Died In My Stead?

[Molly]

Imo nailed to a tree could be seen as grafted in?


http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/revelation_221819_taken_out_book_life_8986.msg116954.html#msg116954

OMG that's beautiful!

He's grafting everyone into the tree of life!

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

--2 Cor 5

[Molly]

Adam dies as a result of eating the tree of kge, Christ dies on the tree of life.

Help me out with this.

Old covenant is tree of kge, New covenant is tree of life?

I have an idea but.....
Eve stole from the tree. First fruit Jesus was nailed back to the 'same tree'.
That may sound good at first but it would rather picture Jesus on the Tree of life instead the other tree basicly being the tree of death.
Plus I have reasons to believe the tree of life was an almond tree and the other tree was a fig tree.

Although I admit I see problems in my thoughts I still believe it's about the fruit being put back on the tree. Damage undone. :dontknow:

The budding staff of Aaron was an almond branch.

When he went into the Tabernacle of the Covenant the next day, he found that Aaron's staff, representing the tribe of Levi, had sprouted, budded, blossomed, and produced ripe almonds!

--Num 17:8





"Jeremiah's vision of the rod of an almond tree -- found in Jeremiah 1:11-12 -- and YEHOVAH God's promise to watch over His Word (to perform the act of redemption) was fulfilled at the crucifixion. In this way, the Tree of Life, the source of the almond rod, is both literally and symbolically represented in the redemption of all humankind. Through it, YEHOVAH God brought redemption first to the Israelites and then, ultimately, to all humankind through the Messiah -- the Fruit of the Tree of Life who gives eternal life to all who trust in him and YEHOVAH God the Father!"

[Molly]

So that means we move from fig tree=tkge=Israel=the Law=covenant with death
to the almond tree=tree of life=Aaron's budding rod=the Levites=the Priesthood=new covenant.


19And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

20And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

--Mat 21

[jabcat]

You guys are over my head, but carry on!  It's good!

In some ways, I really am a simple man. 

And that's all I've got to say about thayat.

[WhiteWings]

So that means we move from fig tree=tkge=Israel=the Law=covenant with death
to the almond tree=tree of life=Aaron's budding rod=the Levites=the Priesthood=new covenant.

Not sure I agree....

Fig = law (BTW the priest quarter were outside the temple in the "house of unripe figs)
Almond = Priest.
Olive = Jesus. (yeah I know He was also a priest...)

Mount of olives likely only had olive trees. No guarantee there wasn't an almond tree... But I think Jesus was nailed to an olive tree (are the big enough?)


Symbolicly the crucifixion scene formed  a menorah.
3 people nailed to the same tree makes 6 arms just like the Menorah. In teh center the 7th arm being the tree itself :dontknow:

[Molly]

The Almond Tree, in Hebrew "Light"


The almond tree is the first tree to sprout and the last one to lose its leaves. Its flowers symbolize the cups that crown the seven branches of the Jewish candelabra (Ex. 25:33-36; 37:19-20). In the biblical books, the almond tree is mentioned several times (e.g., Gen. 30:37-39; 43:11; Qo.12.1-5). The prophet, Jeremiah, mentions it in a vision: The word of Yahweh was addressed to me asking, "Jeremiah, what to you see?" "I see a branch of the watchful tree," I answered. Then Yahweh said, "Well seen! I too watch over My Word to see it fulfilled" (Jer. 1:11-12). In this text there is a word game between the Hebrew words shaqed, almond tree, and shoqed, I watch. Also, the image of the almond tree, the first tree to bloom, reminds us of the watchful eye of God, that watches over His word to set it to practice. God is the almond tree of Israel.

http://198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/mag/HolyLnA2.html

[Molly]

Not sure I agree....

well you get the idea, though.  All of these things stand for something else. We just have to figure out what. lol

Fig = law (BTW the priest quarter were outside the temple in the "house of unripe figs)

The withered fig tree=he's doing away with the Levite priesthood.  It will never produce fruit again.  From now on, the saints pray directly to God, through Jesus.

