Greek word is Nazarene. The actual Hebrew word transliterated into English is Hanazri. Did you notice the "Nazri," Nazri, that's the Nazarene. And the "Ha" is a prefix in Hebrew that says "the." So Hanazri isn't Hanazri, it's "the Nazarene." The third original Hebrew word translated "king" seems to be the source of the great upset among the Jewish leaders. The current Hebrew text translates the Greek word as "Melech." However, it seems unlikely that this form of the Hebrew word created a problem, since the religious leaders themselves used it to mock Yeshua. They said, "He said He was the King of the Jews," and they used "Melech" for the word "king." So that wasn't what they had a problem with. And they didn't have any problem with Yeshua, that was His name, and where He came from, Nazareth, or that he was a Nazarene, dedicated to God; they didn't argue with that. And they called Him themselves, the King of the Jews, right?
So the key is what form of the Hebrew word "Melech" is used for king. The correct usage of the Greek letter omicron – remember, there are two of those – provides the clue. Generally, the omicron translates as "the." However, there are other possible translations, depending on the context. The omicron appears twice in the Greek inscription. Between "Yeshua" and "Nazarene" – it says "Yeshua O Nazarene," or "the Nazarene," or maybe something different, and then between "Nazarene" and "king." "Nazarene, the King of the Jews." Note the differences in how the omicron is translated into the English translations above in the King James and the NIV. The first omicron is translated "of," as in "Jesus of Nazareth." The second omicron is translated "the." "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews." Judging by the reaction of the Jewish leaders, the religious leaders, it seems that the translation of the second omicron is "and," resulting in the following English translation of the inscription. "Jesus the Nazarene and King of the Jews." See, this was His title; that wasn't the charge against Him; that was the title. And we'll see that in just a minute.
Given that the correct translation of the omicron before the word "king" is "and," the correct form of the Hebrew word for "king," "Melech," is "Vemelech." See, there's another prefix going on there. The "v-e" says "and." "H-a" says "the," "v-e" means "and," so they say "Vemelech," meaning "and king." Well, what's the big deal? Jesus the Nazarene and King of the Jews, okay. Yeshua, Hanazri Vemelech HaYehudim. Well, it is a big difference! This is the detail we're getting to here. This apparently minor change in both the English and the Hebrew will in fact have profound implications in the meaning of the inscription. The last two Greek words in the inscription are translated into English as "of the Jews," "ton Ioudaion." In Hebrew, it's only one word. See, this inscription in Hebrew only has four words in it, because you don't have to put "of the" and everything and add words to it; you just put "ve" on there, or "and" or whatever. In the Hebrew, the one word which transliterates into English as HaYehudim. See, Yehudim is pretty obviously Jewish, the Jews, Yehudim, Yehuda and all that, from the tribe of Judah, and we put the "ha" in front of it, it says "the" Yehudim, the Jews. The "im" is plural. So, big deal, huh? Yeah, it is.
In order to ascertain the hidden meaning of the inscription, it's essential to comprehend certain unique aspects of Hebrew writing. In Hebrew studies, speaking or writing the first and last words of some written text implies the entire text. A good example of this is Yeshua's words on the tree. He spoke the first and last words of Psalm 22, which referred to the entire text of Psalm 22. And, in so doing, He indicated that He was the fulfillment of its prophetic picture.
Now in the same manner, the Jewish scribes of that day used a method of interpretation whereby the first letters of a sequence of words were combined in order to discern further meanings. This is just working with an acronym, okay? Straight Talk About God is STAG. That's easy. And if you want to emphasize that, you make the letters big, or in bold type. This was particularly true if the first letters of the words were enlarged for emphasis. The Roman Catholic church borrowed this idea when they placed the four letters, INRI, on the crucifix. These are the first letters of the four words that make up the inscription in Latin. These four words were in Latin also. There's six or seven in English, but there's only four in Latin. And the four in Latin are Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum. INRI. Iesus – that's the "I," Nazarenus, "N," Rex, "R," Iudaeorum starts with an "I," so you've got those four letters. Now try to get that image in your mind. There's four words there, and the first letter of each word is twice the size and in bold type, so it really stands out, and they tend to meld right together that way.
But the hidden meaning in Greek or Latin is entirely lost unless we go back to the original Hebrew. The religious leaders of the day would certainly have related to their own God-given language. And herein lies the cause of their alarm. Again, there's four words in Hebrew, and they say, as we said before, Yeshua Hanazri Vemelech HaYehudim. But before this mystery can be revealed, we must remember that Hebrew is read from right to left. So when we see it on the page, it's backwards. So we get the wrong first letter for the word if we don't understand that. So, as I said, the transliteration into English is Yeshua -- that means salvation -- and Hanazri, as a matter of fact, means to guard, keep, protect. And king is next, Vemelech, and Jews. Yeshua Hanazri Vemelech HaYehudim. The first four letters are yod, hay, vav, hay, YHVH. Were you ahead of me on that one? YHVH? That's the Tetragrammaton. That's none other than the ineffable name of God. And it was considered too awesome back in those times and too sacred to even speak it. They just took the vowel points and put them in different places so it came out and sounded like a different word. But they wouldn't even say the word, which is their problem.
http://asis.com/users/stag/starchiv/transcriptions/AlmondRod3.html
What upset the Jews was that Jesus has YHVH written over his head on the cross, written by Pilate so they cannot remove it.
The Rod of an Almond Tree in God's Master Plan by Peter Michas
From Amazon.com:
Scripture records the existence of a miraculous rod that budded, producing blossoms and ripe almonds (Numbers 17:8). This same rod was used by Moses to part the Red Sea and by David in battle against Goliath. Hebraic sources link this miraculous rod to the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden! From the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden to the Crucifixion Tree on the Mount of Olives, the remarkable history of this miraculous almond rod is traced. Restoring Scripture to its Hebraic roots is the key to unlocking a deeper dimension and reveals ...
Jerusalem site of the original Garden of Eden Aaron's Rod a branch from Tree of Life The Biblical Holy Days God's prophetic timetable The Ineffable Name of God encoded in Pilates inscription The true timetable and location of the crucifixion and resurrection
A powerful masterpiece of revelation for the truth seeker believer or skeptic. Separates Biblical Truth from Religious Tradition.
Ok, so what is the name of god?
I dont know it sounds to me like this person is saying there was some kind of conspiracy going on with Pilate and the Jews in the writing of the paper[message],
"In order to ascertain the hidden meaning of the inscription,...."
The principal point is that Jesus(Savior) was crucified and it was implicated that He was the king of the Jews, which made the Jews really upset and as far as I know it didnt bother the Romans one bit.
I am not making light of what you posted but of what significance is it? Are we to see some hidden mystery to Jesus's crucifiction, other than how He died or the purpose of His sacrifice? Im only asking. Paul said the simplicity.
2Co 11:3 and I fear, lest, as the serpent did beguile Eve in his subtilty, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in the Christ;
I must ask as I read your post as I was making mine, "The Ineffable Name of God encoded in Pilates inscription..." Do they know the " Ineffable Name of God?" Peace and Love Through Jesus the Savior of the world
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 10:25:01 AM
Ok, so what is the name of god?
I dont know it sounds to me like this person is saying there was some kind of conspiracy going on with Pilate and the Jews in the writing of the paper[message],
"In order to ascertain the hidden meaning of the inscription,...."
No conspiracy. Romans did put the reason for crucifixion on a sign that all could read. Pilate convicted Jesus because according to the scribes He claimed to be king of the Jews. And in the Roman mind that was treason because the Roma emperor was king of the Jews.
INRI = YHVHWhen Jesus was crucified, Pilate wrote the sign that was nailed to the cross. The particular wording he chose displeased the Jewish leadership and they asked him to change it. He refused. There are some interesting aspects to this incident that are not apparent in our English translations.
(John 19:19-22)
But why?
Latin: Iesus Nazareus Rex Iudaiorum ==> Jesus King of the Jews
Hebrew:
(http://xwalk.ca/yhwh.gif)
H W H Y
Reading from right to left YHWH
Okay. but what has this to do with the post Died in my stead? And does anyone know the name of God? Even with the letters? If so please inform me.
I know there are many mysterys within the Word of God, but it seems people are always, probably a bad word to use, creating them, like Lincoln, and Kennedy's assasinations. I dont know. i aint tryin to cause no trouble, just saying.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 10:47:10 AM
Okay. but what has this to do with the post Died in my stead? And does anyone know the name of God? Even with the letters? If so please inform me.
I know there are many mysterys within the Word of God, but it seems people are always, probably a bad word to use, creating them, like Lincoln, and Kennedy's assasinations. I dont know. i aint tryin to cause no trouble, just saying.
YHVH was the name given by God to Moses to use as a memorial. I AM THAT I AM.
If that name ended up over the head of Jesus on the cross, I find that interesting. The cross is where he died in our stead which is what gives the whole thing relevance to this thread.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of
God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
ww, I've been thinking more about this almond tree. I've read that the olive and almond trees were often planted in the same place, so it could be on the mount of olives. It's interesting that both the olive and almond trees are also represented together in the menorah [candlestick]. The almond flower is the shape used for the cup that holds the oil. We know that the olive tree represents Israel. But, the almond tree is clearly Aaron's rod that budded, representing the [Melchizedek] priesthood and the tree of life--the Christians.
Now what has come to mind, is that the almond tree represents the Christians, the new covenant, and the cross. It is present within the ark of the covenant [Aaron's rod], along with the manna fed to the Israelites in the desert and the stone tablets [representing the law].
So with the almond and olive trees, we see Jew and Gentile [Christian] brought together--two sticks held in one hand.
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
--Eze 37:19
Quote from: Molly on August 10, 2011, 11:25:52 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 10:47:10 AM
Okay. but what has this to do with the post Died in my stead? And does anyone know the name of God? Even with the letters? If so please inform me.
I know there are many mysterys within the Word of God, but it seems people are always, probably a bad word to use, creating them, like Lincoln, and Kennedy's assasinations. I dont know. i aint tryin to cause no trouble, just saying.
YHVH was the name given by God to Moses to use as a memorial. I AM THAT I AM.
If that name ended up over the head of Jesus on the cross, I find that interesting. The cross is where he died in our stead which is what gives the whole thing relevance to this thread.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Where does one find that Jesus died in our stead? Also should He have died in our stead and He was a subsitute, why is not that word found[even its meaning] in the writing of the Gospels and Paul. Or for that matter why is it not made clear that Jesus died "instead" of us?
YHVH are letters, I know they are of great importance, but we have not even scraped the surface of what has been revealed to us as individuals and yet we have some who will go off a wondering about somethings that,well right now have small importance. There are many minds out there before us and now who reason and think with the natural mind, and find things that feed the natural mind of men and we, as human beings, just follow along and we lose track of studying and seeking the truth out of what has been given us. You all say we are a body of many members and that we all have a part, well I suggest we stay on that ONE thing the Lord has given us, and seek its true understanding and meaning so that we can be used to proclaim it. :2c:
Quote from: Molly on August 10, 2011, 11:47:09 AM
ww, I've been thinking more about this almond tree. I've read that the olive and almond trees were often planted in the same place, so it could be on the mount of olives.
