Died In My Stead?

[Molly]

"to die in my stead"


That is a lie from the bowels of satan.
While He did die for us in was BY NO MEANS INSTEAD OF US.
We must go to the cross, pick it up and follow Him.
He is the pattern.

well I disagree.  But that's ok.

He took on our sin and gave us his righteousness.

[jabcat]

He took on our sin and gave us his righteousness.

I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly.  If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.  Now on topic;  just as, IMO, the main point of the prodigal son is about the Father - the sons, though important, are results of the Father's action.   :2c:

[micah7:9]

He took on our sin and gave us his righteousness.

I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly.  If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.  Now on topic;  just as, IMO, the main point of the prodigal son is about the Father - the sons, though important, are results of the Father's action.   :2c:

"the main point of the prodigal son is about the Father - the sons, though important, are results of the Father's action.   :2c:"

:thumbsup:

[Beloved Servant]

I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly.  If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.

Well that's just stating the obvious but the fact remains that He says if any of you wants to be my follower, pick up your cross and follow me.

[jabcat]

I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly.  If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.

Well that's just stating the obvious but the fact remains that He says if any of you wants to be my follower, pick up your cross and follow me.

Some things actually don't seem obvious to all.  OK, so you indicate you get that.  However, as I understand, taking up our cross is not how we're saved.  That would be works based.  We're saved by His death and resurrection, and His giving us faith to trust in that and in Him.  It's the new birth, being born again.  In that regard, I'll contend He did take our place.   If you don't see it that way, OK, but I believe there is that other side to it.  You nor I either one are able to decide to take up our cross and by that somehow save ourselves.  Also, I don't believe He was "just" our pattern.  In the main regard, He was our Substitute.  Our sacrifice.

[jabcat]

Reconciling the verses and precepts;

taking up our cross, saved by grace through faith.

I do believe we will deny ourselves and live a life "set apart", i.e., take up our cross.  I don't believe though that's by our own effort, or is how we're saved.  I believe it's a result of the Holy Spirit working through the believer after his/her moment of salvation.  Sanctification, and it's ongoing.  Paul said we're saved by grace, not works.

IMO, a thing to consider is, when Jesus said what He did about taking up our cross, He was talking to a young man and a people who were still under the Old Covenant, pre-cross, pre age of grace -  pre-sacrifice.  It was a transitional period.  He had come to His people, Israel.  He was physically present, teaching them about coming to know Him personally/intimately, i.e., entering the kingdom, and what they needed to do to do that.

It's important for our learning, but after the cross and resurrection, Paul gave us, the nations, a later word.   :2c:

[Beloved Servant]

There is absolutely no one but God's Christ who was worthy to hang on the cross of Calvary. Period.

Your missing the point, entirely.

There is 30 fold, 60 fold and 100 fold.

If you want to follow Him — you must go too.

There is one Way to the Holy of Holies, and that is your cross.

Not of your own works, lol, even the thought is ludicrous, lol — His grace will get you there.

[micah7:9]

I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly.  If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.

Well that's just stating the obvious but the fact remains that He says if any of you wants to be my follower, pick up your cross and follow me.

Some things actually don't seem obvious to all.  OK, so you indicate you get that.  However, as I understand, taking up our cross is not how we're saved.  That would be works based.  We're saved by His death and resurrection, and His giving us faith to trust in that and in Him.  It's the new birth, being born again.  In that regard, I'll contend He did take our place.   If you don't see it that way, OK, but I believe there is that other side to it.  You nor I either one are able to decide to take up our cross and by that somehow save ourselves.  Also, I don't believe He was "just" our pattern.  In the main regard, He was our Substitute.  Our sacrifice.

Should Jesus have died on the cross "instead" of us, then one has to ask why do we still have to die? Jesus died "for" us. For our sins, He was the Lamb without spot or blemish.

Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,

[Beloved Servant]

Amen.
He paved the Way.
Opened the doors.
Redeemed the flesh.
Wonder of wonders, pick up your cross old man and follow Me.

[jabcat]

There is absolutely no one but God's Christ who was worthy to hang on the cross of Calvary. Period.

Your missing the point, entirely.

There is 30 fold, 60 fold and 100 fold.

If you want to follow Him — you must go too.

There is one Way to the Holy of Holies, and that is your cross.

Not of your own works, lol, even the thought is ludicrous, lol — His grace will get you there.

K.

[jabcat]

I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly.  If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.

Well that's just stating the obvious but the fact remains that He says if any of you wants to be my follower, pick up your cross and follow me.