[WhiteWings]

God is the almond tree of Israel.

I'm not saying the article is wrong but the Menorah seems to be more about the Messiah.
Besides that Jesus is the Light He's the centre light of the Menorah. The branch of Jesse.

The middle bowl (lamp) is called: Ner Elohim - The Lamp of God
as well as Shamash - The Servant Lamp
The middle bowl or lamp is thus a symbol of the Messiah.
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.

[WhiteWings]

The withered fig tree=he's doing away with the Levite priesthood.

I think it has another meaning. The tree of knowledge was likely a fig tree. So He in a way killed the fruits of death.

It will never produce fruit again.  From now on, the saints pray directly to God, through Jesus.

I think that's true. See my Family of Jesus'posts...

[Molly]

The Almond Tree, in Hebrew "Light"

The Menorah is light too.

God is the almond tree of Israel.

I'm not saying the article is wrong but the Menorah seems to be more about the Messiah.
Besides that Jesus is the Light He's the centre light of the Menorah. The branch of Jesse.


Seems we getting off-topic again.

Jesus is God.  The LORD is my shepherd...I am the good shepherd...

The Jews know everything about Jesus.  If only they knew they know...

[WhiteWings]

Hummm....  no comment  :Whistle:

[Molly]

19And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

20This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

21Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.

22Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.

--John 19

The hidden meaning in Pilate's inscription. I've got to give you a little bit of background here. We usually think that there's only one inscription over Christ at the Crucifixion. But actually, he showed us that there are two. The first three Gospels talk about a superscription, and it's translated "inscription," and the word "charge" is used. So that's a very reasonable thing. They said, "This guy's a murderer," and they tack it up over his head, to tell everybody why he's in trouble. And that's what it says in the first three Gospels. But in John, it changes. It's not that. And the one that's listed in John is written by Pilate. It doesn't say in any of the other ones that they were written by Pilate, but this one was written by Pilate, and it caused a very great stir among the Jewish leaders. They went to Pilate to demand that he take it down; change it! And he said, "Hey, buzz off. I wrote what I wrote. Get out of here."

John 19:20 states that Pilate's inscription was written in three languages, Hebrew, Latin and Greek. Because a great majority of the Jewish people were in Jerusalem for the Passover, and Yeshua was crucified in a public place, thousands must have read this inscription. The original Greek of Pilate's inscription, as recorded in John 19:19, is Iesous O Nazaraios O Basileus Ton Ioudaion. Because the Greek language is the language in which the New Testament was preserved, we have to construct the Hebrew and Latin from the Greek. And we can do that pretty easily. We must also arrive at an accurate English translation from the Greek. Now, ultimately, understanding the Hebrew is going to be the key to unlocking the hidden meaning in the inscription. This is really neat stuff, this codifying that we're going to talk about.

So he takes the five Greek words in the inscription and details them out here. The name Jesus, Iesous, is the English transliteration of the Greek. The English transliteration of the Hebrew name is Yeshua. (And that means "salvation," by the way.) The second word in Greek, Nazaraios – and that's another thing about these inscriptions – the first three inscriptions say nothing about Nazareth. They all talk about the King of the Jews. Jesus, the King of the Jews. This is Jesus, the King of the Jews. They don't ever say anything about Nazareth. And that's another detail that says that there were two, because John says Nazarene. Now, at least one other Gospel would say Nazarene. Sometimes things get left out in the repeated stories.

So let's get on with Nazarene. Nazarene, in some English translations, instead of Nazareth, they say Nazarene. But the Greek word is Nazarene. The actual Hebrew word transliterated into English is Hanazri. Did you notice the "Nazri," Nazri, that's the Nazarene. And the "Ha" is a prefix in Hebrew that says "the." So Hanazri isn't Hanazri, it's "the Nazarene." The third original Hebrew word translated "king" seems to be the source of the great upset among the Jewish leaders. The current Hebrew text translates the Greek word as "Melech." However, it seems unlikely that this form of the Hebrew word created a problem, since the religious leaders themselves used it to mock Yeshua. They said, "He said He was the King of the Jews," and they used "Melech" for the word "king." So that wasn't what they had a problem with. And they didn't have any problem with Yeshua, that was His name, and where He came from, Nazareth, or that he was a Nazarene, dedicated to God; they didn't argue with that. And they called Him themselves, the King of the Jews, right?

