The other thread said "Can a believer go to Hell", but Hell really means the grave (where everyone goes before the judgement). So here is a more realistic question.
Yes, if that believer is in need of further refining, and the specific clue we have is one's name's lack in the Book of Life. "The Books were opened..." - plural, so we know at least two people get to walk in free.
Those of us who are chosen are going through the Lake of Fire. So many scriptures bear this out. Tough slugging but I thank God.
:Pray:
ALL names are in the book of life.......ALL...whose name is not going to be in the ALL? of the Book of life?
Names can be blotted out of the book of life. Those whose names are not written in the lambs book of life go through the lake of fire- which imo is parrallel to Gehenna metaphorically. The reality of it is seen through a glass darkly.
I believe there is only one fire(our God is a consuming fire) but He works through many applications of it. Jesus eyes are as flames of fire- metaphoric language for the one who "tries the reins and the hearts" and will "bring every hidden thing to light" because "nothing is hidden from the eyes of Him with whom we have to do".
The only reason we have a concept of the lake of fire is the writings upon the scroll. Those writings say, "and if anyones name was not found written in the lamb's book of life they were cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death".
Jesus said of His judgment on the day, "Depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
I believe this is speaking of aionian(olam) kolassis, "tormented in the presence of God and His holy angels". I don't believe torment is the word that best communicates the mind of Christ- and I think the word would be better translated afflicted, corrected, even punished is ok with me- because as Jesus described it, it would be better to have a millstone around your neck and be cast into the sea, or pluck out your eye and enter heaven whole.....
Metaphoric descriptions of an experience that is beyond our present ability to understand- divine intervention for the adversaries resulting in their being subjected(1 Cor 15; Phil 2:10,11) and "gathered into one in Christ" in the age(s) to come.
The Psalmist speaks of the prosperity of the wicked. Not all the wicked receive their recompence in this life. "The righteous laughs because he knows their day is coming".
Romans 2 speaks of that day, ", their consciences either accusing or excusing them on the day God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ."
We are in the fire now yes, but is it the lake of fire? I don't think so because my name is written in the Lamb's book of life. My sins are washed away. I have eternal life. I have received the propitiation for my sins as a believer in the Lordship and resurrection of Jesus Christ and I abide in that by grace through faith. The testing of my faith is a fire that revEals my heart to me and allows me to change into conformity to the character of Jesus. I personally don't believe that fits the description of the lake of fire.
I also don't believe the fire of 1 Cor 3:15(if any man's works are burned up he will lose his reward, but his soul will be saved, but as one passing through the fire)is the lake of fire. IMO it is the judgment seat of Christ "where we must all stand before him to receive the end of our stewardship of our time in the body."
Otherwise, why would it be written, "..and if anyones name was not found in the Lambs book of life they were cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death". There would be no reason to write such a thing if it was not so, imo.
I have passed from death unto life. "The one who overcomes will not be touched by the second death".
There are many stripes and few, and various applications of fire in this life for sure, for the believer AND the unbeliever.
"Everyone will be salted with fire(everyone who ever lived) and every sacrifice(believer) will be seasoned with salt."
But I do not believe that the wicked receive their full recompense in this life- and I do believe there is a recompense awaiting the wicked, and that it's supposed to be a part of the gospel we proclaim.
I dont think we are given all the details tho, so I am not trying to create a doctrine about what it is- beyond in principle.
I, imo, believe the question should read...Does a believer go to the lake of fire? And the Bible says yes.
Revelation 2:11 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
So the lake of fire IS the second death and the one who over comes will go there, but will not be hurt. At least that's the way I read it.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 06, 2014, 07:00:18 AM
We are in the fire now yes, but is it the lake of fire? I don't think so because my name is written in the Lamb's book of life. My sins are washed away. I have eternal life. I have received the propitiation for my sins as a believer in the Lordship and resurrection of Jesus Christ and I abide in that by grace through faith. The testing of my faith is a fire that revEals my heart to me and allows me to change into conformity to the character of Jesus. I personally don't believe that fits the description of the lake of fire.
I also don't believe the fire of 1 Cor 3:15(if any man's works are burned up he will lose his reward, but his soul will be saved, but as one passing through the fire)is the lake of fire. IMO it is the judgment seat of Christ "where we must all stand before him to receive the end of our stewardship of our time in the body."
Well said EW. Thanks for the clarification. I agree.
Have no fear,little flock,for I have overcome......an examination of He who has overcome seems to be in order.
the saints were overcome....that means believers Daniel 7 As I looked thrones were set in place, and the
Ancient of days took his seat. ...His throne was flaming with fire and it's wheels were all ablaze, A river
of fire was flowing coming out from before him.................
...then I continued to watch because of the words the boastful horn was speaking[shall the hammer exalt
itself over he that wields it?]...........................I KEPT LOOKING UNTIL THE BEAST WAS SLAIN...........
AND IT"S BODY DESTROYED AND THROWN INTO THE BLAZING FIRE[ LAKE OF FIRE?}.........
a man who has riches[salvation/all saved] without understanding is like the beasts that perish.....
Proverbs 9;2 . SHE[Wisdom] has slain her beasts and mixed her wine,she has sent out her maids
and she calls from the highest point of the city, LET ALL WHO ARE SIMPLE COME IN HERE! SHE SAYS TO
THOSE WHO LACK JUDGEMENT. 'COME!! EAT MY FOOD! AND DRINK THE WINE I HAVE MIXED! LEAVE YOUR'E
SIMPLE WAYS[beastly behaviour] and YOU WILL LIVE REV 22;17 The Spirit and the bride saay come,
whoever is thirsty let him come!!,and whoever wishes let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Man must over- come the mark of the beast=ignorance......that he may eat of the tree of life and live forever
the beast[ignorance] is slayed in man[consumed of God] that he[man] may offer THANK OFFERINGS UNTO
GOD<AND BE SHOWN THE SALVATION OF GOD..........God consumes[LOF] the beastly nature of man that
Thank-offerings and fellowship offerings be in His House[house of prayer for all men] This was shadowed
in the temple sacrifices and dining halls...holacosts......offerings..............
the ministry.....RISE PETER...KILL AND EAT=slaying vile ignorance of man[gentiles] that children of
understanding/Wisdom,Sons and daughters of God be raised up[restored/return unto God.[see sheet in
Peter's vision]
....the other beasts had been stripped of their authority,but were allowed to live for a period of time..=man
see through a glass darkly/ know in part.....
IN MY VISION I LOOKED..........AND THERE BEFORE ME WAS ONE LIKE A SON OF MAN,COMING WITH
THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN. HE APPROACHED THE ANCIENT OF DAYS ANDWAS LED INTO HIS PRESENCE
HEWAS GIVEN AUTHORITY..GLORY AND SOVEREIGN POWER................ALL PEOPLE'S>>>NATION'S
AND MEN OF EVERY LANGUAGE WORSHIPPED HIM...note this is the time of His coming on the clouds
v 26 but the Court will sit and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever
River of Fire before Him....Psalms 50;3 OUR GOD COMES AND WILL NOT BE SILENT: A FIRE DEVOURS
BEFORE HIM<AND AROUND HIM A TEMPEST RAGES> HE SUMMONS THE HEAVENS ABOVE< AND THE
EARTH< THAT HE MAY JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.....
Quote from: joeteekay on September 06, 2014, 05:28:06 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on September 06, 2014, 07:00:18 AM
We are in the fire now yes, but is it the lake of fire? I don't think so because my name is written in the Lamb's book of life. My sins are washed away. I have eternal life. I have received the propitiation for my sins as a believer in the Lordship and resurrection of Jesus Christ and I abide in that by grace through faith. The testing of my faith is a fire that revEals my heart to me and allows me to change into conformity to the character of Jesus. I personally don't believe that fits the description of the lake of fire.
I also don't believe the fire of 1 Cor 3:15(if any man's works are burned up he will lose his reward, but his soul will be saved, but as one passing through the fire)is the lake of fire. IMO it is the judgment seat of Christ "where we must all stand before him to receive the end of our stewardship of our time in the body."
Well said EW. Thanks for the clarification. I agree.
:iagree:
I like what is being said too ..
But there is a few things also I have considered that makes me think ,
being in the fire is not the bad thing most et'ers use to place fear in our minds with
I have read the description of Jesus and God is a consuming Fire , if everything goes back to God that Fire consumes anything that is NOT of Him
Jesus His eyes are fire
beryl in Dan
Daniel 10:6
His body also was like
the beryl,
and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
rev 19 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12
His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God
and Also in Isaiah 33 , was the most crucial part for me , and just the verses and description of being able to dwell in the everlasting burning 's
of God and the question to me was , Will we all be fire dwellers in God ? , And of the angels he saith, Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire
now here the way the descriptions are explained makes me wonder if Fire is a part of Gods nature to Cleanse and purify and the HOLY
iSAIAH 6 those seraphims ? with the coals for purging iniquity on the lips of his sent Isaiah to prophesy
and here Isaiah 33
10
"Now I will arise," says the Lord,
"N
ow I will be exalted, now I will be lifted up.11 "You have
conceived chaff, you will give birth to stubble;
My breath will consume you like a fire.12 "The peoples will be burned to lime,
Like cut thorns
which are burned in the fire.13 "You who are far away, hear what I have done;
And you who are near, acknowledge My might."
14 S
inners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless."
Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?"
15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the [m]impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty;
They will behold a far-distant land.
18 Your heart will meditate on terror:
"Where is he who counts?
Where is he who weighs?
Where is he who counts the towers?"
19 You will no longer see a fierce people,
A people of [n]unintelligible speech
- which no one comprehends,
Of a stammering tongue [p]which no one understands.
20 Look upon Zion, the city of our appointed feasts;
Your eyes will see Jerusalem, an undisturbed habitation,
A tent which will not be folded;
Its stakes will never be pulled up,
Nor any of its cords be torn apart.
21 But there the majestic One, the Lord, will be for us
A place of rivers and wide canals
On which no boat with oars will go,
And on which no mighty ship will pass—
22 For the Lord is our judge,
The Lord is our lawgiver,
The Lord is our king;
He will save us—
verse 14 is describing a very sure God whom is the consuming fire that never stops burning
This has been one of the most profound influences on me along with a dream like vision I had several years ago and seeing this round circle of fire from the waist on down with brilliant white and amber light emitting from its center core
I never talk much about them things , I feel they are personal and maybe just for us to experience , but it did impact in ways that have since changed the way I see and think about the Lake of Fire and Gods all consuming fire description in Deut 4 24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
and Hebrews 12 ;29
WoW Shelia good stuff !! we were posting at the same time !!!
Quote from: Jason76 on September 06, 2014, 05:04:51 AM
The other thread said "Can a believer go to Hell", but Hell really means the grave (where everyone goes before the judgement). So here is a more realistic question.
Personally, I agree with Eaglesway, that no follower of Christ will be in the Lake of Fire. However, I believe there is more to it than being a "believer." If you technically believe in Christ but you go about the countryside raping women and killing children, yeah you will find yourself in the Lake of Fire. The Biblical view of faith, is actually "faithfulness." Those who are not faithful to Christ are not only destined for the LOF, but are already in a fire.
I think it's pointless to discuss the LOF without talking about New Jerusalem, because New Jerusalem helps define what the LOF is. New Jerusalem is the BRIDE. As defined by Revelation the separation looks like this:
Inside New Jersualem = life
Outside New Jerusalem = deathSo, are faithful followers of Christ in the Lake of Fire today? I don't think so. To be carnally minded is death.
Isaiah 9
18For wickedness burns like a fire; It consumes briars and thorns; It even sets the thickets of the forest aflame And they roll upward in a column of smoke. 19By the fury of the LORD of hosts the land is burned up, And the people are like fuel for the fire; No man spares his brother.
To me, that is a pretty apt description of the Lake of Fire, and even in
James 3:6 he reference sinfulness to be like a forest set on fire, when he talks about Gehenna. I believe that fire comes from God as a way to bring humility to the proud who, while proclaiming belief in Jesus, go about having pleasure in sin and hurting people.
I believe there is coming a time when the Lord will separate the good fish from the bad fish, the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats, and like Prodigal Sons they will go their own way and be brought to humility. Everyone else, remains in the BRIDE, where the life of the Spirit is, and they preach the Gospel to the dead, who are outside the gates.
Quote from: Seth on September 06, 2014, 08:06:48 PM
Quote from: Jason76 on September 06, 2014, 05:04:51 AM
The other thread said "Can a believer go to Hell", but Hell really means the grave (where everyone goes before the judgement). So here is a more realistic question.
Personally, I agree with Eaglesway, that no follower of Christ will be in the Lake of Fire. However, I believe there is more to it than being a "believer." If you technically believe in Christ but you go about the countryside raping women and killing children, yeah you will find yourself in the Lake of Fire. The Biblical view of faith, is actually "faithfulness." Those who are not faithful to Christ are not only destined for the LOF, but are already in a fire.
I think it's pointless to discuss the LOF without talking about New Jerusalem, because New Jerusalem helps define what the LOF is. New Jerusalem is the BRIDE. As defined by Revelation the separation looks like this:
Inside New Jersualem = life
Outside New Jerusalem = death
So, are faithful followers of Christ in the Lake of Fire today? I don't think so. To be carnally minded is death.
Isaiah 9
18For wickedness burns like a fire; It consumes briars and thorns; It even sets the thickets of the forest aflame And they roll upward in a column of smoke. 19By the fury of the LORD of hosts the land is burned up, And the people are like fuel for the fire; No man spares his brother.
To me, that is a pretty apt description of the Lake of Fire, and even in James 3:6 he reference sinfulness to be like a forest set on fire, when he talks about Gehenna. I believe that fire comes from God as a way to bring humility to the proud who, while proclaiming belief in Jesus, go about having pleasure in sin and hurting people.
I believe there is coming a time when the Lord will separate the good fish from the bad fish, the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats, and like Prodigal Sons they will go their own way and be brought to humility. Everyone else, remains in the BRIDE, where the life of the Spirit is, and they preach the Gospel to the dead, who are outside the gates.
I agree. :iagree:
Also:
Water baptism (immersion) is symbolic of baptism by the Holy Spirit.
It is a process of cleansing, resulting in repentance and growing in grace and knowledge. Cleansing as by fire.Mat 3: 11 (CLV) For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, yet He Who is coming after me is stronger than I, Whose sandals I am not competent to bear. He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire.
1Co_3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
your post,jtky..made me examine 1 Cor ch 3.....seeing through a glass darkly we can do a work in the
ministry,such as the eternal condemnation/torment/annhilation of most of mankind....that will not
abide..forthe Day will bring it to light..it will be revealed with fire....not abide and be burned up.......
just as......those doctrines were burnt up out of me. Paul was speaking about divisions and worldly carnal
infants in Christ...sectarism denominationalism..men followers etc..
So,then,no more boasting about men...ALL THINGS ARE YOURS.....whether,life or death or the present or the
future..etc. I have been mullingover Paul's words here............in relation to our recieving the UR and
salvation of ALL men...whether present[today] or future[fullness of administration]..whether life..or death[die
once[all men] or 2nd death].
And Jesus word's in John 16;12 come to mind.......I have much more
to say to you,more than you can now bear. But when he,the spirit of truth comes...he will guide you
into ALL TRUTH. He will not speak on his own,he will only speak what he hears,and he will tell you
what is yet to come.HE WILL BRING GLORY TO ME BY TAKING FROM WHAT IS MINE AND MAKING
IT KNOWN TO YOU..........ALL THAT BELONGS TO THE FATHER IS MINE........THAT IS WHY I SAID
THE SPIRIT WILL TAKE FROM WHAT IS MINE AND MAKE IT KNOWN TO YOU.
Quote
I agree. :iagree: Also:
Water baptism (immersion) is symbolic of baptism by the Holy Spirit.
It is a process of cleansing, resulting in repentance and growing in grace and knowledge. Cleansing as by fire.
Mat 3: 11 (CLV) For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, yet He Who is coming after me is stronger than I, Whose sandals I am not competent to bear. He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire.
1Co_3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Yes, and the Lord warns us to keep clear of that particular fire, nevertheless, it results in good. If God gives Grace to the humble and resists the proud, though all his judgments are good, I'd rather be among the former than the latter.
I believe that the fiery trials of our faith is different than the lake of fire. We actually exit the lake of fire to enter New Jerusalem in order to have our faith tested and strengthened.
What is the "lake of fire"? I understand that judgment begins in the house of God. We, who believe and have Christ maturing in us now are that house of God and so then we are being judged by that Consuming Fire now. Those who teach eternal torment do not understand just what the purpose of the lake of fire is. That lake is a pond large or small(G3041) a harbor or haven(G3040) That pond or haven is made up of fire which burns trash and added to it is brimstone (G2303)sulphur (G2304) godlike divine, sulphur is used to purify. We go thru our lake of fire now which our harbor and haven. The lake of fire which is the second death will not hurt or harm us for we have been judged. This is at least how I am given to understand :dsunny:
Revelation 2:11 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death. Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
1Pe 4:17 because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial among you, which cometh upon you to prove you, as though a strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 but insomuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice; that at the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exceeding joy.
Mal 3:2 But who can abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap:
Mal 3:3 and he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them as gold and silver; and they shall offer unto Jehovah offerings in righteousness.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials,
1Pe 1:7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ:
I believe there's a way to be judged within the LOF, and a way to be judged from within the Bride. Personally, I don't think they are the same.
Quote from: Seth on September 06, 2014, 11:04:10 PM
I believe there's a way to be judged within the LOF, and a way to be judged from within the Bride. Personally, I don't think they are the same.
Is there a scripture for this? :Peace2:
Lots of scripture.
http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace2.html
Quote from: Seth on September 06, 2014, 11:55:55 PM
Lots of scripture.
http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace2.html
Pretty good article. :Chinscratch:
Jeremiah 49;12 This is what the Lord says..'If those who do not deserve to drink the cup must drink it.....
Why should you go unpunished/[uncorrected/undisciplined]?
I'm thinking of Jesus here...praying if it be the will of the Father that 'this cup pass' but never-the-less
THY WILL BE DONE...........
Quote from: Jason76 on September 06, 2014, 05:04:51 AM
The other thread said "Can a believer go to Hell", but Hell really means the grave (where everyone goes before the judgement). So here is a more realistic question.
Everybody without exception goes trough or to LoF.
LoF is about purification. Purification is needed to enter heaven because thieves, murderers, etc won't enter it.
When you look just a little bit under the surface of the English words like testing, purify, becoming holy, etc you will notice that all those words pointed to ancient professions that were about detecting and removing impurities. If you dig a bit deeper it becomes clear water, soap, fire, brimstone, molten gold, pruning, etc all point to the very same thing. The description of LoF is a collection of the most powerful cleaning purifying and healing words available to the ancients.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2014, 03:58:36 PM
Quote from: Jason76 on September 06, 2014, 05:04:51 AM
The other thread said "Can a believer go to Hell", but Hell really means the grave (where everyone goes before the judgement). So here is a more realistic question.
Everybody with exception goes trough or to LoF.
LoF is about purification. Purification is needed to enter heaven because thieves, murderers, etc won't enter it.
When you look just a little bit under the surface of the English words like testing, purify, becoming holy, etc you will notice that all those words pointed to ancient professions that were about detecting and removing impurities. If you dig a bit deeper it becomes clear water, soap, fire, brimstone, molten gold, pruning, etc all point to the very same thing. The description of LoF is a collection of the most powerful cleaning purifying and healing words available to the ancients.
:2c:
:thumbsup: :iagree: WW , I know your right ! studied this deeply and see the same things
but you did a better job of explaining it than I did [just had to add that part and make it to long and distracting :dunno2:]
for me its God whom is the consuming fire pure Holy Clean if everything He created goes back to Him it will be cleansed by Him and those things including His gathered have been already cleansed [ dead in Christ made alive ] from the dead in sin creating the Holy effect [
as likened to metals from the Touchstone/ the perfect instrument for such work ] comparatively
Thanks for your post :gimmefive:
Everyone must be cleansed. But once anyone enters the Bride of Christ, they are cleansed by growing in grace.
For example, did the Prodigal Son get purified by his experience? Yes, I would say so, but that is NOT the judgment for the faithful. The faithful will not leave New Jerusalem, and they have come OUT of the lake of fire to enter the city. Their lot is not to be humbled by their own sin, but to grow in grace.
Not all fire in the Bible is the same manifestation, thought it may come from the same source. The question is not whether everyone will be purified, but by what manner they will be purified.
For God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. Liars, whoremongers, murderers. Decide for yourselves whether that represents the humble or the proud. God tells us to judge ourselves now rather than to be judged-down with the world.
...I think the elder brother who remained with the Father has his portion in the LOF when he refuses to come in
and stayed OUT of the house where the feasting and dancing took place when the prodigal's come home.
Jesus was sent to the lost sheep/prodigals/sinners...to heal them...the healthy do not need a physician[healed]
purified for his lack of love that his brother is restored.
Quote from: sheila on September 07, 2014, 10:03:06 PM
...I think the elder brother who remained with the Father has his portion in the LOF when he refuses to come in
and stayed OUT of the house where the feasting and dancing took place when the prodigal's come home.
Jesus was sent to the lost sheep/prodigals/sinners...to heal them...the healthy do not need a physician[healed]
purified for his lack of love that his brother is restored.
If I compare the two brothers, one stayed with this father, and one left his father. They both received a humbling. The Prodigal Son went through a harsh and difficult experience that caused him to come back. The elder brother received a gentle rebuke. I'd rather receive a gentle rebuke than total loss of an entire inheritance.
What happens after the story, to me, is not essential. The parable stands as it is. The story is the story. It communicates a point contained within itself. The elder brother is not a real person, just an example of something.
Christ's faithful will NOT be cast into the Lake of Fire. They are in the Bride. In order for that to be represented in the Prodigal Son parable, the father would have to cast his elder son OUT of the city even after he was already gently corrected. But we see earlier in the Parable, that the father gave the prodigal son
exactly what he wanted. The elder son did not want to leave his father, but he wasn't perfect either. Nobody says that the elder son must be perfect; that's why he needed to be pruned. I don't think the idea that the elder son is then kicked out of his father's city for making a mistake is consistent with the rest of the parable, or with the love of his father.
Jesus himself says that men love the darkness. It is what they
want, even though it torments them. That's exactly what sin is all about. It's pleasurable but causes suffering. I see no indication that those who are in the LOF don't already want the darkness they embrace. But I do see that it causes humbling nonetheless.
imo it went like this..the prodigal went through a harsh and difficult expierence...and the elder brother
WAS harsh and difficult. same o same o..with the phairsee's and sadducee's when Jesus started forgiving sins
and eating and drinking with the sinners.
IT IS A REALLY BIG SIN TO HARDEN YOUR HEART IN UNFORGIVENESS...where was the elders brother's
love for his brother? sin..sin..sin...on these two things..love God and love your brother as yourself.......
as Jesus said 'those who are forgiven much..love much
Nobody who is faithful to the father is perfect. That's not required. What's required is that we be chastised according to grace to grow toward perfection. Everyone has sin and if we say we don't we are liars and the truth is not in us. What's clear to me from the parable is that the only reason the prodigal son endured his experience was because he wanted to leave his fathers side. The elder son did not. It doesn't mean he was perfect and there is no indication that any further judgment is needed for him unless we just extend the parable further than what it says.
its the same o same as the 11hour worker...and an evil heart coming forth..disgruntled feeling somehow
deserving of more..and feeling cheated cause you think your brother/fellowman got more[a better deal
somehow from the Father].
better be getting it out of your hearts..and not be lying against the truth......
That's why it's important to be chastened by grace. Why does chastening exist except that it's needed?
Ye must be perfect..as your heavenly Father is perfect...........ye can not meet out chastized by grace
for some[you] and growing to perfection...and LOF to other's....that"s a lying cheating pair of scales.
Truth is the Father loves both His sons..and that love is not based on works..and has,and will always
show grace as is needed to recover them. As all have bore the image of the corrupt one,so,too,shall
all bear the image of the incorrupt one.
the LOF is where those who didn't clothe[best robe] feed[enjoy the fatted-calf] one of these little ones
Jesus said..'whatever ye did or didn't do for one of these least[last/lost] little ones...that's the lost ones."
for I was naked,hungry,sick,in prison.......
Quote from: sheila on September 07, 2014, 11:56:59 PM
Ye must be perfect..as your heavenly Father is perfect...........ye can not meet out chastized by grace
for some[you] and growing to perfection...and LOF to other's....that"s a lying cheating pair of scales.
No it isn't, God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. A clear difference. Not all grow in grace because we access grace through faith.
QuoteTruth is the Father loves both His sons..and that love is not based on works..and has,and will always
show grace as is needed to recover them. As all have bore the image of the corrupt one,so,too,shall
all bear the image of the incorrupt one.
the LOF is where those who didn't clothe[best robe] feed[enjoy the fatted-calf] one of these little ones
Jesus said..'whatever ye did or didn't do for one of these least[last/lost] little ones...that's the lost ones."
for I was naked,hungry,sick,in prison.......
Yes and that is why the Spirit and Bride are shown ministering to those outside the gates of the Bride, doing good for the naked. But we are encouraged to be clothed.
...and you think the 'faith' is of ourselves?GOD MAKES IT GROW!!
now just who? was the humble one in the prodigal parable?
Lord,Lord didn't we cast out demons in your name...?
I never said it was of ourselves. The prodigal son was humbled by his own experiences. The elder son was judged by chastening. As his father said
Luke 15
31 "'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'"
There no indication that the elder son is not always with his father and that all the father has is not still his, unless we add to the parable. What's important is that according to the internal logic of the parable, the prodigal son was away from his father because he wanted to be. When he came back it was indeed glorious but that doesn't mean that one son is more loved than the other or that the elder son needs more punishment than what he got.
if ye have not love,ye are but a clanging cymbol....I did thus and thus......
.
We don't have love of ourselves. So we need the pruning of The Lord.
I'm reading my Bible and I may be repeating myself but I am reading my Bible..
"He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).
And then the second death is defined....Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Unless I am reading it wrong it says the overcomer[elect] is in the lake of fire[the second death]but will not be hurt in/of it.
:Chinscratch:
There are two possible ways to not be hurt by a lake.
1) being in the lake and not being hurt by it
2) NOT being the lake and therefore not being hurt by it
The existence of New Jerusalem as God dwelling among his people in the book of Revelation tells me that it's option #2. The reason they are not hurt of the second death is because they have access to rivers of life within the city, and the tree of life at the center of the city. The Bible describes those who are thrown into the lake of fire as those who had given power to the beast. These are clearly distinguished from the saints of the book of Revelation as those who have not defiled themselves (Revelation 14). Inside is life. Outside is death.
Here is what I believe you are assuming:
"He that overcomes shall be thrown into the lake of fire but, shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). The red part is not in the verse, but I think you are assuming it.
Revelation 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever (eis aion aion); they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
I lean toward Seths take on the Lake of Fire. I though, just recently, all go into/trhough it, even the Elect.
I now lean toward the idea that we all go through a fire, but for the Elect is is our own personal fire because of God's direct involvement in our lives.
And the Lake of Fire is a lake or large pond. Why? Maybe because so many need to be purified and purged in it during the WTJ. Billions of the non-Elect. After all is not a pond or lake that many go into on a hot summer day to be refreshed?
Gods refreshing for all will come at the consummation.
:2c:
:thumbsup:
When I see this "10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God"
I think about how wine is also associated with pleasure, and makes people drunk.
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is [r]unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Quote from: Seth on September 08, 2014, 11:41:54 PM
There are two possible ways to not be hurt by a lake.
1) being in the lake and not being hurt by it
2) NOT being the lake and therefore not being hurt by it
The existence of New Jerusalem as God dwelling among his people in the book of Revelation tells me that it's option #2. The reason they are not hurt of the second death is because they have access to rivers of life within the city, and the tree of life at the center of the city. The Bible describes those who are thrown into the lake of fire as those who had given power to the beast. These are clearly distinguished from the saints of the book of Revelation as those who have not defiled themselves (Revelation 14). Inside is life. Outside is death.
