Can a believer go to the Lake of Fire?

[Seth]

I just want to take a look at the wine of God's wrath.

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Jeremiah 51
"Flee from Babylon! Run for your lives! Do not be destroyed because of her sins. It is time for the Lord's vengeance; he will repay her what she deserves. 7 Babylon was a gold cup in the Lord's hand; she made the whole earth drunk. The nations drank her wine; therefore they have now gone mad. 8 Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken. Wail over her! Get balm for her pain; perhaps she can be healed. 9 "'We would have healed Babylon, but she cannot be healed; let us leave her and each go to our own land, for her judgment reaches to the skies, it rises as high as the heavens.'

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Lamentations 4
21 Rejoice and be glad, Daughter Edom, you who live in the land of Uz. But to you also the cup will be passed; you will be drunk make thyself naked. 22 Your punishment will end, Daughter Zion; he will not prolong your exile. But he will punish your sin, Daughter Edom, and expose your wickedness.

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Habbukkuk 2
15"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies 16 You will be filled with shame instead of glory. Now it is your turn! Drink and let your nakedness be exposed The cup from the Lord's right hand is coming around to you, and disgrace will cover your glory.

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Revelation 14
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

From what I see in the above scriptures, the wine of God's wrath is to bring about madness and drunkenness, and also nakedness for the purpose of exposing the nakedness. God repays according to our works, which is why he says "woe unto them who gives drink to his neighbors, to expose their nakedness. Now it is your turn. Drink and let your nakedness be exposed." That's being repaid according to your works. This is the connection I see to the torment in the lake of fire, in that though men like to be drunk, they expose their nakedness (sinfulness, not clothed with Christ), and they are in the open. I believe sin causes both drunkenness and torment.

[eaglesway]

Those things are true in general principle. God brings our works upon us. But that is not the limit of it. Those portions of scripture say something that is true- but they are not all that is written on the matter.

"Some men's sins go before them into judgment, some men's sins follow after"

There are those who do not reap the fruit of their sins until the day of God. Many wicked men go to their graves having not yet recieved the fruit of their iniquities. That is why Jesus spoke, as well as the apostles, about fleeing, "the wrath to come"- and "aionian kolassis" and "aionian pur".

First we agree the founding principles of the judgment of God that are always in effect. Then we see the specific applications of those founding principles- and they are applied in various ways appropriate to the purpose of God in the "administration suitable tot he fulness of times"- of which the LOF(imo) is one specific application in the age to come.

[Seth]

I just wanted to clarify, do you think I am speaking about the LOF from a preterist perspective? I don't see it that way. I believe the day of the Lord is still coming. I just have ideas about what mechanisms of that judgement will be and I see some of it in operation today.

[lastpost]

According to the understanding I have been given, this is how it is in the darker regions of the aionios kolasis...

Isaiah 9

...and the people will be fuel for the fire;
    they will not spare one another.

According to my understanding, this is how it is in the not-so-dark regions of the aionios kolasis...

Isaiah 9

On the right they will devour,
    but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
    but not be satisfied.

...and greedy, materialistic, hateful, hedonistic man invites such conditions. And nobody can say that God did not warn them.

The fire that burns in the repentent is of sanctification.

Reverence to He who is saves.

[Seth]

I agree

I think the reason it can be confusing is because John saw a lake of fire. But there are many scriptures that utilize the image of fire to symbolize so many different things. I don't think that they compete with eachother for which one is the LOF. Even though James doesn't see the Bride of Christ as being a fire in that particular part of the vision, I believe that fire can be applied to understand New Jerusalem too.

If God is a fire, then the tree of life is also a fire. But if wickedness is a fire, I believe that speaks to the fire that John saw outside the city in that particular moment in that particular vision. I see the fall of Babylon much like how death is thrown into the lake of fire. The evil that it brings upon itself consumes it until it is nothing.

In another vision, God might represent wickedness itself like being a city, and God's rebuke of that city would be like a fire. So it could be completely reversed and "fire" would still apply to it all, just different ways in different visions.