Could be true. I really don't know. Maybe the name mount of olives is just a bit misleading? Maybe the whole mountain was covered with olive trees and the top with almond trees?
An almond tree seems to be more right because it's the Menorah and according to the Jews the tree of life. You almond staff reference hint in that way too.
OTOH olive oil is the representation of the (outpouring of the) HS.
An almond tree
Jesus was crucified on a green tree. That certainly means a living tree. But perhaps also a tree that already had leaves on it?
Almond a olive both flower during passover.
ACVIsa 111 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse. And a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.
When olive trees a are cut down very often a new tree grows from the old roots. Not really prrof of anything ofcourse.
(http://www.cyprusvillagelink.com/photos/Almond%20Tree%20Limnati.JPG)
Almond tree
(http://www.inkart.com/images/lineart/Olive_Tree.jpg)
Olive tree
QuoteIt's interesting that both the olive and almond trees are also represented together in the menorah [candlestick].
It seems that nobody really know what the Menorah exactly looked like.
I think the menorah was only almond. The oil was from the olive.
QuoteThe almond flower is the shape used for the cup that holds the oil. We know that the olive tree represents Israel. But, the almond tree is clearly Aaron's rod that budded, representing the [Melchizedek] priesthood and the tree of life--the Christians.
I'm thinking again about "take up your cross". If that means staff I wonder if Jesus also had an almond staff....
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 12:35:53 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 10, 2011, 11:25:52 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 10:47:10 AM
Okay. but what has this to do with the post Died in my stead? And does anyone know the name of God? Even with the letters? If so please inform me.
I know there are many mysterys within the Word of God, but it seems people are always, probably a bad word to use, creating them, like Lincoln, and Kennedy's assasinations. I dont know. i aint tryin to cause no trouble, just saying.
YHVH was the name given by God to Moses to use as a memorial. I AM THAT I AM.
If that name ended up over the head of Jesus on the cross, I find that interesting. The cross is where he died in our stead which is what gives the whole thing relevance to this thread.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Where does one find that Jesus died in our stead? Also should He have died in our stead and He was a subsitute, why is not that word found[even its meaning] in the writing of the Gospels and Paul. Or for that matter why is it not made clear that Jesus died "instead" of us?
Because the wages of sin is death and Jesus payed teh wages to the last cent....?
QuoteYHVH are letters, I know they are of great importance, but we have not even scraped the surface of what has been revealed to us as individuals and yet we have some who will go off a wondering about somethings that,well right now have small importance.
Micah when someone is on a journey it's not bad to enjoy the scenery.
QuoteThere are many minds out there before us and now who reason and think with the natural mind, and find things that feed the natural mind of men and we, as human beings, just follow along and we lose track of studying and seeking the truth out of what has been given us.
How can that natural mind find truth? Every pastor seem to have his own truth. So....? I think the only way to prove the truth that is found really is the truth is by verifying it against all those seemingly useless facts.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2011, 12:50:39 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 12:35:53 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 10, 2011, 11:25:52 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 10:47:10 AM
Okay. but what has this to do with the post Died in my stead? And does anyone know the name of God? Even with the letters? If so please inform me.
I know there are many mysterys within the Word of God, but it seems people are always, probably a bad word to use, creating them, like Lincoln, and Kennedy's assasinations. I dont know. i aint tryin to cause no trouble, just saying.
YHVH was the name given by God to Moses to use as a memorial. I AM THAT I AM.
If that name ended up over the head of Jesus on the cross, I find that interesting. The cross is where he died in our stead which is what gives the whole thing relevance to this thread.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Where does one find that Jesus died in our stead? Also should He have died in our stead and He was a subsitute, why is not that word found[even its meaning] in the writing of the Gospels and Paul. Or for that matter why is it not made clear that Jesus died "instead" of us?
Because the wages of sin is death and Jesus payed teh wages to the last cent....?
QuoteYHVH are letters, I know they are of great importance, but we have not even scraped the surface of what has been revealed to us as individuals and yet we have some who will go off a wondering about somethings that,well right now have small importance.
Micah when someone is on a journey it's not bad to enjoy the scenery.
QuoteThere are many minds out there before us and now who reason and think with the natural mind, and find things that feed the natural mind of men and we, as human beings, just follow along and we lose track of studying and seeking the truth out of what has been given us.
How can that natural mind find truth? Every pastor seem to have his own truth. So....? I think the only way to prove the truth that is found really is the truth is by verifying it against all those seemingly useless facts.
You said it.....the wages of sin is death. Thats our end. Have we stopped dying because Jesus died on a tree? NO.
I say spending time in the scenery is a waste of our time.
But all your facts are brought forth my men and woman who get payed to find things that will give them pubplicity, money and put them in the front row. The natural mind is useless when studying the Word of God. In fact it causes confusion. I do not live by the "fact" that Jesus died for the sins of the world, I live by the knowledge and faith that He loved us to the point that He would lay down His life for mankind, that He would shed His blood for His creation.
It seems Adam got an almond rod from the Tree of Life. That rod was passed on though the generations until David planted it near the spot the original Tree of Life was. If that spot was Mount of Olives as some say it's not unimagible Jesus was crucified on the "same" almond tree that was in Eden.
"According to the Haggadah (narrative of the Talmud), the rod, with blossoms and fruit, was created at the twilight between the sixth day and the Sabbath of Creation....At the time of Adam's expulsion from the Garden, God gave the rod to Adam.(p. 115) ... which was engraved with the Ineffable Name of God (YHVH) (p. 119)..."
....
"According to rabbinical commentary and stories passed from generation, the rod transferred from Adam successively down the line to Enoch, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses an David.
....
"Undoubtedly, David's victory was proof of God's miraculous intervention. The rod, engraved with the Ineffable Name, bore witness to the authority which this miracle of redemption had been performed....The authors believe David planted the rod. The authors believe that the serpent had never been removed from the rod and, therefore must have remained attached to the almond tree as it grew. Subsequently, the serpent was removed and destroyed, but the almond tree was left intact. (pp. 128, 133)
....
"When Yeshua returns, He will set up His Throne in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 43:7). At this time, it is thought that the prophet Elijah will return the rod - a branch from the Tree of Life - to the Messiah...The Messiah will seat Himself on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies on Mount Moriah. He will replace the Ark that had symbolized Him, in the place where God had first fellowshipped with Adam and Eve, in the same place the Divine Presence dwelt among His People! Just as a branch from the Tree of Life was kept before the Ark, He will set the almond rod before Himself on the Throne of God, where the Tree of Life had grown in the Garden of Eden!" (p. 135)
More: http://watch.pair.com/rat2.html
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 01:12:56 PM
You said it.....the wages of sin is death. Thats our end. Have we stopped dying because Jesus died on a tree? NO.
No. I think the point isn't about dying or not. The point is staying dead or being resurrected.
The wages of sin is death. Nothing more nothing less. Not even judgement imo. But because of Jesus that changed. People die according to their wages. But get ressurected.
Simply put: imo it's about how long someone is dead. For ever? Or a limited time?
QuoteI say spending time in the scenery is a waste of our time.
I think the scenery is of great importance for understanding and as a defence against false teachings. Scenery is part of patterns. :2c:
QuoteBut all your facts are brought forth my men and woman who get payed to find things that will give them pubplicity, money and put them in the front row.
Give me one fact that's not from man. You can't. The whole Bible is interpretation. The scenery I'm talking about is also in the Bible. I think scenery like THIS (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/god_satan_and_naked_man._9890.msg126427.html#msg126427) is very important. I know you don't agree with that. That fine with me :winkgrin: I don't understand a lot of the scenery but if I only learned one thing during my time here, it's that there is no/very little scenery in the Bible. The HS found it important enough to add. Also keep in mind that the Bible written in a sort of shorthand because it was extremely time consuming to write. Not to mention costly. Moses wasn't typing at 30 words a minute on a laptop. That's another reason I think all scenery is left out.
:2c:
QuoteThe natural mind is useless when studying the Word of God. In fact it causes confusion. I do not live by the "fact" that Jesus died for the sins of the world, I live by the knowledge and faith that He loved us to the point that He would lay down His life for mankind, that He would shed His blood for His creation.
Don't you see the contradiction Micah? First you say your natural mind is not able to study and it's not a fact jesus died for the sins of the world. Then you claim Jesus loved mankind. How do you know that? Didn't you read that with you natural eyes and mind? Why declare love a fact and the other part a possibility?
For me it's about deduction and probabilities. I'm aware I'm likely alone in that approach :icon_jokercolor:
Lev 17:11 for the life of every living thing 1 is in the blood. 2 So I myself have assigned it to you 3 on the altar to make atonement for your lives, for the blood makes atonement by means of the life.
1John 2:2
and he himself is the atoning sacrifice 1 for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world. 2
Micah what does the atonement mean to you?
Lev 17:11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter.
propitiation : an atoning sacrifice
Lev 17:11 for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul.
atonement: reconciliation
expiate: to extinguish the guilt incurred by
"Micah what does the atonement mean to you?" He payed the price.
How is He paid the price different from He died in my place?
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 10, 2011, 11:18:57 PM
How is He paid the price different from He died in my place?
It isn't. The price is death.
It is.
We too must pick up our cross.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
I saw this word stead here, might add understanding, any thoughts?
The only thing worse than saying Christ didn't pay the price for everyone is to say he didn't pay the price for anyone.
even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
--Mat 20:28
I never said He did not pay the price now did I Molly.
It just does not let anyone off the hook from following Him.
Here, I am speaking about the High Calling in Christ Jesus; not Christian Babylon.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 10, 2011, 11:32:25 PM
I never said He did not pay the price now did I Molly.
It just does not let anyone off the hook from following Him.
Here, I am speaking about the High Calling in Christ Jesus; not Christian Babylon.
Because Jesus paid the price for me, I do not have to die.
Believe thou this?
Self must die, everyday.
I die daily on my cross, yet I live!
Believe thou that?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 10, 2011, 11:36:00 PM
Self must die, everyday.
I die daily on my cross, yet I live!
Believe thou that?
It's a question of how one understands that.
I don't understand that as Molly is dying and disappearing, never to be seen again. I understand that as Molly is becoming more and more what God intended her to be. That is, more Christlike.
That's life, not death.
It is "death" to Molly's self as she becomes the Will of God.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 10, 2011, 11:42:36 PM
It is "death" to Molly's self as she becomes the Will of God.
Not in the sense that I lose every quality that makes me unique.
We are each one unique. It is more in the sense that my behaviors, desires, and wishes become more aligned with God.
God is not making clones or drones, he is creating a family.
Exactly in His Image, as planned, we have the Mind of Christ.
Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 11, 2011, 12:19:51 AM
Exactly in His Image, as planned, we have the Mind of Christ.
Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
Yes, but this is life not death.
That's why he states the apparent contradiction--
Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.