Here is what I believe you are assuming:
"He that overcomes shall be thrown into the lake of fire but, shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). The red part is not in the verse, but I think you are assuming it.
NO SIR, I do not assume what you speak. "He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).
I see no assumption, the SECOND DEATH will not hurt the overcomer, I believe(imo) they[overcomers]have went thru the FIRE in their walk, being the House of God their judgment has been proven, thus the lake of fire which is the second death will not be hurt. And you do well to remove
shall be thrown into the lake of fire but, cause it ain't there nor in what I stated.
It's not what you stated, but what I believe you are still assuming.
Your statement is this: "Unless I am reading it wrong it says the overcomer[elect] is in the lake of fire[the second death]but will not be hurt in/of it."
When does that Revelation passage SAY that the overcomer is in the lake of fire? The verse does not SAY that. Now, you are drawing from other verses outside of Revelation to prove that the verse says something it doesn't say. Regardless of what you think it implies or means, the fact is, Rev. 2:11 doesn't actually say what you claim it does. That's what the red text shows.
so be careful how you build...1Cor 3;13 it will be revealed with fire...v15 if it is burned up,he will suffer
loss[harm] the judgement of what each man has done in the bodywhether good or evilis revealed
by this fire..which willconsume our chaff/tares/wood. If what he has built survives,he will receive reward.
if it is burned uphe will suffer loss;he himself will be saved,but only by escaping through the flames.
God is a consuming fire
Wickedness is like a fire (Isaiah 9)
Both are applicable but God is not wickedness. So just because we see "fire" doesn't mean it always symbolizes ONE thing.
Revelation 21
Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things (New Jerusalem), and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
So, given that the BRIDE of Christ is God's people and he dwells within them, if anything when we receive Christ we exit our own Lake of Fire to start a new life to eat of the Tree of Life and drink from the waters that flow from our bellies, at least the LOF as defined in Revelation.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2014, 12:26:19 AM
It's not what you stated, but what I believe you are still assuming.
Your statement is this: "Unless I am reading it wrong it says the overcomer[elect] is in the lake of fire[the second death]but will not be hurt in/of it."
When does that Revelation passage SAY that the overcomer is in the lake of fire? The verse does not SAY that. Now, you are drawing from other verses outside of Revelation to prove that the verse says something it doesn't say. Regardless of what you think it implies or means, the fact is, Rev. 2:11 doesn't actually say what you claim it does. That's what the red text shows.
"He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).
One cannot be hurt from something that they will not experience.
If I don't experience getting into the ring with a boxer, I don't get hurt by the boxer. So I disagree with your statement as a matter of common sense.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2014, 12:26:19 AM
It's not what you stated, but what I believe you are still assuming.
Your statement is this: "Unless I am reading it wrong it says the overcomer[elect] is in the lake of fire[the second death]but will not be hurt in/of it."
When does that Revelation passage SAY that the overcomer is in the lake of fire? The verse does not SAY that. Now, you are drawing from other verses outside of Revelation to prove that the verse says something it doesn't say. Regardless of what you think it implies or means, the fact is, Rev. 2:11 doesn't actually say what you claim it does. That's what the red text shows.
The red text does not exist in the verse.
Exactly my point.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2014, 12:54:00 AM
If I don't experience getting into the ring with a boxer, I don't get hurt by the boxer. So I disagree with your statement as a matter of common sense.
My bad.
Isaiah 50
9It is the Sovereign Lord who helps me.
Who will condemn me?
They will all wear out like a garment;
the moths will eat them up.
10Who among you fears the Lord
and obeys the word of his servant?
Let the one who walks in the dark,
who has no light,
trust in the name of the Lord
and rely on their God.
11But now, all you who light fires
and provide yourselves with flaming torches,
go, walk in the light of your fires
and of the torches you have set ablaze.
This is what you shall receive from my hand:
You will lie down in torment.
Let me just say that I believe that the lake of fire is Judgment.
And Paul wrote Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
I agree. We will all stand before the judgment seat. The white throne. But I believe at that judgment seat, some will inherit the kingdom prepared for them, and others will not.
Hi Seth , I did read a lot of your article and hope to finish it , it was long , but read 2/3 and thought it was very good!
I can only say this about what I shared and what some others are bringing up
just as you said their are two types of fires
1 God is a consuming Fire
2 and the wicked are a fire
I believe God is fair and though we all share the same carnal nature and also the spiritual nature , this being of the 2 types of fires you have graciously explained and glad you have bothered , it all helps clarify things and are most appreciated by me personally
I need to think and change my mind often , all of growing in truth and grace
My main question is this can both fires exist in one person at the same time seeing that the Lords Word / Sword is two edged ?
when you rightly divide the Word of truth could it be speaking to both natures though the carnal minded is death & destruction
and the spiritual mind is life and peace
Do we experience both ? and not just one or the other ?
I just need some help getting this
you said if I dont get in the ring with the boxer , I dont get hurt by the boxer , common sense
but what if our carnal nature is the boxer and and our spiritual nature is also a contender of the same ring ?
and every man shall experience both ?
...BINGO!
QuoteHi Seth , I did read a lot of your article and hope to finish it , it was long , but read 2/3 and thought it was very good!
I can only say this about what I shared and what some others are bringing up
just as you said their are two types of fires
1 God is a consuming Fire
2 and the wicked are a fire
Hi Rose, thank you for your insights.
I just wanted to make a point of clarification. It says that wickedness is like a fire, not necessarily the wicked ARE a fire. Isaiah 9 says that they can be FUEL for the fire in how they consume eachother.
A related scripture is James 3:6 about how the tongue is a fire which can start a forest fire and consume the ship (the ship being the person).
QuoteI believe God is fair and though we all share the same carnal nature and also the spiritual nature , this being of the 2 types of fires you have graciously explained and glad you have bothered , it all helps clarify things and are most appreciated by me personally
I need to think and change my mind often , all of growing in truth and grace
Yes, we do have a carnal nature, but the point I try to make is that there are two ways to be delivered from it. Either we grow in grace or we become proud. God gives grace to the humble but reists the proud.
So when I look at something like 2 Peter 2, he is talking about "natural brute beasts" who are meant to be taken and destroyed. These are people who have pleasure in sin. This is a distinction between a well meaning, Christian who may sin, but not necessarily take pleasure in sin.
I think about how Jesus says that those who remain in him are to be PRUNED so that they grow more fruit. As opposed to the branch who does not, and withers. I think it is a whole different choice of lifestyle, not a matter of having sin (which we all do), and "resisting to the point of blood."
QuoteMy main question is this can both fires exist in one person at the same time seeing that the Lords Word / Sword is two edged ?
Looking again at the James 3:6 as an example, yes we do have a carnal mind, but it's the tongue that is a fire. So James is telling us to control the tongue so that it doesn't lead to a bigger fire. I see a difference between having a natural carnal nature, and being given over to the carnal mind.
Bingo, what?
Quote from: Roseredyou said if I dont get in the ring with the boxer , I dont get hurt by the boxer , common sense
but what if our carnal nature is the boxer and and our spiritual nature is also a contender of the same ring ?
and every man shall experience both ?
No not necessarily. I may have DESIRE to get in that ring, but may not DO the action of getting into the ring. In that case, I have taken captive my thought, so that my members (arms and legs) don't lead me into the foolish proposition of actually getting into the ring and getting hurt.
I separate being carnally minded with having a carnal nature and having the Lord do the work of breaking my mind of that condition.
Romans 8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Thanks Seth for your reply !! :thumbsup:
I am an adult with ADD and a thousand things run though my mind and it does get hard for me to settle down and even explain in words these thoughts
God knows its true
QuoteYes, we do have a carnal nature, but the point I try to make is that there are two ways to be delivered from it. Either we grow in grace or we become proud. God gives grace to the humble but reists the proud.
So when I look at something like 2 Peter 2, he is talking about "natural brute beasts" who are meant to be taken and destroyed. These are people who have pleasure in sin. This is a distinction between a well meaning, Christian who may sin, but not necessarily take pleasure in sin.
I think about how Jesus says that those who remain in him are to be PRUNED so that they grow more fruit. As opposed to the branch who does not, and withers. I think it is a whole different choice of lifestyle, not a matter of having sin (which we all do), and "resisting to the point of blood."
I do understand the pruning or loping off the offensive things that cause misery and only God can deliver any of us , and its having an attitude of willingness to change and learn
Pride is a big deal in many , many scriptures , showing its the main thing that causes destruction to others or within ourselves
many examples in the word
I know the most struggles are within us so personal and wearying battles
QuoteLooking again at the James 3:6 as an example, yes we do have a carnal mind, but it's the tongue that is a fire. So James is telling us to control the tongue so that it doesn't lead to a bigger fire. I see a difference between having a natural carnal nature, and being given over to the carnal mind.
Yes no man can tame the tongue it is an unruly evil and sets fires , Its Jesus who bridles our tongues
and renews our minds
I do thank God for a conscience , it lets me know when i have stepped into the broad path and though it saddens , you know its a good thing and our work is to try and keep our conscience clean
the two-edged sword..both fires.....and the Lord God will cleanse away the filth of the daughter of Zion
by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire....
No problem Rose. Thank you for your open mindedness to test me. I think when we have ideas about the things of God, it's important to test eachother in love, and I appreciate that.
QuoteYes no man can tame the tongue it is an unruly evil and sets fires , Its Jesus who bridles our tongues
and renews our minds
I do thank God for a conscience , it lets me know when i have stepped into the broad path and though it saddens , you know its a good thing and our work is to try and keep our conscience clean
I try to remember Christ's words. If your eye offends, cut it out and throw it into Gehenna where it belongs so that your whole body doesn't end up there. If our tongue is a fire, we ought to cut it out, so that we enter the kingdom of heaven mute and cannot do the action of speaking evil.
I think it is a stretch to read "lake of fire" wherever we read "fire" in the scriptures.
I would like someone to explain to me why it was written, "If anyone's name was not found in the book of life, they were cast into the lake of fire", or why Jesus said, "Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Or why He spoke of aionian pur (age-during fire) as a consequence of wickedness- if everyone goes through the lake of fire in this life only.
IMO no believer goes through the lake of fire, and the fiery trial of our faith comes from walking in fellowship with the One who is a consuming fire.
Our sins have already been forgiven. The purifying of our faith concerns service and worship and growth. The lake of fire involves corrective punishment and the exposure of hidden things and the people Jesus threatened with it were religious hypocrites and wicked adversaries and predators upon the weak.
I just dont think the Holy Spirit plays those kinds of word games in the writing of the scriptures.
IMO the scriptures are pretty clear that there is a manifestation of the fire of God that is reserved for adversaries and that it is not the same as the fire that believers go through to test and purify their faith. That fire is over for them when their "life in the body" is over.
Personally I think teaching that there are no aionian consequences for the wicked beyond a revelation at the great white throne just ignores too large a body of verses to be reasonably explained away as metaphorical language.
:2c:
:iagree:
I really couldn't agree more. Whatever anyone believes about the LOF, I think it's clear that it's a negative consequence, and the Bible says we are not appointed to wrath. The LOF is clearly spoken about to be the wine of the wrath of God. Babylon is said to drink of the wine of the wrath of God and she causes the nations to drink of it. But none of Christ's faithful are under God's wrath. We were SAVED from God's wrath (Romans 5:9). We are under his grace.
Revelation 18:3
For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."
So from what I gather, some folks who have or say they have the faith..... the lake of fire is a fearsome place, and an overcomer has to fear such a place.
I believe that when the judgment comes[the lake of fire]the second death, should I or any believer who has walked and been judged in the house of God, crucified with Christ, has the Word of the Lord in their heart, that he/she will not be hurt in the second death.
I will also ask, how can a vessel become the Bride unless that vessel has already been judged? And as I have said, the lake of fire...the second death....is the judgment.
The overcomer should fear nothing, for they have overcome the world. But the Lake of Fire is A judgment, not the only judgment. It's description in Revelation precludes applying it to the overcomer. The LOF, at least as described in Revelation, is for those who have not entered the bride.
Quote from: joeteekay on September 09, 2014, 12:13:54 AM
I lean toward Seths take on the Lake of Fire. I though, just recently, all go into/trhough it, even the Elect.
I now lean toward the idea that we all go through a fire, but for the Elect is is our own personal fire because of God's direct involvement in our lives.
And the Lake of Fire is a lake or large pond. Why? Maybe because so many need to be purified and purged in it during the WTJ. Billions of the non-Elect. After all is not a pond or lake that many go into on a hot summer day to be refreshed?
Gods refreshing for all will come at the consummation.
Why do you, "I lean toward Seths take....."
:2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 09, 2014, 04:56:30 AMI will also ask, how can a vessel become the Bride unless that vessel has already been judged? And as I have said, the lake of fire...the second death....is the judgment.
As a matter of fact the groom judges the bride during the wedding ceremony.
And obviously the bride (and groom) did some judgement before they took the first step to marriage. Simply because the fact he likes her it means some judgment was done.
The Bible is full of judgement. It's impossible to state person A is a good guy and person B a bad guy without judging.
Quote from: joeteekay on September 09, 2014, 12:13:54 AMAnd the Lake of Fire is a lake or large pond. Why?
That's easy to answer. The Bible even gives you the exact dimensions, material and ornaments. It's one of the many names for the Temple Laver which symbolically contains highly purified molten gold. Guess who sits in front of it in the HoH.
Lots of Revelation stuff is related to Temple object and rituals.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 09, 2014, 02:32:36 AMI think it is a stretch to read "lake of fire" wherever we read "fire" in the scriptures.
QuoteIMO no believer goes through the lake of fire, and the fiery trial of our faith comes from walking in fellowship with the One who is a consuming fire.
Intensity may vary, but the fire inside that lake is the very same fire of Pentecost and the fire of 'fiery trial of our faith'.
QuoteOur sins have already been forgiven. The purifying of our faith concerns service and worship and growth. The lake of fire involves corrective punishment and the exposure of hidden things and the people Jesus threatened with it were religious hypocrites and wicked adversaries and predators upon the weak.
Being forgiven has absolute nothing to do with purification....
QuoteI just don't think the Holy Spirit plays those kinds of word games in the writing of the scriptures.
What looks as word games may just be a manifestation of wrong/incomplete understanding.
The fire is (the essence) of the Father Himself.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2014, 02:06:53 AM
No problem Rose. Thank you for your open mindedness to test me. I think when we have ideas about the things of God, it's important to test eachother in love, and I appreciate that.
QuoteYes no man can tame the tongue it is an unruly evil and sets fires , Its Jesus who bridles our tongues
and renews our minds
I do thank God for a conscience , it lets me know when i have stepped into the broad path and though it saddens , you know its a good thing and our work is to try and keep our conscience clean
I try to remember Christ's words. If your eye offends, cut it out and throw it into Gehenna where it belongs so that your whole body doesn't end up there. If our tongue is a fire, we ought to cut it out, so that we enter the kingdom of heaven mute and cannot do the action of speaking evil.
Hi Seth ,
I love to learn the ways of God and share in those true treasures
I have been so blessed here at the Tent for many years now :HeartThrob:
I know about the tongue , its one of the most vile and poisonous'' members ''of the body small but DEADLY according to James
James 3:1-12New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Tongue Is a Fire
3 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a [a]stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in
what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. 3 Now if we put the bits into the horses' mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well. 4 Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires.
5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things.
See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our [c]life, and is set on fire by [d]hell.
7 For every [e]species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human [f]race. 8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
for me this reminded me of a serpents poison that little member the tongue that no man can tame , so would it take the Holy Spirit to tame the tongue ?
9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both [g]fresh and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce [h]fresh
This particular chapter has always been a blessing and challenge for me personally
and asking the Lord to help me hold the tongue when anger arises
because sin enters the scene
same as Jesus telling us let your yes be yes and no be no anything said more than yes or no that EVIL is present
where does that evil come from if its present ?
So you see why I am wondering ?
Its intense when studied in depth , and this alone can cause unrest within at times , for me anyways
guilt shows up and than shame after :sigh: a chastening of Lord no doubt in my mind
Quote from: eaglesway on September 09, 2014, 02:32:36 AM
I think it is a stretch to read "lake of fire" wherever we read "fire" in the scriptures.
I would like someone to explain to me why it was written, "If anyone's name was not found in the book of life, they were cast into the lake of fire", or why Jesus said, "Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Or why He spoke of aionian pur (age-during fire) as a consequence of wickedness- if everyone goes through the lake of fire in this life only.
IMO no believer goes through the lake of fire, and the fiery trial of our faith comes from walking in fellowship with the One who is a consuming fire.
Our sins have already been forgiven. The purifying of our faith concerns service and worship and growth. The lake of fire involves corrective punishment and the exposure of hidden things and the people Jesus threatened with it were religious hypocrites and wicked adversaries and predators upon the weak.
I just dont think the Holy Spirit plays those kinds of word games in the writing of the scriptures.
IMO the scriptures are pretty clear that there is a manifestation of the fire of God that is reserved for adversaries and that it is not the same as the fire that believers go through to test and purify their faith. That fire is over for them when their "life in the body" is over.
Personally I think teaching that there are no aionian consequences for the wicked beyond a revelation at the great white throne just ignores too large a body of verses to be reasonably explained away as metaphorical language.
:2c:
Hi Brother John /EW
I dont think its fair when we do not consider the other scriptures as well
and am not trying to be disrespectful here at all
I love and respect you as a brother as I do all with their thoughts and faith
I believe the chastening of the Lord is very painful , and Paul mentions this in Hebrews 12 4-14 clearly this is to also be healed and made whole
it is a reap what you sow and to be careful how we handle the Word and one another
I will just go ahead and share my thoughts , not wanting to change anyones mind , but share with you just why I am so adamant in what faith
I see with the FIRES of wrath If they be of Gods wrath or the wrath of man and Fire of Gods LOVE /jealousy
My first stament is this the whole world is on fire and has been for over two thousand years , not literally , but the FIRE and elements are being burned up now judgment is now and Jesus is separating and dividing men now , also in Peters speech , he goes into details
and I have gathered this from JESUS HIMSELF in Luke 12 Christ Divides and is separating them Men and it started right after His baptism and what happened , He was sent to the wilderness by the HOLY SPIRIT to put satan in his place addressing the devil Jesus Word / Fiery Sword would judge . luke 4 and Matt 4 12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It is said,
'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"Luke 12
49
"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!
51 Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;[THIS IS THE DIVIDING AND SEPARATING those under LAW and those UNDER GRACE ] and those cast off
52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.
53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
54 And He was also saying to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming,' and so it turns out. 55 And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, 'It will be a hot day,' and it turns out that way. 56 You hypocrites!
You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?!!!!!!!!!!
57 "
And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? 58
For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison.
59 I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent." the LAW of grace is in effect when Jesus was baptized and come / ROSE up , HEAR HIM , but the law of Moses =death is still in effect as well [ till Christ comes ] for all of us ... many tutors till Christ comes and we are lead to Christ ...
and the world is set on fire burning up elements by Jesus setting the world on fire , Yes the Holy Spirit and Fire is judgment hard for the old adam that must die and the new Adam man /New creature in Christ to be apart of the great fire destroying the powers and principalities and elements that be
2 peter 3 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
I believe in the fire dwellers of Isaiah 33 was prophecy and the prophecy is fulfilled in JESUS CHRIST , being that work done and finishing up in righteousness the coming of Jesus Christ to every one of us , each in his own order
For me the world is a watery grave till Jesus comes to set the world on fire and it starts with each one of us
I say this because no man knows the hour not Jesus or the angels but the FATHER ONLY
36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37"
For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. I have considered all these scriptures and looked into them , with many others as well , and its very hard for me to change my mind on them , because I believe the Lord allowed it
and has brought great comfort to know this.
I am only sharing this because it helped me and if it helps no one else , for this I am truly sorry , but if it helps just one , it was worth the effort
QuotePersonally I think teaching that there are no aionian consequences for the wicked beyond a revelation at the great white throne just ignores too large a body of verses to be reasonably explained away as metaphorical language.
Hi John
I just had to add this , I DO believe there will be judgment after this age
and know its truth Luke 12 is very important to me and speaks of this judgment also
4 "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will [d]warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into / Gehenna fire /hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
8 "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; 9 but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him
; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him. 11 When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
Matt 12 includes this age or the age to come
Luke 12 does not 31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him;
but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. GODS JUDGMENTS are Just and perfect ,
never doubted
But one day the Wicked will be no more
QuoteThe fire is (the essence) of the Father Himself.
Yes, many scriptures describe The Father !! :Peace2:
Quotebecause sin enters the scene
same as Jesus telling us let your yes be yes and no be no anything said more than yes or no that EVIL is present
where does that evil come from if its present ?
So you see why I am wondering ?
Its intense when studied in depth , and this alone can cause unrest within at times , for me anyways
guilt shows up and than shame after :sigh: a chastening of Lord no doubt in my mind
Hi Rose, I think you are referring to Romans 7, which I believe has been misunderstood through the years. Here is what I mean: Yes, evil is present, but the only way it can keep us from doing what we want is if we are under the law. "For sin taking opportunity BY THE COMMANDMENT, slew me."
Romans 7
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Then, Paul goes on to describe what happens when we live by the letter. Some people say that Paul is not describing his current spiritual condition, but nevertheless, he is definitely describing his experience with the Law, lest we fall from grace.
Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
The Law cannot do that, and I believe that is Paul's point in Romans 7. Turn the page to Romans 8 and we find this.
Romans 8
8 Therefore there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
So, having a carnal nature is not the same as being "carnally minded." Those who are carnally minded, they mind the things of the flesh and walk after the flesh. But those who have the Spirit walk according to the Spirit, so that they don't have to be under the condemnation of wanting to do good but constantly finding evil preventing them from it.
Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
What I am saying is that fire is when man is turned over to the carnal nature to be carnally minded. But God, through his Spirit means to save us from that. "For the Spirit and the Bride say come, and he who is athirst, come and drink the water of life freely."
How many ages/generations of jews who still deny Jesus Christ the last 2000yrs..cut off from grace? still not entered in...those
to whom the promises were covenanted. Lord,Lord..people can say that in address to God..but deny Jesus Christ...did we
not cast out demons in your name[ if I cast out demons by the Baezelbub..by whom do your sons cast them out?] denial
of Jesus Christ before men..results in denial before His angels[ministering flames] they did not know Him..He did not know them.
age of law/age of grace..aionian kolassis?AIONIAN CONSEQUENCES?
THIS IS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD UNTO LIFE{GRACE} WHOEVER CONFESSES JESUS CHRIST THAT WAS CRUCIFIED AND
RESURRECTED HAS RIGHTEOUSNESS.......through grace.
They will not see Him again until they say 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. is that not 'cut off"?
Quote from: WhiteWingsIntensity may vary, but the fire inside that lake is the very same fire of Pentecost and the fire of 'fiery trial of our faith'.
Let's take a look at the fire which tries the faith:
1 Peter1
6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
1 Peter 4
12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"[a]
19 So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.------
The fire testing the faith is the suffering brought upon the church through persecution.
The fire is the persecution of the church, which is brought forth by the wickedness of man. That's judgment according to the wrath of man upon the church, whereas the Lake of Fire is called the wrath of GOD upon the wicked.
I would agree that the fire is the same as that which tried the faith, but that in the day of the Lord, the fire of the wickedness of man is upon himself.
Both manifestations of that fire are revealed from heaven according to God's purpose.
Fiery trials come upon Christians in many ways. The rain also falls on the just and the unjust.
Can the death of a loved one be a fiery trial? An illness? Financial difficulty?
Many different things can come upon us as fiery trials to purify our faith, including persecution.
As we walk through this life God is teaching us to trust Him. To wait upon Him. To walk in His ways.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 09, 2014, 08:01:50 PM
Fiery trials come upon Christians in many ways. The rain also falls on the just and the unjust.
Can the death of a loved one be a fiery trial? An illness? Financial difficulty?
Many different things can come upon us as fiery trials to purify our faith, including persecution.
As we walk through this life God is teaching us to trust Him. To wait upon Him. To walk in His ways.
I would agree with that. But the context of the fire according to PETER'S usage was the persecution of the church by the wickedness of man sent by God. So, if we are to apply his intended meaning of "fire" in that instance to Revelation 14, I am fine with that. But I think in the day of the Lord, destruction shall come upon the wicked.
2 PEter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their
own corruption;
My whole point is that the Spirit coming at Pentacost is not what Peter had in mind regarding the fire that tries the church. Fire doesn't all represent the same thing. He meant the hard experiences brought externally upon the church as a way to judge them now and refine their faith.
The tongues of fire which rests upon the heads of the saints are likewise for judgment: "Know ye not that the saints shall judge the world?" For the Sprit and the Bride SAY "come drink the water of life freely." The Gospel is what causes knees to bend and confessions of Christ to come, caused by the Spirit and the bride, for God has used the foolishness of preaching. TWO things make people enter New Jerusalem: THIRST and WATER. "being utterly perished in your own corruption and having the Bride invite them to come drink" is a pretty good combination to get creation into the liberty of the Sons of God.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 09, 2014, 09:31:05 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on September 09, 2014, 02:32:36 AMI think it is a stretch to read "lake of fire" wherever we read "fire" in the scriptures.
QuoteIMO no believer goes through the lake of fire, and the fiery trial of our faith comes from walking in fellowship with the One who is a consuming fire.
Intensity may vary, but the fire inside that lake is the very same fire of Pentecost and the fire of 'fiery trial of our faith'.
QuoteOur sins have already been forgiven. The purifying of our faith concerns service and worship and growth. The lake of fire involves corrective punishment and the exposure of hidden things and the people Jesus threatened with it were religious hypocrites and wicked adversaries and predators upon the weak.
Being forgiven has absolute nothing to do with purification....
QuoteI just don't think the Holy Spirit plays those kinds of word games in the writing of the scriptures.
What looks as word games may just be a manifestation of wrong/incomplete understanding.
The fire is (the essence) of the Father Himself.
The fire comes from the Father, through Jesus- agreed.
However it may take many forms and various applications according to His purpose.
IMO, The flames of Pentecost are not the same as the flames of the lake of fire, altho they surely have the same source.
The flames of Pentecost anointed believers. The lake of fire is an experience for adversaries- and of course, it is not fire, as in actual flames.
The lake of fire is a metaphoric expression for whatever it will be- and is beyond our present comprehension. The image is given as a divine communicator of a concept that is too high for absolute definition.
One statement made about it, out of the FEW given, is that it is for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life.
Ignore that statement and there is no way a person can understand what the lake of fire is- even conceptually.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2014, 08:04:33 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on September 09, 2014, 08:01:50 PM
Fiery trials come upon Christians in many ways. The rain also falls on the just and the unjust.
Can the death of a loved one be a fiery trial? An illness? Financial difficulty?
Many different things can come upon us as fiery trials to purify our faith, including persecution.
As we walk through this life God is teaching us to trust Him. To wait upon Him. To walk in His ways.
I would agree with that. But the context of the fire according to PETER'S usage was the persecution of the church by the wickedness of man sent by God. So, if we are to apply his intended meaning of "fire" in that instance to Revelation 14, I am fine with that. But I think in the day of the Lord, destruction shall come upon the wicked.
2 PEter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Yes, this is the unquenchable fire reserved for adversaries. Not actual flames in a pond. An experience that goes beyond anything we can presently define or describe, other than in principle, within the limits the scriptures have given us.
Personally I believe there is a preponderance of Scripture enough to understand what the lake of fire is. It's death. Within the Bride is life. There is an abundance of scripture which define the difference between life and death on a spiritual level. But I do agree that the pentacost fire is not the same as the fire expressed by Peter. As I was adding above: The tongues of fire which rests upon the heads of the saints are likewise for judgment: "Know ye not that the saints shall judge the world?" For the Sprit and the Bride SAY "come drink the water of life freely." The Gospel is what causes knees to bend and confessions of Christ to come, caused by the Spirit and the bride, for God has used the foolishness of preaching. TWO things make people enter New Jerusalem: THIRST and WATER. "being utterly perished in your own corruption and having the Bride invite them to come drink" is a pretty good combination to get creation into the liberty of the Sons of God.