Heck, in Isaiah 50 we are told to walk in the darkness, because man carries his own light and his own fire. God completely reverses the image of fire and light and darkness to mean opposite things in different parts of the visions. God spends so much time telling us to walk in the light and that God is a fire, then he turns around and tells us to walk in the darkness as concerning the light and fire of men.

[joeteekay]

Jason started this thread which has been one of good debate and opinions of things concerning the LOF.

Heb 9:27 has been referenced to.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

First we die. This is not physical death. We are crucified with Christ. Become a new man. Our death is now in Christ. A death of the old man whom we fight against daily.

1Co_15:31  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

This is when judgement begins for the Elect. We die daily in Christ.

1Pe_4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

We are being judged now and purified by fire, but not the Lake of Fire (IMO)

Rev_2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


The elect shall not be hurt (injured by the second death), which by definition is the LOF.

Hurt (injured) is Strong's G91
ἀδικέω
to do wrong
Strong's:
ἀδικέω
to be unjust, i.e. (actively) do wrong (morally, socially or physically)
KJV Usage: hurt, injure, be an offender, be unjust, (do, suffer, take) wrong.


Rev_20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The Elect are in the first resurrection. Second death (LOF) is not an issue or of relevance to them as we see from Rev. 20:6.


Rev_20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev_21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Yes, in the White Throne Judgement all of the non-elect will be purified with fire like us, but it is the LOF.

Then all will be all in all as we who believe in the salvation of all will occur at the consummation.

[eaglesway]

I just wanted to clarify, do you think I am speaking about the LOF from a preterist perspective? I don't see it that way. I believe the day of the Lord is still coming. I just have ideas about what mechanisms of that judgement will be and I see some of it in operation today.

I wasnt sure. I see it the same. The principles involved in what the LOF will be, are in operation today(exposure of hidden things, penetration of darkness by light, etc.). But I see the LOF as a specific experience of kolassis for unbelievers/adversaries.

[rosered]

because sin enters   the scene
   same as Jesus telling us let your yes be yes and no be no anything  said   more than  yes or no   that EVIL is present
   where does that evil come from  if its present ?   
  So you see why  I am  wondering ?

Its  intense     when studied   in depth   , and this alone can cause   unrest  within  at times , for me anyways 
  guilt shows up and than shame after  :sigh:   a chastening   of Lord no doubt  in my mind

Hi Rose, I think you are referring to Romans 7, which I believe has been misunderstood through the years. Here is what I mean: Yes, evil is present, but the only way it can keep us from doing what we want is if we are under the law. "For sin taking opportunity BY THE COMMANDMENT, slew me."

Romans 7
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Then, Paul goes on to describe what happens when we live by the letter. Some people say that Paul is not describing his current spiritual condition, but nevertheless, he is definitely describing his experience with the Law, lest we fall from grace.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Law cannot do that, and I believe that is Paul's point in Romans 7. Turn the page to Romans 8 and we find this.

Romans 8
8 Therefore there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So, having a carnal nature is not the same as being "carnally minded." Those who are carnally minded, they mind the things of the flesh and walk after the flesh. But those who have the Spirit walk according to the Spirit, so that they don't have to be under the condemnation of wanting to do good but constantly finding evil preventing them from it.

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

What I am saying is that fire is when man is turned over to the carnal nature to be carnally minded. But God, through his Spirit means to save us from that. "For the Spirit and the Bride say come, and he who is athirst, come and drink the water of life freely."

  I hate to back peddle    , but wanted to go ahead and   answer you Seth  , because you went to the trouble of   an answer addressed  to me
  and agree with you  on Romans 7 , showing us the    example of  '' being dead in Christ '', as the law slew  Paul   
  and  the Bride saying come    those whom thirst   drink of the waters of life freely

I appreciate your   detailed  answer
and Do agree  that   the mind or heart of  us all must be captive in Christ   to allow the Spirit     to lead the  body   

  the body is the vehicle      to which    either     one is a  servant to sin   or servant to Christ    , just that simple   and not complicated
   That is why Paul went on to explain   beating his body into subjection     , trying  to get it under control   to be a  good servant to Christ and the higher calling of ministry   spreading the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the grace  that comes   in trials and error .