--Luke 17:33
Quote from: Molly on August 10, 2011, 11:34:18 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 10, 2011, 11:32:25 PM
I never said He did not pay the price now did I Molly.
It just does not let anyone off the hook from following Him.
Here, I am speaking about the High Calling in Christ Jesus; not Christian Babylon.
Because Jesus paid the price for me, I do not have to die.
Believe thou this?
(CLV) And everyone who is living and believing in Me,
should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?
(YLT) and every one who is living and believing in me
shall not die--to the age; (Rotherham) Joh 11:26 And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die,
unto times age–abiding. Believest thou this?
(Emp. Diag) Joh 11:26 and all the living and believing into me, not
not may die into the age. Believest thou this?
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 12:29:34 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 10, 2011, 11:34:18 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 10, 2011, 11:32:25 PM
I never said He did not pay the price now did I Molly.
It just does not let anyone off the hook from following Him.
Here, I am speaking about the High Calling in Christ Jesus; not Christian Babylon.
Because Jesus paid the price for me, I do not have to die.
Believe thou this?
(CLV) And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?
(YLT) and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die--to the age;
(Rotherham) Joh 11:26 And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age–abiding. Believest thou this?
(Emp. Diag) Joh 11:26 and all the living and believing into me, not not may die into the age. Believest thou this?
which means what to you, Micah?
Amen.
Life abundantly.
And I pray this falls on fertile ground;
But unless a seed falls to the ground it abides alone.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 10, 2011, 11:36:00 PM
Self must die, everyday.
I die daily on my cross, yet I live!
Believe thou that?
The "old man" "old self" is DEAD.
(Rotherham)
Rom 7:17 Now, however, no longer am, I, working it out, but the, sin, that dwelleth in me:
Rom 7:18 I know, in fact, that there dwelleth not in me, that is, in my flesh, anything good; for, the wishing, lieth near me, but, the working out of what is right, not!
(Emp.Diag.)
Rom 7:17 Now but no longer I work out it, but the dwelling in me sin.
Rom 7:18 I know for, that not dwells in me, this is in the flesh of me, a good thing; the for to will is present with me, the but to work out the excellent, not I find.
Romans 7:17
(ASV) So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.
(CLV) Yet now it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me."
(KJV) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(WNT) and now it is no longer I that do these things, but the sin which has its home within me does them.
(YLT) and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me,
Romans 6:6
(WNT) This we know-
-that our old self was nailed to the cross with Him, in order that our sinful nature might be deprived of its power, so that we should no longer be the slaves of sin;
(YLT) this knowing,
that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
Eph.4:22
(WNT) Do not speak falsehoods to one another, for
you have stripped off the old self with its doings,
(YLT) Lie not one to another,
having put off the old man with his practices,
1Co 15:31
(Rotherham)
Day by day, am I dying!––Yea!
by your own boasting, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Emp. Diag)
Every day I die, by the your boasting, which I have in Anointed Jesus the Lord of us.
(Goodspeed)
By the very pride I take in you, brothers, through our union with Christ Jesus our Lord,
I face death every day.(Weymouth) I protest, brethren,
as surely as I glory over you—which I may justly do in Christ Jesus our Lord—
that I die day by day. (Ernest Malan)
Daily I face death—I swear it, Brothers,
by the pride in you that I feel through my union with Christ Jesus, our Lord.
You didn't answer my question, Micah.
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 01:03:41 AM
You didn't answer my question, Micah.
Ill get back to you Molly.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 01:02:10 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 10, 2011, 11:36:00 PM
Self must die, everyday.
I die daily on my cross, yet I live!
Believe thou that?
The "old man" "old self" is DEAD.
(Rotherham)
Rom 7:17 Now, however, no longer am, I, working it out, but the, sin, that dwelleth in me:
Rom 7:18 I know, in fact, that there dwelleth not in me, that is, in my flesh, anything good; for, the wishing, lieth near me, but, the working out of what is right, not!
(Emp.Diag.)
Rom 7:17 Now but no longer I work out it, but the dwelling in me sin.
Rom 7:18 I know for, that not dwells in me, this is in the flesh of me, a good thing; the for to will is present with me, the but to work out the excellent, not I find.
Romans 7:17
(ASV) So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.
(CLV) Yet now it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me."
(KJV) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(WNT) and now it is no longer I that do these things, but the sin which has its home within me does them.
(YLT) and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me,
Romans 6:6
(WNT) This we know--that our old self was nailed to the cross with Him, in order that our sinful nature might be deprived of its power, so that we should no longer be the slaves of sin;
(YLT) this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
Eph.4:22
(WNT) Do not speak falsehoods to one another, for you have stripped off the old self with its doings,
(YLT) Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices,
1Co 15:31
(Rotherham) Day by day, am I dying!––Yea! by your own boasting, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Emp. Diag) Every day I die, by the your boasting, which I have in Anointed Jesus the Lord of us.
(Goodspeed) By the very pride I take in you, brothers, through our union with Christ Jesus our Lord, I face death every day.
(Weymouth) I protest, brethren, as surely as I glory over you—which I may justly do in Christ Jesus our Lord—that I die day by day.
(Ernest Malan) Daily I face death—I swear it, Brothers, by the pride in you that I feel through my union with Christ Jesus, our Lord.
Amen.
Notice the verb tenses used above.
I died; I continue to die; I am dieing; I am continuing to die; I will die; and I will continue to die!
1Co 15:31
(Rotherham) Day by day, am I dying!––Yea! by your own boasting, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Emp. Diag) Every day I die, by the your boasting, which I have in Anointed Jesus the Lord of us.
(Goodspeed) By the very pride I take in you, brothers, through our union with Christ Jesus our Lord, I face death every day.
(Weymouth) I protest, brethren, as surely as I glory over you—which I may justly do in Christ Jesus our Lord—that I die day by day.
(Ernest Malan) Daily I face death—I swear it, Brothers, by the pride in you that I feel through my union with Christ Jesus, our Lord.
Do you believe that dying is to self? I believe Paul is talking about the fact that "he is dying the death of living in his mortal body." If the the "old self or old man" is dead and we are new creatures, then of what self are we dying, if it is not I, BUT sin that dwells in me, it is no longer me but the flesh that does it. At least thats how I have been given to understand it. I spent many years with the saying one must die to self, but when He showed me that Im dead(old man) then I must walk as straight as I am able by His Grace, which is sufficient for me. The old self/man is DEAD, he died when I was crucified with Christ. Peace
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 01:03:41 AM
You didn't answer my question, Micah.
This how I believe the Lord gave me to understand it.
""Eonian life" is life for the eons or life for the ages. However long the eons or ages are, that how long eonian or age-abiding life is. Then what?
Here's why unlearned theologians say this is not possible, because after the ages or eons, we would all die. NOT TRUE!
Let me illustrate. Suppose your company is going to buy you and everyone in your company an all-expense paid trip to Europe for one month. EVERYBODY gets that trip. However, because you are such a fabulous worker and such a asset to the company, your boss is going to send you on a trip to Europe for three whole weeks BEFORE everyone else goes on their trip. This is a SPECIAL, BONUS trip. Not many get to go on THIS particular bonus trip, only a few.
Now then, you get to go THREE WEEKS earlier than the rest. When they arrive, you have already been their enjoying yourself for THREE WEEKS. So when the others arrive to begin their vacation, does your vacation END? No. Only your "three week" vacation ends. But you CONTINUE to vacation in Europe just as long as the rest.Your hotel reservation is not cancelled after three weeks.
That is not a perfect illustration, but maybe you get the point. "Aionion" or "Age-lasting life" is a SPECIAL gift from God that only a relatively FEW ever receive. It is LIFE in God's Kingdom BEFORE the masses are brought into God's Kingdom. What allows those who are given "eonian life" to continue living even AFTER the eons are past, is not the promise from God of "eternal life" but rather "IMMORTALITY."
All of God's children will be given IMMORTALITY and INCORRUPTION, so that they will NEVER DIE. However, those who are given immortality before the rest, receive it ages or eons IN ADVANCE of the rest." L. Ray Smith
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 01:40:47 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 01:03:41 AM
You didn't answer my question, Micah.
This how I believe the Lord gave me to understand it.
""Eonian life" is life for the eons or life for the ages. However long the eons or ages are, that how long eonian or age-abiding life is. Then what?
Here's why unlearned theologians say this is not possible, because after the ages or eons, we would all die. NOT TRUE!
Let me illustrate. Suppose your company is going to buy you and everyone in your company an all-expense paid trip to Europe for one month. EVERYBODY gets that trip. However, because you are such a fabulous worker and such a asset to the company, your boss is going to send you on a trip to Europe for three whole weeks BEFORE everyone else goes on their trip. This is a SPECIAL, BONUS trip. Not many get to go on THIS particular bonus trip, only a few.
Now then, you get to go THREE WEEKS earlier than the rest. When they arrive, you have already been their enjoying yourself for THREE WEEKS. So when the others arrive to begin their vacation, does your vacation END? No. Only your "three week" vacation ends. But you CONTINUE to vacation in Europe just as long as the rest.Your hotel reservation is not cancelled after three weeks.
That is not a perfect illustration, but maybe you get the point. "Aionion" or "Age-lasting life" is a SPECIAL gift from God that only a relatively FEW ever receive. It is LIFE in God's Kingdom BEFORE the masses are brought into God's Kingdom. What allows those who are given "eonian life" to continue living even AFTER the eons are past, is not the promise from God of "eternal life" but rather "IMMORTALITY."
All of God's children will be given IMMORTALITY and INCORRUPTION, so that they will NEVER DIE. However, those who are given immortality before the rest, receive it ages or eons IN ADVANCE of the rest." L. Ray Smith
Exactly. So he offers life to some before the rest but eventually offers it to all. He is able to do this because it is his to give. He bought us at a price.
Now he says to us, to you and me, if you believe in me, you will never die. I believe in him, do you? So why all this talk of death when he has promised us we will never die?
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"--John 11:26
Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 02:41:05 AM
Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
I already died. I died with Christ. I am being judged NOW.
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God.--1Peter 4:17
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
--Rom 6
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 01:38:45 AM
If the the "old self or old man" is dead and we are new creatures, then of what self are we dying, if it is not I, BUT sin that dwells in me, it is no longer me but the flesh that does it.
Does the flesh act of its own?
How does the flesh commit sin???
The flesh is the veil.
But we walk by faith, not by sight.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 11, 2011, 04:55:08 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 01:38:45 AM
If the the "old self or old man" is dead and we are new creatures, then of what self are we dying, if it is not I, BUT sin that dwells in me, it is no longer me but the flesh that does it.
Does the flesh act of its own?
How does the flesh commit sin???
Who was the Lord God speaking to? Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Yes it was man, and man is what? Is he not flesh? Gen 2:21 And Jehovah God causeth a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he sleepeth, and He taketh one of his ribs, and closeth up flesh in its stead.
Rom 7:17 Yet now
it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me."
Rom 7:18 For I am aware that good is not making its home in me
(that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not."