I do not agree that there is a preponderance of scripture concerning the lake of fire. We are told what it is for, and we are given conceptual information about its nature and what it will accomplish, but as far as exactly what the experience will be- we are given a few clues and no more.
We know that it will be accomplished in the presence of God(Rev 14:10)
We know that it will accomplish the subjection of those in it to the Lordship of Jesus
We know that it will accomplish the destruction of death and the grave.
I personally believe it will be an aionian council/assembly
Psalm 82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...
Heb 12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us......ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.....for our God is a consuming fire.
"Know ye not that you shall judge angels" .....
"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
I believe the lake of fire will be accomplished by the "great assembly" before whom the wicked will stand until every hidden thing comes to light, until every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord.
As John saw Jesus' to be flames of fire, so will all the eyes of all within whom God has already become "all" be, and as Jesus said , the ones who overcome will inherit all things and sit with Him on His Fathers throne.
When Jesus spoke of the axe being laid to the root of the trees and the "unquenchable fire" that would consume the chaff, I believe He was speaking of His words, the testimony of Jesus Christ which is the spirit of prophecy, and their effect upon the unrighteous institutions of men.
I think we are the lake of fire, in the heavenly assembly, in the presence of God- but to me, that is something I see through a glass darkly- not something I would teach as doctrine.
QuoteI do not agree that there is a preponderance of scripture concerning the lake of fire. We are told what it is for, and we are given conceptual information about its nature and what it will accomplish, but as far as exactly what the experience will be- we are given a few clues and no more.
I think there are way more than a few clues. It starts by a definition of what the LOF is:
DEATH. Then it contrasts it against what is found within the Bride:
LIFE. The invitation is extended to those who are outside the gates of the bride to come in and drink of life. I think the scripture is FILLED with definitions of what the difference is between life and death on a spiritual level.
QuoteI believe the lake of fire will be accomplished by the "great assembly" before whom the wicked will stand until every hidden thing comes to light, until every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord.
The great assembly is in the Bride. What Revelation describes is that the assembly is are inviting everyone in death (the LOF) to come drink of life.
QuoteAs John saw Jesus' to be flames of fire, so will all the eyes of all within whom God has already become "all" be, and as Jesus said , the ones who overcome will inherit all things and sit with Him on His Fathers throne.
I believe the throne room is among the bride, for they are given to sit on the throne of Christ. Therefore, I believe their tongues judge the world through the Gospel, so that they may leave aside the "wine of the wrath of God" (the LOF) and enter into New Jerusalem to drink of the rivers of life.
QuoteI think we are the lake of fire, in the heavenly assembly,
I believe the Heavenly Assembly is the BRIDE, God living with his people (Revelation 21:3). New Jerusalem is not the same as the Lake of Fire. They are separated by an open gate. Outside the bride is death, which is the LOF.
BTW, there is a difference between teaching as doctrine and sharing a belief. That is what I am doing. Sharing my belief on what the LOF is, why it is described as "death." But in no way am I hanging it as an essential doctrine. It's just what I believe, and I think there is reason to believe it.
1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
From what I understand, ancient Midrashic study helps us put the pieces together. I believe a foundational principle is that there is nothing in the writings of the 1st century that does not have a foundational witness in the earlier writings of the Tanach. For this reason, when I put together all the various thematic connections from Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, the Psalms, Deuteronomy, Genesis, and Zechariah, and then find their equivalents in the writings of Revelation and Hebrews, I come to the conclusion that the river of fire, the river of living water, the sea of glass, the lake of fire, and the fiery furnace heated 7 times, all refer to one and the same, having differing effects depending on who experiences it, all coming from he who is both the Consuming Fire, and the Fountain of Living Waters.
Our God is a consuming fire
Hebrews 12
25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."e 27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our "God is a consuming fire."
Hebrews 13
1Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. 2Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. 3Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
Do you see how that phrase is couched between warnings of judgment? From what I see, the phrase "our God is a consuming fire" is referring to judgment. Yes, it is from the same source, but the warning is clear to me. To be cast into the lake of fire (which is DEATH) is not to be imbued with the holy Spirit unto life.
That only occurs when we preach to them that are dead that they may live according to God in the Spirit.
We are told to hold true to the faith or we shall not ESCAPE the fire intended for the adversaries, which consume the briars and thorns. For when they preach peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them, and they shall NOT escape.
we are told to pray for our enemies..as it will heap coals of fire upon their head.....and that
when God is pleased with us He makes even our enemiesto be at peace with us.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2014, 09:49:24 PM
We are told to hold true to the faith or we shall not ESCAPE the fire intended for the adversaries, which consume the briars and thorns. For when they preach peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them, and they shall NOT escape.
Indeed, for those who display the character of adversary will want nothing to do with the fire, for they know what it will do to them, which they so desperately wish to hold onto in their blinded condition. As Isaiah wrote, in part:
You will conceive chaff. You will bring forth stubble. Your breath is a fire that will devour you. The peoples will be like the burning of lime, like thorns that are cut down and burned in the fire. Hear, you who are far off, what I have done; and, you who are near, acknowledge my might." The sinners in Zion are afraid. Trembling has seized the godless ones.
(Isa 33:11-14)
Quote from: sheila on September 09, 2014, 09:55:50 PM
we are told to pray for our enemies..as it will heap coals of fire upon their head.....and that
when God is pleased with us He makes even our enemiesto be at peace with us.
Painful indeed, yet ultimately beneficial. :HeartThrob:
Not just pray for our enemies, but preach life to the dead.
Water of life not the same not the same as the wine of the wrath of God. Drink one, not the other, and be sure not to mix them because one is death and the other is life and they have no fellowship.
ok cool, so we can share beliefs on this ;o)
You are shaing concepts of what the lake of fire is. When I say there is no preponderance of scripture, I am speaking about the actual experience- of which I believe there will be in the age to come(as well as there is in this present age). You may be more of the fulfilled view, that there will be no such future experience- I don't know. I agree tho that there is plenty of scripture concerning the nature of the judgment of God as fire.
But imo, the lake of fire is distinguished as the "second death".
Additionally, it is identified in several ways, metaphorically - as an experience of punishment/correction, as a large body of flame, as in the presence of God(rev 14:10) at the Great Whit Throne judgment- which is described in Rom 2 as the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ- their consciences either accusing them or excusing them.
In Rev 20, Rev 14, Matt 25 there is an interesting parrallel to 2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
The conversion of the cosmos from rulership by wickedness to the reign of righteousness occurs through fire. Notice in Rev 20 how it says the heavens and the earth fled away from the one who sits one the throne. In Isaiah it is written, "Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples".
The fire removes the veil, the earth will be inherited by the meek.
What mountain? Zion, the heights of which establish Jerusalem the heavenly city- the Bride.
The Bride does judge- "Know you not that you will judge angels?
Where was Gehenna? Just outside the wall of the City of God, Where are the grapes of wrath trampled out(Rev 14)? Outside the city. "And outside the city are the dogs, the immoral, etc"
To me these are all metaphors for the conversion of the cosmos from chaos and unrighteousness, into the kingdom of God- righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.
In Rev 20 the words "lake of fire", do not, to me represent death, because death is destroyed in this fire- the second death. death according to paul is the last adversary. It is destroyed in the "lake of fire" which is the second death- perhaps, the death of death for all who enter- to stand before the whole assembly of the righteous, to have the secrets they would not confess revealed in the fire(Rom 2), to be purged before the One whose eyes are as flames of fire and all who constitute "the great cloud of witnesses"- until the veil that covers is consumed and they bow the knee to rejoice in the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Why were there flames of fire upon their heads at Pentecost?
Why does Hebrews 12 begin with a great cloud of witnesses , then fully expound the heavenly assembly and then end with "For our God is a consuming fire".
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
IMO Hebrews 12 is the shop drawing of Rev 20 and 2 Peter 3.
"Yet once more...till only that which cannot be shaken remains" speaks again of the conversion of the cosmos- which Peter says will occur through the destruction of ungodly men by the elements(elemental principles) being consumed with heat- the fire of the testimony of Jesus Christ- the spirit of prophecy.
I believe this is what the metaphor of the lake of fire represents for what adversaries who persist in resistance in the age to come will experience- as per Matt 25:46, Rev 20, Rev 14:10, 2 Peter 3,
5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 09, 2014, 10:01:12 PM
ok cool, so we can share beliefs on this ;o)
You are shaing concepts of what the lake of fire is. When I say there is no preponderance of scripture, I am speaking about the actual experience- of which I believe there will be in the age to come(as well as there is in this present age). You may be more of the fulfilled view, that there will be no such future experience- I don't know. I agree tho that there is plenty of scripture concerning the nature of the judgment of God as fire.
I believe that there is a likeness of the lake of fire today inasmuch as I believe that there is a kingdom today, but it is not the final manifestation of it. I believe that the day of the Lord is yet future, but has a manifestation of itself today.
Edit: Also, I definitely agree, we cannot know exactly how each person will experience it. I didn't realize that is what you meant. :thumbsup:
I'm more looking at an overall view of what I see with regards to comparisons in Revelation. We cannot know anything more specific than that, I agree. But we can know that there is a contrast happening in the Book of Revelation.
QuoteAdditionally, it is identified in several ways, metaphorically - as an experience of punishment/correction, as a large body of flame, as in the presence of God(rev 14:10) at the Great Whit Throne judgment- which is described in Rom 2 as the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ- their consciences either accusing them or excusing them.
In Rev 20, Rev 14, Matt 25 there is an interesting parrallel to 2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
The conversion of the cosmos from rulership by wickedness to the reign of righteousness occurs through fire. Notice in Rev 20 how it says the heavens and the earth fled away from the one who sits one the throne. In Isaiah it is written, "Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples".
The fire removes the veil, the earth will be inherited by the meek.
What mountain? Zion, the heights of which establish Jerusalem the heavenly city- the Bride.
The Bride does judge- "Know you not that you will judge angels?
Where was Gehenna? Just outside the wall of the City of God, Where are the grapes of wrath trampled out(Rev 14)? Outside the city. "And outside the city are the dogs, the immoral, etc"
To me these are all metaphors for the conversion of the cosmos from chaos and unrighteousness, into the kingdom of God- righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.
In Rev 20 the words "lake of fire", do not, to me represent death, because death is destroyed in this fire- the second death. death according to paul is the last adversary. It is destroyed in the "lake of fire" which is the second death- perhaps, the death of death for all who enter- to stand before the whole assembly of the righteous, to have the secrets they would not confess revealed in the fire(Rom 2), to be purged before the One whose eyes are as flames of fire and all who constitute "the great cloud of witnesses"- until the veil that covers is consumed and they bow the knee to rejoice in the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Why were there flames of fire upon their heads at Pentecost?
Why does Hebrews 12 begin with a great cloud of witnesses , then fully expound the heavenly assembly and then end with "For our God is a consuming fire".
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
IMO Hebrews 12 is the shop drawing of Rev 20 and 2 Peter 3.
"Yet once more...till only that which cannot be shaken remains" speaks again of the conversion of the cosmos- which Peter says will occur through the destruction of ungodly men by the elements(elemental principles) being consumed with heat- the fire of the testimony of Jesus Christ- the spirit of prophecy.
I believe this is what the metaphor of the lake of fire represents for what adversaries who persist in resistance in the age to come will experience- as per Matt 25:46, Rev 20, Rev 14:10, 2 Peter 3,
5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
What you have shown is that there are SEVERAL usages of "fire" as it manifests as judgment, but not all manifestations are the same, though they come from the same God. I agree with that.
So, when I see the LOF in revelation, I see it CONSTRASTED against the life that is in the Bride. But I ALSO see that the tongues of fire are preaching life to the dead, and that is another manifestation of judgment. I think it's the wrong way to go to see fire in the Bible and simply apply it to God, but to not see also that the fire is manifested in several different ways. In the LOF it is manifested as DEATH.
Romans 1 describes the WRATH OF GOD and continues further to describe how God judges people according to the carnal mindedness they have "and receive in themselves the penalty for their error."
So if anyone has another definition of spiritual death other than "to be carnally minded is death" I would consider it in relation to the death which is the LOF. But I believe the LOF which is contrasted against the life that is in New Jerusalem and they that are, being told to LEAVE death behind and enter the open gates into life. I don't think that it's physical death though.
There are TWO aspects to the judgment of the LOF and being saved from it. WATER and THIRST. Man must THIRST for water, then LEAVE the fire and ENTER the city to receive life. That occurs through preaching to the dead.
QuoteIn Rev 20 the words "lake of fire", do not, to me represent death, because death is destroyed in this fire- the second death. death according to paul is the last adversary.
What this shows me is that the lake of fire's purpose is to destroy. It even destroys death. That is what I have been saying all along. The Prodigal Son was destroyed by his own death, and in so doing he remembered his father. The second death is INDENTED to cause destruction of the adversary, but so that
man can be saved. But they can only be saved by drinking the water of life. Death itself will not be saved, it will simply be destroyed. Isaiah 9 provides pretty darn consistent language to reveal how the adversaries will be destroyed by fire. Death will simply remain destroyed. Not all manifestations of fire in the judgment fire are the same.
The prodigal son returned to his father. BUT FIRST he had to die. The process of his death is that his own sin brought him down. In the BRIDE, where the tree of life is, they have already experience that. Jesus Christ was crucified OUTSIDE the city. That is where the flesh dies, and is destroyed. When that happens, we enter into the city through life by the Spirit where the tree of life resides. What we are warned NOT to do is return to death or we will be worse off than before.
So, some people do not heed this warning and they remain outside the city where their flesh is dying but they are holding onto that death. But the PURPOSE of the fire is to get them to come back into the city. When they do, death will be destroyed because its purpose will be fulfilled.
Wickedness is a consuming fire, and consumes until there is nothing left. The Prodigal Son had nothing left. And at that point all that remained for him was life, and his death faded away.
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 09, 2014, 09:59:29 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2014, 09:49:24 PM
We are told to hold true to the faith or we shall not ESCAPE the fire intended for the adversaries, which consume the briars and thorns. For when they preach peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them, and they shall NOT escape.
Indeed, for those who display the character of adversary will want nothing to do with the fire, for they know what it will do to them, which they so desperately wish to hold onto in their blinded condition. As Isaiah wrote, in part:
You will conceive chaff. You will bring forth stubble. Your breath is a fire that will devour you. The peoples will be like the burning of lime, like thorns that are cut down and burned in the fire. Hear, you who are far off, what I have done; and, you who are near, acknowledge my might." The sinners in Zion are afraid. Trembling has seized the godless ones.
(Isa 33:11-14)
Actually Jesus says that men love the darkness. And that the outer darkness is where there is weeping and knashing of teeth. What a coincidence that the carnal mind of man causes both pleasure and suffering.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2014, 10:09:32 PMActually Jesus says that men love the darkness.
What is your reason for saying this? It sounds like you saw something in my post that did not agree with this.
QuoteWhat is your reason for saying this? It sounds like you saw something in my post that did not agree with this.
You said this: "Indeed, for those who display the character of adversary will want nothing to do with the fire." I believe that man has pleasure in death. The Lake of Fire is death. We don't always want things that are good for us. Men LOVE the darkness, so God will give it to them, and they shall not escape the destruction it will cause them.
I also said this:
which they so desperately wish to hold onto in their blinded condition
Which is the darkness, a walking in death, which they do indeed love, which is why I said they wish to hold onto it.
I definitely agree with that last part, but the reason I responded is because I don't beleive that they know what the fire is enough to fear it.
Isaiah 9
Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
his hand is still upraised.
18 Surely wickedness burns like a fire;
it consumes briers and thorns,
it sets the forest thickets ablaze,
so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke.
19 By the wrath of the Lord Almighty
the land will be scorched
and the people will be fuel for the fire;
they will not spare one another.
20 On the right they will devour,
but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
but not be satisfied.
I believe there is a SOLID application of that scripture to the LOF. Nevertheless, even if not, what it shows me is that there is a kind of fire that men WANT, even though they don't see the destruction coming. And notice that the fire is a result of the wrath of God?
"for those who display the character of adversary will want nothing to do with the fire"
I think men DO want something to do with the above fire, but nothing to do with the destruction it will cause them. Hence the warnings in scripture.
Ronen, looking closer I see "will want nothing to do with the fire." My bad. I didn't see the word "will." Chalk it up to my dyslexia. I actually agree, that eventually they will want nothing to do with the fire. For now, I think people love it.
I see that light consumes darkness- darkness does not consume darkness.
I see that death is "swallowed up by immortality"
I see that the "the light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it".
The lake of fire is subsequent to the first death, clearly in the scripture as it is on the page in Rev 20. The dead were raised and they were judged by the things written in the books- the books perhaps being their consciences as described in Romans 2. I personally can't see the lake of fire as death at all, since it is callled the second death and those who are cast into it had already died and been raised and stood before the Great White Throne.
Certainly don't want to get into the fulfilled view versus the historic view here, but I definitely think there is an element that reaches outside of this present age and after His appearing at the end of the age in Rev 20- and for me the LOF fits there, and only there- altho the fire of God in general is at work always- I see the LOF as a specific remedy that is for the age to come.
I just want to take a look at the wine of God's wrath.
----
Jeremiah 51
"Flee from Babylon! Run for your lives! Do not be destroyed because of her sins. It is time for the Lord's vengeance; he will repay her what she deserves. 7 Babylon was a gold cup in the Lord's hand; she made the whole earth drunk. The nations drank her wine; therefore they have now gone mad. 8 Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken. Wail over her! Get balm for her pain; perhaps she can be healed. 9 "'We would have healed Babylon, but she cannot be healed; let us leave her and each go to our own land, for her judgment reaches to the skies, it rises as high as the heavens.'
-----
Lamentations 4
21 Rejoice and be glad, Daughter Edom, you who live in the land of Uz. But to you also the cup will be passed; you will be drunk make thyself naked. 22 Your punishment will end, Daughter Zion; he will not prolong your exile. But he will punish your sin, Daughter Edom, and expose your wickedness.
-----
Habbukkuk 2
15"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies 16 You will be filled with shame instead of glory. Now it is your turn! Drink and let your nakedness be exposed The cup from the Lord's right hand is coming around to you, and disgrace will cover your glory.
------
Revelation 14
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
From what I see in the above scriptures, the wine of God's wrath is to bring about madness and drunkenness, and also nakedness for the purpose of exposing the nakedness. God repays according to our works, which is why he says "woe unto them who gives drink to his neighbors, to expose their nakedness. Now it is your turn. Drink and let your nakedness be exposed." That's being repaid according to your works. This is the connection I see to the torment in the lake of fire, in that though men like to be drunk, they expose their nakedness (sinfulness, not clothed with Christ), and they are in the open. I believe sin causes both drunkenness and torment.
Those things are true in general principle. God brings our works upon us. But that is not the limit of it. Those portions of scripture say something that is true- but they are not all that is written on the matter.
"Some men's sins go before them into judgment, some men's sins follow after"
There are those who do not reap the fruit of their sins until the day of God. Many wicked men go to their graves having not yet recieved the fruit of their iniquities. That is why Jesus spoke, as well as the apostles, about fleeing, "the wrath to come"- and "aionian kolassis" and "aionian pur".
First we agree the founding principles of the judgment of God that are always in effect. Then we see the specific applications of those founding principles- and they are applied in various ways appropriate to the purpose of God in the "administration suitable tot he fulness of times"- of which the LOF(imo) is one specific application in the age to come.
I just wanted to clarify, do you think I am speaking about the LOF from a preterist perspective? I don't see it that way. I believe the day of the Lord is still coming. I just have ideas about what mechanisms of that judgement will be and I see some of it in operation today.
According to the understanding I have been given, this is how it is in the darker regions of the
aionios kolasis...
Quote
Isaiah 9
...and the people will be fuel for the fire;
they will not spare one another.
According to my understanding, this is how it is in the not-so-dark regions of the
aionios kolasis...
Quote
Isaiah 9
On the right they will devour,
but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
but not be satisfied.
...and greedy, materialistic, hateful, hedonistic man invites such conditions. And nobody can say that God did not warn them.
The fire that burns in the repentent is of sanctification.
Reverence to He who is saves.
I agree
I think the reason it can be confusing is because John saw a lake of fire. But there are many scriptures that utilize the image of fire to symbolize so many different things. I don't think that they compete with eachother for which one is the LOF. Even though James doesn't see the Bride of Christ as being a fire in that particular part of the vision, I believe that fire can be applied to understand New Jerusalem too.
If God is a fire, then the tree of life is also a fire. But if wickedness is a fire, I believe that speaks to the fire that John saw outside the city in that particular moment in that particular vision. I see the fall of Babylon much like how death is thrown into the lake of fire. The evil that it brings upon itself consumes it until it is nothing.
In another vision, God might represent wickedness itself like being a city, and God's rebuke of that city would be like a fire. So it could be completely reversed and "fire" would still apply to it all, just different ways in different visions.
Heck, in Isaiah 50 we are told to walk in the darkness, because man carries his own light and his own fire. God completely reverses the image of fire and light and darkness to mean opposite things in different parts of the visions. God spends so much time telling us to walk in the light and that God is a fire, then he turns around and tells us to walk in the darkness as concerning the light and fire of men.
Jason started this thread which has been one of good debate and opinions of things concerning the LOF.
Heb 9:27 has been referenced to.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
First we die. This is not physical death. We are crucified with Christ. Become a new man. Our death is now in Christ. A death of the old man whom we fight against daily.
1Co_15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
This is when judgement begins for the Elect. We die daily in Christ.
1Pe_4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
We are being judged now and purified by fire, but not the Lake of Fire (IMO)
Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
The elect shall not be hurt (injured by the second death), which by definition is the LOF.
Hurt (injured) is Strong's G91
ἀδικέω
to do wrong
Strong's:
ἀδικέω
to be unjust, i.e. (actively) do wrong (morally, socially or physically)
KJV Usage: hurt, injure, be an offender, be unjust, (do, suffer, take) wrong.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The Elect are in the first resurrection. Second death (LOF) is not an issue or of relevance to them as we see from Rev. 20:6.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Yes, in the White Throne Judgement all of the non-elect will be purified with fire like us, but it is the LOF.
Then all will be all in all as we who believe in the salvation of all will occur at the consummation.
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 12:20:33 AM
I just wanted to clarify, do you think I am speaking about the LOF from a preterist perspective? I don't see it that way. I believe the day of the Lord is still coming. I just have ideas about what mechanisms of that judgement will be and I see some of it in operation today.
I wasnt sure. I see it the same. The principles involved in what the LOF will be, are in operation today(exposure of hidden things, penetration of darkness by light, etc.). But I see the LOF as a specific experience of kolassis for unbelievers/adversaries.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2014, 06:50:19 PM
Quotebecause sin enters the scene
same as Jesus telling us let your yes be yes and no be no anything said more than yes or no that EVIL is present
where does that evil come from if its present ?
So you see why I am wondering ?
Its intense when studied in depth , and this alone can cause unrest within at times , for me anyways
guilt shows up and than shame after :sigh: a chastening of Lord no doubt in my mind
Hi Rose, I think you are referring to Romans 7, which I believe has been misunderstood through the years. Here is what I mean: Yes, evil is present, but the only way it can keep us from doing what we want is if we are under the law. "For sin taking opportunity BY THE COMMANDMENT, slew me."
Romans 7
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Then, Paul goes on to describe what happens when we live by the letter. Some people say that Paul is not describing his current spiritual condition, but nevertheless, he is definitely describing his experience with the Law, lest we fall from grace.
Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
The Law cannot do that, and I believe that is Paul's point in Romans 7. Turn the page to Romans 8 and we find this.
Romans 8
8 Therefore there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
So, having a carnal nature is not the same as being "carnally minded." Those who are carnally minded, they mind the things of the flesh and walk after the flesh. But those who have the Spirit walk according to the Spirit, so that they don't have to be under the condemnation of wanting to do good but constantly finding evil preventing them from it.
Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
What I am saying is that fire is when man is turned over to the carnal nature to be carnally minded. But God, through his Spirit means to save us from that. "For the Spirit and the Bride say come, and he who is athirst, come and drink the water of life freely."
I hate to back peddle , but wanted to go ahead and answer you Seth , because you went to the trouble of an answer addressed to me
and agree with you on Romans 7 , showing us the example of '' being dead in Christ '', as the law slew Paul
and the Bride saying come those whom thirst drink of the waters of life freely
I appreciate your detailed answer
and Do agree that the mind or heart of us all must be captive in Christ to allow the Spirit to lead the body
the body is the vehicle to which either one is a servant to sin or servant to Christ , just that simple and not complicated
That is why Paul went on to explain beating his body into subjection , trying to get it under control to be a good servant to Christ and the higher calling of ministry spreading the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the grace that comes in trials and error .
1 Corth 9 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;[ or for nothing ]
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
I have to focus to be able to keep up :sigh: and that is 100 % or my mind cannot participate in these discussions
God bless you and all
Quote from: sheila on September 09, 2014, 07:17:57 PM
How many ages/generations of jews who still deny Jesus Christ the last 2000yrs..cut off from grace? still not entered in...those
to whom the promises were covenanted. Lord,Lord..people can say that in address to God..but deny Jesus Christ...did we
not cast out demons in your name[ if I cast out demons by the Baezelbub..by whom do your sons cast them out?] denial
of Jesus Christ before men..results in denial before His angels[ministering flames] they did not know Him..He did not know them.
age of law/age of grace..aionian kolassis?AIONIAN CONSEQUENCES?
THIS IS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD UNTO LIFE{GRACE} WHOEVER CONFESSES JESUS CHRIST THAT WAS CRUCIFIED AND
RESURRECTED HAS RIGHTEOUSNESS.......through grace.
They will not see Him again until they say 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. is that not 'cut off"?
Hi Shelia I do believe Paul addresses this in Romans 9 Jesus makes a short work in righteousness
But as you can see here in the highlighted verses what results we have by the WORD OF GOD
they also would have been as Sodom and Gomorrah[ The fire of Judgment but spared them by leaving the remnant ] calling out of Both sets those whom will come in the name of the Lord , If its now or if its to come , or even if its both now and than , I cannot say because I believe there is an invisible realm where many things are going on in the Spirit and in righteousness after mortal death , that the mortal man that is here on earth has no clue about what so ever .. and only By the Spirit would one be able to make this claim , Our hope is in God and always will be .
New American Standard Bible
Solicitude for Israel
1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."
10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?
The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 2
4even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.25As He says also in Hosea,
"I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
26"
AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."
29And just as Isaiah foretold,
"UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."
30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33just as it is written,
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2014, 08:04:33 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on September 09, 2014, 08:01:50 PM
Fiery trials come upon Christians in many ways. The rain also falls on the just and the unjust.
Can the death of a loved one be a fiery trial? An illness? Financial difficulty?
Many different things can come upon us as fiery trials to purify our faith, including persecution.
As we walk through this life God is teaching us to trust Him. To wait upon Him. To walk in His ways.
I would agree with that. But the context of the fire according to PETER'S usage was the persecution of the church by the wickedness of man sent by God. So, if we are to apply his intended meaning of "fire" in that instance to Revelation 14, I am fine with that. But I think in the day of the Lord, destruction shall come upon the wicked.
2 PEter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
My whole point is that the Spirit coming at Pentacost is not what Peter had in mind regarding the fire that tries the church. Fire doesn't all represent the same thing. He meant the hard experiences brought externally upon the church as a way to judge them now and refine their faith.
The tongues of fire which rests upon the heads of the saints are likewise for judgment: "Know ye not that the saints shall judge the world?" For the Sprit and the Bride SAY "come drink the water of life freely." The Gospel is what causes knees to bend and confessions of Christ to come, caused by the Spirit and the bride, for God has used the foolishness of preaching. TWO things make people enter New Jerusalem: THIRST and WATER. "being utterly perished in your own corruption and having the Bride invite them to come drink" is a pretty good combination to get creation into the liberty of the Sons of God.