      1 Corth  9 26  Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;[  or for nothing ]

27  but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

  I have to focus to be able to keep up  :sigh:  and that is 100 %    or    my mind  cannot     participate   in these discussions

  God bless you and all

[rosered]

How many ages/generations of jews who still deny Jesus Christ the last 2000yrs..cut off from grace? still not entered in...those

to whom the promises were covenanted.   Lord,Lord..people can say that in address to God..but deny Jesus Christ...did we

  not cast out demons in your name[ if I cast out demons by the Baezelbub..by whom do your sons cast them out?]  denial

  of Jesus Christ before men..results in denial before His angels[ministering flames] they did not know Him..He did not know them.

   age of law/age of grace..aionian kolassis?AIONIAN CONSEQUENCES?


   THIS IS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD UNTO LIFE{GRACE} WHOEVER CONFESSES JESUS CHRIST THAT WAS CRUCIFIED AND

RESURRECTED HAS RIGHTEOUSNESS.......through grace.

  They will not see Him again until they say 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. is that not 'cut off"?

Hi Shelia      I do believe Paul addresses   this in  Romans 9   Jesus   makes a  short work in righteousness

But  as you can see   here in the  highlighted verses    what results we have  by the WORD OF GOD

   they also would have been as Sodom and Gomorrah[   The fire of Judgment   but  spared  them by  leaving the remnant  ]  calling out of Both  sets   those whom will come in the name of the Lord   ,     If its now or if its to come       , or even if its both now and than   , I cannot say    because I believe there is an invisible        realm where many things are going on in the Spirit and in righteousness       after mortal death ,   that the mortal man    that is   here on earth     has no clue about   what so ever ..  and only By the Spirit  would one be able to make   this claim   ,  Our hope is in God and always  will be .

New American Standard Bible
Solicitude for Israel

      1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
      6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."

10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

      14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

      19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?

The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

25As He says also in Hosea,
            "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
            AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"

      26"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
            THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

      27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."

29And just as Isaiah foretold,
            "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
            WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."

      30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

33just as it is written,
            "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
            AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

[rosered]

Fiery trials come upon Christians in many ways. The rain also falls on the just and the unjust.

Can the death of a loved one be a fiery trial? An illness? Financial difficulty?

Many different things can come upon us as fiery trials to purify our faith, including persecution.

As we walk through this life God is teaching us to trust Him. To wait upon Him. To walk in His ways.

I would agree with that. But the context of the fire according to PETER'S usage was the persecution of the church by the wickedness of man sent by God. So, if we are to apply his intended meaning of "fire" in that instance to Revelation 14, I am fine with that. But I think in the day of the Lord, destruction shall come upon the wicked.

2 PEter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

My whole point is that the Spirit coming at Pentacost is not what Peter had in mind regarding the fire that tries the church. Fire doesn't all represent the same thing. He meant the hard experiences brought externally upon the church as a way to judge them now and refine their faith.

The tongues of fire which rests upon the heads of the saints are likewise for judgment: "Know ye not that the saints shall judge the world?" For the Sprit and the Bride SAY "come drink the water of life freely." The Gospel is what causes knees to bend and confessions of Christ to come, caused by the Spirit and the bride, for God has used the foolishness of preaching. TWO things make people enter New Jerusalem: THIRST and WATER. "being utterly perished in your own corruption and having the Bride invite them to come drink" is a pretty good combination to get creation into the liberty of the Sons of God.

  I love  what you said     both John and Seth ,

I get this  :thumbsup:  thanks

John you are right , the suffering and loss      , we suffer   not having ''control ''  over our lives and   loose    many , many things we thought we had      forever

  and its all so temporary  here and now     , when we   develop    growth in Spiritual  faith and keep hope alive in Christ and depend on Him ,we learn   what true righteousness is    in Christ   ,  not to  put stock on anything  we have or control         All is Gods for the    choosing      to build up and tear down   and make  all   things  new again

