Can a believer go to the Lake of Fire?

[Seth]

As an understanding of what I mean, I could put it this way.

All of that which is in the promised land is bound up in my experience of God and his Son, the tangible reality of that land.

If I experience a hatred for God and act wickedly in a love of darkness, then my experience of God here as well as in the future could be likened to Gehinnom, or the marshes and swamps in the Dead Sea region.

If I experience periods of wondering where God is, and being in need of hearing from him, then my experience of God could be likened to the Arabah wilderness.

If I experience times of closeness with God, peace and communion, what some would call 'mountaintop experiences', then my experience of God could be likened to Jerusalem.

If I experience refreshment and tranquility with God, then my experience of God could be likened to the waters coming from Mount Herman.

If I experience times of overflowing abundance, then my experience of God could be likened to the overflowing Jordan river during the rainy season.

If I experience times of apprehending and understanding more of our Savior and Master Yeshua through meditation and study, I can liken that to the iron and copper in the hills waiting to be found.

This is the sum of what I see as being in the New Jerusalem, being in outer darkness, being in Gehenna, the lake of fire, the holy mountain, or any of the other myriads of pictures Father has painted for us. These are the experiences of the same God, expressed in the many varied ways.

Well I definitely see the source as being God. For as Peter put it, when he said that "they shall utterly perish in their own corruption" he likened that to the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah of which fire came from heaven. Same thing in Romans 1, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven....he turned them over to a corrupt mind to receive in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Babylon is a gold cup in the Lord's hand.

[rosered]

Why is it hard to see the elect as special? I ask that as someone who does not claim to be the elect. But I think clearly that God has set aside unto himself a peculiar people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood.

Didn't Jacob have a dream about the grain bowing down and was admonished by his own father?

1 Peter 1:2, one becomes elect through the blood of Jesus Christ.  by faith in Him

  ok   I retract   Seth  sorry  :sigh:

[Seth]

And all of those, both being IN the city, and being OUTSIDE the city, is not speaking about those who are in God and those who are out of God, as though God is confined to the space we call the New Jerusalem, for he is depicted in type and shadow as the ENTIRE promised land, not just Jerusalem. The darkness people experience is the experience of those in God, in whom they live and move and have their being, yet do so in the darkness of those who's eyes are closed to the reality. This is not a literal darkness in God, for none exists in him.

This is why Yeshua commissioned Paul to 'open the eyes of the Gentiles, turning them from DARKNESS', a darkness caused by closed eyes, a perception, not a true reality.

Right. That is why people in the LOF are tormented in the presence of the lamb. But they do not see him. They are in darkness. They are staggered drunk on the wine of the wrath of God which he gives to Babylon, and Babylon will topple.

ok   I retract   Seth  sorry  :sigh:

Not a problem. Just a discussion.  :friendstu:

[sheila]

all mankind is elected to be formed in 'our image'..but each in his own order........

   LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.....but that the choosing and calling not be dependant

  on anything other then God's choice..the first Adam..of whom sin entered was rejected..but

  the last Adam[Christ image] was called chosen and elected...each in his order......

   and as we have all bore the image of the corrupt one[Adam whom through sin entered and

  death through sin]  so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt one.

[Seth]

all mankind is elected to be formed in 'our image'..but each in his own order........

   LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.....but that the choosing and calling not be dependant

  on anything other then God's choice..the first Adam..of whom sin entered was rejected..but

  the last Adam[Christ image] was called chosen and elected...each in his order......

   and as we have all bore the image of the corrupt one[Adam whom through sin entered and

  death through sin]  so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt one.

:iagree:

[Seth]

Hi Rose, I just wanted to clarify some points

But I believe   a few of us  are talking   that nothing is impossible for God and is all in all     
  and yet you are giving us the  sequence in which   God will be all in all     
  and both    ways are   right , but  have just skipped though the process ?    :friendstu:

Maybe that is the case. I understand how people understand how God is already all in all. I have my own way of understanding it. But I think, hopefully, we all agree that God will be all in all through an "each man unto his order" process.

the Lake of Fire has very little  said about it  , Just as Micah    gave those verses   in TWO   places 1 Cor 3 and Rev 20

Don't forget Revelation 14. And I think these are are references to Old Testament scriptures which can provide explanation of what is being signified.