If I walk into a bank and rob it, is it not I but my flesh that did it?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 11, 2011, 05:25:32 AM
If I walk into a bank and rob it, is it not I but my flesh that did it?
Did you yield to that weakness? Did the circumstance allow you to make that choice? Who did you listen to?
Rom 8:1 There is, then, now
no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
IF we are in the spirit, we have power over the flesh.
1Jn 3:8 Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning. For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary."
1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God."
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 06:40:03 AM
IF we are in the spirit, we have power over the flesh.
Thus: I die daily.
Our union with Christ in His death signifies that it is an accomplished fact in our spirits.
What a believer must do now is to bring this sure death out of his spirit and apply it to his members each time his wicked lusts may be aroused.
Such spiritual death is not a once for all proposition. Whenever the believer is not watchful or loses his faith, the flesh will certainly go on a rampage.
If he desires to be conformed completely to the Lord's death, he must unceasingly put to nought the deeds of his members so that what is real in the spirit
may be executed in the body.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 10:25:01 AM" Do they know the " Ineffable Name of God?"
I had a bright moment last night.
When Adam was kicked out of Eden he got an almond staff with the name of God engraved in it. That staff is passed on through the generations. Moses for example used it to part the red sea. Until finally David planted the staff on the Mount of Olives.
It's not hard to imagine that in those 4000 years the Jews read that name millions of times, so they should know. Many English Bible use Yaweh, YWH, Jehova, etc. that must be based on something.....
Quite frequently a staff is mentioned in the Bible, but it's not always clear what staff. For example the staff of Moses that turned into a snake in the court of the Pharo was made of saphire not wood.
Speaking about snakes.... The Son of man must be lifted up as Moses did with the snake in the wilderness. Everyone bitten by the snake that looks up to the snake will be healed. I guess that was the almond staff with God's name on it.
It was Roman custom to let the criminals carry their cross. In front of the criminal walked someone (soldier??) holding a staff with a small sign/plate on it with the crime committed. As we seen before that was the name of God. So here we have the name of God on a Roman staff.
Jesus was lifted up the almond tree and was nailed (grafted in I think) to it. Then that little plate was nailed above His head.
Jesus became the snake (I'm saying this with respect) on the almond staff (tree) with the name of God nailed on it (engraved), and whoever looks up to Him will be healed (saved).
Thousands did so that day...
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 11, 2011, 07:26:05 AM
Our union with Christ in His death signifies that it is an accomplished fact in our spirits.
What a believer must do now is to bring this sure death out of his spirit and apply it to his members each time his wicked lusts may be aroused.
Such spiritual death is not a once for all proposition. Whenever the believer is not watchful or loses his faith, the flesh will certainly go on a rampage.
If he desires to be conformed completely to the Lord's death, he must unceasingly put to nought the deeds of his members so that what is real in the spirit
may be executed in the body.
Amen Beloved Amen! Rom 8:13 For if you so live, death is near; but if, through
being under the sway of the spirit, you are putting your old bodily habits to death, you will live. The old man/self is DEAD, and now by the Power of the Holy Spirit we must hear and do, not allowing the flesh to have sway over us. We are ALIVE in Christ, and He is growing in us ONLY if we mind the things of the spirit.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 11, 2011, 07:54:11 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 10:25:01 AM" Do they know the " Ineffable Name of God?"
I had a bright moment last night.
When Adam was kicked out of Eden he got an almond staff with the name of God engraved in it. That staff is passed on through the generations. Moses for example used it to part the red sea. Until finally David planted the staff on the Mount of Olives.
It's not hard to imagine that in those 4000 years the Jews read that name millions of times, so they should know. Many English Bible use Yaweh, YWH, Jehova, etc. that must be based on something.....
Quite frequently a staff is mentioned in the Bible, but it's not always clear what staff. For example the staff of Moses that turned into a snake in the court of the Pharo was made of saphire not wood.
Speaking about snakes.... The Son of man must be lifted up as Moses did with the snake in the wilderness. Everyone bitten by the snake that looks up to the snake will be healed. I guess that was the almond staff with God's name on it.
It was Roman custom to let the criminals carry their cross. In front of the criminal walked someone (soldier??) holding a staff with a small sign/plate on it with the crime committed. As we seen before that was the name of God. So here we have the name of God on a Roman staff.
Jesus was lifted up the almond tree and was nailed (grafted in I think) to it. Then that little plate was nailed above His head.
Jesus became the snake (I'm saying this with respect) on the almond staff (tree) with the name of God nailed on it (engraved), and whoever looks up to Him will be healed (saved).
Thousands did so that day...
"When Adam was kicked out of Eden he got an almond staff with the name of God engraved in it."
Okay you got me here, I do not know of what you speak. ??????
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 02:52:15 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 02:41:05 AM
Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
I already died. I died with Christ. I am being judged NOW.
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God.
--1Peter 4:17
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
--Rom 6
Joh 12:24 In most solemn truth I tell you that
unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains what it was--a single grain; but that if it dies, it yields a rich harvest.
Joh 12:24 Verily! Verily, I say unto you: Except, the kernel of wheat,
shall fall into the ground, and die, it, alone, abideth; but, if it die, much fruit, it beareth.
Again I must ask where is this "spiritual death" in the bible? Man/adam the flesh must die. And yea we are being judged now.
Quote from: Molly on August 10, 2011, 10:12:40 AM
The Rod of an Almond Tree in God's Master Plan by Peter Michas
From Amazon.com:
Scripture records the existence of a miraculous rod that budded, producing blossoms and ripe almonds (Numbers 17:8). This same rod was used by Moses to part the Red Sea and by David in battle against Goliath. Hebraic sources link this miraculous rod to the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden! From the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden to the Crucifixion Tree on the Mount of Olives, the remarkable history of this miraculous almond rod is traced. Restoring Scripture to its Hebraic roots is the key to unlocking a deeper dimension and reveals ...
Jerusalem site of the original Garden of Eden Aaron's Rod a branch from Tree of Life The Biblical Holy Days God's prophetic timetable The Ineffable Name of God encoded in Pilates inscription The true timetable and location of the crucifixion and resurrection
A powerful masterpiece of revelation for the truth seeker believer or skeptic. Separates Biblical Truth from Religious Tradition.
Did you note the cover? That's how I see the crucificion scene in my mind.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416XD3XG7SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Quote from Amazon(the Michas's have often been accused of "heresy" by so-called "fundamentalist" Christians)
:laughing7:
Okay I agree " (the Michas's have often been accused of "heresy" by so-called "fundamentalist" Christians)
:laughing7:"
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 08:15:00 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 02:52:15 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 02:41:05 AM
Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
I already died. I died with Christ. I am being judged NOW.
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God.
--1Peter 4:17
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
--Rom 6
Joh 12:24 In most solemn truth I tell you that unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains what it was--a single grain; but that if it dies, it yields a rich harvest.
Joh 12:24 Verily! Verily, I say unto you: Except, the kernel of wheat, shall fall into the ground, and die, it, alone, abideth; but, if it die, much fruit, it beareth.
Again I must ask where is this "spiritual death" in the bible? Man/adam the flesh must die. And yea we are being judged now.
My body may die. I won't. I have already died and am being judged now. God has prepared an eternal body for me in heaven.
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Cor 5:1
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 08:15:00 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 02:52:15 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 02:41:05 AM
Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
I already died. I died with Christ. I am being judged NOW.
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God.
--1Peter 4:17
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
--Rom 6
Joh 12:24 In most solemn truth I tell you that unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains what it was--a single grain; but that if it dies, it yields a rich harvest.
Joh 12:24 Verily! Verily, I say unto you: Except, the kernel of wheat, shall fall into the ground, and die, it, alone, abideth; but, if it die, much fruit, it beareth.
Again I must ask where is this "spiritual death" in the bible? Man/adam the flesh must die. And yea we are being judged now.
My body may die. I won't. I have already died and am being judged now. God has prepared an eternal body for me in heaven.
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Cor 5:1
AMEN AMEN AND AMEN! :grin: :thumbsup: :happy3: :happygrin: :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 12:15:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 08:15:00 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 02:52:15 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 02:41:05 AM
Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
I already died. I died with Christ. I am being judged NOW.
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God.
--1Peter 4:17
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
--Rom 6
Joh 12:24 In most solemn truth I tell you that unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains what it was--a single grain; but that if it dies, it yields a rich harvest.
Joh 12:24 Verily! Verily, I say unto you: Except, the kernel of wheat, shall fall into the ground, and die, it, alone, abideth; but, if it die, much fruit, it beareth.
Again I must ask where is this "spiritual death" in the bible? Man/adam the flesh must die. And yea we are being judged now.
My body may die. I won't. I have already died and am being judged now. God has prepared an eternal body for me in heaven.
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Cor 5:1
AMEN AMEN AND AMEN! :grin: :thumbsup: :happy3: :happygrin: :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:
You suddenly agree? We have never agreed before on this. You do understand what I am saying? I will not die when this body gives out. God has prepared a celestial body for me to live in eternally [age-during to you].
The Scriptures allude to a people called out so that even their bodies will never taste death.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 11, 2011, 04:15:29 PM
The Scriptures allude to a people called out so that even their bodies will never taste death.
Do you mean at the end of the age?
I made no reference to time.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 11, 2011, 06:39:28 PM
I made no reference to time.
Do you have the scriptures?
I think Keanu Reeves might be one of those. :laughing7
http://www.keanuisimmortal.com/
"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 11, 2011, 07:14:09 PM
"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
Cool. Forgot about that one.
That one! has been crossing the very front of my mind for 20 years; I can't let go of it or get away from it.
"God has prepared a celestial body for me to live in eternally [age-during to you]." Molly Ok, here we go again. Where do I find this God has prepared a celestial body for you???
This is all I could find on that.
1Co 15:40 There are bodies which are celestial and there are bodies which are earthly, but the glory of the celestial ones is one thing, and that of the earthly ones is another.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 11, 2011, 07:14:09 PM
"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
I know its in there but I cant find it. A little help?? thanks
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 08:23:31 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 11, 2011, 07:14:09 PM
"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
I know its in there but I cant find it. A little help?? thanks
John 21:22
2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
That says I have an eternal body prepared for me in heaven Micah [celestial body], if this [earthly] tent of a body I am living in is destroyed.
Hi All, long time no see.
Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.
CHB
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 02:08:53 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 01:40:47 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 01:03:41 AM
You didn't answer my question, Micah.
This how I believe the Lord gave me to understand it.
""Eonian life" is life for the eons or life for the ages. However long the eons or ages are, that how long eonian or age-abiding life is. Then what?
Here's why unlearned theologians say this is not possible, because after the ages or eons, we would all die. NOT TRUE!
Let me illustrate. Suppose your company is going to buy you and everyone in your company an all-expense paid trip to Europe for one month. EVERYBODY gets that trip. However, because you are such a fabulous worker and such a asset to the company, your boss is going to send you on a trip to Europe for three whole weeks BEFORE everyone else goes on their trip. This is a SPECIAL, BONUS trip. Not many get to go on THIS particular bonus trip, only a few.