and I get that Seth  well said !         Being under the persecution   by faith and entering the Body of Christ / church      , perfect example was Saul as  killing the new babes in Christ   , Till Jesus come to Him in the Spirit and showed Him the error of his ways      , and this is where I believe we also   have the return of Christ    to correct our error  of our ways    , its a visit  and hardship  Saul  experienced     to being changed  ,    to become Paul a new name and new stone   ,   that stone would  represent the new building  '' Temple of the Living God   though Jesus Christ Body  in Heaven , His  name written in the Lambs book of life .    from Saul to Paul   from a worker of iniquity to   a worker   in  Christ righteousness

   from the left hand to the  right  hand   from a goat to a sheep   , the goats and bulls  represent the  old covenant in Hebrews chapters  7  -10  of slaughter  and blood that could never  make perfect [its the in  part  that   kills ] that is fading and waxing old        and the sheep the new covenant    under ONE SHEPHERD    JESUS CHRIST by grace  to make ALIVE    .

I thank God for all this  wonderful discussion , its cleared up a lot of things  ,  we desire the crystal clear waters   who would NOT ?  ,  muddy water is for the desperate    , and though it helps it never  satisfies  or  sanctifies   , It Must Come from   the Lord  Himself  by Holy Spirit


 

[Seth]

I thank God for all this  wonderful discussion , its cleared up a lot of things  ,  we desire the crystal clear waters   who would NOT ?  ,  muddy water is for the desperate    , and though it helps it never  satisfies  or  sanctifies   , It Must Come from   the Lord  Himself  by Holy Spirit

Yeah, I agree. I was saying this in an earlier post but I didn't say it how I really wanted to say it. Given that the Lake of Fire image is not completely explained by John from the Lord, it leaves us with the task of determining what it could mean. I can only describe my own way of doing this, and not to say it's necessarily the RIGHT way or the only way, but my way of thinking is as follows:

I start with the fact that one image can represent several different concepts at different times (God is a fire, ministers are a fire, wickedness is a fire), so while fire might represent something holy in one scripture, it might represent something unholy in another. That's up to God. My approach is to determine the intended meaning of "fire" in that particular instance of scripture.

I do that by COMPARING the image to other images in the same scripture to see what those images could all represent. For example:

God's kingdom is ministers of flaming fire in one scripture, and a vineyard in another, and a pearl, and a net which captures fish, and leaven, and also a city called New Jerusalem in another scripture.

God himself is a flaming fire in one scripture, and a lion in another, and a sword, and a lamb, and a Tree of Life and rivers of running water in another scripture.

Wickedness is compared to a fire in Isaiah 9 which contains references to rising smoke, thorns and briers, devouring, God's wrath etc etc, and we have the wine of God's wrath that causes men to make themselves naked, so God can expose their nakedness, and John 3:6 teaching about Gehenna fire related to the tongue etc etc.

So when I compare everything in John's vision against the images contained within the passage, I come to the conclusion that the fire in Revelation 14 and 20 is most likely referencing Isaiah 9, in THAT particular instance. Not to say that the image of fire does not apply to God and to his ministers in other scripture, but I don't think that God is employing those metaphors in that way at that time.

Again, it's like how God says to walk in darkness in Isaiah 50. To know what he means, I need to COMPARE the "darkness" to the fiery torches of man in the same passage, which give off the light of man. Then I know that must walk in darkness COMPARED TO the light of man, and thus we are walking in the light.

[rosered]

I thank God for all this  wonderful discussion , its cleared up a lot of things  ,  we desire the crystal clear waters   who would NOT ?  ,  muddy water is for the desperate    , and though it helps it never  satisfies  or  sanctifies   , It Must Come from   the Lord  Himself  by Holy Spirit

Yeah, I agree. I was saying this in an earlier post but I didn't say it how I really wanted to say it. Given that the Lake of Fire image is not completely explained by John from the Lord, it leaves us with the task of determining what it could mean. I can only describe my own way of doing this, and not to say it's necessarily the RIGHT way or the only way, but my way of thinking is as follows:

I start with the fact that one image can represent several different concepts at different times (God is a fire, ministers are a fire, wickedness is a fire), so while fire might represent something holy in one scripture, it might represent something unholy in another. That's up to God. My approach is to determine the intended meaning of "fire" in that particular instance of scripture.