Some things actually don't seem obvious to all.  OK, so you indicate you get that.  However, as I understand, taking up our cross is not how we're saved.  That would be works based.  We're saved by His death and resurrection, and His giving us faith to trust in that and in Him.  It's the new birth, being born again.  In that regard, I'll contend He did take our place.   If you don't see it that way, OK, but I believe there is that other side to it.  You nor I either one are able to decide to take up our cross and by that somehow save ourselves.  Also, I don't believe He was "just" our pattern.  In the main regard, He was our Substitute.  Our sacrifice.

Should Jesus have died on the cross "instead" of us, then one has to ask why do we still have to die? Jesus died "for" us. For our sins, He was the Lamb without spot or blemish.

Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,

Thanks micah for at least discussing this in a pleasant manner, but I think I'll suggest we get back on topic.  :)  It's a good point though brother.

[Beloved Servant]

It just occurred to me that maybe you are unfamiliar with these Scriptures that should absolutely not be ignored.

Jesus said in Luke 9:23;
Then he said to them all: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Paul reiterates this in 1 Corinthians 15:31;
I die every day--I mean that, brothers--just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And continues with Galatians 2:20;
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

[jabcat]

Covered that here;

I do believe we will deny ourselves and live a life "set apart", i.e., take up our cross.  Sanctification, and it's ongoing.

What exactly was the "point missed entirely"?  You know, I have certainly missed points before, and will again.  But it's funny how those type of statements come back around, isn't it?

[Beloved Servant]

That's because the conversation degraded from Molly's first remark.
She disagreed that we too must go to the cross. (post 33)
Then you agreed with her. (post 35)

[micah7:9]

Yes and the old man is dead.
Gal 5:24  and those who are Christ's, the flesh did crucify with the affections, and the desires;

And continues with Galatians 2:20;
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We are dead, as Elwin Roach wrote, "Why seek ye the living amongest the dead?" the old man is dead, we die dayliy  as is said in Gen 2:17  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Rom 7:17  and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me,
Rom 7:18  for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find,
Rom 7:19  for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise.

[jabcat]

Look again.  I agreed with Molly saying "He took our sin and gave us His righteousness".  I still and will always agree with that.

[jabcat]

And as far as saying someone missed the point - it's very possible there's more than one point, or that the person speaking (typing) may be thinking something they're not fully expressing, or the two people see it differently and get something different out of it, or ...

I just think it would be desirable to discuss things pleasantly and in a friendly manner, and if not, then I'd rather not.

[Beloved Servant]

I agree with that too.

Her post, however, reads as though she is dismissing the words of Jesus telling us to pick up our cross and follow him.

I thought you were agreeing with her whole statement.

And while he did "take" the sins of the world, then why do people still sin?

See the mystery?

[Beloved Servant]

I just honor and reverence the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Beloved Servant]

lol, and I've yet to call anyone, bitter!

[jabcat]

Well, that's good that you honor the Lord, it really is.  I haven't called anyone bitter either, right?   However, it is very hard to really know where someone's coming from, what's in their heart, or what their motives are in this black and white format.  Although sometimes I really do have a smart mouth, and although He's really worked with me on curtailing it, and sometimes I must back-track and "fix" things, it's still likely I may come across as being snarky, insulting, making inuendo, etc. - and I imagine it's that way with others that post.  So whether intentional or not, it is very possible to come across as unpleasant or bitter.  I have personal experience.   :dontknow:

Now, as far as "the mystery";  this is an honest question.  Does it say somewhere specifically, regarding that particular passage or concept, that it's a mystery?  Because I understand it to mean that He took the consequences/result of our sin.  Thus at least in part, how His death and resurrection brought us salvation and life.  Legal sin debt  paid, not eternally dead, to return to, and remain, dust.

[Molly]

I agree with that too.

Her post, however, reads as though she is dismissing the words of Jesus telling us to pick up our cross and follow him.

I thought you were agreeing with her whole statement.

And while he did "take" the sins of the world, then why do people still sin?

See the mystery?

No, I didn't dismiss that.  Sorry I didn't make that more clear.  I thought about saying something.  It's a mysterious statement--pick up your cross.  It has meant different things to me at different times in my life.  I'm thinking now, it has everything to do with overcoming whatever he puts in our path.  Anyway, you are right, he did say we had to do that, whatever it means. :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

I'm kind'a keeping this off topic, but amen Molly.  If Jesus hadn't died for us, our own deaths wouldn't mean a thing.

Well that's just stating the obvious but the fact remains that He says if any of you wants to be my follower, pick up your cross and follow me.

Some things actually don't seem obvious to all.  OK, so you indicate you get that.  However, as I understand, taking up our cross is not how we're saved. 

Dunno. I find the word cross so loaded. The correct translation staff gives a much milder meaning to the verse. Even a totally different meaning if the staff is that of a shepherd

[jabcat]

I find 'staff' intriguing.  Can you elaborate please?  Thanks.

[micah7:9]

Does it not mean more a stake or post? I do not find staff as something for punishment or crucifiction, course it may be just me.