So the key is what form of the Hebrew word "Melech" is used for king. The correct usage of the Greek letter omicron – remember, there are two of those – provides the clue. Generally, the omicron translates as "the." However, there are other possible translations, depending on the context. The omicron appears twice in the Greek inscription. Between "Yeshua" and "Nazarene" – it says "Yeshua O Nazarene," or "the Nazarene," or maybe something different, and then between "Nazarene" and "king." "Nazarene, the King of the Jews." Note the differences in how the omicron is translated into the English translations above in the King James and the NIV. The first omicron is translated "of," as in "Jesus of Nazareth." The second omicron is translated "the." "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews." Judging by the reaction of the Jewish leaders, the religious leaders, it seems that the translation of the second omicron is "and," resulting in the following English translation of the inscription. "Jesus the Nazarene and King of the Jews." See, this was His title; that wasn't the charge against Him; that was the title. And we'll see that in just a minute.

Given that the correct translation of the omicron before the word "king" is "and," the correct form of the Hebrew word for "king," "Melech," is "Vemelech." See, there's another prefix going on there. The "v-e" says "and." "H-a" says "the," "v-e" means "and," so they say "Vemelech," meaning "and king." Well, what's the big deal? Jesus the Nazarene and King of the Jews, okay. Yeshua, Hanazri Vemelech HaYehudim. Well, it is a big difference! This is the detail we're getting to here. This apparently minor change in both the English and the Hebrew will in fact have profound implications in the meaning of the inscription. The last two Greek words in the inscription are translated into English as "of the Jews," "ton Ioudaion." In Hebrew, it's only one word. See, this inscription in Hebrew only has four words in it, because you don't have to put "of the" and everything and add words to it; you just put "ve" on there, or "and" or whatever. In the Hebrew, the one word which transliterates into English as HaYehudim. See, Yehudim is pretty obviously Jewish, the Jews, Yehudim, Yehuda and all that, from the tribe of Judah, and we put the "ha" in front of it, it says "the" Yehudim, the Jews. The "im" is plural. So, big deal, huh? Yeah, it is.

In order to ascertain the hidden meaning of the inscription, it's essential to comprehend certain unique aspects of Hebrew writing. In Hebrew studies, speaking or writing the first and last words of some written text implies the entire text. A good example of this is Yeshua's words on the tree. He spoke the first and last words of Psalm 22, which referred to the entire text of Psalm 22. And, in so doing, He indicated that He was the fulfillment of its prophetic picture.

Now in the same manner, the Jewish scribes of that day used a method of interpretation whereby the first letters of a sequence of words were combined in order to discern further meanings. This is just working with an acronym, okay? Straight Talk About God is STAG. That's easy. And if you want to emphasize that, you make the letters big, or in bold type. This was particularly true if the first letters of the words were enlarged for emphasis. The Roman Catholic church borrowed this idea when they placed the four letters, INRI, on the crucifix. These are the first letters of the four words that make up the inscription in Latin. These four words were in Latin also. There's six or seven in English, but there's only four in Latin. And the four in Latin are Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum. INRI. Iesus – that's the "I," Nazarenus, "N," Rex, "R," Iudaeorum starts with an "I," so you've got those four letters. Now try to get that image in your mind. There's four words there, and the first letter of each word is twice the size and in bold type, so it really stands out, and they tend to meld right together that way.