Now then, you get to go THREE WEEKS earlier than the rest. When they arrive, you have already been their enjoying yourself for THREE WEEKS. So when the others arrive to begin their vacation, does your vacation END? No. Only your "three week" vacation ends. But you CONTINUE to vacation in Europe just as long as the rest.Your hotel reservation is not cancelled after three weeks.
That is not a perfect illustration, but maybe you get the point. "Aionion" or "Age-lasting life" is a SPECIAL gift from God that only a relatively FEW ever receive. It is LIFE in God's Kingdom BEFORE the masses are brought into God's Kingdom. What allows those who are given "eonian life" to continue living even AFTER the eons are past, is not the promise from God of "eternal life" but rather "IMMORTALITY."
All of God's children will be given IMMORTALITY and INCORRUPTION, so that they will NEVER DIE. However, those who are given immortality before the rest, receive it ages or eons IN ADVANCE of the rest." L. Ray Smith
Exactly. So he offers life to some before the rest but eventually offers it to all. He is able to do this because it is his to give. He bought us at a price.
Now he says to us, to you and me, if you believe in me, you will never die. I believe in him, do you? So why all this talk of death when he has promised us we will never die?
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
--John 11:26
I understand your frustration on this one Molly. It is often difficult to distinguish between carnal and what God is doing.
Often Christians are accused of being carnal, but they are bringing new truth or revelations to the body. I mean if there is new things going on in church, people might call it vanity.
But to me I like what you said about Christ life is living and not dying. But yet there is a requirement for the disciples of Christ to die daily to their carnality or non Christ nature. Paul lists some of these and also lists attributes of Christ. However I don't see that he has listed all attributes of Christ like, e.g courage is missing.
I am not sure who is required to die daily. There is not much talk of this to certain individuals. Some are given simple instructions, such as the Roman soldier who was told to be content with your wages. But others like Paul and the disciples were required to pick up the cross.
Another example is that the man, who had legion demons, was told by Christ to not follow him, but go back to the village and tell them what happened. But yet to another man Christ says let the dead bury the dead and follow me.
I think in these days Christ is calling His body closer to Him and that makes them want to kill the sinful nature within, to follow the lamb wherever he goes.
Quote from: thinktank on August 11, 2011, 09:39:50 PMI understand your frustration on this one Molly. It is often difficult to distinguish between carnal and what God is doing.
I think God
also uses carnal things to do things.
Quote from: CHB on August 11, 2011, 09:29:58 PM
Hi All, long time no see.
Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.
CHB
Hi CHB!
this new body in heaven is called
"a building" [of God]
G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430;
architecture, that is, (concretely)
a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).
eternal in the heavens.
This oikodome contrasts with the earthly house we live in [this body]--oikia--in that the earthly house is compared to a tent --skene--a temporary cloth house whereas the oikodome is a considerable structure, eternal, not temporary, in nature.
Since in the other passage I've cited, Jesus tells those that believe in him that they will never die, that they will have eternal life [same word--aionios]--and now we see we have an eternal body in which to live that eternal [aionios] life--the two dovetail together.
Therefore, I believe that IF this physical body should be destroyed, I will immediately pass into the eternal body spoken of in this passage. In fact, I have already seen this body.
I also believe the next step after this will be a glorified body at the end of the age which will be our immortal dwelling place.
and so we shall always be with the Lord
IF ! :hithere:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 11, 2011, 07:14:09 PM
"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
John 21:22
(ASV) Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me.
(CLV) Jesus is saying to him, "If I should be wanting him to be remaining till I am coming, what is it to you? You be following Me!"
(KJV) Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
(WNT) "If I desire him to remain till I come," replied Jesus, "what concern is that of yours? You, yourself, must follow me."
(YLT) Jesus saith to him, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee? be thou following me.' This word, therefore, went forth to the brethren that that disciple doth not die,
Nothing here about "remaining alive,"(unless you count the poor witness) that I can find? But was giving it some thought and came around with this.
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith to him, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee? be thou following me.' This word, therefore, went forth to the brethren that that disciple doth not die,
This is an example of a poor witness.
But could this possibly be refering to, Acts 2:1-Act 2:4 and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit,
Joh 14:26 and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
Thoughts on it? And we sure have moved away from the original post, seems thats done alot, Me too.
Jesus here set a precedent that it is not outside the realm of possibility.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 11, 2011, 09:51:43 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 11, 2011, 09:39:50 PMI understand your frustration on this one Molly. It is often difficult to distinguish between carnal and what God is doing.
I think God also uses carnal things to do things.
Yes. The Internet is a good example, of how God uses this platform, built by the carnal ambitions of warfare, in a powerful way.
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 09:59:20 PM
Quote from: CHB on August 11, 2011, 09:29:58 PM
Hi All, long time no see.
Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.
CHB
Hi CHB!
this new body in heaven is called
"a building" [of God]
G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).
eternal in the heavens.
This oikodome contrasts with the earthly house we live in [this body]--oikia--in that the earthly house is compared to a tent --skene--a temporary cloth house whereas the oikodome is a considerable structure, eternal, not temporary, in nature.
Since in the other passage I've cited, Jesus tells those that believe in him that they will never die, that they will have eternal life [same word--aionios]--and now we see we have an eternal body in which to live that eternal [aionios] life--the two dovetail together.
Therefore, I believe that IF this physical body should be destroyed, I will immediately pass into the eternal body spoken of in this passage. In fact, I have already seen this body.
I also believe the next step after this will be a glorified body at the end of the age which will be our immortal dwelling place.
and so we shall always be with the Lord
Hi Molly,
I sure hope you are right and I am wrong. :happy3: The only thing about being dead that bothers me is thinking about remaining in the grave until Christ return and my resurrection.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on August 12, 2011, 12:25:31 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 09:59:20 PM
Quote from: CHB on August 11, 2011, 09:29:58 PM
Hi All, long time no see.
Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.
CHB
Hi CHB!
this new body in heaven is called
"a building" [of God]
G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).
eternal in the heavens.
This oikodome contrasts with the earthly house we live in [this body]--oikia--in that the earthly house is compared to a tent --skene--a temporary cloth house whereas the oikodome is a considerable structure, eternal, not temporary, in nature.
Since in the other passage I've cited, Jesus tells those that believe in him that they will never die, that they will have eternal life [same word--aionios]--and now we see we have an eternal body in which to live that eternal [aionios] life--the two dovetail together.
Therefore, I believe that IF this physical body should be destroyed, I will immediately pass into the eternal body spoken of in this passage. In fact, I have already seen this body.
I also believe the next step after this will be a glorified body at the end of the age which will be our immortal dwelling place.
and so we shall always be with the Lord
Hi Molly,
I sure hope you are right and I am wrong. :happy3: The only thing about being dead that bothers me is thinking about remaining in the grave until Christ return and my resurrection.
CHB
You will not be conscious. Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die,
But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 12, 2011, 12:31:29 AM
Quote from: CHB on August 12, 2011, 12:25:31 AM
Hi Molly,
I sure hope you are right and I am wrong. :happy3: The only thing about being dead that bothers me is thinking about remaining in the grave until Christ return and my resurrection.
CHB
You will not be conscious. Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
I am conscious now though, that is what I was referring to. Thinking about remaining dead until my resurrection. It would really be nice to know that when we die we go on and live with God and are not in the grave for any length of time. I am just not sure of this though. :dontknow:
CHB
Repent means to think differently. When we repent we think differently, we are a new creature 2Co 5:17 so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
that new creature has the mind of Christ
1Co 2:15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;
1Co 2:16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.
Think with that mind and you wont be thinking of such things. Peace and Love Through Jesus :bigGrin:
Quote from: CHB on August 12, 2011, 12:25:31 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 09:59:20 PM
Quote from: CHB on August 11, 2011, 09:29:58 PM
Hi All, long time no see.
Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.
CHB
Hi CHB!
this new body in heaven is called
"a building" [of God]
G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).
eternal in the heavens.
This oikodome contrasts with the earthly house we live in [this body]--oikia--in that the earthly house is compared to a tent --skene--a temporary cloth house whereas the oikodome is a considerable structure, eternal, not temporary, in nature.
Since in the other passage I've cited, Jesus tells those that believe in him that they will never die, that they will have eternal life [same word--aionios]--and now we see we have an eternal body in which to live that eternal [aionios] life--the two dovetail together.
Therefore, I believe that IF this physical body should be destroyed, I will immediately pass into the eternal body spoken of in this passage. In fact, I have already seen this body.
I also believe the next step after this will be a glorified body at the end of the age which will be our immortal dwelling place.
and so we shall always be with the Lord
Hi Molly,
I sure hope you are right and I am wrong. :happy3: The only thing about being dead that bothers me is thinking about remaining in the grave until Christ return and my resurrection.
CHB
Hi CHB!
Are you back in the Old Covenant with Micah and Solomon? Solomon turned into a degenerate heathen in his old age. The Old Covenant is a covenant with death. But, Jesus came to give us abundant life. King David understood that.
For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your holy one to rot in the grave.
--Psa 16:10
But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself. Selah
--Psa 49:15
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
--John 14:3
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 03:19:42 AM
Quote from: CHB on August 12, 2011, 12:25:31 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2011, 09:59:20 PM
Quote from: CHB on August 11, 2011, 09:29:58 PM
Hi All, long time no see.
Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.
CHB
Hi CHB!
this new body in heaven is called
"a building" [of God]
G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).
eternal in the heavens.
This oikodome contrasts with the earthly house we live in [this body]--oikia--in that the earthly house is compared to a tent --skene--a temporary cloth house whereas the oikodome is a considerable structure, eternal, not temporary, in nature.
Since in the other passage I've cited, Jesus tells those that believe in him that they will never die, that they will have eternal life [same word--aionios]--and now we see we have an eternal body in which to live that eternal [aionios] life--the two dovetail together.
Therefore, I believe that IF this physical body should be destroyed, I will immediately pass into the eternal body spoken of in this passage. In fact, I have already seen this body.
I also believe the next step after this will be a glorified body at the end of the age which will be our immortal dwelling place.
and so we shall always be with the Lord
Hi Molly,
I sure hope you are right and I am wrong. :happy3: The only thing about being dead that bothers me is thinking about remaining in the grave until Christ return and my resurrection.
CHB
Hi CHB!
Are you back in the Old Covenant with Micah and Solomon? Solomon turned into a degenerate heathen in his old age. The Old Covenant is a covenant with death. But, Jesus came to give us abundant life. King David understood that.
For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your holy one to rot in the grave.