I do that by COMPARING the image to other images in the same scripture to see what those images could all represent. For example:

God's kingdom is ministers of flaming fire in one scripture, and a vineyard in another, and a pearl, and a net which captures fish, and leaven, and also a city called New Jerusalem in another scripture.

God himself is a flaming fire in one scripture, and a lion in another, and a sword, and a lamb, and a Tree of Life and rivers of running water in another scripture.

Wickedness is compared to a fire in Isaiah 9 which contains references to rising smoke, thorns and briers, devouring, God's wrath etc etc, and we have the wine of God's wrath that causes men to make themselves naked, so God can expose their nakedness, and John 3:6 teaching about Gehenna fire related to the tongue etc etc.

So when I compare everything in John's vision against the images contained within the passage, I come to the conclusion that the fire in Revelation 14 and 20 is most likely referencing Isaiah 9, in THAT particular instance. Not to say that the image of fire does not apply to God and to his ministers in other scripture, but I don't think that God is employing those metaphors in that way at that time.

Again, it's like how God says to walk in darkness in Isaiah 50. To know what he means, I need to COMPARE the "darkness" to the fiery torches of man in the same passage, which give off the light of man. Then I know that must walk in darkness COMPARED TO the light of man, and thus we are walking in the light.

  What about Isaiah 33   Seth ?   

I am glad you see that and are willing to say it , that many fires     ,  I agree   but  I also believe in ONE source      Gods consuming fire , all come from Him and all shall be  purified by Him

I  still believe the     in the HOLY SPIRIT &FIRE      as   Gods judgment  and chastening of the Lord   now  in the body  and  even after   a mortals death   and the purpose  of the Lake of Fire as cleansing and purifying      of     DEATH    completely      every man shall be delivered  from     hell/graves  &  death   by the work of Jesus Christ   His blood  and the cross     but not before the   judgments of God in the earth

I believe the fire of men as  prideful doing evil  by a Spirit that is not of   Jesus Christ  opposing Gods  will    and do reap as they sow , as not the  fire of correction , but the fire of   torment   Rev 9     the King   Abaddon   of Hebrew  and    APOLLYON   Greek ,   they cause  hurt      the  2nd death , till they are cast in the lake of Fire to be purged     

the riders on the horses of hell   [of the old testament grave and  death  in the new testament    ]   to be cast  into it  , but first they must complete the prophecy   in revelation   9 as destroyers   

e Hebrew term Abaddon (Hebrew: אֲבַדּוֹן‎, 'Ǎḇaddōn), and its Greek equivalent Apollyon (Greek: Ἀπολλύων, Apollyon), appear in the Bible as a place of destruction and an angel, respectively. In the Hebrew Bible, abaddon is used with reference to a bottomless pit, often appearing alongside the place שאול (sheol), meaning the land of the dead. In the New Testament Book of Revelation, an angel called Abaddon is written as the king of an army of locusts; his name is first transcribed in Greek (Revelation 9:11 – "whose name in Hebrew Abaddon" (Ἀβαδδὼν)), and then translated ("which in Greek means the Destroyer" (Ἀπολλύων, Apollyon)).   
    We can see How God  uses  evil  , the stings in their tails /lies   Rev  9  to   make good ,  Many  come  to  repentance and to Christ

Its just how I believe  and not expecting anyone else to   believe as I do   , If I am wrong,  I am sure Gods fire of chastening will correct me   , and as painful to confess , I believed a lie    , its on me only  :sigh:  but had to  speak up 

[micah7:9]

Unless I'm in error there are but two places in all Scripture that speak of "EVERY MAN'S WORK" being tried and judged: Twice in I Cor. 3 and twice in Rev. 20. And there are but two places in all Scripture where every man's work is tried and judged "IN FIRE" I Cor. 3 and Rev. 20.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture at all is becoming its OWN EXPLANATION" (II Pet. 1:20)

So I Cor. 3 cannot completely answer all that is contained within its verses without the aid of the ONLY other such Scripture in the Bible, Rev. 20. And Rev. 20 cannot completely answer all that is contained within its verses without the aid of the ONLY other such Scripture in the Bible, I Cor. 3.