But the hidden meaning in Greek or Latin is entirely lost unless we go back to the original Hebrew. The religious leaders of the day would certainly have related to their own God-given language. And herein lies the cause of their alarm. Again, there's four words in Hebrew, and they say, as we said before, Yeshua Hanazri Vemelech HaYehudim. But before this mystery can be revealed, we must remember that Hebrew is read from right to left. So when we see it on the page, it's backwards. So we get the wrong first letter for the word if we don't understand that. So, as I said, the transliteration into English is Yeshua -- that means salvation -- and Hanazri, as a matter of fact, means to guard, keep, protect. And king is next, Vemelech, and Jews. Yeshua Hanazri Vemelech HaYehudim. The first four letters are yod, hay, vav, hay, YHVH. Were you ahead of me on that one? YHVH? That's the Tetragrammaton. That's none other than the ineffable name of God. And it was considered too awesome back in those times and too sacred to even speak it. They just took the vowel points and put them in different places so it came out and sounded like a different word. But they wouldn't even say the word, which is their problem.

http://asis.com/users/stag/starchiv/transcriptions/AlmondRod3.html


What upset the Jews was that Jesus has YHVH written over his head on the cross, written by Pilate so they cannot remove it.

[Molly]

The Rod of an Almond Tree in God's Master Plan by Peter Michas

From Amazon.com:

Scripture records the existence of a miraculous rod that budded, producing blossoms and ripe almonds (Numbers 17:8). This same rod was used by Moses to part the Red Sea and by David in battle against Goliath. Hebraic sources link this miraculous rod to the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden! From the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden to the Crucifixion Tree on the Mount of Olives, the remarkable history of this miraculous almond rod is traced. Restoring Scripture to its Hebraic roots is the key to unlocking a deeper dimension and reveals ...
Jerusalem site of the original Garden of Eden Aaron's Rod a branch from Tree of Life The Biblical Holy Days God's prophetic timetable The Ineffable Name of God encoded in Pilates inscription The true timetable and location of the crucifixion and resurrection

A powerful masterpiece of revelation for the truth seeker believer or skeptic. Separates Biblical Truth from Religious Tradition.

[micah7:9]

Ok, so what is the name of god?
I dont know it sounds to me like this person is saying there was some kind of conspiracy  going on with Pilate and the Jews in the writing of the paper[message],
"In order to ascertain the hidden meaning of the inscription,...."

The principal point is that Jesus(Savior) was crucified and it was implicated that He was the king of the Jews, which made the Jews really upset and as far as I know it didnt bother the Romans one bit.
I am not making light of what you posted but of what significance is it? Are we to see some hidden mystery to Jesus's crucifiction, other than how He died or the purpose of His sacrifice? Im only asking. Paul said the simplicity.

2Co 11:3  and I fear, lest, as the serpent did beguile Eve in his subtilty, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in the Christ;

I must ask as I read your post as I was making mine, "The Ineffable Name of God encoded in Pilates inscription..." Do they know the " Ineffable Name of God?" Peace and Love Through Jesus the Savior of the world

[WhiteWings]

Ok, so what is the name of god?
I dont know it sounds to me like this person is saying there was some kind of conspiracy  going on with Pilate and the Jews in the writing of the paper[message],
"In order to ascertain the hidden meaning of the inscription,...."

No conspiracy. Romans did put the reason for crucifixion on a sign that all could read. Pilate convicted Jesus because according to the scribes He claimed to be king of the Jews. And in the Roman mind that was treason because the Roma emperor was king of the Jews.


INRI = YHVH

When Jesus was crucified, Pilate wrote the sign that was nailed to the cross. The particular wording he chose displeased the Jewish leadership and they asked him to change it. He refused. There are some interesting aspects to this incident that are not apparent in our English translations.
(John  19:19-22)

But why?
Latin: Iesus Nazareus Rex Iudaiorum   ==> Jesus King of the Jews

Hebrew:

(http://xwalk.ca/yhwh.gif)
   H            W            H            Y

Reading from right to left YHWH

[micah7:9]

Okay. but what has this to do with the post Died in my stead? And does anyone know the name of God? Even with the letters? If so please inform me.
I know there are many mysterys within the Word of God, but it seems people are always, probably a bad word to use, creating  them, like Lincoln, and Kennedy's assasinations. I dont know. i aint tryin to cause no trouble, just saying.