--Psa 16:10
But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself. Selah
--Psa 49:15
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
--John 14:3
"Are you back in the Old Covenant with Micah and Solomon? Solomon turned into a degenerate heathen in his old age" Molly
Are refering to me? David was a murderer, and thats the old covenant, just where is Psalms in the new? I get the feeling that you consider the writings of Solomon are not a appropriate for us today. Are you saying that Ecc. 9:5 is not a truth? Just wondering :sigh:
2 Corinthians 5:8 >>
New Living Translation (2007)
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
Even in the King James I read that to mean: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Quote from: MicahDavid was a murderer, and thats the old covenant, just where is Psalms in the new? I get the feeling that you consider the writings of Solomon are not a appropriate for us today. Are you saying that Ecc. 9:5 is not a truth? Just wondering
Yes, I am saying that anyone who would quote Solomon over Jesus is missing the point. When Jesus says if you believe in me you will never die, you should believe it if you believe in him.
David made a mistake [murder] and he repented for it. But, David knew Jesus, and David had the indwelling Holy Spirit. David is also a type of priest and king, which means he is a type of Christ. So I would believe David any day over Solomon.
You want to follow Solomon? Get yourself a ton of money, wives, and horses and build altars to Baal.
1 Kings 11
King James Version (KJV)
1 Kings 11
1But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:
2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
11Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
12Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.
13Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.
Molech: "A detestable Semitic deity honored by the sacrifice of children, in which they were caused to pass through or into the fire. Palestinian excavations have uncovered evidences of infant skeletons in burial places around heathen shrines. Ammonites revered Molech as a protecting father. Worship of Molech was stringently prohibited by Hebrew law. (Lev. 18:21; 20:1-5) Solomon built an altar to Molech at Tophet in the Valley of Hinnon. Manasseh in his idolatrous orgy also honored this deity. Josiah desecrated the Hinnom Valley altar, but Jehoiakim revived the cult." Unger's Bible Dictionary by Merrill F. Unger (Chicago: Moody Press, 1957); page 416.
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 07:22:28 AMMolech: "A detestable Semitic deity honored by the sacrifice of children, in which they were caused to pass through or into the fire.
I was even worse.
It were babies. Not in the fire but roasted alive. Molech was a hollow bronze statue. The baby was put inside and the fire was lit on the outside of Molech.
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 05:49:09 AM
Quote from: MicahDavid was a murderer, and thats the old covenant, just where is Psalms in the new? I get the feeling that you consider the writings of Solomon are not a appropriate for us today. Are you saying that Ecc. 9:5 is not a truth? Just wondering
Yes, I am saying that anyone who would quote Solomon over Jesus is missing the point. When Jesus says if you believe in me you will never die, you should believe it if you believe in him.
David made a mistake [murder] and he repented for it. But, David knew Jesus, and David had the indwelling Holy Spirit. David is also a type of priest and king, which means he is a type of Christ. So I would believe David any day over Solomon.
You want to follow Solomon? Get yourself a ton of money, wives, and horses and build altars to Baal.
Listen it seems you always want to take verses out of the Bible OT or NT when it suits you. I have not put anyone over any one. The Bible is written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, from Gen. 1:1 to Rev.22:20 so I wouldnt be picken out just what you want.
Paul stated the first man was a living soul and you say no, first man was a spirit first.
Jesus says Joh 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
And you say when man dies he goes to heaven.
The Lord God says Gen 3:19 by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou art , and unto dust thou turnest back.'
And then Solomon comes and backs God up Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
And you say no. Well as for me Ill take Moses, Solomon, Paul, the Gospels, James all of them as the Word of God.
Peace and Love Through Jesus :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
Paul says God has prepared a body for us in heaven that is eternal.
It's there waiting for us should this earthly [body] tent be dissolved.
This confirms Jesus who says we will never die.
He actually uses a double negative for emphasis.
He says we will never, never die.
And, Jesus has the last word.
Let's read this really slowly together:
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
--John 3:16
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 10:04:27 AM
Paul says God has prepared a body for us in heaven that is eternal.
It's there waiting for us should this earthly [body] tent be dissolved.
This confirms Jesus who says we will never die.
It doesn't. The fact Father has a new tent for you doesn't mean you can't be "homeless" for a while after death
Quote from: MollyAnd, Jesus has the last word.
Let's read this really slowly together:
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
--John 3:16
YLTJohn 316 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
See that verse isn't about eternal life at all.
It simply says that believers won't be cast into LoF.
:2c:
QuoteIt doesn't. The fact Father has a new tent for you doesn't mean you can't be "homeless" for a while after death
Read my lips: I am NOT going to be homeless.
Although, this might be the meaning of being naked in Revelation. The unbelievers might be homeless for a while, until they meet and know Jesus.
Also, I am not going to split hairs over aionios life. We know it is longer than this life on earth. And we also know that we will have glorified bodies some day when His kingdom comes to earth. At that time, we will be immortal because WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM.
Fine. But there is nothing that proves there is or isn't death. The verse isn't about that topic so it can't be used to (dis)prove anything regarding that topic.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2011, 10:24:29 AM
Fine. But there is nothing that proves there is or isn't death. The verse isn't about that topic so it can't be used to (dis)prove anything regarding that topic.
:2c:
What do you mean?
Shall not perish is about death. =Shall not die.
whoever believes in him shall not die. How many ways are there to say it?
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:10
The wages of sin is death. He paid the price for us with his death. We no longer have to die.
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
Rev 1:5
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life...
John 3:36
Perish in LoF as a goat.
People are resurrected. Good people and bad people. The mass of humanity stands before the Throne and gets seperated in Lambs for life and Goats to perish a second death.
If good people don't die they can't be resurrected. Unless you think it's only about OT saints. In that case I would like to see some proof for that.
whoever believes in him shall not die a a sencond death....?
Look, I'm not saying there isn't support for not dying at all (for some). Maybe you have hunderds of verses that support your claim. It's just that imo John 3:16 isn't one of them.
Few possibilities as I see them :
a] SAINTS: This life -----> Death ----> Age-during life ---> Eternity
b] SINNERS: This life ---> death ----> Second death ----> Eternity
c] SAINTS: This life ----> Age during life ----> Eternity
d] SINNERS: This life -----> Second death instanly after death ---> Eternity
c] comes very close to/is your view. But then we need proof age-during life directly follows this life.
There is no gap between life and life.
Believers have already crossed over from death to life. There is no more death.
I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS ETERNAL LIFE.
John 6:47
I checked a few translations an none of them use "never".
For me John 3:16 only says that believers have an age of life while others don't.
When? How long? That's not in the verse.
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 11:01:24 AM
There is no gap between life and life.
Believers have already crossed over from death to life. There is no more death.Quote
Death still has it's sting.
I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS ETERNAL LIFE.
John 6:47
You edited while I was making my previous post. I leave that one and as a reply to John 6:47
YLTJohn 647 `Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is believing in me, hath life age-during;
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2011, 11:13:34 AM
I checked a few translations an none of them use "never".
For me John 3:16 only says that believers have an age of life while others don't.
When? How long? That's not in the verse.
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment,
but has passed from death to life.
--John 5:24
We have already passed from death to life. Start the clock ticking on eternal life right now.
John 3:16 says SHALL NOT DIE and SHALL NOT PERISH
John 11:26 says SHALL NEVER DIE
Paul says if we lose this body, God has a body waiting for us in heaven.
How many ways does he have to slice and dice it before people will understand?
3:16 and 11:26 are useles.
But 5:24 seems to support your view.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2011, 11:39:59 AM
3:16 and 11:26 are useles.
But 5:24 seems to support your view.
I'm trying to figure out what your thought process is such that you cannot understand shall not perish, and I think you are thinking too much. That statement is very direct and should be taken in the simplest way possible. For instance, if I am in a burning building, and a fireman shows up and says, I'm here, you will not die, I would take that as a very direct statement. I would not take it to mean that I am going to die but...later something will happen and I will no longer be dead.
You seem to read it and it sets off this process in your head of death and resurrection and white throne judgment and who knows what else. That process is not contained in this statement. This is a very simple statement of fact, whoever believes in him will not die but [instead of dying]shall have everlasting life.
There is no indication in that sentence that anything is happening other than the person is now enjoying everlasting life for an uninterrupted everlasting period of time. There is no indication in that sentence that this will be taken away from him and then given back or that this will be not given now but later or anything else. It's here, it's now, it's given. It's very simple English.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him
shall not perish, but have everlasting life.John 3:16
I think ww is saying that aionos life =/= everlasting.
JOh 6:54 The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. Does this speak of a resurrection?
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. Definition of eternal life
This is another of those topics that I see as through an amusement park viewfinder :laughing7: I see both sides of the discussion, I'm kind of like Switzerland on this
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 12, 2011, 12:53:28 PM
I think ww is saying that aionos life =/= everlasting.
JOh 6:54 The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. Does this speak of a resurrection?
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. Definition of eternal life
This is another of those topics that I see as through an amusement park viewfinder :laughing7: I see both sides of the discussion, I'm kind of like Switzerland on this
Yes, I can see the Greek, I understand it is saying aionios life, but I choose to use the English words the translators use to avoid confusion.
First of all, no one knows how long aionios life is, but one meaning of the word is perpetual, one meaning eternal, and one meaning age-during. We could all agree that it is a long and unknown period of time.
But, my main point is that we have everlasting life NOW. Right now. And, it will continue for a very long period of time. That means it will transcend the physical death of the earthly body which is in danger of speedy disappearance being transient and not eternal in nature.
got it
what about the raise him up on the last day verse?
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 12, 2011, 01:05:51 PM
got it
what about the raise him up on the last day verse?
Clearly, when we die, are bodies are no longer being used as our home. 2Cor 5 tells us at that point God gives us an eternal home in heaven.
But, at some point our bodies will be redeemed as glorified bodies. He is saving us from the inside out. Spirit, then soul, then body. The redemption of the body is the last thing to happen.
Is the soul saved after death? (first or second death) and then the body after? Life aionos?
Just trying to see through your glasses
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 12, 2011, 01:14:22 PM
Is the soul saved after death? (first or second death) and then the body after? Life aionos?
Just trying to see through your glasses
I see us as the firstfruits. Our souls are saved now. We have everlasting life now.
Jesus takes an interesting attitude towards death. Remember when he says, Our friend Lazarus is sleeping, let's go wake him up. And the disciples take that literally--sleeping? Oh, then he's still alive. Then Jesus says, he's dead.
So for Jesus, and we see this in the use of the Greek and Hebrew words, death has the connotation of sleeping. But we shall not all sleep...
Now you can also be asleep and walking around on your own two feet, hence let the dead bury their dead [because they do not know about aionios life].
Our souls are saved from our dying to ourselves? Spirit saved by Jesus dying?
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 12, 2011, 01:23:41 PM
Our souls are saved from our dying to ourselves? Spirit saved by Jesus dying?
well, I see that dying to self in a different way than most I think.
It sounds like a grueling process. Remember Martin Luther in his cell scourging his own back with whips? People can really get carried away if they do not understand what is going on here.
What is going on is that Christ is getting bigger inside of us and our carnal desires, thoughts, and wishes are getting smaller. It's not about anything we can do except to pay attention to it and keep our eyes on Jesus. So, yes, we might bridle our tongue, but only He can change our hearts. Our spirits are purified by the Holy Spirit. Our souls are saved by being entwined with his.