I love what you said both John and Seth ,
I get this :thumbsup: thanks
John you are right , the suffering and loss , we suffer not having ''control '' over our lives and loose many , many things we thought we had forever
and its all so temporary here and now , when we develop growth in Spiritual faith and keep hope alive in Christ and depend on Him ,we learn what true righteousness is in Christ , not to put stock on anything we have or control All is Gods for the choosing to build up and tear down and make all things new again
and I get that Seth well said ! Being under the persecution by faith and entering the Body of Christ / church , perfect example was Saul as killing the new babes in Christ , Till Jesus come to Him in the Spirit and showed Him the error of his ways , and this is where I believe we also have the return of Christ to correct our error of our ways , its a visit and hardship Saul experienced to being changed , to become Paul a new name and new stone , that stone would represent the new building '' Temple of the Living God though Jesus Christ Body in Heaven , His name written in the Lambs book of life . from Saul to Paul from a worker of iniquity to a worker in Christ righteousness
from the left hand to the right hand from a goat to a sheep , the goats and bulls represent the old covenant in Hebrews chapters 7 -10 of slaughter and blood that could never make perfect [its the in part that kills ] that is fading and waxing old and the sheep the new covenant under ONE SHEPHERD JESUS CHRIST by grace to make ALIVE .
I thank God for all this wonderful discussion , its cleared up a lot of things , we desire the crystal clear waters who would NOT ? , muddy water is for the desperate , and though it helps it never satisfies or sanctifies , It Must Come from the Lord Himself by Holy Spirit
QuoteI thank God for all this wonderful discussion , its cleared up a lot of things , we desire the crystal clear waters who would NOT ? , muddy water is for the desperate , and though it helps it never satisfies or sanctifies , It Must Come from the Lord Himself by Holy Spirit
Yeah, I agree. I was saying this in an earlier post but I didn't say it how I really wanted to say it. Given that the Lake of Fire image is not completely explained by John from the Lord, it leaves us with the task of determining what it could mean. I can only describe my own way of doing this, and not to say it's necessarily the RIGHT way or the only way, but my way of thinking is as follows:
I start with the fact that one image can represent several different concepts at different times (God is a fire, ministers are a fire, wickedness is a fire), so while fire might represent something holy in one scripture, it might represent something unholy in another. That's up to God. My approach is to determine the intended meaning of "fire" in that particular instance of scripture.
I do that by COMPARING the image to other images in the same scripture to see what those images could all represent. For example:
God's kingdom is ministers of flaming fire in one scripture, and a vineyard in another, and a pearl, and a net which captures fish, and leaven, and also a city called New Jerusalem in another scripture.
God himself is a flaming fire in one scripture, and a lion in another, and a sword, and a lamb, and a Tree of Life and rivers of running water in another scripture.
Wickedness is compared to a fire in Isaiah 9 which contains references to rising smoke, thorns and briers, devouring, God's wrath etc etc, and we have the wine of God's wrath that causes men to make themselves naked, so God can expose their nakedness, and John 3:6 teaching about Gehenna fire related to the tongue etc etc.
So when I compare everything in John's vision against the images contained within the passage, I come to the conclusion that the fire in Revelation 14 and 20 is most likely referencing Isaiah 9, in THAT particular instance. Not to say that the image of fire does not apply to God and to his ministers in other scripture, but I don't think that God is employing those metaphors in that way at that time.
Again, it's like how God says to walk in darkness in Isaiah 50. To know what he means, I need to COMPARE the "darkness" to the fiery torches of man in the same passage, which give off the light of man. Then I know that must walk in darkness COMPARED TO the light of man, and thus we are walking in the light.
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
QuoteI thank God for all this wonderful discussion , its cleared up a lot of things , we desire the crystal clear waters who would NOT ? , muddy water is for the desperate , and though it helps it never satisfies or sanctifies , It Must Come from the Lord Himself by Holy Spirit
Yeah, I agree. I was saying this in an earlier post but I didn't say it how I really wanted to say it. Given that the Lake of Fire image is not completely explained by John from the Lord, it leaves us with the task of determining what it could mean. I can only describe my own way of doing this, and not to say it's necessarily the RIGHT way or the only way, but my way of thinking is as follows:
I start with the fact that one image can represent several different concepts at different times (God is a fire, ministers are a fire, wickedness is a fire), so while fire might represent something holy in one scripture, it might represent something unholy in another. That's up to God. My approach is to determine the intended meaning of "fire" in that particular instance of scripture.
I do that by COMPARING the image to other images in the same scripture to see what those images could all represent. For example:
God's kingdom is ministers of flaming fire in one scripture, and a vineyard in another, and a pearl, and a net which captures fish, and leaven, and also a city called New Jerusalem in another scripture.
God himself is a flaming fire in one scripture, and a lion in another, and a sword, and a lamb, and a Tree of Life and rivers of running water in another scripture.
Wickedness is compared to a fire in Isaiah 9 which contains references to rising smoke, thorns and briers, devouring, God's wrath etc etc, and we have the wine of God's wrath that causes men to make themselves naked, so God can expose their nakedness, and John 3:6 teaching about Gehenna fire related to the tongue etc etc.
So when I compare everything in John's vision against the images contained within the passage, I come to the conclusion that the fire in Revelation 14 and 20 is most likely referencing Isaiah 9, in THAT particular instance. Not to say that the image of fire does not apply to God and to his ministers in other scripture, but I don't think that God is employing those metaphors in that way at that time.
Again, it's like how God says to walk in darkness in Isaiah 50. To know what he means, I need to COMPARE the "darkness" to the fiery torches of man in the same passage, which give off the light of man. Then I know that must walk in darkness COMPARED TO the light of man, and thus we are walking in the light.
What about Isaiah 33 Seth ?
I am glad you see that and are willing to say it , that many fires , I agree but I also believe in ONE source Gods consuming fire , all come from Him and all shall be purified by Him
I still believe the in the HOLY SPIRIT &FIRE as Gods judgment and chastening of the Lord now in the body and even after a mortals death and the purpose of the Lake of Fire as cleansing and purifying of DEATH completely every man shall be delivered from hell/graves & death by the work of Jesus Christ His blood and the cross but not before the judgments of God in the earth
I believe the fire of men as prideful doing evil by a Spirit that is not of Jesus Christ opposing Gods will and do reap as they sow , as not the fire of correction , but the fire of torment Rev 9 the King Abaddon of Hebrew and APOLLYON Greek , they cause hurt the 2nd death , till they are cast in the lake of Fire to be purged
the riders on the horses of hell [of the old testament grave and death in the new testament ] to be cast into it , but first they must complete the prophecy in revelation 9 as destroyers
e Hebrew term Abaddon (Hebrew: אֲבַדּוֹן, 'Ǎḇaddōn), and its Greek equivalent Apollyon (Greek: Ἀπολλύων, Apollyon), appear in the Bible as a place of destruction and an angel, respectively. In the Hebrew Bible, abaddon is used with reference to a bottomless pit, often appearing alongside the place שאול (sheol), meaning the land of the dead. In the New Testament Book of Revelation, an angel called Abaddon is written as the king of an army of locusts; his name is first transcribed in Greek (Revelation 9:11 – "whose name in Hebrew Abaddon" (Ἀβαδδὼν)), and then translated ("which in Greek means the Destroyer" (Ἀπολλύων, Apollyon)).
We can see How God uses evil , the stings in their tails /lies Rev 9 to make good , Many come to repentance and to Christ
Its just how I believe and not expecting anyone else to believe as I do , If I am wrong, I am sure Gods fire of chastening will correct me , and as painful to confess , I believed a lie , its on me only :sigh: but had to speak up
Unless I'm in error there are but two places in all Scripture that speak of "EVERY MAN'S WORK" being tried and judged: Twice in I Cor. 3 and twice in Rev. 20. And there are but two places in all Scripture where every man's work is tried and judged "IN FIRE" I Cor. 3 and Rev. 20.
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture at all is becoming its OWN EXPLANATION" (II Pet. 1:20)
So I Cor. 3 cannot completely answer all that is contained within its verses without the aid of the ONLY other such Scripture in the Bible, Rev. 20. And Rev. 20 cannot completely answer all that is contained within its verses without the aid of the ONLY other such Scripture in the Bible, I Cor. 3.
1Co 2:13 ....... comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
That's why in my opinion nothing can be offered regarding eternity. Isa. 57:15.
Rose, Here is what I see Isaiah 33 as saying
Isaiah 33 (KJV)
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
What I notice is that they shall bring forth chaff, they shall bring forth stubble, and their breath, like fire, will devour them. One translation has it that God's breath will devour them. But most have it that the same people who conceive the chaff (dry grass) and the stubble are the ones devouring themselves in their own fire with their own breath. But even if the reference is to God, if that is the case, according to the logic of the passage, then God would also be the one who births the chaff, and births the stubble. That would remind me of the wine of the wrath of God which causes men to make themselves naked and have their nakedness exposed.
So, I would see a reference to Isaiah 9 and how that "God's hand his raised in his anger" and that man devours eachother in the fire of their own wickedness.
I think the dry grass being birthed from within them and being burned by their breath reminds me of James 3:6, the tongue is a fire which can lead to a forest fire which devours the whole body.
So the burnings are fearful to those who are sinners in Zion. The description of New Jerusalem in Revelation is that nothing unclean may enter. So, if that is the case, doesn't it show why the sinners in Zion are afraid? Didn't Christ's parable say that those who are found wearing the wrong robes are to be BOUND hand and foot and thrown OUT of the wedding party? That's the fire that I believe they are afraid of. But for those in Zion who are not afraid:
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Those who "shut their eyes" (remember, Jesus told us to cut out our eyes and throw them into Gehenna so that our whole bodies don't go there) they continue to dwell on high. Their waters shall be sure. Where is the water in Revelation 20? Inside the city where NOTHING which defiles can remain.
Zion is on high. Gehenna is below.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 10, 2014, 08:08:19 PM
Unless I'm in error there are but two places in all Scripture that speak of "EVERY MAN'S WORK" being tried and judged: Twice in I Cor. 3 and twice in Rev. 20. And there are but two places in all Scripture where every man's work is tried and judged "IN FIRE" I Cor. 3 and Rev. 20.
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture at all is becoming its OWN EXPLANATION" (II Pet. 1:20)
So I Cor. 3 cannot completely answer all that is contained within its verses without the aid of the ONLY other such Scripture in the Bible, Rev. 20. And Rev. 20 cannot completely answer all that is contained within its verses without the aid of the ONLY other such Scripture in the Bible, I Cor. 3.
1Co 2:13 ....... comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
That's why in my opinion nothing can be offered regarding eternity. Isa. 57:15.
:thumbsup: 14And it will be said, "Build up, build up, prepare the way, Remove every obstacle out of the way of My people."
15For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell on a high and holy place,
And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.
16"For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would grow faint before Me, And the breath of those whom I have made
Every knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess !!
...10But you, why do you judge your brother?
Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written, "
AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
:HeartThrob:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved,
yet so as through fire.16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness"; 20 and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless." 21
So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.
Judgment at the Throne of God
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from
whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and
the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 08:24:10 PM
Rose, Here is what I see Isaiah 33 as saying
Isaiah 33 (KJV)
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
What I notice is that they shall bring forth chaff, they shall bring forth stubble, and their breath, like fire, will devour them. One translation has it that God's breath will devour them. But most have it that the same people who conceive the chaff (dry grass) and the stubble are the ones devouring themselves in their own fire with their own breath. But even if the reference is to God, if that is the case, according to the logic of the passage, then God would also be the one who births the chaff, and births the stubble. That would remind me of the wine of the wrath of God which causes men to make themselves naked and have their nakedness exposed.
So, I would see a reference to Isaiah 9 and how that "God's hand his raised in his anger" and that man devours eachother in the fire of their own wickedness.
I think the dry grass being birthed from within them and being burned by their breath reminds me of James 3:6, the tongue is a fire which can lead to a forest fire which devours the whole body.
So the burnings are fearful to those who are sinners in Zion. The description of New Jerusalem in Revelation is that nothing unclean may enter. So, if that is the case, doesn't it show why the sinners in Zion are afraid? Didn't Christ's parable say that those who are found wearing the wrong robes are to be BOUND hand and foot and thrown OUT of the wedding party? That's the fire that I believe they are afraid of. But for those in Zion who are not afraid:
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Those who "shut their eyes" (remember, Jesus told us to cut out our eyes and throw them into Gehenna so that our whole bodies don't go there) they continue to dwell on high. Their waters shall be sure. Where is the water in Revelation 20? Inside the city where NOTHING which defiles can remain.
Zion is on high. Gehenna is below.
Now Seth you know I see the end stating none are cast out but forgiven , the LORD SHALL cleanse in ONE DAY the filth of the daughter of Zion / Sion
Isaiah 33 and how you have brought up those scriptures pertaining to the NEW ZION /SION
I find that just beautiful , but you have left out the part I have so tried to express in Isaiah 33 The Judgment of God
I read those first verses referring to Rev 9 the destroyer and his followers
those under the law , below is abyss also earthly sensual and devilish , the sense of this , the self righteous and prideful and hoping to perfect themselves and making proselytes / new recruits two fold the children of hell !! that making perfect by the LAW of condemnation and ministration of death can never make perfect its the LIE OF the devil /satan to accuse any one before God , Its God whom perfects by the Lambs blood , and many use his NAME in vain , by doing them works of iniquity ..
I do believe you see the fire here as not a good thing and temporary , but I see the Fire as apart of Gods nature and we will all be on fire for God , the Light and Fire are purity to me and keep everything Holy ... and I see this as our difference Seth
I just dont see the Spiritual as anything but Light & Love and Fire to keep Holy pure and clean
the seven eyes on ONE STONE See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove
the sin of this land in a single day.
Revelation 1:4 - John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and f
rom the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Revelation 4:5 - And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were
seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which
are the seven Spirits of God.Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having
seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Jesus Christ descriptive of 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True,
and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12
His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and
His name is called The Word of God REV 1 !;18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.Jesus has those keys of hell and death and He will purge all things with the lake of fire , He is worthy !! praise His name , I know its how we see things and they can be seen differently and I do not say this is
the way it is , i can never say that , but its just how I can see anything today
33 Woe to you, O destroyer,
While you were not destroyed;
And he who is treacherous, while others did not deal treacherously with him.
As soon as you finish destroying, you will be destroyed;
As soon as you cease to deal treacherously, others will deal treacherously with you.
2 O Lord, be gracious to us; we have waited for You.
Be [a]their
strength every morning,
Our salvation also in the time of distress.
3 At the sound of the tumult peoples flee;
At the lifting up of Yourself nations disperse.
4 Your spoil is gathered as the caterpillar gathers;
As locusts rushing about men rush about on it.
5 The Lord is exalted, for He dwells on high;
He has filled Zion with justice and righteousness.
6 And He will be the [c]stability of your times,
A wealth of salvation, wisdom and knowledge;
The fear of the Lord is his treasure.
7 Behold, their brave men cry in [d]the streets,
The [e]ambassadors of peace weep bitterly.
8 The highways are desolate, [f]the traveler has ceased,
He has broken the covenant, he has despised the cities,
He has no regard for man.
9 The land mourns and pines away,
Lebanon is shamed and withers;
Sharon is like a desert plain,
And Bashan and Carmel [g]lose their foliage.
10 "Now I will arise," says the Lord,
"Now I will be exalted, now I will be lifted up.
11 "You have conceived [h]chaff, you will give birth to stubble;
My breath will consume you like a fire.
12 "The peoples will be burned to lime,
Like cut thorns which are burned in the fire.
13 "You who are far away, hear what I have done;
And you who are near, [j]acknowledge My might."
14 Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
"Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?"
15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects [l]unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty;
They will behold a far-distant land.
18 Your heart will meditate on terror:
"Where is he who counts?
Where is he who weighs?
Where is he who counts the towers?"
19 You will no longer see a fierce people,
A people of [n]unintelligible speech - which no one comprehends,
Of a stammering tongue [p]which no one understands.
20 Look upon Zion, the city of our appointed feasts;
Your eyes will see Jerusalem, an undisturbed habitation,
A tent which will not be folded;
Its stakes will never be pulled up,
Nor any of its cords be torn apart.
21 But there the majestic One, the Lord, will be for us
A place of rivers and wide canals
On which no boat with oars will go,
And on which no mighty ship will pass—
22 For the Lord is our judge,
The Lord is our lawgiver,
The Lord is our king;
He will save us—
23 Your tackle hangs slack;
It cannot hold the base of its mast firmly,
Nor spread out the sail.
Then the prey of an abundant spoil will be divided;
The lame will take the plunder.
24 And no resident will say, "I am sick";
The people who dwell there will be forgiven their iniquity.
all will be forgiven there , not cast out as the above verse states
I love these discussions and hope they help us all , Gods Spirit is on the move , no doubts He is helping us all :HeartThrob:
QuoteI do believe you see the fire here as not a good thing and temporary , but I see the Fire as apart of Gods nature and we will all be on fire for God , the Light and Fire are purity to me and keep everything Holy ... and I see this as our difference Seth
Well "bad" and "good" carry some baggage. Do you think God can use "bad" things for a good purpose? Didn't he use the Babylonian captivity to bring repentance to Jerusalem?
I think the purpose of the Isaiah 33 fire causing fear with the "sinners in Zion" is made clear, that they have produced stubble, and the fire of their mouths will consume them.
I think Isaiah 33 also answers the OP about whether "believers" find themselves in the LOF. I think there is a clear distinction between "sinners in Zion" contrasted against those who "dwell on high" whose "waters are sure." If the sinners are in Zion, and they are afraid of the fire of their breath which devours the stubble that they produce themselves, those who are not sinners in Zion don't need to worry. If Revelation says that "nothing unclean may enter" then that explains why Jesus said that "not all who say Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but those who do the will of my father in heaven."
I think it also gives some light as two why the kingdom of God is compared to a net which captures both good and bad fish, and why there are right and wrong garments in the wedding party, and why the wheat grow with the tares. The sinners in Zion, if they birth dry grass ought to be afraid because fire burns dry grass. It all brings me back to the younger son receiving and inheritance but then leaving his father's place, and going out to be humbled by his own actions.
THERE is where I see the purification aspect of the LOF. THERE is where I see the purification aspect of Babylonian captivity.Early in Isaiah 33 he says the destroyer will judge, then be destroyed himself. So, I do see God using captivity to bring humility, then getting rid of the captivity. I am not saying that LOF has no refining aspects about it. I believe it results in THIRST and then obedience to drink the WATER.
But when Jesus says that they will be "BOUND HAND AND FOOT" he is talking about CAPTIVITY.
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 09:20:20 PM
QuoteI do believe you see the fire here as not a good thing and temporary , but I see the Fire as apart of Gods nature and we will all be on fire for God , the Light and Fire are purity to me and keep everything Holy ... and I see this as our difference Seth
Well "bad" and "good" carry some baggage. Do you think God can use "bad" things for a good purpose? Didn't he use the Babylonian captivity to bring repentance to Jerusalem?
I think the purpose of the Isaiah 33 fire causing fear with the "sinners in Zion" is made clear, that they have produced stubble, and the fire of their mouths will consume them.
I think Isaiah 33 also answers the OP about whether "believers" find themselves in the LOF. I think there is a clear distinction between "sinners in Zion" contrasted against those who "dwell on high" whose "waters are sure." If the sinners are in Zion, and they are afraid of the fire of their breath which devours the stubble that they produce themselves, those who are not sinners in Zion don't need to worry. If Revelation says that "nothing unclean may enter" then that explains why Jesus said that "not all who say Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but those who do the will of my father in heaven."
I think it also gives some light as two why the kingdom of God is compared to a net which captures both good and bad fish, and why there are right and wrong garments in the wedding party, and why the wheat grow with the tares. The sinners in Zion, if they birth dry grass ought to be afraid because fire burns dry grass. It all brings me back to the younger son receiving and inheritance but then leaving his father's place, and going out to be humbled by his own actions.
THERE is where I see the purification aspect of the LOF. THERE is where I see the purification aspect of Babylonian captivity.
Early in Isaiah 33 he says the destroyer will judge, then be destroyed himself. So, I do see God using captivity to bring humility, then getting rid of the captivity. I am not saying that LOF has no refining aspects about it. I believe it results in THIRST and then obedience to drink the WATER.
But when Jesus says that they will be "BOUND HAND AND FOOT" he is talking about CAPTIVITY.
Thank you , glad you brought this out Seth !!
I agree with the good and bad fish in the nets ,
but I really think we see differently in the sense of this ,
I see the good and bad fish in each and everyone of us , not a good fish and a bad fish as separate peoples /fish
I see the separation as something that happens to each and everyone of us
the reason I feel this way is because all in Adam die , being the day we eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil we are as dead already though we live in moral bodies because of the Day we eat we surly die
I know this is off topic , but Jesus says make the tree good and its fruit good or corrupt , a tree is known by its fruit , so making good is
having the mind of Christ something , I believe only Jesus can do , but we have to desire Him and obey Him and that only comes when the Lord God writes the laws in our hearts , we cannot do this on our own
look at the examples of failures the disciples and even as apostles struggled with
This grace of God is for those trying and have acknowledged Him as their KING , how do we deny him ?
By not doing as He asks us too , Love God and one another as ourselves
how easy is it for the wrath of man to emerge in any one of us ? , it does not work the righteousness of God
Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God
Here is the thing Seth , does Paul mean here and now or some other age ? I really believe this is where some think now and some believe later and it does bring divisions in Christ :sigh:
20Therefore,
we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Some believe Jesus is not here yet nor formed and others believe He is here Now and making all things new with the heavenly realm open
I do believe there is an invisible realm that is now and no man can know it , but only by the Holy Spirit dwelling within a man will he know God
though Jesus Christ ...
QuoteI see the good and bad fish in each and everyone of us , not a good fish and a bad fish as separate peoples /fish
I see the separation as something that happens to each and everyone of us
the reason I feel this way is because all in Adam die , being the day we eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil we are as dead already though we live in moral bodies because of the Day we eat we surly die
I believe we do live in mortal bodies but we are not BOUND to do the things that the mortal body wants us to do (by influence also of the Devil). Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death, that we may serve in newness of the Spirit. I believe that at the end, the Lord will "sever the just from among the wicked" who don't simply have a carnal nature, but MIND the things of the flesh.
There is a HUGE difference between having a carnal body and a carnal nature and MINDING those things by walking according to the flesh. I think what is being said in scripture is that those who profess belief in Christ but persisting MINDING the things of the flesh and walking in the flesh will be cut off from the those who do not.
Those who rape, murder, steal, love a lie etc, will be severed from the just and shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But I believe that the purpose of the kingdom of God will be to receive them all back when they repent (bow and confess) and forsake their sin.
Quotewe cannot do this on our own
I agree and this gets to the sovereignty of God in preserving his elect. God will give the strength needed to his elect not to be deceived of the Devil for God's elect cannot be sifted.
Quote20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Some believe Jesus is not here yet nor formed and others believe He is here Now and making all things new with the heavenly realm open
I believe there is a continuing process culminating with death being destroyed and all men being saved. But death has not yet been destroyed, and eventually the second death itself will be destroyed when it's purpose as the "cup of wine of God's wrath" (which I believe means being turned over to Babylon) is completed.
I don't think that all the warnings to the church about not being cut off can be internalized. I believe there will be a separation of people within Zion.
I just want to reiterate that I don't believe having a carnal nature is the same as being carnally MINDED (as defined in Romans 8). Those who walk according to the flesh produce death. Those who walk according to the Spirit produce both life and peace. There is no peace for those who walk according to the flesh, nor life. This is true even though every person has a carnal nature.
I believe the purpose of the Spirit is to break ties with the carnal nature so that we are not in slavery to it. This cannot be done by the Law but only the Spirit.
Romans 8
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the DEEDS of the body, ye shall live.
Notice...you shall be dead spiritually if you pursue the things of the flesh, not just because you are tempted. If you crucify the lusts and desires of the flesh, you will be ALIVE. Life is found in how we respond to temptation not in just being tempted.
You don't have to consider yourself dead unless you fail to mortify the deeds of the body. That is why I disagree that we are all still dead in Adam. That's only the case if we follow the flesh, and do the things it tempts us to do. The wages of sin is death. Wages come AFTER the work.
Quote from: rosered on September 10, 2014, 09:09:29 PM
I do believe you see the fire here as not a good thing and temporary , but I see the Fire as apart of Gods nature and we will all be on fire for God , the Light and Fire are purity to me and keep everything Holy ... and I see this as our difference Seth
10 "Now I will arise," says the Lord,
"Now I will be exalted, now I will be lifted up.
11 "You have conceived [h]chaff, you will give birth to stubble;
My breath will consume you like a fire.
12 "The peoples will be burned to lime,
Like cut thorns which are burned in the fire.
13 "You who are far away, hear what I have done;
And you who are near, [j]acknowledge My might."
14 Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
"Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?"
15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects [l]unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty;
They will behold a far-distant land.
Rose,
I believe that you are trying to communicate that, although the sinners and godless tremble and are terrified at the fire, there are those who actually dwell with that devouring fire (God), that continual burning, which would mean that the very same fire is experienced by both the godly and the ungodly. This is something the ancient sages, as well as the ancient eastern churches have taught for thousands of years.
This passage...
"
Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?"15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects [l]unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights...
is thematically linked to Psalm 15 and 24, where David wrote:
Yahweh, who shall dwell in your sanctuary? Who shall live on your holy hill?
He who walks blamelessly, does what is right, and speaks truth in his heart;
He who doesn't slander with his tongue, nor does evil to his friend, nor casts slurs against his fellow man;
(Psa 15:1-3)
Who may ascend to YHWH's hill? Who may stand in his holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart;
who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood,
and has not sworn deceitfully.
He shall receive a blessing from Yahweh, righteousness from the God of his salvation.
(Psa 24:3-5)
YHWH's hill is the experiencing of his presence as a consuming fire that continually burns, but it's experience is similar to that of the three Hebrews in the furnace, as that which does not hurt them or overcome them, for they have overcome and, as fire themselves, cannot be hurt by what is their own substance...fire added to fire just makes a bigger fire. This same fire which flows from the throne of God is also depicted as water because those who are being burned by it, overcome in their own love of darkness and sin, always have opened before them the opportunity to drink of that water for life, and they too will eventually experience the fire, when all is burned away that is consumable in them, as the light and comfort it also portrays, which we now as believers have opportunity to participate in in this life.
Ronen
Even if the fire devouring the sinners of Zion was God himself (which I don't think it is saying in Isaiah 33), but even so, I don't believe that represents the Lake of Fire.
The lake of fire is OUTSIDE the gates of Jerusalem in Revelation 20. So, just as fire represents God, and fire represents wickedness, when I compare the images in Revelation 20 and 14, I see that God has chosen not to represent his elect as fire in that scripture, but to contrast it against the fire of Gehenna OUTSIDE the city. I think Christ's copious use of a fire which is OUTSIDE the wedding party to which man is to be "bound hand and foot" and thrown into is a reference to Isaiah 9.
Wickedness is OUTSIDE the city (for nothing unclear may enter). Water is INSIDE the city where God dwells. So, I agree, the sinners of Zion will not dwell with God. They will be bound hand and foot and thrown into the "outer darkness."
Is anything outside of God? Remember, all of these descriptions of realities are done in ways we can understand, but cannot be pressed so literally so as to destroy the reality. For if God truly is a being sitting on a literal throne in a place called heaven, then everything, including the throne he is sitting on, is outside of him.
1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 11:27:56 PM
1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Exactly my point brother. There is nothing outside of him.
Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 11:32:40 PM
Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Yes, and this experience of outer darkness is not outside of the God whom heaven and the heaven of heaven cannot contain. Even the darkness which is fallen man's experience, is seen by the all seeing God, for even that darkness is light to him.
There is no darkness in God whatsoever. Those who are In outer darkness do not have the water of life. They are in death. That's why the Spirit and the Bride preach to them.
New Jerusalam is not just God, but God dwelling among his people. Outside are murderers liars etc. Those things produce death. New Jerusalem provides the water of life.
But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief;[a] on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, it is clear what sort of people you should be in holy conduct and godliness 12 as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming[c] of the day of God. The heavens will be on fire and be dissolved because of it, and the elements will melt with the heat. 13 But based on His promise, we wait for the new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell.
We work daily in the elements with the elements.
If all the elements melt and are dissolved how can we prove our work.
Are churches made of elements?
It is just AWESOME that The Father will in the End.... WILL have all His children, the obedient and the disobedient, saved [sōzō] - heal[ed], preserve[ed], save[d], be (make) whole. Such LOVE... amid all the ugly that is going on in just my generation. Is just AWESOME LOVE! :2c:
He Is RISEN! :dsunny:
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 10, 2014, 11:38:03 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 11:32:40 PM
Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Yes, and this experience of outer darkness is not outside of the God whom heaven and the heaven of heaven cannot contain. Even the darkness which is fallen man's experience, is seen by the all seeing God, for even that darkness is light to him.
Psalms 139 11If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night," 12Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You. 13For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb
Dajomaco. What did John see after he saw a new heaven and new earth? :Chinscratch:
Quote from: rosered on September 10, 2014, 11:44:34 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 10, 2014, 11:38:03 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 11:32:40 PM
Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Yes, and this experience of outer darkness is not outside of the God whom heaven and the heaven of heaven cannot contain. Even the darkness which is fallen man's experience, is seen by the all seeing God, for even that darkness is light to him.
Psalms 139 11If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night," 12Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You. 13For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb
And yet there is no darkness within him. Not making that up.
Isaiah 50
10 Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant,
that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
11
Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks:
walk in the light of YOUR fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.
Walk in the darkness with regard to MAN'S light. There is no such darkness in God as that which is lightness to a man according to the fire that man kindles.
And all of those, both being IN the city, and being OUTSIDE the city, is not speaking about those who are in God and those who are out of God, as though God is confined to the space we call the New Jerusalem, for he is depicted in type and shadow as the ENTIRE promised land, not just Jerusalem. The darkness people experience is the experience of those in God, in whom they live and move and have their being, yet do so in the darkness of those who's eyes are closed to the reality. This is not a literal darkness in God, for none exists in him.
This is why Yeshua commissioned Paul to 'open the eyes of the Gentiles, turning them from DARKNESS', a darkness caused by closed eyes, a perception, not a true reality.
Part of the promised land is GEHENNA.
God's people reside within the Gates of Jerusalem. Outside is a fire. Jerusalem is the bride of Christ. The "sinners of Zion" cannot reside there. They are in outer darkness AS COMPARED to the light which the tree of life provides.
The idea that everyone is already in God, which I will leave for another discussion, does not address whether or not the fire of the LOF is linked to Isaiah 9 or not. Sin produces DEATH no matter what. The water of life is internal to the bride not external. At least not the way John describes it.
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 11:53:02 PM
Part of the promised land is GEHENNA.
God's people reside within the Gates of Jerusalem. Outside is a fire. Jerusalem is the bride of Christ. The "sinners of Zion" cannot reside there. They are in outer darkness AS COMPARED to the light which the tree of life provides.
Yes, Gehenna is also an expression of God, depicted as such for his own purpose. According to the pictures presented in the types and shadows, I agree, and the early believers also, that they cannot reside in the New Jerusalem while in that state. This is a depicted picture helping us to understand though, and not literal places and locations, some of which are in God, some of which are not. These are all speaking about experiences, all in God, as I have come to understand it. I am fine and know perfectly well that you see things differently brother, but I am simply sharing what I am to relate to Rose and anyone else who sees it similarly to myself.
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 11:48:24 PM
Quote from: rosered on September 10, 2014, 11:44:34 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 10, 2014, 11:38:03 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 11:32:40 PM
Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Yes, and this experience of outer darkness is not outside of the God whom heaven and the heaven of heaven cannot contain. Even the darkness which is fallen man's experience, is seen by the all seeing God, for even that darkness is light to him.
Psalms 139 11If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night," 12Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You. 13For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb
And yet there is no darkness within him. Not making that up.
Isaiah 50
10 Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
11 Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of YOUR fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.
Walk in the darkness with regard to MAN'S light. There is no such darkness in God as that which is lightness to a man according to the fire that man kindles.
Hi Seth , you I do understand if that light be darkness how great is the darkness , the Light of the eye that must remain single or that light is deceiving the believer
But I believe a few of us are talking that nothing is impossible for God and is all in all
and yet you are giving us the sequence in which God will be all in all
and both ways are right , but have just skipped though the process ? :friendstu:
the Lake of Fire has very little said about it , Just as Micah gave those verses in TWO places 1 Cor 3 and Rev 20
it has to do with death and we know hell/ Gehenna and death are cast into the lake of fire ?
and you have said its Gehenna outside the gates of Jerusalem
yes but are you are calling the lake of fire, Gehenna, a specific place ?
I may internalize a lot , ingesting the scriptures
For this i apologize to you
I am listening to the best of my ability :HeartThrob:
As an understanding of what I mean, I could put it this way.
All of that which is in the promised land is bound up in my experience of God and his Son, the tangible reality of that land.
If I experience a hatred for God and act wickedly in a love of darkness, then my experience of God here as well as in the future could be likened to Gehinnom, or the marshes and swamps in the Dead Sea region.
If I experience periods of wondering where God is, and being in need of hearing from him, then my experience of God could be likened to the Arabah wilderness.
If I experience times of closeness with God, peace and communion, what some would call 'mountaintop experiences', then my experience of God could be likened to Jerusalem.
If I experience refreshment and tranquility with God, then my experience of God could be likened to the waters coming from Mount Herman.
If I experience times of overflowing abundance, then my experience of God could be likened to the overflowing Jordan river during the rainy season.
If I experience times of apprehending and understanding more of our Savior and Master Yeshua through meditation and study, I can liken that to the iron and copper in the hills waiting to be found.
This is the sum of what I see as being in the New Jerusalem, being in outer darkness, being in Gehenna, the lake of fire, the holy mountain, or any of the other myriads of pictures Father has painted for us. These are the experiences of the same God, expressed in the many varied ways.
Psa 18:11 He maketh darkness His secret place, Round about Him His tabernacle, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2 I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust.
Psa 91:3 For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.
Just a thought :Peace2:
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 10, 2014, 11:50:44 PM
And all of those, both being IN the city, and being OUTSIDE the city, is not speaking about those who are in God and those who are out of God, as though God is confined to the space we call the New Jerusalem, for he is depicted in type and shadow as the ENTIRE promised land, not just Jerusalem. The darkness people experience is the experience of those in God, in whom they live and move and have their being, yet do so in the darkness of those who's eyes are closed to the reality. This is not a literal darkness in God, for none exists in him.
This is why Yeshua commissioned Paul to 'open the eyes of the Gentiles, turning them from DARKNESS', a darkness caused by closed eyes, a perception, not a true reality.
:dsunny:
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 11, 2014, 12:21:44 AM
As an understanding of what I mean, I could put it this way.
All of that which is in the promised land is bound up in my experience of God and his Son, the tangible reality of that land.
If I experience a hatred for God and act wickedly in a love of darkness, then my experience of God here as well as in the future could be likened to Gehinnom, or the marshes and swamps in the Dead Sea region.
If I experience periods of wondering where God is, and being in need of hearing from him, then my experience of God could be likened to the Arabah wilderness.
If I experience times of closeness with God, peace and communion, what some would call 'mountaintop experiences', then my experience of God could be likened to Jerusalem.
If I experience refreshment and tranquility with God, then my experience of God could be likened to the waters coming from Mount Herman.
If I experience times of overflowing abundance, then my experience of God could be likened to the overflowing Jordan river during the rainy season.
If I experience times of apprehending and understanding more of our Savior and Master Yeshua through meditation and study, I can liken that to the iron and copper in the hills waiting to be found.
This is the sum of what I see as being in the New Jerusalem, being in outer darkness, being in Gehenna, the lake of fire, the holy mountain, or any of the other myriads of pictures Father has painted for us. These are the experiences of the same God, expressed in the many varied ways.
:thumbsup:
and now..ALL THINGS ARE YOURS [1 Cor 3;22] whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world
or life or death or the present or the future-ALL ARE YOURS,and you are of Christ and Christ
is of God.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 12:23:47 AM
Psa 18:11 He maketh darkness His secret place, Round about Him His tabernacle, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2 I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust.
Psa 91:3 For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.
Just a thought :Peace2:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 11:41:25 PM
There is no darkness in God whatsoever. Those who are In outer darkness do not have the water of life. They are in death. That's why the Spirit and the Bride preach to them.
New Jerusalam is not just God, but God dwelling among his people. Outside are murderers liars etc. Those things produce death. New Jerusalem provides the water of life.
:iagree:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 12:23:47 AM
Psa 18:11 He maketh darkness His secret place, Round about Him His tabernacle, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2 I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust.
Psa 91:3 For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.
Just a thought :Peace2:
Darkness as compared to light of man. But when Apostle John says that "he is the light, and no darkness is in him" I think he is talking about a different kind of darkness.
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 10, 2014, 11:59:08 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 10, 2014, 11:53:02 PM
Part of the promised land is GEHENNA.
God's people reside within the Gates of Jerusalem. Outside is a fire. Jerusalem is the bride of Christ. The "sinners of Zion" cannot reside there. They are in outer darkness AS COMPARED to the light which the tree of life provides.
Yes, Gehenna is also an expression of God, depicted as such for his own purpose. According to the pictures presented in the types and shadows, I agree, and the early believers also, that they cannot reside in the New Jerusalem while in that state. This is a depicted picture helping us to understand though, and not literal places and locations, some of which are in God, some of which are not. These are all speaking about experiences, all in God, as I have come to understand it. I am fine and know perfectly well that you see things differently brother, but I am simply sharing what I am to relate to Rose and anyone else who sees it similarly to myself.
Thank you , much appreciated , That is as I see it the HOLY SPIRIT is not bound to anything either
But there is a process and some may experience little in this life and some may experience much , many are called but few are chosen , and this is for another discussion , elect called
are the elect special and other poor suffering folks are not? , this is hard for me to understand really :sigh:
yet salvation will come to them by Jesus Christ in the end ,but Peter mentions making your election sure 2Peter 1
Why is it hard to see the elect as special? I ask that as someone who does not claim to be the elect. But I think clearly that God has set aside unto himself a peculiar people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood.
Didn't Jacob have a dream about the grain bowing down and was admonished by his own father?
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 11, 2014, 12:21:44 AM
As an understanding of what I mean, I could put it this way.
All of that which is in the promised land is bound up in my experience of God and his Son, the tangible reality of that land.
If I experience a hatred for God and act wickedly in a love of darkness, then my experience of God here as well as in the future could be likened to Gehinnom, or the marshes and swamps in the Dead Sea region.
If I experience periods of wondering where God is, and being in need of hearing from him, then my experience of God could be likened to the Arabah wilderness.
If I experience times of closeness with God, peace and communion, what some would call 'mountaintop experiences', then my experience of God could be likened to Jerusalem.
If I experience refreshment and tranquility with God, then my experience of God could be likened to the waters coming from Mount Herman.
If I experience times of overflowing abundance, then my experience of God could be likened to the overflowing Jordan river during the rainy season.
If I experience times of apprehending and understanding more of our Savior and Master Yeshua through meditation and study, I can liken that to the iron and copper in the hills waiting to be found.
This is the sum of what I see as being in the New Jerusalem, being in outer darkness, being in Gehenna, the lake of fire, the holy mountain, or any of the other myriads of pictures Father has painted for us. These are the experiences of the same God, expressed in the many varied ways.
:thumbsup: Yes all things !!!
Quotend now..ALL THINGS ARE YOURS [1 Cor 3;22] whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world
or life or death or the present or the future-ALL ARE YOURS,and you are of Christ and Christ
is of God.
:thumbsup: all them experiences are apart of the works of God though Christ changing us all :HeartThrob:
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 11, 2014, 12:21:44 AM
As an understanding of what I mean, I could put it this way.
All of that which is in the promised land is bound up in my experience of God and his Son, the tangible reality of that land.
If I experience a hatred for God and act wickedly in a love of darkness, then my experience of God here as well as in the future could be likened to Gehinnom, or the marshes and swamps in the Dead Sea region.
If I experience periods of wondering where God is, and being in need of hearing from him, then my experience of God could be likened to the Arabah wilderness.
If I experience times of closeness with God, peace and communion, what some would call 'mountaintop experiences', then my experience of God could be likened to Jerusalem.
If I experience refreshment and tranquility with God, then my experience of God could be likened to the waters coming from Mount Herman.
If I experience times of overflowing abundance, then my experience of God could be likened to the overflowing Jordan river during the rainy season.
If I experience times of apprehending and understanding more of our Savior and Master Yeshua through meditation and study, I can liken that to the iron and copper in the hills waiting to be found.
This is the sum of what I see as being in the New Jerusalem, being in outer darkness, being in Gehenna, the lake of fire, the holy mountain, or any of the other myriads of pictures Father has painted for us. These are the experiences of the same God, expressed in the many varied ways.
Well I definitely see the source as being God. For as Peter put it, when he said that "they shall utterly perish in their own corruption" he likened that to the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah of which fire came from heaven. Same thing in Romans 1, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven....he turned them over to a corrupt mind to receive in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Babylon is a gold cup in the Lord's hand.
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2014, 12:37:14 AM
Why is it hard to see the elect as special? I ask that as someone who does not claim to be the elect. But I think clearly that God has set aside unto himself a peculiar people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood.
Didn't Jacob have a dream about the grain bowing down and was admonished by his own father?
1 Peter 1:2, one becomes elect through the blood of Jesus Christ. by faith in Him
ok I retract Seth sorry :sigh:
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 10, 2014, 11:50:44 PM
And all of those, both being IN the city, and being OUTSIDE the city, is not speaking about those who are in God and those who are out of God, as though God is confined to the space we call the New Jerusalem, for he is depicted in type and shadow as the ENTIRE promised land, not just Jerusalem. The darkness people experience is the experience of those in God, in whom they live and move and have their being, yet do so in the darkness of those who's eyes are closed to the reality. This is not a literal darkness in God, for none exists in him.
This is why Yeshua commissioned Paul to 'open the eyes of the Gentiles, turning them from DARKNESS', a darkness caused by closed eyes, a perception, not a true reality.
Right. That is why people in the LOF are tormented in the presence of the lamb. But they do not see him. They are in darkness. They are staggered drunk on the wine of the wrath of God which he gives to Babylon, and Babylon will topple.
Quote from: Roseok I retract Seth sorry :sigh:
Not a problem. Just a discussion. :friendstu:
all mankind is elected to be formed in 'our image'..but each in his own order........
LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.....but that the choosing and calling not be dependant
on anything other then God's choice..the first Adam..of whom sin entered was rejected..but
the last Adam[Christ image] was called chosen and elected...each in his order......
and as we have all bore the image of the corrupt one[Adam whom through sin entered and
death through sin] so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt one.
Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2014, 12:46:48 AM
all mankind is elected to be formed in 'our image'..but each in his own order........
LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.....but that the choosing and calling not be dependant
on anything other then God's choice..the first Adam..of whom sin entered was rejected..but
the last Adam[Christ image] was called chosen and elected...each in his order......
and as we have all bore the image of the corrupt one[Adam whom through sin entered and
death through sin] so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt one.
:iagree:
Hi Rose, I just wanted to clarify some points
Quote
But I believe a few of us are talking that nothing is impossible for God and is all in all
and yet you are giving us the sequence in which God will be all in all
and both ways are right , but have just skipped though the process ? :friendstu:
Maybe that is the case. I understand how people understand how God is already all in all. I have my own way of understanding it. But I think, hopefully, we all agree that God will be all in all through an "each man unto his order" process.
Quotethe Lake of Fire has very little said about it , Just as Micah gave those verses in TWO places 1 Cor 3 and Rev 20
Don't forget
Revelation 14. And I think these are are references to Old Testament scriptures which can provide explanation of what is being signified.
Also, as I have been saying, it's important not only to look at the small bit about the LOF, but the great amount of information about New Jerusalem IN CONTRAST to the LOF.
Quoteit has to do with death and we know hell/ Gehenna and death are cast into the lake of fire ?
It's important to note that HADES is cast into the LOF. So I see it as death and the grave cast into Gehenna. And I see that in relation to how Babylon is a cup in God's hand, and makes the nations drunk, but Babylon itself is falling, falling, falling until it will be no more.
Quoteand you have said its Gehenna outside the gates of Jerusalem
yes but are you are calling the lake of fire, Gehenna, a specific place ?
No definitely not. I am saying they are symbols. Starting with New Jerusalem, it symbolizes the people of God as God resides in his people through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Gehenna I believe to represent the opposite. It is the wine of God's wrath (not the water of life) which causes men to make themselves naked that God will expose the nakedness. I see it as a Prodigal Son experience, until repentance comes unto life.
QuoteI may internalize a lot , ingesting the scriptures
For this i apologize to you
I am listening to the best of my ability :HeartThrob:
You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. I have enjoyed discussing this with you.
confession time.....when I hear people saying' but we are the elect" as if they are somehow
better then other men..I WANT TO PUKE!! it's the free gift..the seed given unto us..or
we would be just like Sodom and Gomorrha.
none of us are any better...we just are in a better covenant...and that not of ourselves...
on top of this you have arrogant usurpers men without the spirit arrogantly ,not called of God,
but in fact called of satan and men,who has transformed himself into an angel of light with a
blasphemous gospel..that is in fact darkness[if the light that be in you be darkness,how great
that darkness!
therefore, I am put off by any appearance of boasting..sanctimoniousness..self-righteousness
etc and etc. that's where I'm at.....
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2014, 12:58:10 AM
Hi Rose, I just wanted to clarify some points
Quote
But I believe a few of us are talking that nothing is impossible for God and is all in all
and yet you are giving us the sequence in which God will be all in all
and both ways are right , but have just skipped though the process ? :friendstu:
Maybe that is the case. I understand how people understand how God is already all in all. I have my own way of understanding it. But I think, hopefully, we all agree that God will be all in all through an "each man unto his order" process.
Quotethe Lake of Fire has very little said about it , Just as Micah gave those verses in TWO places 1 Cor 3 and Rev 20
Don't forget Revelation 14. And I think these are are references to Old Testament scriptures which can provide explanation of what is being signified.
Also, as I have been saying, it's important not only to look at the small bit about the LOF, but the great amount of information about New Jerusalem IN CONTRAST to the LOF.
Quoteit has to do with death and we know hell/ Gehenna and death are cast into the lake of fire ?
It's important to note that HADES is cast into the LOF. So I see it as death and the grave cast into Gehenna. And I see that in relation to how Babylon is a cup in God's hand, and makes the nations drunk, but Babylon itself is falling, falling, falling until it will be no more.
Quoteand you have said its Gehenna outside the gates of Jerusalem
yes but are you are calling the lake of fire, Gehenna, a specific place ?
No definitely not. I am saying they are symbols. Starting with New Jerusalem, it symbolizes the people of God as God resides in his people through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Gehenna I believe to represent the opposite. It is the wine of God's wrath (not the water of life) which causes men to make themselves naked that God will expose the nakedness. I see it as a Prodigal Son experience, until repentance comes unto life.
QuoteI may internalize a lot , ingesting the scriptures
For this i apologize to you
I am listening to the best of my ability :HeartThrob:
You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. I have enjoyed discussing this with you.
:iagree: and yes indeed the fulfillment of Babylon !!
Thanks Seth , It has been a wonderful discussion and got a lot out of it from everyone
I love your perseverance brother ! its refreshing
Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2014, 01:11:05 AM
confession time.....when I hear people saying' but we are the elect" as if they are somehow
better then other men..I WANT TO PUKE!! it's the free gift..the seed given unto us..or
we would be just like Sodom and Gomorrha.
none of us are any better...we just are in a better covenant...and that not of ourselves...
on top of this you have arrogant usurpers men without the spirit arrogantly ,not called of God,
but in fact called of satan and men,who has transformed himself into an angel of light with a
blasphemous gospel..that is in fact darkness[if the light that be in you be darkness,how great
that darkness!
therefore, I am put off by any appearance of boasting..sanctimoniousness..self-righteousness
etc and etc. that's where I'm at.....
It's like I always say, It's presumptuous to claim a crown before finishing the race. :laughing7: But, I don't think it is wrong to hope for the elect. After all, Peter says to make your calling and election sure. I hope I have not come across as claiming a crown before finishing the race, because that's not my intention, and if so, it's accidental.
No problem, Rose. I love discussing it with other brothers and sisters as I feel I learn something new every time I talk to you guys.
Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2014, 01:11:05 AM
confession time.....when I hear people saying' but we are the elect" as if they are somehow
better then other men..I WANT TO PUKE!! it's the free gift..the seed given unto us..or
we would be just like Sodom and Gomorrha.
none of us are any better...we just are in a better covenant...and that not of ourselves...
on top of this you have arrogant usurpers men without the spirit arrogantly ,not called of God,
but in fact called of satan and men,who has transformed himself into an angel of light with a
blasphemous gospel..that is in fact darkness[if the light that be in you be darkness,how great
that darkness!
therefore, I am put off by any appearance of boasting..sanctimoniousness..self-righteousness
etc and etc. that's where I'm at.....
:iagree: I do believe they are of the Babylon spirit and will be dealt with justly
God is fair and just and Christ died for all !!!
I come out of her gladly sista , that was a cup of suffering never want to experience again :sigh:!!! but that is another topic for another time God willing :HeartThrob:
I'm sensitized to it,Seth. and didn't mean to put you down in any way. :friendstu: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2014, 01:22:56 AM
No problem, Rose. I love discussing it with other brothers and sisters as I feel I learn something new every time I talk to you guys.
Yes when the Holy Spirit moves we all get to breath ''fresh '' again Lord revive us again , I have been in a dry spell for a bit
Psalms 85
...5Will You be angry with us forever? Will You prolong Your anger to all generations?
6Will You not Yourself revive us again,
That Your people may rejoice in You?
7Show us Your lovingkindness, O LORD, And grant us Your salvation
Quote from: rosered on September 11, 2014, 01:30:38 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2014, 01:22:56 AM
No problem, Rose. I love discussing it with other brothers and sisters as I feel I learn something new every time I talk to you guys.
Yes when the Holy Spirit moves we all get to breath "fresh " again Lord revive us again , I have been in a dry spell for a bit
Psalms 85
...5Will You be angry with us forever? Will You prolong Your anger to all generations?
6Will You not Yourself revive us again,
That Your people may rejoice in You?
7Show us Your lovingkindness, O LORD, And grant us Your salvation
"I have been in a dry spell for a bit " Rose that is a wonderful place to be! Fill my cup Lord!
It is very hard, near impossible to fill a filled cup.
Gen 37:24 And they took him, and cast him into a pit: and
the pit was empty, there was no water in it.
Gen 37:25 And they sat down to eat bread: and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and, behold, a company of Ishmeelites came from Gilead with their camels bearing spicery and balm and myrrh, going to carry it down to Egypt.
Gen 37:26 And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood?
Gen 37:27 Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content.
What became of Joseph?
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 02:42:25 AM
Quote from: rosered on September 11, 2014, 01:30:38 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2014, 01:22:56 AM
No problem, Rose. I love discussing it with other brothers and sisters as I feel I learn something new every time I talk to you guys.
Yes when the Holy Spirit moves we all get to breath "fresh " again Lord revive us again , I have been in a dry spell for a bit
Psalms 85
...5Will You be angry with us forever? Will You prolong Your anger to all generations?
6Will You not Yourself revive us again,
That Your people may rejoice in You?
7Show us Your lovingkindness, O LORD, And grant us Your salvation
"I have been in a dry spell for a bit " Rose that is a wonderful place to be! Fill my cup Lord!
It is very hard, near impossible to fill a filled cup.
Gen 37:24 And they took him, and cast him into a pit: and the pit was empty, there was no water in it.
Gen 37:25 And they sat down to eat bread: and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and, behold, a company of Ishmeelites came from Gilead with their camels bearing spicery and balm and myrrh, going to carry it down to Egypt.
Gen 37:26 And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood?
Gen 37:27 Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content.
What became of Joseph?
Thank you Micah :friendstu: You are right , the Lord must fill !
Joseph become very useful in saving the Israelites , helping his brothers , during the great famine of that time .
What they meant for evil God made it good :icon_flower:
To quote an Pentecostal expression.......AIN'T GOD GOOD! :dsunny:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2014, 12:31:47 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 12:23:47 AM
Psa 18:11 He maketh darkness His secret place, Round about Him His tabernacle, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2 I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust.
Psa 91:3 For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.
Just a thought :Peace2:
Darkness as compared to light of man. But when Apostle John says that "he is the light, and no darkness is in him" I think he is talking about a different kind of darkness.
Col 1:16 because in him were the
all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and
those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, Col 1:17
and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.[/b]
I guess Apostle John stands corrected.
what is darker then the blindness of men.....surely you are a God who hides himself.......
thinking of the HOH with the curtained off area..the cherub wings and shekinah.....
the revelation of Christ is also the revealing of the Father unto us....the opening of our blind
eyes
I agree. I believe there is a difference between God's all encompassing nature, his corporate church as the body of Christ, and his personal identity as the light and in him is no darkness.
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2014, 05:18:18 PM
I guess Apostle John stands corrected.
The Apostle John needs no correction.
Psalm 139
Rotherham(i) 12 Even darkness, will not conceal from thee,—but, night, like day, will shine,
So is the darkness, as the light!12 Even darkness, it is not darkening to You,
And the night, as the day, is giving light;
as Darkness is as light.(Concordant)
1 John 1
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
-------
Psalm 135
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell (Sheol - the grave), behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness (of the grave) shall cover me; even the night shall be light (God) about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Seems to me that Psalm 135 is talking about how God regards death as nothing which cannot be eradicated by his own light. If God is with David in the grave, then though he may be dead, that darkness is as light to God because God holds the power over death, and so even that darkness is as light to me.
I see nothing in Psalm 135 that says that there is darkness in God which is considered as light to him. The darkness surrounds DAVID.
imo there are many things for which darkness is a metaphor.
One is wickedness.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Another is mystery.
6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
He gives wisdom to wise men
And knowledge to men of understanding.
"It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things;
He knows what is in the darkness,
And the light dwells with Him.
Another is chaos/judgment
Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the Lord.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Another is death.
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death"
Another is stubborn ignorance.
Then I saw that wisdom excells folly, as far as light excells darkness.
"If you were blind you would have no sin. Because you say you see, your sin remains."
Another is hatred
The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
When John says "God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all", he is speaking of love and righteousness(light) versus hate and wickedness(darkness).
Praising that appearing of the Holy city..with the light of love coming/shining forth into
the darkness,from it's gates...saying Come!
The hounds of hell,hear thier bay
over distant fields they lay.
Listen..as they seek you out....with nostrils flared on their snout
your scent theyv'e caught..they turn your way
to seek you out where they lay
the hounds of hell are baying,hear the call of the pack
Gnashing teeth,growling throats..ears lying back
the city gate,lies ahead..and beckons with a glow
a warm embrace awaits you there,a feast a sumptous meal...
the hounds of hell..are thwarted..and quickly turn on heel.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 11, 2014, 06:57:09 PM
imo there are many things for which darkness is a metaphor.
One is wickedness.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Another is mystery.
6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
He gives wisdom to wise men
And knowledge to men of understanding.
"It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things;
He knows what is in the darkness,
And the light dwells with Him.
Another is chaos/judgment
Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the Lord.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Another is death.
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death"
Another is stubborn ignorance.