Also, as I have been saying, it's important not only to look at the small bit about the LOF, but the great amount of information about New Jerusalem IN CONTRAST to the LOF.

it has to do with death and we know    hell/ Gehenna  and death are cast into the lake of fire  ?

It's important to note that HADES is cast into the LOF. So I see it as death and the grave cast into Gehenna. And I see that in relation to how Babylon is a cup in God's hand, and makes the nations drunk, but Babylon itself is falling, falling, falling until it will be no more.

and   you  have  said its Gehenna      outside the gates  of Jerusalem

  yes but   are you are calling the lake of fire,  Gehenna,  a specific  place  ?

No definitely not. I am saying they are symbols. Starting with New Jerusalem, it symbolizes the people of God as God resides in his people through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Gehenna I believe to represent the opposite. It is the wine of God's wrath (not the water of life) which causes men to make themselves naked that God will expose the nakedness. I see it as a Prodigal Son experience, until repentance comes unto life.

I may internalize a lot    , ingesting  the scriptures
  For this i apologize  to you   
I am listening to the best of my ability     :HeartThrob:

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. I have enjoyed discussing this with you.

[sheila]

confession time.....when I hear people saying' but we are the elect" as if they are somehow

  better then other men..I WANT TO PUKE!!  it's the free gift..the seed given unto us..or

we would be just like Sodom and Gomorrha.

   none of us are any better...we just are in a better covenant...and that not of ourselves...

   on top of this you have arrogant usurpers men without the spirit arrogantly ,not called of God,

  but in fact called of satan and men,who has transformed himself into an angel of light with a

blasphemous gospel..that is in fact darkness[if the light that be in you be darkness,how great

that darkness!

   therefore, I am put off by any appearance of boasting..sanctimoniousness..self-righteousness

  etc and etc.  that's where I'm at.....

[rosered]

Hi Rose, I just wanted to clarify some points

But I believe   a few of us  are talking   that nothing is impossible for God and is all in all     
  and yet you are giving us the  sequence in which   God will be all in all     
  and both    ways are   right , but  have just skipped though the process ?    :friendstu:

Maybe that is the case. I understand how people understand how God is already all in all. I have my own way of understanding it. But I think, hopefully, we all agree that God will be all in all through an "each man unto his order" process.

the Lake of Fire has very little  said about it  , Just as Micah    gave those verses   in TWO   places 1 Cor 3 and Rev 20

Don't forget Revelation 14. And I think these are are references to Old Testament scriptures which can provide explanation of what is being signified.

Also, as I have been saying, it's important not only to look at the small bit about the LOF, but the great amount of information about New Jerusalem IN CONTRAST to the LOF.

it has to do with death and we know    hell/ Gehenna  and death are cast into the lake of fire  ?

It's important to note that HADES is cast into the LOF. So I see it as death and the grave cast into Gehenna. And I see that in relation to how Babylon is a cup in God's hand, and makes the nations drunk, but Babylon itself is falling, falling, falling until it will be no more.

and   you  have  said its Gehenna      outside the gates  of Jerusalem

  yes but   are you are calling the lake of fire,  Gehenna,  a specific  place  ?

No definitely not. I am saying they are symbols. Starting with New Jerusalem, it symbolizes the people of God as God resides in his people through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Gehenna I believe to represent the opposite. It is the wine of God's wrath (not the water of life) which causes men to make themselves naked that God will expose the nakedness. I see it as a Prodigal Son experience, until repentance comes unto life.

I may internalize a lot    , ingesting  the scriptures
  For this i apologize  to you   
I am listening to the best of my ability     :HeartThrob:

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. I have enjoyed discussing this with you.

  :iagree:  and yes  indeed the fulfillment of Babylon !!