[Molly]

Okay. but what has this to do with the post Died in my stead? And does anyone know the name of God? Even with the letters? If so please inform me.
I know there are many mysterys within the Word of God, but it seems people are always, probably a bad word to use, creating  them, like Lincoln, and Kennedy's assasinations. I dont know. i aint tryin to cause no trouble, just saying.

YHVH was the name given by God to Moses to use as a memorial.  I AM THAT I AM.

If that name ended up over the head of Jesus on the cross, I find that interesting.  The cross is where he died in our stead which is what gives the whole thing relevance to this thread.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[Molly]

ww, I've been thinking more about this almond tree.  I've read that the olive and almond trees were often planted in the same place, so it could be on the mount of olives.  It's interesting that both the olive and almond trees are also represented together in the menorah [candlestick].  The almond flower is the shape used for the cup that holds the oil.  We know that the olive tree represents Israel.  But, the almond tree is clearly Aaron's rod that budded, representing the [Melchizedek] priesthood and the tree of life--the Christians.

Now what has come to mind, is that the almond tree represents the Christians, the new covenant, and the cross.  It is present within the ark of the covenant [Aaron's rod], along with the manna fed to the Israelites in the desert and the stone tablets [representing the law].

So with the almond and olive trees, we see Jew and Gentile [Christian] brought together--two sticks held in one hand.


Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
--Eze 37:19

[micah7:9]

Okay. but what has this to do with the post Died in my stead? And does anyone know the name of God? Even with the letters? If so please inform me.
I know there are many mysterys within the Word of God, but it seems people are always, probably a bad word to use, creating  them, like Lincoln, and Kennedy's assasinations. I dont know. i aint tryin to cause no trouble, just saying.

YHVH was the name given by God to Moses to use as a memorial.  I AM THAT I AM.

If that name ended up over the head of Jesus on the cross, I find that interesting.  The cross is where he died in our stead which is what gives the whole thing relevance to this thread.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Where does one find that Jesus died in our stead? Also should He have died in our stead and He was a subsitute, why is not that word found[even its meaning] in the writing of the Gospels and Paul. Or for that matter why is it not made clear that Jesus died "instead" of us?

YHVH are letters, I know they are of great importance, but we have not even scraped the surface of what has been revealed to us as individuals and yet we have some who will go off a wondering about somethings that,well  right now have small importance. There are many minds out there before us and now who reason and think with the natural mind, and find things that feed the natural mind of men and we, as human beings, just follow along and we lose track of studying and seeking the truth out of what has been given us. You all say we are a body of many members and that we all have a part, well I suggest we stay on that ONE thing the Lord has given us, and seek its true understanding and meaning so that we can be used to proclaim it. :2c:

[WhiteWings]

ww, I've been thinking more about this almond tree.  I've read that the olive and almond trees were often planted in the same place, so it could be on the mount of olives.

Could be true. I really don't know. Maybe the name mount of olives is just a bit misleading? Maybe the whole mountain was covered with olive trees and the top with almond trees?
An almond tree seems to be more right because it's the Menorah and according to the Jews the tree of life. You almond staff reference hint in that way too.
OTOH olive oil is the representation of the (outpouring of the) HS.


An almond tree
Jesus was crucified on a green tree. That certainly means a living tree. But perhaps also a tree that already had leaves on it?
Almond a olive both flower during passover.
^ACVIsa 11
1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse. And a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.

When olive trees a are cut down very often a new tree grows from the old roots. Not really prrof of anything ofcourse.
(http://www.cyprusvillagelink.com/photos/Almond%20Tree%20Limnati.JPG)
Almond tree

(http://www.inkart.com/images/lineart/Olive_Tree.jpg)
Olive tree

It's interesting that both the olive and almond trees are also represented together in the menorah [candlestick].