So his dying for us means that this process can now begin, for some in this age, for others in another age. I really believe that he doesn't want to be separated from us any more than we want to be separated from him. :2c:
I was just thinking about this before your last post, and I thunked
The veil that was rent in the temple was between the Most Holy, and the Holy. Spirit and soul. If the veil was removed the Shekinah should(?) cleanse the rest of the temple, just by being the presence of God. Not by anything the priests could do.
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 12, 2011, 01:54:57 PM
I was just thinking about this before your last post, and I thunked
The veil that was rent in the temple was between the Most Holy, and the Holy. Spirit and soul. If the veil was removed the Shekinah should(?) cleanse the rest of the temple, just by being the presence of God. Not by anything the priests could do.
Yes, it's David's three sided tent!
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 01:10:37 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 12, 2011, 01:05:51 PM
got it
what about the raise him up on the last day verse?
Clearly, when we die, are bodies are no longer being used as our home. 2Cor 5 tells us at that point God gives us an eternal home in heaven.
But, at some point our bodies will be redeemed as glorified bodies. He is saving us from the inside out. Spirit, then soul, then body. The redemption of the body is the last thing to happen.
I was thinking the same thing as RHM was about "raising up at the last day". I believe the Baptist believe the same as you do. They believe that we go on to heaven or hell when we die, later at Jesus coming our bodies are raised up and we are united with our bodies.
I do believe there was a change in death and all things after the crucifixion and resurrection but this one thing about going on to heaven when we die is hard for me to see. I just don't see the purpose of reuniting our spirit with our bodies that have decayed.
Another question: What about when Jesus said "all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth"? This doesn't sound like they were already in heaven.
CHB
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 10:38:39 AM
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:10
The wages of sin is death. He paid the price for us with his death. We no longer have to die.
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
Rev 1:5
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life...
John 3:36
"
The wages of sin is death. He paid the price for us with his death. We no longer have to die." Molly
Jesus paid the ransom for
SIN, He did not pay the ransom for
DEATH.
(YLT) and as it is laid up to
men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Molly your old man is dead, crucified with Christ, BUT you Molly[mankind/human being] is not dead. Are you?
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 11:01:24 AM
There is no gap between life and life.
Believers have already crossed over from death to life. There is no more death.
I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS ETERNAL LIFE.
John 6:47
"Believers have already crossed over from death to life.
There is no more death."
The only place I can find your statement is
Rev 21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes;
and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 11:22:09 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2011, 11:13:34 AM
I checked a few translations an none of them use "never".
For me John 3:16 only says that believers have an age of life while others don't.
When? How long? That's not in the verse.
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
--John 5:24
We have already passed from death to life. Start the clock ticking on eternal life right now.
John 3:16 says SHALL NOT DIE and SHALL NOT PERISH
John 11:26 says SHALL NEVER DIE
Paul says if we lose this body, God has a body waiting for us in heaven.
How many ways does he have to slice and dice it before people will understand?
Could you clarify with book and verse your statement "Paul says if we lose this body, God has a body waiting for us in heaven."
Just thought of something. If we have a body waiting for us in heaven why do we need these old rotten bodies that are in the grave?
CHB
The Lord desired a place to plant seed.
Quote from: CHB on August 12, 2011, 04:25:52 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 01:10:37 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 12, 2011, 01:05:51 PM
got it
what about the raise him up on the last day verse?
Clearly, when we die, our bodies are no longer being used as our home. 2Cor 5 tells us at that point God gives us an eternal home in heaven.
But, at some point our bodies will be redeemed as glorified bodies. He is saving us from the inside out. Spirit, then soul, then body. The redemption of the body is the last thing to happen.
I was thinking the same thing as RHM was about "raising up at the last day". I believe the Baptist believe the same as you do. They believe that we go on to heaven or hell when we die, later at Jesus coming our bodies are raised up and we are united with our bodies.
I do believe there was a change in death and all things after the crucifixion and resurrection but this one thing about going on to heaven when we die is hard for me to see. I just don't see the purpose of reuniting our spirit with our bodies that have decayed.
Another question: What about when Jesus said "all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth"? This doesn't sound like they were already in heaven.
CHB
The Baptists believe the same? That's cool. Baptists are hard to find where I live.
The change in death after the resurrection is that those who believe in him now have eternal life. Or think of it as perpetual life, one of the definitions of aionios. That is, the spirit and soul leave the earthly body and continue living.
The purpose of reuniting with our bodies [which will be in a glorified form] is because it is part of the deal. We are being redeemed spirit, soul, and body. If that sounds silly, we can now see that a body can be cloned from one cell. The Book of life could just be a DNA database. 30 years ago I could not have said those words. Nobody would have understood what I was talking about.
Why do we wait in heaven for this? Because the Christ is a hologram. We are waiting for each member to be perfected until, like lightning shines from the east to the west, all appear at once.
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.--Heb 11
Quote from: MicahCould you clarify with book and verse your statement "Paul says if we lose this body, God has a body waiting for us in heaven."
That's what Paul is saying in 2Cor 5.
1For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 07:25:09 PM
that they without us should not be made perfect.
The Great Cloud!
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 07:52:26 PM
Quote from: MicahCould you clarify with book and verse your statement "Paul says if we lose this body, God has a body waiting for us in heaven."
That's what Paul is saying in 2Cor 5.
1For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.
Here we go again, you say that when we die we go to heaven that means I must remove these verses from my Bible as well.
1Co 15:12 But if Christ is preached as having risen from the dead, how is it that some of you say that there is no such thing as a resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13
If there is no such thing as a resurrection of the dead, then Christ Himself has not risen to life. 1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not risen, it follows that what we preach is a delusion, and that your faith also is a delusion.
1Co 15:15 Nay more, we are actually being discovered to be bearing false witness about God, because we have testified that God raised Christ to life, whom He did not raise, if in reality none of the dead are raised.
1Co 15:16
For if none of the dead are raised to life, then Christ has not risen;
1Co 15:17 and if Christ has not risen, your faith is a vain thing--you are still in your sins.
Quote from: MicahHere we go again, you say that when we die we go to heaven that means I must remove these verses from my Bible as well.
I didn't invent that we go to heaven when THE EARTHLY BODY DIES. Paul says that. Paul also said he went to heaven when he was alive.
You don't have to remove any scriptures from your Bible. Just understand them. But, until we can understand something, maybe it's better to lay it aside for a while.
Paul spoke of a 'better' resurrection.....the one into incorruption and immortality. heaven...that flesh was raised up....also was evidenced by Lazarus and many...
they expierenced a secound death...only to portray the 'real' twice dead in the scriptures
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 09:31:08 PM
Quote from: MicahHere we go again, you say that when we die we go to heaven that means I must remove these verses from my Bible as well.
I didn't invent that we go to heaven when THE EARTHLY BODY DIES. Paul says that. Paul also said he went to heaven when he was alive.
You don't have to remove any scriptures from your Bible. Just understand them. But, until we can understand something, maybe it's better to lay it aside for a while.
"I didn't invent that we go to heaven when THE EARTHLY BODY DIES. Paul says that. Paul also said he went to heaven when he was alive."
Paul said not such things.
2Co 12:2 I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago--whether in the body I have not known,
whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known--such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;
Paul said he was caught up/away,
it was a vision of revelation. He did not go anywhere.At least he didn't know "whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known,"When Peter, John, James saw the transfiguration, they did not go anywhere,
it was a vision. You speak as though heaven was a place or physical location.
And not one place in the Bible can I find glorified connected to bodies.Understanding what the Bible teaches is different from what religion prints.
Quote from: MicahPaul said not such things.
So why don't you explain what you think he's saying in 2Cor 5. Take the scripture and explain what he is saying from it.
QuotePaul said he was caught up/away, it was a vision of revelation. He did not go anywhere.
Paul says he was 'caught up' to the third heaven. He says he doesn't know whether he was in the body or out of the body. He says he was caught up to Paradise and heard unspeakable words which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
NOWHERE does Paul say this was a 'vision.' Harpazo is the rapture word. It means to be seized.
"caught up" [to the third heaven]
G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazōhar-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138;
to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull,
take (by force).
If you want to treat these things as visions instead of the real thing, why don't we just give it up and smoke dope and have our own visions.
QuoteAnd not one place in the Bible can I find glorified connected to bodies.
What do you think it will mean to be glorified? What do think it will mean to be like him? You think we will be in these decaying bodies and be called glorified? or be called 'like him'?
We have been justified by his blood and now we are on a process that won't stop until it is completed.
20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21
who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
--Phil 3
You tell me what a glorified body is
Thayer Definition:
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
4a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
4b) to make renowned, render illustrious
4b1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G1391
Citing in TDNT: 2:253, 178
G1392
δοξάζω
doxazō
dox-ad'-zo
From G1391; to render (or esteem) glorious (in a wide application): - (make) glorify (-ious), full of (have) glory, honour, magnify.
G1391
δόξα
doxa
dox'-ah
From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.
Our lowly bodies are going to be transformed into his glorious body--so why don't you tell me what his glorious [post resurrection or transfiguration] body is like? There are plenty of descriptions of it in the Bible.
"transform"
G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
"If you want to treat these things as visions instead of the real thing, why don't we just give it up and smoke dope and have our own visions." Molly
I really dont believe that you meant that. So I will over look it, but you "say" all these things like they were literal and phyisical happenings. I do not believe anything has changed with Paul or any of the writers of the NT, they still teach what Jesus taught, His words are their words, and Jesus' words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.
Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
And I believe this with all my heart and mind 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
--Phil 3
Peace and Love Through Jesus :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 11:41:15 PM
Our lowly bodies are going to be transformed into his glorious body--so why don't you tell me what his glorious [post resurrection or transfiguration] body is like? There are plenty of descriptions of it in the Bible.
"transform"
G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
Amen I believe that! I Know that :grin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 12, 2011, 11:44:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 11:41:15 PM
Our lowly bodies are going to be transformed into his glorious body--so why don't you tell me what his glorious [post resurrection or transfiguration] body is like? There are plenty of descriptions of it in the Bible.
"transform"
G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
Amen I believe that! I Know that :grin:
Then why did you say there is nothing about glorified bodies in the Bible?
Quote from: MicahAnd not one place in the Bible can I find glorified connected to bodies.
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 11:49:06 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 12, 2011, 11:44:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 11:41:15 PM
Our lowly bodies are going to be transformed into his glorious body--so why don't you tell me what his glorious [post resurrection or transfiguration] body is like? There are plenty of descriptions of it in the Bible.
"transform"
G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
Amen I believe that! I Know that :grin:
Then why did you say there is nothing about glorified bodies in the Bible?
Quote from: MicahAnd not one place in the Bible can I find glorified connected to bodies.
Our lowly bodies are going to be
transformed into
his glorious body--so why don't you tell me what his glorious [post resurrection or transfiguration] body is like? There are plenty of descriptions of it in the Bible.
That reads "glorious" and it is HIS body. You keep going on about gettin or havin a glorified body, thats what Im speaking of.