Then I saw that wisdom excells folly, as far as light excells darkness.
"If you were blind you would have no sin. Because you say you see, your sin remains."
Another is hatred
The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
When John says "God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all", he is speaking of love and righteousness(light) versus hate and wickedness(darkness).
Good stuff John :2thumbs:
The True God creates the darkness , but is NOT the darkness , but can be obscure in the sense of being difficult to understand.
God the Father , creator of all things IS IN COMPLETE CONTROL
darkness, obscurity
darkness
secret place
:iagree:
Identifying differentiations in the text is very helpful for understanding :HeartThrob:
...the more I think about the LOF judgement sounds more like a failed/corrupt priesthood judgemnt.
your'e righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisee's sadducee's....the molten sea
for the priests to wash in..symbolizing not doing your'e willwith the giftsof the ministry..but
God's......
the angels[messengers of the covenant/gospel] not keeping thier positions of authority......
surely a corrupt priesthood is an abomination? for I was hungry and you gave me nothing
to eat,naked and you did not clothe me,sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
.............
How about if I say it this way, the lake of fire is judgment and the overcomer who has already been judged by fire, those saints who will judge [1Cor.6:2] the world are in the lake of fire, for they will be like Him-Jesus- who is the JUDGE.
I believe Jesus is The Lake of Fire and the saints/overcomer/believer/elect will not be hurt by the second death.
At least that is how I understand.
I can agree with that,Micah. the many strpes and few..saved but lose your position[hurt/suffer
loss] heavier judgement on those who teach. change of a garments for the Priesthood....
etc..it just all seems to click..........
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 05:09:29 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2014, 12:31:47 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 12:23:47 AM
Psa 18:11 He maketh darkness His secret place, Round about Him His tabernacle, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2 I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust.
Psa 91:3 For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.
Just a thought :Peace2:
Darkness as compared to light of man. But when Apostle John says that "he is the light, and no darkness is in him" I think he is talking about a different kind of darkness.
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.[/b]
Yes, and these powers of darkness only receive their power and authority of darkness in the shut and blinded eyes of their subjects. This is, as I stated in an earlier post, why Yeshua sent Paul to open the eyes of these blind ones, turning them from darkness, and....thus also from the authority of the adversary. His authority is darkness, not a true darkness but one caused by one's closing their eyes and not seeing the reality. Everything being exposed and seen by the Creator, including these authorities of darkness, and knowing what this darkness truly is, dovetails perfectly with John witness of there being no darkness in him at all.
It is to me as simple as this. I have done this illustration many times with others. If I, a child of God, one who is hidden in God in Messiah, walk with my spiritual eyes open, I will be said to be walking in the light, aware of the truth, of spiritual reality. But the moment I close my eyes and walk I am still in the light, still in God, but am walking in darkness, blinded to those realities, walking in falsehood. The darkness is not in God but in my perception, caused by my closed eyes. This is what makes the most sense to me.
Ronen
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 10:35:50 PM
How about if I say it this way, the lake of fire is judgment and the overcomer who has already been judged by fire, those saints who will judge [1Cor.6:2] the world are in the lake of fire, for they will be like Him-Jesus- who is the JUDGE.
I believe Jesus is The Lake of Fire and the saints/overcomer/believer/elect will not be hurt by the second death.
At least that is how I understand.
And one of things I think we need to keep in mind is this: Although someone may not be hurt or overcome by something because they do not experience it at all, not going through it, I would ask this:
If I lived in California, and a hurricane occurred in Florida, it would be true that I was not hurt by or overcome by that hurricane, but, would it make sense for someone to say it, or write it down in a newspaper, for instance? I think anyone looking at it would think...duh, of course he was not hurt or overcome, he was nowhere near it, didn't go through it. The statement is not necessary.
To me it makes perfect sense though, if I lived in Florida, went through a hurricane and came out ok, for it to be written or said that I was not hurt or overcome by it. Such a statement being made makes the mose sense in the context of someone having experienced it differently than others, those who got hurt and overcome by it.
This to me, and the witness of the three Hebrews who were not hurt by, or overcome by, the fiery furnace heated seven times, demonstrate to me that the Father wants us to connect this together to see that our experience of Yeshua and his messengers, being in their presense, will either be one of being where you have always longed to be, in utter contentment and shalom, or, in the case of those who, at that time, want nothing to do with God, one of being where they do not want to be (having to be thrown in), in utter shame and mental anguish, such as Revelation 14 bears out.
Although I am not totally certain of this, but I have a suspicion that the saints corporately, will make up the lake of fire, along with Yeshua, as his body, judging the world. I am not sure how that all works out, but I see glimpses of it in the Prophets, along with Paul's writings.
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 11, 2014, 11:04:50 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 10:35:50 PM
How about if I say it this way, the lake of fire is judgment and the overcomer who has already been judged by fire, those saints who will judge [1Cor.6:2] the world are in the lake of fire, for they will be like Him-Jesus- who is the JUDGE.
I believe Jesus is The Lake of Fire and the saints/overcomer/believer/elect will not be hurt by the second death.
At least that is how I understand.
And one of things I think we need to keep in mind is this: Although someone may not be hurt or overcome by something because they do not experience it at all, not going through it, I would ask this:
If I lived in California, and a hurricane occurred in Florida, it would be true that I was not hurt by or overcome by that hurricane, but, would it make sense for someone to say it, or write it down in a newspaper, for instance? I think anyone looking at it would think...duh, of course he was not hurt or overcome, he was nowhere near it, didn't go through it. The statement is not necessary.
To me it makes perfect sense though, if I lived in Florida, went through a hurricane and came out ok, for it to be written or said that I was not hurt or overcome by it. Such a statement being made makes the mose sense in the context of someone having experienced it differently than others, those who got hurt and overcome by it.
This to me, and the witness of the three Hebrews who were not hurt by, or overcome by, the fiery furnace heated seven times, demonstrate to me that the Father wants us to connect this together to see that our experience of Yeshua and his messengers, being in their presense, will either be one of being where you have always longed to be, in utter contentment and shalom, or, in the case of those who, at that time, want nothing to do with God, one of being where they do not want to be (having to be thrown in), in utter shame and mental anguish, such as Revelation 14 bears out.
Although I am not totally certain of this, but I have a suspicion that the saints corporately, will make up the lake of fire, along with Yeshua, as his body, judging the world. I am not sure how that all works out, but I see glimpses of it in the Prophets, along with Paul's writings.
"Although I am not totally certain of this, but I have a suspicion that the saints corporately, will make up the lake of fire, along with Yeshua, as his body, judging the world. I am not sure how that all works out, but I see glimpses of it in the Prophets, along with Paul's writings."
Ain't that just about what I posted?
That is why I quoted you brother :). You mentioned them being in the lake of fire, and Jesus being the lake of fire. So do you also see them being the lake of fire along with Jesus; not just in it, but both being in it and being it, distinct and yet of the same substance, such as when little flames are added to a a fire?
Here is how I see the judgment of the world demonstrated among those who are in the lake of fire and are therefore experiencing wine of God's wrath, torment, darkness, death, being bound hand and foot etc.
The Spirit and the BRIDE (New Jerusalem) say "COME, all ye who are athirst drink the water of life freely." Where are they telling them to come from?
From out of the lake of fire, into the lake of fire? They are telling them to come INTO THE GATES of JERUSALEM. That is a judgment because through God's judgment, sin is exposed that it may be repented of.
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 11, 2014, 11:20:41 PM
That is why I quoted you brother :). You mentioned them being in the lake of fire, and Jesus being the lake of fire. So do you also see them being the lake of fire along with Jesus; not just in it, but both being in it and being it, distinct and yet of the same substance, such as when little flames are added to a a fire?
If I said, that those who don't fly to Florida will not be hurt of the hurricane, would that make sense?
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 11, 2014, 11:20:41 PM
That is why I quoted you brother :). You mentioned them being in the lake of fire, and Jesus being the lake of fire. So do you also see them being the lake of fire along with Jesus; not just in it, but both being in it and being it, distinct and yet of the same substance, such as when little flames are added to a a fire?
Yes.
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2014, 11:26:07 PM
Here is how I see the judgment of the world demonstrated among those who are in the lake of fire and are therefore experiencing wine of God's wrath, torment, darkness, death, being bound hand and foot etc.
The Spirit and the BRIDE (New Jerusalem) say "COME, all ye who are athirst drink the water of life freely." Where are they telling them to come from? From out of the lake of fire, into the lake of fire? They are telling them to come INTO THE GATES of JERUSALEM. That is a judgment because through God's judgment, sin is exposed that it may be repented of.
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 11, 2014, 11:20:41 PM
That is why I quoted you brother :). You mentioned them being in the lake of fire, and Jesus being the lake of fire. So do you also see them being the lake of fire along with Jesus; not just in it, but both being in it and being it, distinct and yet of the same substance, such as when little flames are added to a a fire?
If I said, that those who don't fly to Florida will not be hurt of the hurricane, would that make sense?
"Here is how I see the judgment of the world demonstrated among those who are in the lake of fire and are therefore experiencing wine of God's wrath, torment, darkness, death, being bound hand and foot etc."
So this how you accept and see the lake of fire? "bound hand and foot"?
Yes I do
Matthew 22
11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14For many are called, but few are chosen.
Matthew 13
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 11, 2014, 10:50:24 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 05:09:29 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2014, 12:31:47 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 12:23:47 AM
Psa 18:11 He maketh darkness His secret place, Round about Him His tabernacle, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2 I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust.
Psa 91:3 For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.
Just a thought :Peace2:
Darkness as compared to light of man. But when Apostle John says that "he is the light, and no darkness is in him" I think he is talking about a different kind of darkness.
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.[/b]
Yes, and these powers of darkness only receive their power and authority of darkness in the shut and blinded eyes of their subjects. This is, as I stated in an earlier post, why Yeshua sent Paul to open the eyes of these blind ones, turning them from darkness, and....thus also from the authority of the adversary. His authority is darkness, not a true darkness but one caused by one's closing their eyes and not seeing the reality. Everything being exposed and seen by the Creator, including these authorities of darkness, and knowing what this darkness truly is, dovetails perfectly with John witness of there being no darkness in him at all.
It is to me as simple as this. I have done this illustration many times with others. If I, a child of God, one who is hidden in God in Messiah, walk with my spiritual eyes open, I will be said to be walking in the light, aware of the truth, of spiritual reality. But the moment I close my eyes and walk I am still in the light, still in God, but am walking in darkness, blinded to those realities, walking in falsehood. The darkness is not in God but in my perception, caused by my closed eyes. This is what makes the most sense to me.
Ronen
I am not attempting to justify darkness that the Lord has purposed for evil and wickedness. Eph 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
But I do believe the Lord Got works with darkness. Gen. 1:2 ...... the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep,....from that darkness, which is His secret place Psa 18:11 He maketh darkness His secret place, Round about Him His tabernacle, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
From darkness He spoke light, I heard or read somewhere that darkness was light turned down to absolute minimum, if that is true then light IS darkness. He calls darkness His secret place, and from there He creates(imo) . From that darkness in Gen.1 He ends by saying Gen 1:31 And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good;
Psa 139:11 And I say, `Surely darkness bruiseth me, Then night is light to me.
Psa 139:12 Also darkness hideth not from Thee, And night as day shineth,
as is darkness so is light. I suppose my belief is that Christians teach only the negative of darkness and in doing so overlook the positive. His creation came out of darkness so it must be good. (imo)
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2014, 11:26:07 PMIf I said, that those who don't fly to Florida will not be hurt of the hurricane, would that make sense?
To me, yes.
Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2014, 10:25:40 PM
...the more I think about the LOF judgement sounds more like a failed/corrupt priesthood judgemnt.
your'e righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisee's sadducee's....the molten sea
for the priests to wash in..symbolizing not doing your'e willwith the giftsof the ministry..but
God's......
the angels[messengers of the covenant/gospel] not keeping thier positions of authority......
surely a corrupt priesthood is an abomination? for I was hungry and you gave me nothing
to eat,naked and you did not clothe me,sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
.............
I very much agree with this. Even in Matthew 25:46 those who are cast into the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels are those who said, "Lord, Lord....
Also, Jesus says that those who overcome will not be touched by the second death, and again He says those who overcome wil not be "blotted out" of the Lamb's book of life".
But also, we see the anti-christ and the false prophet cast into the LOF. Aslo in James we read
"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. 2 Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!
I think perhaps those who are predators of any type will see the LOF and the meek will "inherit the earth".
QuoteBut I do believe the Lord Got works with darkness. Gen. 1:2 ...... the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep,....from that darkness, which is His secret place Psa 18:11 He maketh darkness His secret place, Round about Him His tabernacle, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
I agree with this. That is why I believe God uses sin to judge the sinner by turning man over to a carnal nature. That is why I believe he turned Jersualem over to Babylon. That is what I see as the significance of God saying "Babylon is a gold cup in the Lord's hand. And the nations have been made to drink."
QuoteI suppose my belief is that Christians teach only the negative of darkness and in doing so overlook the positive. His creation came out of darkness so it must be good. (imo)
Evil is bad, but can be used for good. Though there is no darkness in God, he can still USE it for good. That is what I see the LOF being.
"Here is how I see the judgment of the world demonstrated among those who are in the lake of fire and are therefore experiencing wine of God's wrath, torment, darkness, death, being bound hand and foot etc." (Seth)
Rev. 20:10 Tormented G928 basanizōFrom G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
G931 basanos Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment. G939 basis (to walk); a pace ("base"), that is, (by implication) the foot: - foot.
This same word tormented is the same word tossed.
Mat 14:24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.(KJV)
Mat 14:24 and the boat was now in the midst of the sea, distressed by the waves, for the wind was contrary. (YLT)
CLV(i) 24 Now the ship was already many stadia away from the land, in the midst of the sea, being tormented by the billows, for the wind was contrary."
Rotherham(i) 24 Now, the boat, still many furlongs from the land, was holding off, being distressed by the waves,—for, the wind, was, contrary.
This is all I could find about the lake of fire in my search.
Rev_19:20 and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast--the two--to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;
Rev_20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.
Rev_20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
Rev_20:15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
Now I am by no means saying that the lake of fire is not going to be terrible. It will be.
But I see no evidence of what you spoke about the lake of fire.
A P.S. It just seems to me (imo) that your understanding has a touch of what is called here ET's, a vendetta of hate with joy with the outcome of the sinner. ET's desire a continuous burning fire of total horror and they are happy or it seems happy about it.. It is my understanding that God is Love (1 Jo. 4:16) and should that be true even though there will be judgment in the lake of fire it will be coming from a God who is love.
Heb 10:30 for we have known Him who is saying, `Vengeance is Mine, I will recompense, saith the Lord;' and again, `The Lord shall judge His people;' --
Heb 10:31 fearful is the falling into the hands of a living God.
That alone is the message to the sinner.
"Distressed" is exactly the natural consequence of sin and darkness. That's the reason it will be terrible.
It is the wine of God's fury.
Quote from: micah7:9A P.S. It just seems to me (imo) that your understanding has a touch of what is called here ET's, a vendetta of hate with joy with the outcome of the sinner. ET's desire a continuous burning fire of total horror and they are happy or it seems happy about it.
I've never said or believed any such thing. I have always been saying that the Spirit and the Bride preach healing to the nations outside the spiritual City by way of entering into New Jerusalem (through an open gate) and to leave aside the spiritual death which has destroyed their houses.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 11:12:00 PM
"Although I am not totally certain of this, but I have a suspicion that the saints corporately, will make up the lake of fire, along with Yeshua, as his body, judging the world. I am not sure how that all works out, but I see glimpses of it in the Prophets, along with Paul's writings."
That's what I think it is.
1 Corinthians 4:5 (NASB)
5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/can-a-believer-go-to-the-lake-of-fire/msg176400/#msg176400 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/can-a-believer-go-to-the-lake-of-fire/msg176400/#msg176400)
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 11:27:00 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 11, 2014, 11:20:41 PM
That is why I quoted you brother :). You mentioned them being in the lake of fire, and Jesus being the lake of fire. So do you also see them being the lake of fire along with Jesus; not just in it, but both being in it and being it, distinct and yet of the same substance, such as when little flames are added to a a fire?
Yes.
seeing the prophecy of John the baptist and the Lord of hosts saying it is HE ,
Mal 3 1"Behold, I am going t
o send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple;
and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts.
2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3
"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousnessPaul the Priesthood son of Benjamin a Levi , the change from Levi Priesthood to the King of Melchizedek, who appears briefly in Abraham's life I AM,THAT I AM was King of Salem and priest of the Most High God. royal priesthood Jesus, in response to the Pharisees' question "Who do you think you are?" said, "'Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.' 'You are not yet fifty years old,' the Jews said to him, 'and you have seen Abraham!' 'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered
, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'The Mission of John the Baptist
the great separation
...16John answered and said to them all, "
As for me, I baptize you with water but
One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals;
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17"
His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn;
but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." 18So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people
clear , clean purge the threshing floor I have considered this is separating within us , Only Because Jesus says the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU not here nor there not after anyone or anything , so the cleansing fire is within each and everyone of us , God is just and fair and PERFECT
the HOLY SPIRIT is the LORD OF HOSTS &GOD the Father and all those with Him
when the Lord told his disciples they would judge the 12 tribes of Israel Jesus said to them,
"Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
the big question is this to me right now is the SON OF MAN sitting on His glorious throne ? yes
in Rev 3 we see HE IS !! but are we in the 7th and last church running the race ? yes
Message to Laodicea
14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the [k]Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
15 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will [l]spit you out of My mouth.
17 Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"
for me I thought this is exactly where the Lord of hosts went after being taken up in the clouds in Acts
Does He return when we least expect it ? , I would have to say yes to those still not having HIM seated in their hearts ruling within us yet
each in their own order , so no man can know the time
Quote from: rosered on September 12, 2014, 01:29:40 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 11, 2014, 11:27:00 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 11, 2014, 11:20:41 PM
That is why I quoted you brother :). You mentioned them being in the lake of fire, and Jesus being the lake of fire. So do you also see them being the lake of fire along with Jesus; not just in it, but both being in it and being it, distinct and yet of the same substance, such as when little flames are added to a a fire?
Yes.
seeing the prophecy of John the baptist and the Lord of hosts saying it is HE ,
Mal 3 1"Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple;
and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts.
2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness
Paul the Priesthood son of Benjamin a Levi , the change from Levi Priesthood to the King of Melchizedek, who appears briefly in Abraham's life I AM,THAT I AM was King of Salem and priest of the Most High God. royal priesthood Jesus, in response to the Pharisees' question "Who do you think you are?" said, "'Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.' 'You are not yet fifty years old,' the Jews said to him, 'and you have seen Abraham!' 'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'
The Mission of John the Baptist
the great separation
...16John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water
but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17"His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." 18So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people
clear , clean purge the threshing floor I have considered this is separating within us , Only Because Jesus says the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU not here nor there not after anyone or anything , so the cleansing fire is within each and everyone of us , God is just and fair and PERFECT
I think there is a strong difference between the house of God receiving the fiery trials of faith and those who are cast into darkness. One occurs from within. The other occurs from without.
Revelation 18
1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (these will be made known later in the passage). 5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6Reward her even as (hos - in like manner, such as) she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled, fill to her double. 7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong the Lord God who judgeth her.
Her sins have reached heaven. Kinda reminds me how "wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke." The SAME CUP she gave others, SHE drinks DOUBLE. Her plagues come in one day:
DEATH
MOURNING
FAMINE
Those who remain in Babylon receive these three plagues, which is why they are told to COME OUT so that you do not receive of her plagues. This is why the wine and the fire are combined in Revelation 14. Wine in moderation doses is pleasure. But if you DOUBLE it, not so much. You end up stumbling and exposing nakedness. These are the natural results of sin and darkness. This is why for those in the LOF, the Spirit and the Bride say COME, drink the water of life freely.
What she did to others God will do to her, except he will make sure it is DOUBLED, and he will reward her the same way she rewarded you. Here is a really good example of that kind of judging:
1 Thess 2
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The reason that the brightness of his coming will destroy them is clear to me. Even if you say that the Lake of Fire is the saints, look what it does, look how it is used: And for those who practiced DECEPTION, they shall receive what? A STRONG DELUSION...and be judged who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The fire they are judged by is going to shut them out for a time:
1 Thess
6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of aionios destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
The judgment of flaming fire from God is explained in the same passage: "These will pay the penalty of an aionios destruction, away from the presence of the Lord." DARKNESS is the judgment. What happens when you are in darkness? What are your actions?
The LOF is about exposure, and humbling. For that, DRINK DOUBLE the same you have meted out. But the reason God metes out strong delusion for exposing the deceivers is explained by him already:
Habbukkuk 2
15"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies 16 You will be filled with shame instead of glory. Now it is your turn! Drink and let your nakedness be exposed The cup from the Lord's right hand is coming around to you, and disgrace will cover your glory.
Seth
QuoteI think there is a strong difference between the house of God receiving the fiery trials of faith and those who are cast into darkness. One occurs from within. The other occurs from without.
I do to Seth , most definitely a big difference
the fiery trials of faith are done by those whom persecute , the same sufferings of Christ and for the cause of the Cross the UPRIGHT STAKE /TRUTH
those whom are cast into utter darkness are "cut off ' [ they rejected HIM though disobedience] for a time from the Lord of Hosts , like blessed is he who is in the first resurrection [I am the resurrection and the Life ]
for me their second chance come when they shall say " Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord "
37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38
Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
I never want to think that I have all this figured out , not at all , we are just looking at the scriptures for answers and considering them ALL , not just a few hopefully
but I am learning Seth and am thankful to God for all the HOLY SPIRIT help
I feel that Jerusalem , Jerusalem , the LORD called twice in this verse
every time the Lord says anything twice and any name twice , to me its to both the natural and the Spiritual and twice told as prophecy , I feel every word said of the LORD means something very important I have a strong reverence for His every word and yes a healthy fear and awe of Him ,
Your house is left to you desolate is within us to me , it could not be any more individual than this to me but I do do also see the bigger picture as the scribes pharisees and hypocrites as being Joined to Babylon and that cry is to come out of her my people those abusing the law and being in authority especially the religious leaders whom abuse it
I agree with alot of what you are saying about the judgment. And I do believe "your house left desolate" is internal, but I see it also as a whole thing too. I can be destroyed internally as well as externally. I think as prodigals, if we become prodigals, the experience is to believe that we are clothed but to be exposed as naked. Believe that we are rich, but our house is desolate. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on September 12, 2014, 02:02:41 AM
Revelation 18
1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (these will be made known later in the passage). 5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6Reward her even as (hos - in like manner, such as) she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled, fill to her double. 7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong the Lord God who judgeth her.
Her sins have reached heaven. Kinda reminds me how "wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke." The SAME CUP she gave others, SHE drinks DOUBLE. Her plagues come in one day:
DEATH
MOURNING
FAMINE
Those who remain in Babylon receive these three plagues, which is why they are told to COME OUT so that you do not receive of her plagues. This is why the wine and the fire are combined in Revelation 14. Wine in moderation doses is pleasure. But if you DOUBLE it, not so much. You end up stumbling and exposing nakedness. These are the natural results of sin and darkness. This is why for those in the LOF, the Spirit and the Bride say COME, drink the water of life freely.
What she did to others God will do to her, except he will make sure it is DOUBLED, and he will reward her the same way she rewarded you. Here is a really good example of that kind of judging:
1 Thess 2
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The reason that the brightness of his coming will destroy them is clear to me. Even if you say that the Lake of Fire is the saints, look what it does, look how it is used: And for those who practiced DECEPTION, they shall receive what? A STRONG DELUSION...and be judged who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The fire they are judged by is going to shut them out for a time:
1 Thess
6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of aionios destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
The judgment of flaming fire from God is explained in the same passage: "These will pay the penalty of an aionios destruction, away from the presence of the Lord." DARKNESS is the judgment. What happens when you are in darkness? What are your actions?
The LOF is about exposure, and humbling. For that, DRINK DOUBLE the same you have meted out. But the reason God metes out strong delusion for exposing the deceivers is explained by him already:
Habbukkuk 2
15"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies 16 You will be filled with shame instead of glory. Now it is your turn! Drink and let your nakedness be exposed The cup from the Lord's right hand is coming around to you, and disgrace will cover your glory.
we agree :i agree: on the destruction of Babylon as being a fire
[to destroy wickedness ]as you say wickedness is a fire of its own self , taking away everything , her power her covering , her ease , for me Babylon a spirit that works on a person and in a person , I can only speak from experiences also Seth , I think again we are speaking about two different things as the LIGHT AND FIRE OF GODS Jealousy will destroy all wickedness [ a fire of its own doings] to cleanse and make new , the old shall be no more , its end will come by the Bigger Fire and Glory of Gods own will
the Study of Babylon and what fire she is burned with comes from those beastly natures of men turning on her as God has put it in their hearts to do so 16"And the ten horns which you saw,
and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17"For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until
the words of God will be fulfilled. 18"The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.
in her Gods wrath is complete Rev 15 1Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last,
because in them the wrath of God is finished.
2And I saw something like a
sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.
the Fire of Gods Glory ,as it is written , we will be LIKE HIM
hi rose, that post was more just a few thoughts that I had had in general, not a contradiction of what you had said in particular.
Quote from: Seth on September 12, 2014, 03:02:45 AM
hi rose, that post was more just a few thoughts that I had had in general, not a contradiction of what you had said in particular.
Thank you Seth agreed , we were posting at the same time it seems :HeartThrob:
QuoteI agree with alot of what you are saying about the judgment. And I do believe "your house left desolate" is internal, but I see it also as a whole thing too. I can be destroyed internally as well as externally. I think as prodigals, if we become prodigals, the experience is to believe that we are clothed but to be exposed as naked. Believe that we are rich, but our house is desolate. :thumbsup:
:friendstu:
Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2014, 08:06:54 PM
Praising that appearing of the Holy city..with the light of love coming/shining forth into
the darkness,from it's gates...saying Come!
The hounds of hell,hear thier bay
over distant fields they lay.
Listen..as they seek you out....with nostrils flared on their snout
your scent theyv'e caught..they turn your way
to seek you out where they lay
the hounds of hell are baying,hear the call of the pack
Gnashing teeth,growling throats..ears lying back
the city gate,lies ahead..and beckons with a glow
a warm embrace awaits you there,a feast a sumptous meal...
the hounds of hell..are thwarted..and quickly turn on heel.
Your poem sis ,
:HeartThrob: Yes leaving those things behind and entering His Holy City where He reigns in Pure Life Holy and perfect / complete
I personally disagree with a particular analysis of New Jerusalem as being within the borders of a larger Israel. Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world" and I think we see that displayed as John saw it.
Revelation 21
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God
We see here that John was carried to a high mountaintop to see the city, which is descending out of heaven. John does not see an earthly nation with earthly borders surrounding the city. He simply sees the city itself. The city uses the name Jerusalem as a NEW city, not as like the one on earth. That city is the bride, the people, the body of Christ. Just as Israel is God's first born son, that city IS the Israel of God. It's a city-state. While I believe that parts of the temple, and the land itself can be seen as representing the rest of the world, I don't think that such symbolism is being used here.
New Jerusalem IS "a peculiar people, a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation" unto itself.
Likewise, just as in Revelation earthly Israel itself is compared to Egypt and Sodom (where our Lord was crucified), because Christ uses Gehenna as a metaphor, does not mean he is intending to say that those in the LOF are themselves part of Israel of God. Separate elements can be used to represent concepts individually. Using the "Egypt and Sodom" metaphor, as Jesus Christ was was being conspired against and crucified, he himself was the lone Israel surrounded by Egypt and Sodom and the Gehenna that is within their borders. For if they were the seed of Abraham, the works of Abraham they would do.
The only seed of Abraham at that moment was Jesus Christ, and all else was Egypt. I don't believe there is any Israel outside of Christ, and I don't see being "in Christ" as anything different from being in covenantal relationship by faith and unity of the Holy Spirit. I understand the God's perspective VS man perspective ideas about everyone being in God now, but I don't think that kind of teaching is being employed in Revelation 14, 21, or 22.