It seems that nobody really know what the Menorah exactly looked like.
I think the menorah was only almond. The oil was from the olive.


 

The almond flower is the shape used for the cup that holds the oil.  We know that the olive tree represents Israel.  But, the almond tree is clearly Aaron's rod that budded, representing the [Melchizedek] priesthood and the tree of life--the Christians.

I'm thinking again about "take up your cross". If that means staff I wonder if Jesus also had an almond staff....

[WhiteWings]

Okay. but what has this to do with the post Died in my stead? And does anyone know the name of God? Even with the letters? If so please inform me.
I know there are many mysterys within the Word of God, but it seems people are always, probably a bad word to use, creating  them, like Lincoln, and Kennedy's assasinations. I dont know. i aint tryin to cause no trouble, just saying.

YHVH was the name given by God to Moses to use as a memorial.  I AM THAT I AM.

If that name ended up over the head of Jesus on the cross, I find that interesting.  The cross is where he died in our stead which is what gives the whole thing relevance to this thread.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Where does one find that Jesus died in our stead? Also should He have died in our stead and He was a subsitute, why is not that word found[even its meaning] in the writing of the Gospels and Paul. Or for that matter why is it not made clear that Jesus died "instead" of us?

Because the wages of sin is death and Jesus payed teh wages to the last cent....?

YHVH are letters, I know they are of great importance, but we have not even scraped the surface of what has been revealed to us as individuals and yet we have some who will go off a wondering about somethings that,well  right now have small importance.

Micah when someone is on a journey it's not bad to enjoy the scenery.

There are many minds out there before us and now who reason and think with the natural mind, and find things that feed the natural mind of men and we, as human beings, just follow along and we lose track of studying and seeking the truth out of what has been given us.

How can that natural mind find truth? Every pastor seem to have his own truth. So....? I think the only way to prove the truth that is found really is the truth is by verifying it against all those seemingly useless facts.

[micah7:9]

Okay. but what has this to do with the post Died in my stead? And does anyone know the name of God? Even with the letters? If so please inform me.
I know there are many mysterys within the Word of God, but it seems people are always, probably a bad word to use, creating  them, like Lincoln, and Kennedy's assasinations. I dont know. i aint tryin to cause no trouble, just saying.

YHVH was the name given by God to Moses to use as a memorial.  I AM THAT I AM.

If that name ended up over the head of Jesus on the cross, I find that interesting.  The cross is where he died in our stead which is what gives the whole thing relevance to this thread.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Where does one find that Jesus died in our stead? Also should He have died in our stead and He was a subsitute, why is not that word found[even its meaning] in the writing of the Gospels and Paul. Or for that matter why is it not made clear that Jesus died "instead" of us?

Because the wages of sin is death and Jesus payed teh wages to the last cent....?

YHVH are letters, I know they are of great importance, but we have not even scraped the surface of what has been revealed to us as individuals and yet we have some who will go off a wondering about somethings that,well  right now have small importance.

Micah when someone is on a journey it's not bad to enjoy the scenery.

There are many minds out there before us and now who reason and think with the natural mind, and find things that feed the natural mind of men and we, as human beings, just follow along and we lose track of studying and seeking the truth out of what has been given us.

How can that natural mind find truth? Every pastor seem to have his own truth. So....? I think the only way to prove the truth that is found really is the truth is by verifying it against all those seemingly useless facts.

You said it.....the wages of sin is death. Thats our end. Have we stopped dying because Jesus died on a tree? NO.

I say spending time in the scenery is a waste of our time.

But all your facts are brought forth my men and woman who get payed to find things that will give them pubplicity, money and put them in the front row. The natural mind is useless when studying the Word of God. In fact it causes confusion. I do not live by the "fact" that Jesus died for the sins of the world, I live by the knowledge and faith that He loved us to the point that He would lay down His life for mankind, that He would shed His blood for His creation.