Nowhere that I can find does it say we will have glorified bodys. We will be glorified IN His Body perhaps. And what you say about Paul and the third heaven and being caught up, I just read a thought thats seems to have merit. Paul was a NEW creature/new man could it have been that new creature that was caught up to the third heaven/paradise? I mean when you receive a word from the Lord, I believe that is your catching up that third heaven, where there are unspeakable things heard that you may not at the moment you come back to this realm that you are not able to speak right now. Wasnt it Peter who said that bro. Paul had somethings to say that were hard to hear?
Quote from: MicahThat reads "glorious" and it is HIS body. You keep going on about gettin or havin a glorified body, thats what Im speaking of.
Nowhere that I can find does it say we will have glorified bodys. We will be glorified IN His Body perhaps.
It says in Phil 3 that our lowly body will be transformed to be like his glorious body. Let's read it again::
20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21
who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
--Phil 3
So, just to be clear, tell me how you are reading that again?
You said, "we will be glorified IN his body." In simple English--what does that mean?
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2011, 02:12:45 AM
Quote from: MicahThat reads "glorious" and it is HIS body. You keep going on about gettin or havin a glorified body, thats what Im speaking of.
Nowhere that I can find does it say we will have glorified bodys. We will be glorified IN His Body perhaps.
It says in Phil 3 that our lowly body will be transformed to be like his glorious body. Let's read it again::
20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
--Phil 3
So, just to be clear, tell me how you are reading that again?
You said, "we will be glorified IN his body." In simple English--what does that mean?
The same thing. If we are not in we cant be like.
Php 3:21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming
conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.
Ive asked you before what is a glorious body?
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 13, 2011, 03:15:42 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2011, 02:12:45 AM
Quote from: MicahThat reads "glorious" and it is HIS body. You keep going on about gettin or havin a glorified body, thats what Im speaking of.
Nowhere that I can find does it say we will have glorified bodys. We will be glorified IN His Body perhaps.
It says in Phil 3 that our lowly body will be transformed to be like his glorious body. Let's read it again::
20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
--Phil 3
So, just to be clear, tell me how you are reading that again?
You said, "we will be glorified IN his body." In simple English--what does that mean?
The same thing. If we are not in we cant be like.
Php 3:21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.
Ive asked you before what is a glorious body?
No. You still haven't explained to me how you see this.
I have said that our bodies will be transformed into glorified bodies like his glorified body. That is a very simple statement. I am talking about believers now. You don't like that explanation. So tell me in clear English--how do you see this differently?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 11, 2011, 09:51:43 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 11, 2011, 09:39:50 PMI understand your frustration on this one Molly. It is often difficult to distinguish between carnal and what God is doing.
I think God also uses carnal things to do things.
He does that all the time, use carnal things to turn out good. He has been doing that from the Beginning. We can see it right there in the Garden, man ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. thats pretty carnal. And whats he doing with that......? And how about Joseph being thrown in that pit by his brothers, pretty carnal.....and what did He do with that..?
Glory is a hard word to define but the word LIGHT is common among the explanations.
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2011, 03:22:31 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 13, 2011, 03:15:42 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2011, 02:12:45 AM
Quote from: MicahThat reads "glorious" and it is HIS body. You keep going on about gettin or havin a glorified body, thats what Im speaking of.
Nowhere that I can find does it say we will have glorified bodys. We will be glorified IN His Body perhaps.
It says in Phil 3 that our lowly body will be transformed to be like his glorious body. Let's read it again::
20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
--Phil 3
So, just to be clear, tell me how you are reading that again?
You said, "we will be glorified IN his body." In simple English--what does that mean?
The same thing. If we are not in we cant be like.
Php 3:21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.
Ive asked you before what is a glorious body?
No. You still haven't explained to me how you see this.
I have said that our bodies will be transformed into glorified bodies like his glorified body. That is a very simple statement. I am talking about believers now. You don't like that explanation. So tell me in clear English--how do you see this differently?
Friend I can see what you are saying, and I will agree because it is so; our humiliation will be conformed to His glorious body but your explanations seem to see this conforming without dying. You say that this will take place when we die, correct?
I myself do not have the slightest idea what a glorious body will look like. Do you?
Yes Beloved light would be something to start with since He did in the beginning.
I just noticed that only the WNT is the only translation of 6 that uses the word "transform" the others use "conformed" or as the KJV uses "fashioned." Fashioned G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
in old paintings a glory light/halo/crown was painted on/above heads of saints...MIND OF CHRIST/incorruptible new body....cloven tongues speaks
of seperation and distinction...truth from deception. He appears again 'apart' from sin[error] fire/burn chaff out of us...head of wheat
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 12, 2011, 04:15:18 AM
2 Corinthians 5:8 >>
New Living Translation (2007)
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
Even in the King James I read that to mean: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
(KJV) We are confident, I say, and
willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.
(CLV) yet we are encouraged, and are
delighting rather to be away from home out of the body
and to be at home with the Lord."
Now that "and" could very will be a considerable amount of time yes? Also we see that, they would "willing and delighting"
RATHER to be away or be absent. I would to! :grin:
Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2011, 10:25:43 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2011, 10:24:29 AM
Fine. But there is nothing that proves there is or isn't death. The verse isn't about that topic so it can't be used to (dis)prove anything regarding that topic.
:2c:
What do you mean?
Shall not perish is about death. =Shall not die.
whoever believes in him shall not die. How many ways are there to say it?
How are we to understand this one Molly, its saying just about what you brought forward. Just wondering.
1Jn 3:9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and
he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and
he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.
the begotton spirit in us has to be born again from above[clothed] in incorruption too!
Quote from: MicahFriend I can see what you are saying, and I will agree because it is so; our humiliation will be conformed to His glorious body but your explanations seem to see this conforming without dying. You say that this will take place when we die, correct?
First of all, our bodies will not be 'conformed,' they will be 'transformed' into his glorious [glorified] body. Those are different Greek words.
Second, I said this would happen at the end of the age when the entire body of Christ [his brothers] are brought in. That is why I quoted from Hebrews which says the Old Testament saints have to wait for us for the promise to be fulfilled.
Third, I have said if we believe in Jesus we will never die and that God has prepared a body for us in heaven. I did not say anything about what this body might be like, not did I say that this is the same body as the glorified body we are talking about here. In fact, I consider it an interim body between the one we have now and the glorified body, and I believe that is what 2Cor 5 is telling us.
QuoteI myself do not have the slightest idea what a glorious body will look like. Do you?
Yes, just like you, I have the descriptions of it in the Bible.
Again, the word in Phil 3:21 is 'transform' not 'conform.'
"transform"
G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
This glorified body will be a different body than the one we have now.
So, are we on the same page yet? And, if not, how not?
Ill stand corrected on .....First of all, our bodies will not be 'conformed,' they will be 'transformed' into his glorious [glorified] body. Those are different Greek words. After checking 35 translations its transformed, dont know how I got conformed.
Second, I said this would happen at the end of the age when the entire body of Christ [his brothers] are brought in. That is why I quoted from Hebrews which says the Old Testament saints have to wait for us for the promise to be fulfilled.
This I new but I guess I did see it.
I cannot support this one....
Third, I have said if we believe in Jesus we will never die......
You may be talking about some "spiritual death" but the writer in Hebrews is talking of expiration. Judgement begins in the house of God, and He is judging those now in that house.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
But will die or Paul is incorrect.
1Co 15:16 for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
Quote from: MicahI cannot support this one....
Third, I have said if we believe in Jesus we will never die......
Ok. We can agree to disagree on that.
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2011, 04:41:46 AM
Quote from: MicahI cannot support this one....
Third, I have said if we believe in Jesus we will never die......
Ok. We can agree to disagree on that.
:mshock: :HeartThrob: :bgdance:
QuoteHeaven is not a place.
Heaven is a place:
For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven.
He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf.
--Heb 9:24
Heaven is not a part of this creation:
Hebrews 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say,
not a part of this creation.We can trust in Jesus, our advocate in heaven:
Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest
who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.
Jesus has prepared a place for us in heaven:
And if
I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:2
We have a house [body] prepared for us in heaven:
For we know that if this poor tent, our earthly house, is taken down,
we have in Heaven a building which God has provided, a house not built by human hands, but eternal.
2Cor 5:1
We will follow Jesus to heaven:
Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now,
but you will follow later."John 13:36
I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,
because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.2 Pet 1:14
:sigh:
bye
JESUS THE KINSMAN REDEEMER
Hebrews 2:11-18
He has sent redemption to His people; He has ordained His covenant forever; holy and awesome is His name. (Psalm 111:9).
Slavery was a very common institution in the ancient world. There were a number of ways in which a man might become a slave.
He might he born into slavery. The son of a slave was himself considered a slave.
He might be captured by an invading array and become a prized captive, led away in chains to a foreign country to be sold as a slave.
He might fall into debt so that he was forced to declare bankruptcy. This involved selling yourself into slavery to pay the debts that were owed.
Picture the situation of this last scenario. An Israelite living in the land of Palestine is hit with economic disaster. Perhaps a famine has come over the land and wiped out his crops. Rather than resort to begging, he sells himself into slavery, using the proceeds to pay off his debts and to care for his starving family.
And so, he becomes a slave. Can he ever regain his freedom? Yes. But it can only happen if the redemption price is paid.
Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family, 48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his brothers may redeem him, 49 or his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him; or if he prospers, he may redeem himself." (Leviticus 25:47-49).
This was the Law of the Kinsman Redeemer. It listed four qualifications which were necessary for a man to fulfill the role of Kinsman Redeemer. It was only when a man possessed these four qualities that he was permitted to perform this task.
1. He must be a Kinsman.
The passage is very explicit that this redeemer must be related to the one whom he is going to buy back out of slavery.
2. He must be Free himself.
A slave was unable to purchase another slave. A Kinsman Redeemer must be himself free of the debt and of the bondage which had fallen on the one who was to be redeemed.
3. He must be able to Pay the Price.
If he did not have the necessary sum of money which was required to pay the purchase price, then he would not be able to redeem his relative.
4. He must be Willing to pay the price.
It was not enough to have a kinsman who was able to accomplish the work of redemption. He must also be willing to make the sacrifice of paying the price. I imagine that there were a number of slaves with rich uncles who just didn't want to spend the money to release their unfortunate relative from slavery.
Each of these qualifications was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. God sent Jesus into the world s slave market of sin to purchase men from their bondage of sin. He alone met the qualifications of the Kinsman Redeemer.
He became a Kinsman by taking on flesh and becoming a man. He was free from the bondage of sin. He was able to pay the ransom price. He was willing to pay the price.
THE PROMISE OF A KINSMAN
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying, "I will proclaim Thy name to My brethren, in the midst of the congregation I will sing Thy praise."
And again, "I will put My trust in Him." And again, "Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me." (Hebrews 2:11-13).
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/hb02-11.html
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2011, 11:32:10 AM
The Almond Tree, in Hebrew "Light"
The almont tree is the first tree that blossoms after winter.
Sorry for the slighly late answer :laughing7: