Died In My Stead?

[thinktank]

lol, and I've yet to call anyone, bitter!

That's because we are all joyous here  :bigGrin:

[Molly]

What Jesus did for us is all about LIFE, not death.



8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

--Rom 5



"atonement"

G2643
καταλλαγή
katallagē
kat-al-lag-ay'
From G2644; exchange (figuratively adjustment), that is, restoration to (the divine) favor: - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).

[WhiteWings]

Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"

The woman had already disobeyed when she saw  Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise...

Also the way it reads the woman never received the order, so if that is true she had no reason to ask.

Sounds she was very aware of the order...

^ACVGenesis 3
2 And the woman said to the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat,
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

[Beloved Servant]

lol, and I've yet to call anyone, bitter!

That's because we are all joyous here  :bigGrin:

lol, but the bitter was in — your mouth.

[Molly]

I have been thinking more about what ww said about stauros being any upright piece of wood, maybe even a staff.

I thought first about the staff of Moses, which when laid down became a snake but when lifted up was able to part seas.

Then, also, about Aaron's rod that budded, the rod that proved the mantel of high priest was laid on Aaron by God.

Again, I thought about Adam the seed bearer who died and Christ the seed that produces fruit.  And, again, the cross which symbolizes the death of Christ and the bringer of life to all humanity, and power to God's nation of priests.  This is Aaron's rod that budded,

A dead stick becomes alive and produces fruit.  The message of the cross is LIFE, not death.


For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
--1 Cor 1:18



http://justifiedbychristalone.com/2010/07/26/alfred-chompff-aarons-rod-that-budded/

[Beloved Servant]

It is both.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,    but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
                                                                            (the death)                                                                  (the Life)         

[Molly]

The atheists told me today to stop praying.  It is foolishness to those who are perishing.

I need help holding the staff up--some support under my arms.
please.  :icon_king:


8 While the people of Israel were still at Rephidim, the warriors of Amalek attacked them. 9 Moses commanded Joshua, "Choose some men to go out and fight the army of Amalek for us. Tomorrow, I will stand at the top of the hill, holding the staff of God in my hand."

10 So Joshua did what Moses had commanded and fought the army of Amalek. Meanwhile, Moses, Aaron, and Hur climbed to the top of a nearby hill. 11 As long as Moses held up the staff in his hand, the Israelites had the advantage. But whenever he dropped his hand, the Amalekites gained the advantage. 12 Moses' arms soon became so tired he could no longer hold them up. So Aaron and Hur found a stone for him to sit on. Then they stood on each side of Moses, holding up his hands. So his hands held steady until sunset. 13 As a result, Joshua overwhelmed the army of Amalek in battle.

--Exodus 17

[thinktank]

lol, and I've yet to call anyone, bitter!

That's because we are all joyous here  :bigGrin:

lol, but the bitter was in — your mouth.

It was your reflection

[sheila]

ARISE LORD,LIFT UP YOUR HAND O'GOD  DO NOT FORGET THE HELPLESS[THOSE WITHOUT HELPER SPIRIT/FAITH]

WHY DOES THE WICKED MAN REVILE GOD! WHY DOES HE SAY TO HIMSELF'HE WON'T CALL ME TO ACCOUNT?

  BUT YOU,O'GOD DO SEE TROUBLE AND GREIF,YOU CONSIDER IT TO TAKE IT IN HAND

  THE VICTIM COMMITS HIMSELF TO YOU,YOU ARE THE HELPER OF THE FATHERLESS[WITHOUT FAITH]

   BREAK THE ARM OF THE WICKED AND EVIL MAN

   CALL HIM TO ACCOUNT FOR HIS WICKEDNESS...THAT WOULD NOT BE FOUND OUT   PSALMS 10

[jabcat]

The atheists told me today to stop praying.  It is foolishness to those who are perishing.

I need help holding the staff up--some support under my arms.
please.  :icon_king:

will pray

[Beloved Servant]

lol, and I've yet to call anyone, bitter!

That's because we are all joyous here  :bigGrin:

lol, but the bitter was in — your mouth.

It was your reflection

Ah! Amen!
Not my appearance but:
my reflection of what?
YOU!

[micah7:9]

Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"

The woman had already disobeyed when she saw  Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise...

Also the way it reads the woman never received the order, so if that is true she had no reason to ask.

Sounds she was very aware of the order...

^ACVGenesis 3
2 And the woman said to the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat,
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

You my friend are going into a debatable area, that I will not go into at this time. But your point is one I find very interesting. And for some other time.

[Molly]

Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"

The woman had already disobeyed when she saw  Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise...

Also the way it reads the woman never received the order, so if that is true she had no reason to ask.

Sounds she was very aware of the order...

^ACVGenesis 3
2 And the woman said to the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat,
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

You my friend are going into a debatable area, that I will not go into at this time. But your point is one I find very interesting. And for some other time.

ww, there's a clue in that verse.    Adam was told not to eat from the tree, but Eve adds that she cannot touch it either.