[WhiteWings]

It seems Adam got an almond rod from the Tree of Life. That rod was passed on though the generations until David planted it near the spot the original Tree of Life was. If that spot was Mount of Olives as some say it's not unimagible Jesus was crucified on the "same" almond tree that was in Eden.

"According to the Haggadah (narrative of the Talmud), the rod, with blossoms and fruit, was created at the twilight between the sixth day and the Sabbath of Creation....At the time of Adam's expulsion from the Garden, God gave the rod to Adam.(p. 115) ... which was engraved with the Ineffable Name of God (YHVH) (p. 119)..."
....
"According to rabbinical commentary and stories passed from generation, the rod transferred from Adam successively down the line to Enoch, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses an David.
....
"Undoubtedly, David's victory was proof of God's miraculous intervention. The rod, engraved with the Ineffable Name, bore witness to the authority which this miracle of redemption had been performed....The authors believe David planted the rod. The authors believe that the serpent had never been removed from the rod and, therefore must have remained attached to the almond tree as it grew. Subsequently, the serpent was removed and destroyed, but the almond tree was left intact. (pp. 128, 133)
....
"When Yeshua returns, He will set up His Throne in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 43:7). At this time, it is thought that the prophet Elijah will return the rod - a branch from the Tree of Life - to the Messiah...The Messiah will seat Himself on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies on Mount Moriah. He will replace the Ark that had symbolized Him, in the place where God had first fellowshipped with Adam and Eve, in the same place the Divine Presence dwelt among His People! Just as a branch from the Tree of Life was kept before the Ark, He will set the almond rod before Himself on the Throne of God, where the Tree of Life had grown in the Garden of Eden!" (p. 135)
More: http://watch.pair.com/rat2.html

[WhiteWings]

You said it.....the wages of sin is death. Thats our end. Have we stopped dying because Jesus died on a tree? NO.

No. I think the point isn't about dying or not. The point is staying dead or being resurrected.
The wages of sin is death. Nothing more nothing less. Not even judgement imo. But because of Jesus that changed. People die according to their wages. But get ressurected.
Simply put: imo it's about how long someone is dead. For ever? Or a limited time?

I say spending time in the scenery is a waste of our time.

I think the scenery is of great importance for understanding and as a defence against false teachings. Scenery is part of patterns.  :2c:

But all your facts are brought forth my men and woman who get payed to find things that will give them pubplicity, money and put them in the front row.

Give me one fact that's not from man. You can't. The whole Bible is interpretation. The scenery I'm talking about is also in the Bible. I think scenery like THIS is very important. I know you don't agree with that. That fine with me :winkgrin: I don't understand a lot of the scenery but if I only learned one thing during my time here, it's that there is no/very little scenery in the Bible. The HS found it important enough to add. Also keep in mind that the Bible written in a sort of shorthand because it was extremely time consuming to write. Not to mention costly. Moses wasn't typing at 30 words a minute on a laptop. That's another reason I think all scenery is left out.
:2c:

The natural mind is useless when studying the Word of God. In fact it causes confusion. I do not live by the "fact" that Jesus died for the sins of the world, I live by the knowledge and faith that He loved us to the point that He would lay down His life for mankind, that He would shed His blood for His creation.

Don't you see the contradiction Micah? First you say your natural mind is not able to study and it's not a fact jesus died for the sins of the world. Then you claim Jesus loved mankind. How do you know that? Didn't you read that with you natural eyes and mind? Why declare love a fact and the other part a possibility?

For me it's about deduction and probabilities. I'm aware I'm likely alone in that approach  :icon_jokercolor:

[redhotmagma]

Lev 17:11  for the life of every living thing 1  is in the blood. 2  So I myself have assigned it to you 3  on the altar to make atonement for your lives, for the blood makes atonement by means of the life.

1John 2:2   
and he himself is the atoning sacrifice 1  for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world. 2

Micah what does the atonement mean to you?