Thanks Seth , It has been a   wonderful  discussion    and got a lot out of it       from everyone 


I love your  perseverance  brother    ! its refreshing   
   

[Seth]

confession time.....when I hear people saying' but we are the elect" as if they are somehow

  better then other men..I WANT TO PUKE!!  it's the free gift..the seed given unto us..or

we would be just like Sodom and Gomorrha.

   none of us are any better...we just are in a better covenant...and that not of ourselves...

   on top of this you have arrogant usurpers men without the spirit arrogantly ,not called of God,

  but in fact called of satan and men,who has transformed himself into an angel of light with a

blasphemous gospel..that is in fact darkness[if the light that be in you be darkness,how great

that darkness!

   therefore, I am put off by any appearance of boasting..sanctimoniousness..self-righteousness

  etc and etc.  that's where I'm at.....

It's like I always say, It's presumptuous to claim a crown before finishing the race.  :laughing7: But, I don't think it is wrong to hope for the elect. After all, Peter says to make your calling and election sure. I hope I have not come across as claiming a crown before finishing the race, because that's not my intention, and if so, it's accidental.

[Seth]

No problem, Rose. I love discussing it with other brothers and sisters as I feel I learn something new every time I talk to you guys.

[rosered]

confession time.....when I hear people saying' but we are the elect" as if they are somehow

  better then other men..I WANT TO PUKE!!  it's the free gift..the seed given unto us..or

we would be just like Sodom and Gomorrha.

   none of us are any better...we just are in a better covenant...and that not of ourselves...

   on top of this you have arrogant usurpers men without the spirit arrogantly ,not called of God,

  but in fact called of satan and men,who has transformed himself into an angel of light with a

blasphemous gospel..that is in fact darkness[if the light that be in you be darkness,how great

that darkness!

   therefore, I am put off by any appearance of boasting..sanctimoniousness..self-righteousness

  etc and etc.  that's where I'm at.....

:iagree:     I do believe they are of the Babylon spirit     and will be  dealt with     justly
  God is fair and just      and Christ died for all  !!!   
I come out of   her      gladly   sista    , that was a cup of suffering    never want to experience again   :sigh:!!!        but that is another topic   for another  time God willing   :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

 I'm sensitized to it,Seth.  and didn't mean to put you down in any way. :friendstu:  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

No problem, Rose. I love discussing it with other brothers and sisters as I feel I learn something new every time I talk to you guys.

  Yes when the Holy Spirit moves we all get to breath  ''fresh ''  again   Lord revive us again ,   I have been in a dry spell for a bit   

  Psalms  85

...5Will You be angry with us forever? Will You prolong Your anger to all generations?

6Will You not Yourself revive us again,

That Your people may rejoice in You?

7Show us Your lovingkindness, O LORD, And grant us Your salvation

[micah7:9]

No problem, Rose. I love discussing it with other brothers and sisters as I feel I learn something new every time I talk to you guys.

  Yes when the Holy Spirit moves we all get to breath  "fresh "  again   Lord revive us again ,   I have been in a dry spell for a bit   

  Psalms  85

...5Will You be angry with us forever? Will You prolong Your anger to all generations?

6Will You not Yourself revive us again,

That Your people may rejoice in You?

7Show us Your lovingkindness, O LORD, And grant us Your salvation

"I have been in a dry spell for a bit  " Rose that is a wonderful place to be! Fill my cup Lord!
It is very hard, near impossible to fill a filled cup.
Gen 37:24  And they took him, and cast him into a pit: and the pit was empty, there was no water in it.
Gen 37:25  And they sat down to eat bread: and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and, behold, a company of Ishmeelites came from Gilead with their camels bearing spicery and balm and myrrh, going to carry it down to Egypt.
Gen 37:26  And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood?
Gen 37:27  Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content.

What became of Joseph?

[rosered]

No problem, Rose. I love discussing it with other brothers and sisters as I feel I learn something new every time I talk to you guys.

  Yes when the Holy Spirit moves we all get to breath  "fresh "  again   Lord revive us again ,   I have been in a dry spell for a bit   

  Psalms  85

...5Will You be angry with us forever? Will You prolong Your anger to all generations?

6Will You not Yourself revive us again,

That Your people may rejoice in You?

7Show us Your lovingkindness, O LORD, And grant us Your salvation

"I have been in a dry spell for a bit  " Rose that is a wonderful place to be! Fill my cup Lord!
It is very hard, near impossible to fill a filled cup.
Gen 37:24  And they took him, and cast him into a pit: and the pit was empty, there was no water in it.
Gen 37:25  And they sat down to eat bread: and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and, behold, a company of Ishmeelites came from Gilead with their camels bearing spicery and balm and myrrh, going to carry it down to Egypt.
Gen 37:26  And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood?
Gen 37:27  Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content.

What became of Joseph?

  Thank you Micah    :friendstu:    You are right   ,  the Lord must fill   !

  Joseph  become   very useful in saving the Israelites , helping his brothers  ,  during the  great  famine of that time .

  What they meant for evil God made it good  :icon_flower:

[micah7:9]

To quote an Pentecostal expression.......AIN'T GOD GOOD!  :dsunny:

[joeteekay]

 :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Psa 18:11  He maketh darkness His secret place, Round about Him His tabernacle, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.

Psa 91:1  He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2  I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust.
Psa 91:3  For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.

Just a thought :Peace2:

Darkness as compared to light of man. But when Apostle John says that "he is the light, and no darkness is in him" I think he is talking about a different kind of darkness.

Col 1:16  because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17  and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.[/b]

[Seth]

I guess Apostle John stands corrected.

[sheila]

what is darker then the blindness of men.....surely you are a God who hides himself.......

  thinking of the HOH with the curtained off area..the cherub wings and shekinah.....

    the revelation of Christ is also the revealing of the Father unto us....the opening of our blind

  eyes

[Seth]

I agree. I believe there is a difference between God's all encompassing nature, his corporate church as the body of Christ, and his personal identity as the light and in him is no darkness.

[micah7:9]

I guess Apostle John stands corrected.

The Apostle John needs no correction.

Psalm 139
Rotherham(i) 12 Even darkness, will not conceal from thee,—but, night, like day, will shine, So is the darkness, as the light!

12 Even darkness, it is not darkening to You,
And the night, as the day, is giving light;
as Darkness is as light.(Concordant)

[Seth]

1 John 1
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

-------

Psalm 135
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell (Sheol - the grave), behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness (of the grave) shall cover me; even the night shall be light (God) about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Seems to me that Psalm 135 is talking about how God regards death as nothing which cannot be eradicated by his own light. If God is with David in the grave, then though he may be dead, that darkness is as light to God because God holds the power over death, and so even that darkness is as light to me.

I see nothing in Psalm 135 that says that there is darkness in God which is considered as light to him. The darkness surrounds DAVID.

[eaglesway]

imo there are many things for which darkness is a metaphor.

One is wickedness.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Another is mystery.

6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

He gives wisdom to wise men
And knowledge to men of understanding.
"It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things;
He knows what is in the darkness,
And the light dwells with Him.


Another is chaos/judgment

Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the Lord.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Another is death.

To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death"

Another is stubborn ignorance.

Then I saw that wisdom excells folly, as far as light excells darkness.

"If you were blind you would have no sin. Because you say you see, your sin remains."

Another is hatred

The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.  But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.


When John says "God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all", he is speaking of love and righteousness(light) versus hate and wickedness(darkness).

[sheila]

Praising that appearing of the Holy city..with the light of love coming/shining forth  into

the darkness,from it's gates...saying Come!

   The hounds of hell,hear thier bay

   over distant fields they lay.

   Listen..as they seek you out....with nostrils flared on their snout

  your scent theyv'e caught..they turn your way

   to seek you out where they lay

   the hounds of hell are baying,hear the call of the pack

   Gnashing teeth,growling throats..ears lying back

   the city gate,lies ahead..and beckons with a glow

   a warm embrace awaits you there,a feast a sumptous meal...

   the hounds of hell..are thwarted..and quickly turn on heel.