That puts Eve on par with the israelites at Sinai who were not allowed to touch the mountain.  Adam, himself, is a type of high priest, so he can touch the tree but not eat of it.  Interesting.

[micah7:9]

And still Jesus did not die instead of us.  Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Now either the Lord God lied or the serpent lied. Should Jesus have died "instead" of us, then why is it that mankind must still die?

[jabcat]

OK, this gets into my suggestion that we clarify terms.

On this count, yes, good point.

Now, what about spiritual death?  And is that the same as the consequences of sin, the legal debt Jesus paid by His death, or something different still?  :handshake:

[jabcat]

I know you think a lot already, but I'm makin' you think, brother.   :smile:

I'm not saying I fully understand all the different "types of death", but I don't think they're all the same, and I wonder if we incorrectly use them interchangeably sometimes - such as with the song in question? 

Blessings.

[micah7:9]

Not to be a thorn under the saddle, I know that we, today in our bible discussions speak a lot of "spiritual death," but I can find nowhere in the Bible where any such type of death is discussed  or even mentioned. I know that we, today work it into our speech, but that is no matter.

Die H4191 mûth A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: -  X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

Die G5053  teleutaō  to finish life (by implication of G979), that is, expire (demise): - be dead, decease, die.

[micah7:9]

Again, should Jesus have died in stead of mankind, why does man still have to die?

[jabcat]

That's not being a thorn in the saddle, it's a good clarifying point.

Which brings me to this.  You say, "again, why does man have to die"?  Well, again, there seems to be more than one kind of death.   IMO, these scriptures must be about something besides physical death.  I think most do call it spiritual death.  Do you know another, better name for it?


But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me; and allow the dead to bury their own dead." (Matthew 8:22) - (How can physically dead people bury anyone?)

"'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (Matthew 22:32)

"But we had to be merry and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found." (Luke 15:32) - (What kind of dead was the prodigal son until he repented?  He wasn't literally dead.)

And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10)

And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, (Colossians 2:13)

I protest, brethren, by the boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (1 Corinthians 15:31)  Paul wasn't literally dying daily. 

[micah7:9]

I am know way attempting to imply that there is no spiritual death, I know there is, yet it is not a point that is relative in what the Word of God says or Jesus, Matthew,Mark, Luke, Paul and Peter would have made it something for us to speak about.
I know from the Word and the enlightening of the Holy Spirit that there is a spiritual death and that I must die daily to the wiles and wills of the flesh. But in Genesis 2 the Lord God said dying you will die, and Jesus went to the Cross to die the physical death of the flesh, for mankinds sin, as the unblemished Lamb, He did not phyisically die so that we might die a spiritual death.

[WhiteWings]

Again, should Jesus have died in stead of mankind, why does man still have to die?

After death man in resurrected. Without Jesus they wouldn't. So eternal death is gone.

[micah7:9]

2Co 1:9 But we have the rescript of death in ourselves, that we may be having no confidence in ourselves, but in God, Who rouses the dead,

[WhiteWings]

Don't get me wrong Micah, I'm not ignoring that verse.
Basically I'm claiming that without Jesus' sacrifice that verse would not be in the Bible.

[WhiteWings]

Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"

The woman had already disobeyed when she saw  Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise...

Also the way it reads the woman never received the order, so if that is true she had no reason to ask.

Sounds she was very aware of the order...

^ACVGenesis 3
2 And the woman said to the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat,
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

You my friend are going into a debatable area, that I will not go into at this time. But your point is one I find very interesting. And for some other time.

ww, there's a clue in that verse.    Adam was told not to eat from the tree, but Eve adds that she cannot touch it either.

That puts Eve on par with the israelites at Sinai who were not allowed to touch the mountain.  Adam, himself, is a type of high priest, so he can touch the tree but not eat of it.  Interesting.

Before He ascended Jesus didn't allowed to be touched. (after resurrection)

[Molly]

First of all, out of 13 translations, only one translation says 'dying thou shalt die.'  All the rest say,  [thou] shall surely [or certainly] die.  Using the verb twice there is for emphasis, according to 12 translations.  So clearly that is the translation I favor.  I do not believe Adam was already dying at the time God told him not to touch the tree.  As long as Adam was allowed to stay in the garden he was immortal because he had unimpeded access to the tree of life.

Secondly, first Micah says there is no spiritual death in the Bible, then he says there is a spiritual death but it is not relevant.  Which is it Micah? Is there a spiritual death or not?

Third, Adam does die spiritually after he eats from the tree [as does Jesus on the cross], years before he dies physically.  The fact that Adam is kicked out of the garden proves he has died spiritually.

Fourth, Jesus says that those who believe in him will never die.  Since, in this age we know we are still dying physically, he must have been referring to dying spiritually.

Paul talks about himself as being dead while he is still alive.  Therefore, Paul is acknowledging spiritual death, because we know Paul is still walking and talking when he refers to himself as 'dead.'

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

--Rom 7