I see a holy city where I don't see described in Revelation any part of the city being caught on fire. While the image of fire is used to represent God and his people and Jerusalem in other parts of scripture, here where the LOF is described, fire is decisively and glaringly absent with respect to the materials of construction described by John in Revelation, with good reason I believe. I think it is because there is another use of the image of "fire" in the Bible, in Isaiah 9, which is being employed.
The use of PRECIOUS gems and materials in connection to New Jerusalem harkens back to 1 Corinthians 3 to me, about how builders use different kinds of materials, some flammable, and others not. "The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone." Gems are not flammable, but hay, wood and stubble are flammable. So when the fire comes in the day of the Lord to reveal the kind of works, the house of Jerusalem stands. Outside? Not so much.
The tree of life is not caught on fire, nor the streets, nor the rivers of running water, nor the pearl gate, nor the inhabitants, or the temple, because there is no temple, and there is no sun because God is their light. Outside, everything is totally ablaze. The only fire John sees in Revelation 21 is outside the gate, and I don't like to add symbolism from other visions INTO other visions (ie combining visions) because I believe it confuses the issue being revealed. I believe the significance of lacking fire in the image symbol of New Jersualem is because "nothing unclean may enter" and so if "wickedness is like a fire," you naturally won't see that fire in New Jerusalem. New Jerusalem is resistant to that fire.
If the fire shall reveal the works, I believe it will reveal that New Jerusalem is resistant to suffering loss with bad building materials, but that outside the gate, the works are being being revealed as poor and the builders are suffering loss and their fire, that God has given them, is burning them up until they fall, yet the builders will be saved. For that purpose, I believe God gives the wine of his wrath to expose the nakedness and such an operation is apparent to me in the LOF, as is "strong delusion" that they should believe a lie and be judged.
I understand your concern of mixing visions, especially if they are not related thematically in some way. However, I do believe that it is vitally important to study to see those connections when they appear, for they shed a more completed picture of the whole.
As an example, The vision of the New Jerusalem shows a river of WATER flowing out from it, both in Revelation and in Ezekiel. The vision in Daniel however, shows a river of FIRE flowing from the same throne. These are not mutually exclusive visions, as if water flows sometimes, and then fire the other. The water and the fire are providing a more completed picture, that the water and fire flowing from the throne are one and the same. They are simply describing different aspects and effects that we can understand as humans.
To help us make that connection thematically, we can also look at John's account in chapter 20, which speaks of the scrolls being unrolled, and judgment commencing. There is a lake of fire that those not in the book of life are cast into. This lake has a source though, and Daniel's account provides that piece of the puzzle, for in chapter 7 verse 10 he refers to the same books being opened and judgment commencing, and a little horn being burned in fire (vs 11). The source of that fire is seen in verses 9 and 10, as a stream or river of fire coming from the throne. Although not explicitly stated in John's account, the lake of fire is not without its source, there is fire in the New Jerusalem flowing from the under the throne of God eastward into the lake of fire, depicting in the promised land as the Dead Sea, which I understand to be a picture of the bronze molten sea in the tabernacle/temple construct.
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 12, 2014, 11:25:01 PM
As an example, The vision of the New Jerusalem shows a river of WATER flowing out from it, both in Revelation and in Ezekiel. The vision in Daniel however, shows a river of FIRE flowing from the same throne. These are not mutually exclusive visions, as if water flows sometimes, and then fire the other.
What happening is that fire is being used in ONE part scripture to symbolize something, but in another. In other words, in Isaiah 9, the reason God is not described as fire is because WICKEDNESS is a fire. So when the image of fire is being used THERE, God is decidedly not being used to represent fire.
In the case of Revelation 14, 21, and 22, I believe the fire aspect is the one that tries the works to see what nature they are. This is connected to the WINE OF GOD's WRATH. Because New Jerusalem is not appointed to God's wrath, fire is not used to describe their building materials being engulfed by his wrath. They are not on fire, because the building materials are made of fine materials. And God himself is represented as a tree of life, and rivers are made with water, here in this particular phrase. ADDING the image of fire where John does not see it, in my opinion, is missing the point of why New Jerusalem is not caught on fire and those outside the gates (building with stubble and hay) are indeed caught on fire.
In other words, while Daniel uses fire, and John does not, means that they are speaking of different aspects of Jerusalem, not the same aspects.
QuoteTo help us make that connection thematically, we can also look at John's account in chapter 20, which speaks of the scrolls being unrolled, and judgment commencing. There is a lake of fire that those not in the book of life are cast into. This lake has a source though, and Daniel's account provides that piece of the puzzle, for in chapter 7 verse 10 he refers to the same books being opened and judgment commencing, and a little horn being burned in fire (vs 11). The source of that fire is seen in verses 9 and 10, as a stream or river of fire coming from the throne. Although not explicitly stated in John's account, the lake of fire is not without its source, there is fire in the New Jerusalem flowing from the under the throne of God eastward into the lake of fire, depicting in the promised land as the Dead Sea, which I understand to be a picture of the bronze molten sea in the tabernacle/temple construct.
I have always said that the fire COMES from God, just like the WINE of his wrath comes from him. But the wine is not something God himself drinks nor does he force the inhabitants of New Jerusalem to drink it, and that is why there is no depiction of fire in John's vision, because John is making that point, I believe. The fact that it comes from God does not mean it is upon his people.
I think another reason God changes the rivers from fire to water is because the Spirit and the Bride say come and drink the water of life, whereas they are drinking the wine of wrath. It becomes absurd to say that they are inviting the people into the city to drink more fire. So, while Daniel has a point with fire. John has a point with water. And I think it becomes confusing when we say that John's rivers are fire, when John says they are water. I think the vision images should stand as as they, without swapping them between visions, so that the internal logic of the vision can be sustained.
Exactly. That is what I am trying to share. I believe we are using different ways to describe it, but I see us as, in the bigger picture, seeing similarly. Similar to the Spirit of God being symbolized by oil, as well as by fire, different symbols of the same to describe different functions and experiences.
Yes, different functions and experiences, and if one of those functions and experiences is to send fire, if that fire is the same as "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven" (like as Sodom and Gomorrah) I believe that fire is manifested as wickedness itself, not God himself.
A good way to understand that is through this example:
1 Kings 22
21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
I see that as judgment fire from God. I see that as "strong delusion" and the wine of God's wrath, without actually BEING God himself. That is what I believe the Adversary's place in the Day of the Lord will be.
I believe that God judges the wicked both ways, by the fruit of their wickedness, and also fire, that fire being the light that brings every secret thing to the surface - light consuming darkness. Light is fire to darkness.
For instance, altho God creates chaos, He is not chaos. God has reserved a manifestation of fire that purges the righteous, and a manifestation of fire that corrects the wicked- such as what Jesus called aionian pur, or aionian kolassis.
It is also writtenin the prophets somewhere- " I will be a wall of fire around Jerusalem." This fire does both. Only the righteous may pass through it, being purged on the way "in". The wicked are prevented entrance by that very same fire, and consumed by it should they seek to force their way into it.
There are many fires. The anti-christ calls down fire, but it is certainly not the fire of God. In the law, an adulterer or adulteress was judged for "causing her children to pass through the fire." This was not the fire of God. It was a wicked fire perpetrated upon the innocent, as was the fire in which the backslidden Israelites caused their children to be sacrificed to Moloch.
The fire in which the brothers of Daniel were sacrificed by Nebuchadnezzar was meant for evil, but only burned their bonds, because "one like unto the son of man" was with them in the fire, generated by man for evil purposes.
The need to categorize/analyze evrything around particular words is, in my view, putting God into a box within which He cannot be contained.
At the bottom line we all agree that God is in control of everything, from the purging of the righteous to the judgment of the wicked to the reconciliation of all.
Our opinions about His methods may differ, but in the end, the fire of God will have consumed all darkness and He will be all in all- so all will be rejoicing in the fire of His countenance :o)
I.agree with much of what you say, but that anti Christ fire I.don't separate as being sourced from.God. I think it makes Christians uncomfortable to.see.God using evil.
About the God.in a box thing, I wasn't saying not consider other parts of scripture, but the what John saw, he wrote and I am sure God has a good reason for that and I don't think we should be so quick to take one image and swap for another as though John saw something he did t see.
Quote from: Seth on September 13, 2014, 04:18:45 AM
I.agree with much of what you say, but that anti Christ fire I.don't separate as being sourced from.God. I think it makes Christians uncomfortable to.see.God using evil.
About the God.in a box thing, I wasn't saying not consider other parts of scripture, but the what John saw, he wrote and I am sure God has a good reason for that and I don't think we should be so quick to take one image and swap for another as though John saw something he did t see.
I agree. I dont think the fire from the anti-christ is coming from God either. God has also set some things that may be accessed for good or evil- such as natural fire, iron and sulfur, natural things that hav parralels in the spiritual realm(imo)
Also, was responding to the thread in general- not just your post :o)
I realized I wrote that down wrong. I do believe the anti Christ fire can be from God. I think Christians can be uncomfortable with that idea. The lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets is from God but is not God himself. Certainly fire CAN represent light, but in Revelation that light which is God is said to be in New Jerusalem, which is why there is no night there, no darkness, no death.
One of the reasons I talk about not swapping the images, is because I believe there is a reference to 1 Cor 3.
1 Cor 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
That tells me that not everyone's work shall be burned. That's probably why it also says that the saints shall not be touched of the second death. So I see a strong correlation to the fact that there is no fire imagery associated with New Jerusalem. That city is built with good work, gems sapphire gold, glass pearl. Nonflammable material. I think that point gets diluted when we say that the saints ARE the lake of fire because it confuses the issue as to why the city gates and foundation are made not from fire, but, again, gems, pearl etc.
As to what the fire does, I think it destroys, and in so doing exposes the works. So I see the wine leading to the fire. The city cannot be touched of that wine and that fire because their works withstand fire, they cannot be touched by the death that is the Lake of Fire, because they are not works which are based on the wine of Gods wrath. So when I see that God sends lying spirits to make sure the false prophets lie, I see the images at work. The false prophets say false things to make the the people build with bad material and that tongue which is a fire sets it all ablaze as with Gehenna.
The reason I believe Jesus refers to Gehenna is because it is a throwback to idolatry and the destruction It naturally brings. That is why I believe also James refers to Gehenna in that manner.
Quote from: Seth on September 13, 2014, 12:06:46 AM
Yes, different functions and experiences, and if one of those functions and experiences is to send fire, if that fire is the same as "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven" (like as Sodom and Gomorrah) I believe that fire is manifested as wickedness itself, not God himself.
A good way to understand that is through this example:
1 Kings 22
21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
I see that as judgment fire from God. I see that as "strong delusion" and the wine of God's wrath, without actually BEING God himself. That is what I believe the Adversary's place in the Day of the Lord will be.
Yes Ronen we are saying that but , Some of us believe in the LIVING GOD being'' all in all '' already , in the sense of this , a very simple and clear
But wide view of ''Could satan be given any power at all with out God ?
Could wickedness continue without God ?
Could anything exist without Gods fire of consuming ?
I believe wholeheartedly that trying to separate the fires is not giving God His full Glory , in the simple explanation of this
can anything have power , Authority without GOD knowing ?
I agree its HIS JUDGMENT fully
who can stand against God ?
Isaiah 14
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The LORD of Hosts Himself has planned it; therefore, who can stand in its way? It is His hand that is outstretched, so who can turn it back?
International Standard Version
For the LORD of the Heavenly Armies has planned, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?"
NET Bible
Indeed, the LORD who commands armies has a plan, and who can possibly frustrate it? His hand is ready to strike, and who can possibly stop it?
I do believe its examples of futility /pointless in trying, as examples
prove this as a truth .
no power or authority at all over God Almighty
Its just a larger view of seeing Gods authority that nothing is able to move or be without HIM
Hi Rose, I think you meant to address me :laughing7:
I Do agree with much of what you say there. And it seems the that we see things similarly concerning the judgment. When I say that I don't believe that God is the fire itself in the case of these revelation chapters, I am not saying that he did not send the fire, and that he is not in control of it.
What I am saying is that when God sends a lying spirit to the mouth of the prophets, he is not that spirit itself. He is not a lying spirit, even though he sends strong delusion.
Maybe it's just a nuanced way of looking at it, But, I just see a very strong connection to Isaiah 9 fire in Revelation 14 being an agent of destruction which cannot touch the city of God. Since wickedness is a fire, you might imagine my hesitance to say that God IS that fire, though I believe he definitely sends it and uses it.
I remember how the man in Corinthians was told to be sent out of the church to "Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may live in the day of The Lord" I think Satan has a role to play in the LOF, but obviously though God may use Satan, he is not actually Satan himself.
Quote from: Seth on September 13, 2014, 05:13:54 PM
Hi Rose, I think you meant to address me :laughing7:
I Do agree with much of what you say there. And it seems the that we see things similarly concerning the judgment. When I say that I don't believe that God is the fire itself in the case of these revelation chapters, I am not saying that he did not send the fire, and that he is not in control of it.
What I am saying is that when God sends a lying spirit to the mouth of the prophets, he is not that spirit itself. He is not a lying spirit, even though he sends strong delusion.
Maybe it's just a nuanced way of looking at it, But, I just see a very strong connection to Isaiah 9 fire in Revelation 14 being an agent of destruction which cannot touch the city of God.
Thanks Seth , now what do you not agree with ? :laughing7:
Love to be more clear lol
Its something I have struggled with for many , many years , nothing is worse than being misunderstood , the UR message
is clearly misunderstood and have prayed for clarity
I know the lying spirit God sends is for
the plan of God to prove every man a liar and God be true .
Every WORD of God is true
its just mans understanding of this truth is confusing
and have asked the Lord of hosts for help in clarity of making hard things easy to see and hear plainly
All in Gods plan just as Peter was going to deny Jesus 3 times and Jesus warns him he would yet Peter said LORD I WILL GO WITH YOU UNTO DEATH
but warmed himself fire kindled by rejecting Jesus with others ,
this fire represents a fire of their own destruction , destroying the pride in mankind and failure to save themselves , as a judgment to me .. just as you say as well
we are not on different terms here we believe in the fire of destruction as Gods judgment against evil doing / slander , lies , pride , falsehood etc .. so many to numerous to mention , I just believe that Gods consuming Fire is all the Fire of both His judgments in Love as well as destroying everything that opposes Him as to say ALL SOURCES come by His Authority They can only come from God who is all and creator of ALL , this may be where we disagree :dontknow: I have always seen Him as WAY BIG and unfathomable for many years now , this is how a lot of mine own personal fears come and was reconciled with
Just the way its worded we KNOW the fire has meaning or it would not be included as an example :thumbsup:
53They led Jesus away to the high priest; and all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes gathered together. 54Peter had followed Him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest; and he was sitting with the officers
and warming himself at the fire. 55Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, and they were not finding any.
Mark 14:66
While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came by.
Mark 14:67
When she saw Peter
warming himself, she looked closely at him. "You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus," she said.
I always think of Jesus saying I wish you were hot or cold , being lukewarm / being halfhearted or indifferent makes them as cast offs /useless to God
I like the connection you make there about warming yourself by the fire. I like the irony too, that lukewarmness is sort of like a blazing fire unto itself. It actually immediately reminded me of a scripture:
Hosea 7:1-7
Their (Israel's) sins engulf them; they are always before me. "They delight the king with their wickedness, the princes with their lies. They are all adulterers, burning like an oven
whose fire the baker need not stir from the kneading of the dough till it rises. On the day of the festival of our king, the princes become inflamed with wine, and he joins hands with the mockers.
In asmuch as Israel's sins engulf them, it's also a warming to them as with bread. They become food for the devouring of eachother, the wrong kind of bread.
QuoteThey can only come from God who is all and creator of ALL , this may be where we disagree :dontknow: I have always seen Him as WAY BIG and unfathomable for many years now , this is how a lot of mine own personal fears come and was reconciled with
Just the way its worded we KNOW the fire has meaning or it would not be included as an example :thumbsup:
I think the reason my wording is different is because I used to believe and have heard from UR thought, that the Lake of Fire is a baptism of the Spirit, whereas I think it's made clear that judgment is being compared to fire (death), and the Spirit is being made compared to water (life) for the purposes of the point being made by the vision.
Baptism of the Spirit tends to cause joy, life and freedom. Whereas everything said about the Day of the Lord judgment refers to it as destruction which will cause loss and suffering, torment, death and darkness.
I don't much have a problem with the way you mean it though, as I don't think that is what you are saying. I see the judgment, rather than a baptism of the Spirit to be more like this:
Lamentations 1:13-15
"
From on high, he (God) sent FIRE, sent it down into my bones. He spread a net for my feet and turned me back. He made me desolate, faint all the day long.
"MY SINS have been bound into a yoke; by his hands they were woven together. They (the sins) have been hung on my neck, and the Lord has sapped my strength. He has given me into the hands of those I cannot withstand. "The Lord has rejected all the warriors in my midst; he has summoned an army against me to crush my young men.
In his winepress the Lord has trampled Virgin Daughter Judah.Revelation 14 also mentions that winepress outside the city, which I think is all connected together with being turned over to Babylon to drink her wine.
Habakkuk 1:12
O Lord, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to CORRECT us, to punish us for our many sins.
Jeremiah 2:19
Your own wickedness will correct you, And your apostasies will reprove you;
So if God sends "your own wickedness" to correct people, that is where I make the distinction between God sending the fire and BEING the fire. But, nevertheless, I definitely agree with you are meaning it, because I don't think it is the same thing as a baptism of the Spirit. If that is what the LOF, Jesus would have told people to RUN to Gehenna and fully immerse themselves. But he said to keep out of it.
Thanks again for the descriptiveness of your posts !
God knows I am trying to be clear ..lol
I find it amazing now looking at the WORD just how much is about FIRE!
QuoteI think the reason my wording is different is because I used to believe and have heard from UR thought, that the Lake of Fire is a baptism of the Spirit, whereas I think it's made clear that judgment is being compared to fire (death), and the Spirit is being made compared to water (life) for the purposes of the point being made by the vision.
I see what you mean Seth
and I always thought this too LIFE AND WATER comes after the fire and death , Life and death are yours 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,
23and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. but I have to say that after looking at Holy Spirit and Fire , I believe in its duality of it being death and life at the same time in separating
in Acts 2 we see this with the cloven tongues that sat on each one of them and the fire there is a baptism of death and baptism of Life as well after death
cloven is a weird word and always wondered about it till I saw what it was meaning and this refresher course we have been given of the Lord to go though once again in more depth
diamerizō
Pronunciation
dē-ä-me-rē'-zō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From διά (G1223) and μερίζω (G3307)
to cleave asunder, cut in piecesto be divided into opposing parts, to be at variance, in dissensionto distribute cloven tongues
2And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind,
and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared to them
tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and
they rested on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with
other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance I am a firm believer that the presence of God when you look at it throughout scriptures
when you see the Fire as in Moses and the burning bush and it was not consumed
and with the children of Israel was a pillar of cloud by day and pillar of Fire by night
and even Jacob a worm its all about GODS JUST JUDGMENT & MERCY to kill and make alive and after the fire the waters come
both are of God and
both accomplish His purpose I do see Jesus as a fire and those of His making up the fire
but also Jesus is so much more than just that aspect of Him !
13"For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand,
Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.'
14
"Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel;
I will help you," declares the LORD, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.
15"Behold,
I have made you a new, sharp threshing sledge with double edges;
You will thresh the mountains and pulverize them,
And will make the hills like chaff.
16"You will winnow them, and the wind will carry them away,
And the storm will scatter them;
But you will rejoice in the LORD,
You will glory in the Holy One of Israel.
17"The afflicted and needy are seeking water, but there is none,
And their tongue is parched with thirst;
I, the LORD, will answer them Myself,
As the God of Israel I will not forsake them.
18"I will open rivers on the bare heights
And springs in the midst of the valleys;
I will make the wilderness a pool of water
And the dry land fountains of water.
19"I will put the cedar in the wilderness,
The acacia and the myrtle and the olive tree;
I will place the juniper in the desert
Together with the box tree and the cypress,
20That they may see and recognize,
And consider and gain insight as well,
That the hand of the LORD has done this,
And the Holy One of Israel has created it.
21"Present your case," the LORD says.
"Bring forward your strong arguments,"
The King of Jacob says.
I do understand what your saying and can really be thankful for that you going into such ability to prove it though scriptures and understanding
for me it is the dividing fire that Jesus said he would send on the earth after His baptism in Luke 49 and its prophecy
the testimony of Jesus Christ is the SAME SPIRIT of prophecy and we saw how that worked with that group of people , they were all able to understand one another by the
HOLY SPIRIT and Fire Its so much more than expected when digging deeply into Gods Word as Truth
I can now see more clearly the meaning of
where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched to me its a constant consuming Fire of God and relief of the waters of Life that flow freely
The fire of God 'He that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God' -- 1 JOHN iv.16. being on fire for God an old saying from the baptist circles lol
Its zeal and passion suffering for describing this fire , Paul said I die daily , Jesus told him I will show the great things you will suffer for my names sake the regenerating grace of His Word found in each one called
I think you and I are talking about different fires. I'm talking about the fire that Jesus and James told us to avoid. :HeartThrob:
My main concern is that when we don't distinguish, people get a wrong impression about what it means for God to send a judgment fire. If Gehenna fire is the same as God, then we should RUN TOWARD IT, rather than steer clear of it.
Jesus says DO NOT let your body be in Gehenna. James is warning us AGAINST the blazing furnace. If that fire and the spirit are no different, then by all means, we SHOULD want out bodies to be in that spiritual condition.
We both pretty much agree, but I am just giving my concerns about why ETers might be confused by the UR message in general given what they know about the warnings concerning Gehenna. I think they should be told that God is in control of his judgements, but also have a healthy concern about the gravity of those judgments. .
In my old church I was taught that receiving the Spirit baptism was the same as his fire. So when I first heard about UR, I was being told that this was the same as Gehenna fire. That was very confusing to me because it really doesn't make sense. A baptism of the spirit is not death in darkness, but life and light. I am just concerned about sorting out the confusion that can occur. We are not warned against having a baptism of the spirit in the Bible, but we are warned against the fire of Gehenna by The Lord himself. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on September 13, 2014, 10:10:27 PM
In my old church I was taught that receiving the Spirit baptism was the same as his fire. So when I first heard about UR, I was being told that this was the same as Gehenna fire. That was very confusing to me because it really doesn't make sense. A baptism of the spirit is not death in darkness, but life and light. I am just concerned about sorting out the confusion that can occur. We are not warned against having a baptism of the spirit in the Bible, but we are warned against the fire of Gehenna by The Lord himself. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on September 13, 2014, 09:57:22 PM
I think you and I are talking about different fires. I'm talking about the fire that Jesus and James told us to avoid. :HeartThrob:
My main concern is that when we don't distinguish, people get a wrong impression about what it means for God to send a judgment fire. If Gehenna fire is the same as God, then we should RUN TOWARD IT, rather than steer clear of it.
Jesus says DO NOT let your body be in Gehenna. James is warning us AGAINST the blazing furnace. If that fire and the spirit are no different, then by all means, we SHOULD want out bodies to be in that spiritual condition.
We both pretty much agree, but I am just giving my concerns about why ETers might be confused by the UR message in general given what they know about the warnings concerning Gehenna. I think they should be told that God is in control of his judgements, but also have a healthy concern about the gravity of those judgments. .
Yes Seth the cup of suffering in the Lords hand
He tasted death for every man , so not every man would have to taste death
Matthew 26:39
And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
Luke 22:42
saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.
I know what you are saying here is true :thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on September 13, 2014, 10:10:27 PM
In my old church I was taught that receiving the Spirit baptism was the same as his fire. So when I first heard about UR, I was being told that this was the same as Gehenna fire. That was very confusing to me because it really doesn't make sense. A baptism of the spirit is not death in darkness, but life and light. I am just concerned about sorting out the confusion that can occur. We are not warned against having a baptism of the spirit in the Bible, but we are warned against the fire of Gehenna by The Lord himself. :HeartThrob:
I have been in much the same experience, as well as with other explanations, and so sorting it all out has been very difficult for me, and I am continuing to sort it out. As I currently understand it, if I take the topography of the promised land into consideration with what I read in scripture, I see the Lake of Fire as the Dead Sea, not Gehenna. Gehenna has it's own lessons to teach. Jeshua made it very clear, as I believe you said, that Gehenna is to be avoided at all costs by anyone.
Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2014, 01:11:05 AM
confession time.....when I hear people saying' but we are the elect" as if they are somehow better then other men..I WANT TO PUKE!! it's the free gift..the seed given unto us
The man grasps the seed and places it in the soil.
Pity the man who thinks he is better than others if a shoot appears.
Without the elements or even the life in the soil which is ignorant of its Creator, the man can achieve nothing and he will be ashamed.
Being the elect, is in itself(if properly understood) a confession that we are anything we are- only by the grace of God.
Elect to what?
To lay down or lives one for another, and to share in the suffering and rejection of Christ in the pursuit of the reconciliation of all unto Him.
In the gospels Jesus says to those who believed "depart from me, I never knew you".
I did not read the whole thread so, don't know if this has been brought up.
:thumbsup:
I honestly can't remember :laughing7:
Ed,I think the whole thing is worth reading. It's a lot to read,I know. But if you could spare the time
I think you would be glad you did. :friendstu:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 14, 2014, 12:35:04 AM
Being the elect, is in itself(if properly understood) a confession that we are anything we are- only by the grace of God.
Elect to what?
To lay down or lives one for another, and to share in the suffering and rejection of Christ in the pursuit of the reconciliation of all unto Him.
I have been thinking really hard about all this , I have never had this made as clear
Some excellent points are brought up clearly brought out into the open .
I have told 5 peoples about the salvation of all recently , I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO BOLD , because I had no way of explaining this in simple terms
so some can even think about it , plant the seed , so to speak , well 3 are NO longer friends of mine , one is not sure and sure hopes this is true and ONE , one dear friends says I believe it
I have told others in the past and they think I AM WRONG , SO WRONG .
i TOLD them I am not a teacher or preacher , Just a witness to the Glory of God , and His plan is perfect and complete
What blocks them is the simple words '' burn forever and ever !''
Those words stumble GREATLY in the Word many .
I say if your willing I will share with you what I have learned , so many dont ask any longer :sigh:
the confidence I do have in the truth
I hope to continue in Truth and grace and be more ready and able to share the good news of the gospel
with scriptures , not with my own understanding , its takes the HOLY SPIRIT to teach and it only does that perfect work of Jesus righteouness when it moves within us and breathes on us ..
the plan of the ages , seem to speak of two in the scriptures , this age and the age to come as Jesus said the only sin not forgiven in this or age to come is Blaspheme the HOLY SPIRIT , an age is of certain duration [ an age , certain time , schedule , perpetual as on going in cycles or seasons ]
none is lost but the'' son of perdition'' that the scriptures be fulfilled , examples is the Word and they are used for His own purpose and fitted for destruction
made again new for another use or purpose perhaps .. Romans 9
There is just so much more than this
the fire of Gehenna [is now ]
the lake of fire for me are two different purposes and two different ages [to come ]
I would love by scriptures to go into it better
I do believe some will go straight up into the Heavenly hosts , of the Body of Christ as they are some that walk the earth that are now already in HIM
doing the greater works Jesus promised in the realm of Jesus Kingdom of God
Its all lessons learned in the righteousness of Christ who is in GOD
I do see a connection to Gehenna and the LOF with respect to New Jerusalem.
Isaiah 65
2 "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts, 3 A people who continually provoke Me to My face, Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks; 4 Who sit among graves and spend the night in secret places; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots. 5 "Who say, 'Keep to yourself, do not come near me, For I am holier than you!' These are smoke in My nostrils, A fire that burns all the day.
6 "Behold, it is written before Me, I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will even repay into their bosom, 7 Both their own iniquities and the iniquities of their fathers together," says the Lord. "Because they have burned incense on the mountains And scorned Me on the hills, Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom."
continuing to next chapter
Isaiah 66:
22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the Lord, "So your offspring and your name will endure. 23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the Lord. 24 "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."
I notice that those who say "do not come near me" these are a smoke in God's nostrils and a fire that burns all day (not unlike Isaiah 9 earlier). In Isaiah 9, one of the reasons the fire is not quenched is because man consumes and is never satisfied. This is "worm not dying and fire not being quenched" is in direct contrast to "the new heavens and the new earth." Fast forward to Christ's ministry who references Isaiah 66:
Mark 9
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into Gehenna, into the fire that shall not be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that shall not be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem) with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into Gehenna fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Fast forward to "new heaven and new earth"
Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and [d]unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
I can appreciate how you as well as others can come to that conclusion. I believe that other evidences point to it being specifically the Dead Sea, while Gehenna (which is a valley, not a lake or sea) is a picture of something different. That it is a THE lake burning of two substances...דנורא וכבריתא...of fire and brimstone, I believe would have spoken clearly to them of only one place.
Gehenna may not be a lake, but that doesn't mean that both Gehenna and a lake couldn't be used to represent the same thing.
Jude
12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved aionios.
Like clouds
Like fire
Like autumn trees with no fuit
Like wild waves of the sea
It's not always a dilemma between them.
In ancient times, Gehenna, although not considered the same as the Lake of Fire, is connected to it. Gehenna was said to be the abyss, the pit which serves as a prison. This I see as the abyss referred to in Revelation 20:3. The book of Enoch describes them both as different locations with different purposes. I know most would not see that book as inspired, but whether it is or not, it does give a glimpse into the minds of people back then, how they understood these terms.
Quote from: Seth on September 14, 2014, 11:06:15 PM
Gehenna may not be a lake, but that doesn't mean that both Gehenna and a lake couldn't be used to represent the same thing.
Jude
12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved aionios.
Like clouds
Like fire
Like autumn trees with no fuit
Like wild waves of the sea
It's not always a dilemma between them.
As in Jude's example, where he likens those men to all of those things clearly, if I find evidence of Gehenna being called a lake, or burning with brimstone, then I am perfectly willing to change my mind. Until then, this is how I and others understand it, just as you understand it differently, based on the evidence you see. :friendstu:
I don't mean to reject the way people thought back then, but given the fact that I came out of a LONG thousand year tradition of how people understood these terms, I just prefer to connect the dots myself to see a pattern.
For example, Gehenna being a pit or a prison (I would see that as slavery to the carnal nature) does not disqualify it from representing the same things as a lake in another part of scripture. In one part of scripture, God is a lion. In another part, he is a lamb. In one part of scripture, man himself is a fire. In another, he is as crashing waves.
I believe the threads are connected clearly enough to me. Gehenna may be chosen as a valley to represent LOWNESS. Where a sin can be represented as waves as in Jude, or even clouds to represent instability. Peter himself lost faith in a sea and began to drown before Jesus raised him up. Each image, I believe, represents ASPECTS, while not disqualifying eachother from pointing to one spiritual thing.
QuoteFor example, Gehenna being a pit or a prison (I would see that as slavery to the carnal nature) does not disqualify it from representing the same things as a lake in another part of scripture.
Definitely true.
I never saw Gehenna and Tartarus(the pit) as the same. I thought perhaps tartarus is the place where the rebellious principalities of Jude are bound in chains of "aidos" darkness- a holding tank for arraignment (reserved for judgment(tribunal).
Interestingly enough, Gehenna is only used by Jesus,(discounting repetitions), 3 or 4 times.(& once by james) and it appears to me as mainly spoken against the religious, and their leaders.
If Matthew 25:46 (Lord, Lord.....Depart from me....into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.) refers to Gehenna, then it is more likely to me that Gehenna is often, like the lake of fire, another figure for a particular specific aspect of God's aionian judgment.
For instance, in Rev 20 we see that anyones name who is not written in the lamb,s book of life is cast into the LOF.
Yet, in 1 Cor 3:15 we see that every mans works will be tried by fire for the day shall reveal it and those whose works are burned up will be saved as passing throu fire.
Is this the LOF or Gehenna? I personally dont think it is the LOF. I think it is the judgment seat of Christ where, as Paul says, "We must all give account for the works done in the body", where Jesus, tries the reins and the hearts, separating bone from marrow and discerning the "thoughts and intentions"(true motivations) behind our works done in His name. "Well done you good and faithful servant".
Jesus says, "Everyman will be salted with fire and every sacrifice seasoned with salt"- Is this referring to the LOF? I don't think so, I think it a general figure for the working's of God in man, and the reason for our lives on earth- to be "salted with fire", the process whereby God deals with EVERY LIFE to draw men from darkness to light....to be "to be seasoned with salt", the process whereby God transforms "every sacrifice"(disciple/believer) into the image of Christ.
Gehenna on the other hand has the figurative identity of a place where detestable things, organic refuse, corpses of dead animals were burned.
There there is the figure of the "threshing floor" where wheat is separated from chaff(by beating) and the chaff is gathered by the winnowing fork and burned with unquenchable fire.
The figure of the Vine where the branches that have "withered" are cut off, gathered and burned in the fire- -
In Rev 14 we see the "cup of the wine of the fury of God" being "tormented" with fire and brimstone "in the presence of God and His holy angels". This is interesting to me, because, if you have read Jukes on this, he points out that "theion"(brimstone), godfire, was used by the Greeks to purify their vessels of worship in pagan rituals and was, if not common usage- a clearly known and used word.
If someone believes all these are purely figurative I have less problem with that than with the idea that they all refer to the LOF.
I think there are figurative elements, and also references to several different applications of judgment/discernment/tribunal in the age to come.
I think THEY ALL SHARE COMMON ELEMENTS OF WHAT THE FIRE OF GOD REPRESENTS about how God judges; purifies; transforms; translates darkness into light. These shared elements do not necessarily identify these figures as one particular experience or another, because ALL OF GOD"S ACTS EXTEND FROM HIS WAYS, His divine nature, His character.
I personally think the urge to categorize things "seen through a glass darkly" often obscures the revelation of the Spirit which is renewing the mind more into wind and water and fire than into stone
In other words, I think these verses are more intended to communicate spiritual truths about God and man and spiritual reality than to educate us as to the specifics of whether this is that or that is this in this age or the next. :o)
I just want to say that Jesus warned BOTH his disciples and the Pharisees about Gehenna. It wasn't just to the religious leaders, but to lowly fishermen disciples too. For all have sinned and all have a carnal nature.
To me, the general usage of fire in regard to both 1 Cor 3, and the "day of the Lord" is the concept of destruction. And I think that concept (of destruction) is available through both passages and through all the teachings of the Apostles concerning "the day of the Lord."
1 Thess 5:
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly
that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;
and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
So what the real question is, does the Lake of Fire have anything to do with "the day of the Lord" that we are looking to? If so, then I see no reason why the Lake of Fire would not refer to destruction, not simply shedding light on something, but destruction that is like travail on a woman with child, that those, who today are speaking "peace and safety," will not escape from. It's the opposite of peace and of safety. Gehenna speaks to a kind of destruction. I believe outer darkness does too. And fire, what better symbol for destruction than the one that comes from our own mouths?
When I see this I believe it speaks to "the day of the Lord" and look how Christ references two kinds of
SERVANTS:
Matthew 25
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
And I also think the following is a reference to it (and this is speaking to apostles):
Luke 12
4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to
cast into Gehenna; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Since James provides a clear interpretive teaching on fire and Gehenna being connected to service of sin, I think Christ's meaning here goes beyond the physical realm of "killing" but that we should fear whoever has both the power to kill and after killing, has the power to cast into that experience. As far as I know, in Christ's parables, only those who are in the service of the bridegroom, the angels, the servants of God, are the ones who bind anyone up and cast them into the outer darkness, or the fire.
As it happens, Romans 1 provides a good example of how God reveals his wrath from heaven which I believe is a direct reference to Sodom and Gomorrah as with 2 Peter 2, in that he turns man over to the defile themselves and "receive in themselves the due penalty for their error." If Romans 1 signifies anything to me, is that God has the power both to kill and to cast into Gehenna. Christ's multiple references to Gehenna and language of Isaiah 66 which sets the worm in contrast to the "new heavens and the new earth" is a clear connective tissue to how Christ is referencing the differences between New Jerusalem and Gehenna.
QuoteIf Matthew 25:46 (Lord, Lord.....Depart from me....into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.) refers to Gehenna, then it is more likely to me that Gehenna is often, like the lake of fire, another figure for a particular specific aspect of God's aionian judgment.
:iagree:
QuoteIn Rev 14 we see the "cup of the wine of the fury of God" being "tormented" with fire and brimstone "in the presence of God and His holy angels". This is interesting to me, because, if you have read Jukes on this, he points out that "theion"(brimstone), godfire, was used by the Greeks to purify their vessels of worship in pagan rituals and was, if not common usage- a clearly known and used word.
I agree, and I consider that the Prodigal Son was purified by his own demise. It caused humility. I don't believe that destruction and purification are mutually opposing concepts. When God turned Israel over to Babylon he said it would result in their repentance after 70 years. How is that not a refining fire?
Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and [d]unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
The Question I have is how many times.
How many times to you have to give in to your fears ,
to become a COWARD
How many times to you have to say or do something immoral,
to become an immoral person.
Either we all go or no one goes.
QuoteEither we all go or no one goes.
I believe you have given judgment to yourself. God decides who has inherited the kingdom of God and who has not.
1 Cor 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Revelation 21
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Peter himself, while speaking on the day of the Lord, defines the terms of what constitutes someone headed for destruction.
2 Peter 2
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of..
..9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
The eventuality of everyones salvation is not the question. But it's clear to me that there is a judgment some will receive as opposed to the faithful. God has NOT appointed his elect to wrath.
Peter on the day of the Lord
2 Peter 3
7 By the same word (which brought the deluge) the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 10the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
I believe Peter is quoting scripture here, using a pattern of Old Testament language, and we can find usages of this kind of language in prophecies of judgment. There is so much figurative language in the following verse, I could go on for days about what I think it means:
Nahum 1
The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The Lord takes vengeance on his foes and vents his wrath against his enemies. 3 The Lord is slow to anger but great in power; the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished. His way is in the whirlwind and the storm, and clouds are the dust of his feet. 4 He rebukes the sea and dries it up; he makes all the rivers run dry. Bashan and Carmel wither and the blossoms of Lebanon fade.5 The mountains quake before him and the hills melt away.
The earth trembles at his presence, the world and all who live in it. 6 Who can withstand his indignation? Who can endure his fierce anger? His wrath is poured out like fire; the rocks are shattered before him. 7 The Lord is good, a refuge in times of trouble.He cares for those who trust in him, 8 but with an overwhelming flood he will make an end of Nineveh; he will pursue his foes into the realm of darkness.
9 Whatever they plot against the Lord he will bring to an end; trouble will not come a second time.
10 They will be entangled among thorns and drunk from their wine; they will be consumed like dry stubble.
11 From you, Nineveh, has one come forth who plots evil against the Lord and devises wicked plans.
The same breath that brought forth the Flood brings the fire. And, I think there is a pretty strong possibility here that the "melting of hills" and shattering of rocks, symbolizes God's intentions to be bringing down the high and mighty who are devising plans against him. So what method will he bring this hill melting, rock shattering wrath upon Ninevah?
I believe he sends a destroying fire to sift through and find flammable materials.
Jeremiah 22
6For thus saith the LORD unto the king's house of Judah; Thou art Gilead unto me, and the head of Lebanon: yet surely I will make thee a wilderness, and cities which are not inhabited. 7And I will prepare destroyers against thee, every one with his weapons: and they shall cut down thy choice cedars, and cast them into the fire.
The fire that God sends seeks to DESTROY houses. Fire LOVES flammable material to greaten itself and consume. So, it goes about the land and finds a New Jerusalemite house. Nope, can't burn that, because of non flammable materials (gems and gold). It survived the test. Moving on to the next house and ... lo and behold ... finds a house made of wood. That's perfect for burning. Now, the destroying fire has done the work, testing and sifting through all the buildings and burning the bad ones. The METHOD of this burning is, I believe, to turn them over to their wicked works, strong delusion to believe a lie and be judged for those who had pleasure in unrighteousness, deception, darkness, wine for being drunken and exposing nakedness, being entangled in a snare etc etc
Isaiah 49
5 But this is what the Lord says: "Yes, captives will be taken from warriors, and plunder retrieved from the fierce; I will contend with those who contend with you, and your children I will save. 26 I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine. Then all mankind will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."
He tends to judge people by making them DRUNK ON THEMSELVES, feeding them wine which makes them go mad. To be consumed like dry stubble, and finally come to nothing. Boy does that remind me of Romans 1.
1 Cor 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Remember, Satan is the one who desired to sift Peter. What does the fire do? It sifts. It finds both good and bad materials, leaves the good materials alone, but burns the bad ones. Satan is used by God in the Bible to judge nations, to deceive them, and Paul says that in the day of the Lord, the "peace and safety" crowd, they SHALL NOT escape sudden destruction. So their works will not be burned up by standing on the sidelines. They will not escape. Peter says that the elements will melt. The word "elements" refers to elementary, basic governing principles the world, not to helium and titanium. Do a search for how that term is used across the New Testament and it shows that it refers to governing laws and principles of the world, not physical elements.
Colossians 2:20
20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
We aren't dead in Christ from the heliums and titaniums of the world, but from the GOVERNING elements, the rudimentary principles of the world that people follow. I believe when Peter is talking about the earth burning up, he is talking about a spiritual thing, because just as Paul spoke about there is a fire which shall burn works, that "fire" will also dissolve the elementary principles of the earth that people live according to, because it will all be brought to nothing. All humbled.
It will put an end to devious plans.
This is why I believe Peter says "Seeing then that all THESE things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought YE to be in all holy conversation and godliness?" The reason he asks this, I believe, is because of what we hope for: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."
In other words, the elect are not looking forward to being burned up by a destroying fire, but are looking for new heaven and earth WHERE RIGHTEOUSNESS DWELLS to be their sanctuary. Those who have produced talents, will be ushered into this city, and for everyone else, there is a destroyer that seeks after them to burn and destroy them, and leave them with nothing left. He seeks to make them drunk and mad and "eat their own flesh." As I think about the prodigal experience, I see a dissolving of the elements and a destruction of works. He labors in his own sin, never happy, never satisfied, until, when he is humbled, HE LEAVES the elements behind. His works are all burned up and his house has come down upon his head. His next action is to go AWAY from his current destroyed position, and return to his father. Where does righteousness dwell? In New Jerusalem? What is outside? Death. How to get out of death? Come drink the water of life.
...In My Father's Household there are many Places in which to tarry and dwell; if not, I would have told you...
Quote from: dajomaco on September 15, 2014, 11:11:10 PM
Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and [d]unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
The Question I have is how many times.
How many times to you have to give in to your fears ,
to become a COWARD
How many times to you have to say or do something immoral,
to become an immoral person.
Either we all go or no one goes.
I believe that quote is the statement that outside of God (who is Life and Perfection, surely?) is to be
outside of the city..
outside of the blessings..
outside.
..it's my belief that's what we're learning.. to not be
with God, is to be
outside...
Once one "believes" it's a whole new ball game.. as Jesus said "he.she who believes in me will never die" (be outside, because they "believe" and thus adhere.. works showing their faith..
That's why I believe it's at the end of judgment (review?) day that it is said "those not believing will go to the 2nd death" (2nd
outside of life)
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 14, 2014, 10:58:00 PM
I can appreciate how you as well as others can come to that conclusion. I believe that other evidences point to it being specifically the Dead Sea, while Gehenna (which is a valley, not a lake or sea) is a picture of something different. That it is a THE lake burning of two substances...דנורא וכבריתא...of fire and brimstone, I believe would have spoken clearly to them of only one place.
:thumbsup:
Gehenna, Gehinnom and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the
Valley of the Son of Hinnom;
one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old CityGehenna (Greek γέεννα), Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום); one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.
In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6). T
hereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[1]In Jewish, Christian, and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[2] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead,
though the King James version of the Bible translates both usually with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.
I agree with that view of Gehenna. Gehenna is associated with idol worship.
Deuteronomy 4
21Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance: 22But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land. 23Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. 24For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
25When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: 26I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
Jesus told us not to go there....
Stay in the good land.
Quote from: rosered on September 16, 2014, 04:18:51 PM
Gehenna, Gehinnom and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom; one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old CityGehenna (Greek γέεννα), Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום); one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.
In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6). Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[1]
In Jewish, Christian, and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[2] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both usually with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.
thus a very fitting place/valley for the final battle of good vs evil to take place..
Amen, my bible dictionary says
Armegeddon is "Hinnom" - "a valley south and west of Jerusalem where Molech was worshipped"Joel 3:14 - King James Version (KJV)
14 "
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision."..."
and the armies of the world.. gathered for (H)Armageddon.." Rev. 16;14,15,16 ..at Gehenna..
Armageddon Strong's #717 "symbol name, 2022 and 4023" - #2022 - "pour upon" - #4023 - "contain, astonish"
.."
He comes with angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8 (but which i believe is the fire of man's own doing, the splitting of the atom.. the final war in man's God-less, or seeming to go their own way, history)
Hi Seth. Iwwould disagree thatt James offerrs "Aclear interrpretive teaaching on Gehenna. IMO it is a one verse statement in a ppoetic exhorttation about the carnal mind. But even if it were an "interpretive teaching" itt is certainly nott comprehensive, nor is it "limitiing" in considering the other verses related to it and the literal AND figurative implications of those scriptures.
When Jesus discusses the judgment in Matt 25:46- many on that day will say Lord,LORD! DIDNT WE???
They will be cast into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Do u c that fire as purely figuative? Related to Gehenna? Do u c Gehenna as purely figurative in terms of reaping and sowing? Do you see Gehenna and/or theLOF having a real manifestation inn the age to ccome?
I ask because it seems to me you are building a case for a purely figurative appplication in te present life and I could be misunderstanding you.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 17, 2014, 12:16:18 AM
Hi Seth. Iwwould disagree thatt James offerrs "Aclear interrpretive teaaching on Gehenna. IMO it is a one verse statement in a ppoetic exhorttation about the carnal mind. But even if it were an "interpretive teaching" itt is certainly nott comprehensive, nor is it "limitiing" in considering the other verses related to it and the literal AND figurative implications of those scriptures.
When Jesus discusses the judgment in Matt 25:46- many on that day will say Lord,LORD! DIDNT WE???
They will be cast into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Do u c that fire as purely figuative? Related to Gehenna? Do u c Gehenna as purely figurative in terms of reaping and sowing? Do you see Gehenna and/or theLOF having a real manifestation inn the age to ccome?
I ask because it seems to me you are building a case for a purely figurative appplication in te present life and I could be misunderstanding you.
No NOT the present life only. I think you asked me this before, right?
James is referring to the tongue as a fire. And Jesus says if your appendages offend, cut them off and throw them outside into Gehenna rather than have your whole body there (that spiritual condition) and ENTER into the kingdom of heaven with one eye, and no hands etc. So we see an application of Gehenna to be used by the disciples today UP UNTO entering into the Kingdom of God. AND ALSO the day of the Lord.
What I have always said is that there is a COMING day of the Lord by which God's angels will throw the tares into this fire (all spiritual, yes). BUT, we can see the operations of that occurring today. We can even see that in the Old Testament, how God uses sin to judge the sinner, turn them over to idols.
I see a spiritual meaning, but that does not mean I see it only for today.
In other words a figurative application does not mean for this life only. I believe ALL the parable s are figurative, but that doesn't mean I think it only applies to this life. The day of the Lord is for a coming "destruction of ungodly men" but I see spiritual application to that and a figurative understanding of fire.
It was my understanding that pretty much all UR believers understood the figurative application of physical symbols.
Quote from: Seth on September 15, 2014, 11:32:55 PM
QuoteEither we all go or no one goes.
I believe you have given judgment to yourself. God decides who has inherited the kingdom of God and who has not.
1 Cor 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Revelation 21
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Peter himself, while speaking on the day of the Lord, defines the terms of what constitutes someone headed for destruction.
2 Peter 2
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of....9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
The eventuality of everyones salvation is not the question. But it's clear to me that there is a judgment some will receive as opposed to the faithful. God has NOT appointed his elect to wrath.
Am I right in assuming you have judge yourself not to be one of these.
What I would need to do is what Peter said,
2 Peter 1
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I believe Jesus in his parables compared it to servants who are given a certain amount of talents and the master wished for them to multiply the talent. The servants who did so, who added talents to their initial amount of talents, were welcomed. The servant who buried his talent into the earth (which I believe symbolizes walking according to the flesh, the earth representing darkness and physicality in this case), were themselves delivered into darkness.
Christ finishes his parable by saying "those who have much shall be given, those who have not, even what they have shall be taken away." In context, I think he means, those who don't produce from the initial giving, even what they have will be taken away. I believe this has something to do with God sending "strong delusion" in the Day of the Lord.
Much much Grace I have been freely given.
Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching (paiduo - chastening) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
If any have been given grace, let us also walk according to it, and despise not the chastening of the Lord.
Quote from: Seth on September 17, 2014, 10:27:59 PM
What I would need to do is what Peter said,
2 Peter 1
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I believe Jesus in his parables compared it to servants who are given a certain amount of talents and the master wished for them to multiply the talent. The servants who did so, who added talents to their initial amount of talents, were welcomed. The servant who buried his talent into the earth (which I believe symbolizes walking according to the flesh, the earth representing darkness and physicality in this case), were themselves delivered into darkness.
Christ finishes his parable by saying "those who have much shall be given, those who have not, even what they have shall be taken away." In context, I think he means, those who don't produce from the initial giving, even what they have will be taken away. I believe this has something to do with God sending "strong delusion" in the Day of the Lord.
1 Cor 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day[g] will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,[h] but only as through fire.
I also think it also refers to the judgment seat of Christ, which, imo, begins during life but is concluded after after physical death. The Day of the Lord also includes aionian kolassis, administered in the next life(imo). There are figurative statements about these judgments, but there are also direct historical statements about them as to where they occur in the "administration of the fulness of times"- first resurrection, second resurrection, second death, etc. "In the Day" covers a broad range of application.
"I have determined to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh(this life) so that his spirit may be saved in the Day(next life)" 1 Cor 5:5
In Matthew 25:31-46 there is a correlation with Romans 2
Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,
then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:Rom 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
5 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment(aionios kolassis): but the righteous into life eternal(aionios zoe).
Aionios coming from "olam"- which means the world to come, or the world beyond the horizon and not necessarily "age-during".
"The wrath to come" includes more than consequences reaped in this life as I read the scriptures.
John, I agree that there is a coming day called "the day of the Lord." The specific references to the day of the Lord as called out by the Apostles include Satan, a thief in the night, "the destruction of ungodly men," a destruction which those who say peace and safety will not escape from, and 2 Peter 3 shows that the church was expecting a change from how things have continued since the beginning. The day of the Lord will be associated with a great change from how history has progressed before.
So, I agree, it goes well beyond this life. I believe I have made very explicit efforts to clarify that.
Well, I think I am fairly sharp, but I havent seen that you have made explicit efforts to clarify that- more like grudging acknowledgment. I am sorry to harp on it, but all the apostlers have included "the wrath to come" as an important part of the gospel- so, since I see that in UR there is tendency to minimize that messagfe, as if giving attention to it somehow damages the truth of UR(which it doesnt)- I will continue to bring it up :o)
I will make it as clear as possible in bold letters: THERE IS A WRATH TO COME AFTER THIS LIFE.
But I believe we can understand how that wrath plays out by looking at how God has previously judged and how consistent he is with his methods.
My purpose is usually to respond to the general tone of threads, Seth. I also believe that everything that comes to fruition in the judgment to come will have been foreshadowed by the hand of God in this life and the prophetic word.
I do like to note when verses have aionian applications as well as present ones.
If it seems I am trying to "take you on" so to speak, I am sorry- I am not, it's just that you post a lot, so it may seem so, mostly I think we agree on the principles of judgment and discernment. Peace :o)
Ok, cool, I understand the necessity to clarify and I don't want to.communicate against what I actually believe, which can happen with language. I am open to suggestions about what I can do to keep it clear.but my clarifications haven't been grudgingly because I actually agree. So rather than grudgingly, it's more and issue of clarifications. It's not a sore point with me to admit what I already actually believe.
Quote from: Seth on September 17, 2014, 11:23:08 PM
Ok, cool, I understand the necessity to clarify and I don't want to.communicate against what I actually believe, which can happen with language. I am open to suggestions about what I can do to keep it clear.but my clarifications haven't been grudgingly because I actually agree. So rather than grudgingly, it's more and issue of clarifications. It's not a sore point with me to admit what I already actually believe.
I hav never felt there were any sore points there. Just trying to maintain my point of view in short clear bursts since i don't always hav tons of time. Might make me seem abrupt. :gimmefive:
Word :friendstu: : :HeartThrob:
Another point I don't want to miscommunicate, which goes all the way back to the OP, is that God is quick tempered. I think God gets a false rap for being quick tempered because thousands of years are condensed into a single book. I think it takes alot, that is ALOT to anger God. He is very slow to anger and abundant in mercy.
And because I know that he has perfect foreknowledge, his wrath is not the result of being thrown off and unstable due to an unexpected event. But from the human perspective, I believe it took much of continual stubborn, idol worship over several, even hundreds of years, for God to finally pull the plug, and that was for only 70 years. For the Israelites in the desert it was 40 years. Not BILLIONS. So when you compare the sins to the judgment, I think it shows a merciful God who is not quick to be offended or afflict, and doesn't carry his judgments longer than a reasonable amount of time.
If I recall I read that there there were even 400 years between Malachi and Matthew, where nothing happened at all. For the current Christian, I believe you would have to do a FULL reversal into a life of sin and just rejecting growth in grace. I don't think the coming wrath is intended for people who are growing in grace and make a mistake, get back on track, have a desire for obedience but aren't perfect.
Again, I think it takes ALOT of persistent disobedience for him to bring it to the level of wrath.
And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
Quote from: Seth on September 17, 2014, 11:49:57 PM
Another point I don't want to miscommunicate, which goes all the way back to the OP, is that God is quick tempered. I think God gets a false rap for being quick tempered because thousands of years are condensed into a single book. I think it takes alot, that is ALOT to anger God. He is very slow to anger and abundant in mercy.
And because I know that he has perfect foreknowledge, his wrath is not the result of being thrown off and unstable due to an unexpected event. But from the human perspective, I believe it took much of continual stubborn, idol worship over several, even hundreds of years, for God to finally pull the plug, and that was for only 70 years. For the Israelites in the desert it was 40 years. Not BILLIONS. So when you compare the sins to the judgment, I think it shows a merciful God who is not quick to be offended or afflict, and doesn't carry his judgments longer than a reasonable amount of time.
If I recall I read that there there were even 400 years between Malachi and Matthew, where nothing happened at all. For the current Christian, I believe you would have to do a FULL reversal into a life of sin and just rejecting growth in grace. I don't think the coming wrath is intended for people who are growing in grace and make a mistake, get back on track, have a desire for obedience but aren't perfect.
Again, I think it takes ALOT of persistent disobedience for him to bring it to the level of wrath.
:iagree: :iagree: ...I don't thnk most ppl realize.. and I believe it's in psalms somewhere.. 106 or 116 or a psalm with 6 in it? that says the last straw with God was the children of Israel offering babes to Molech/Baal (r they they same, different language? i can't remember) by putting them live into fire..
Now I ask, what God worth His salt
wouldn't be angry over that? live little babies put into fire.. and a note I'm sure you've heard of, after that fiasco God said "such a thing never came up into MY heart"! -- they didnt' get that idea (fire consuming, burning) from Me!! He said..