1Co 2:13 ....... comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

That's why in my opinion nothing can be offered regarding eternity. Isa. 57:15.

[Seth]

Rose, Here is what I see Isaiah 33 as saying

Isaiah 33 (KJV)
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

What I notice is that they shall bring forth chaff, they shall bring forth stubble, and their breath, like fire, will devour them. One translation has it that God's breath will devour them. But most have it that the same people who conceive the chaff (dry grass) and the stubble are the ones devouring themselves in their own fire with their own breath. But even if the reference is to God, if that is the case, according to the logic of the passage, then God would also be the one who births the chaff, and births the stubble. That would remind me of the wine of the wrath of God which causes men to make themselves naked and have their nakedness exposed.

So, I would see a reference to Isaiah 9 and how that "God's hand his raised in his anger" and that man devours eachother in the fire of their own wickedness.
I think the dry grass being birthed from within them and being burned by their breath reminds me of James 3:6, the tongue is a fire which can lead to a forest fire which devours the whole body.
So the burnings are fearful to those who are sinners in Zion. The description of New Jerusalem in Revelation is that nothing unclean may enter. So, if that is the case, doesn't it show why the sinners in Zion are afraid? Didn't Christ's parable say that those who are found wearing the wrong robes are to be BOUND hand and foot and thrown OUT of the wedding party? That's the fire that I believe they are afraid of. But for those in Zion who are not afraid:

15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Those who "shut their eyes" (remember, Jesus told us to cut out our eyes and throw them into Gehenna so that our whole bodies don't go there) they continue to dwell on high. Their waters shall be sure. Where is the water in Revelation 20? Inside the city where NOTHING which defiles can remain.

Zion is on high. Gehenna is below.

[rosered]

Unless I'm in error there are but two places in all Scripture that speak of "EVERY MAN'S WORK" being tried and judged: Twice in I Cor. 3 and twice in Rev. 20. And there are but two places in all Scripture where every man's work is tried and judged "IN FIRE" I Cor. 3 and Rev. 20.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture at all is becoming its OWN EXPLANATION" (II Pet. 1:20)

So I Cor. 3 cannot completely answer all that is contained within its verses without the aid of the ONLY other such Scripture in the Bible, Rev. 20. And Rev. 20 cannot completely answer all that is contained within its verses without the aid of the ONLY other such Scripture in the Bible, I Cor. 3.

1Co 2:13 ....... comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

That's why in my opinion nothing can be offered regarding eternity. Isa. 57:15.

  :thumbsup:  14And it will be said, "Build up, build up, prepare the way, Remove every obstacle out of the way of My people."


15For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell on a high and holy place,


And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.



16"For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would grow faint before Me, And the breath of those whom I have made

     Every knee will bow and EVERY tongue  confess   !!
...10But you, why do you judge your brother?

Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?

For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."


12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.   

:HeartThrob:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness"; 20 and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless." 21 So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

Judgment at the Throne of God
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.


12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.


13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

[rosered]

Rose, Here is what I see Isaiah 33 as saying

Isaiah 33 (KJV)
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

What I notice is that they shall bring forth chaff, they shall bring forth stubble, and their breath, like fire, will devour them. One translation has it that God's breath will devour them. But most have it that the same people who conceive the chaff (dry grass) and the stubble are the ones devouring themselves in their own fire with their own breath. But even if the reference is to God, if that is the case, according to the logic of the passage, then God would also be the one who births the chaff, and births the stubble. That would remind me of the wine of the wrath of God which causes men to make themselves naked and have their nakedness exposed.

So, I would see a reference to Isaiah 9 and how that "God's hand his raised in his anger" and that man devours eachother in the fire of their own wickedness.
I think the dry grass being birthed from within them and being burned by their breath reminds me of James 3:6, the tongue is a fire which can lead to a forest fire which devours the whole body.
So the burnings are fearful to those who are sinners in Zion. The description of New Jerusalem in Revelation is that nothing unclean may enter. So, if that is the case, doesn't it show why the sinners in Zion are afraid? Didn't Christ's parable say that those who are found wearing the wrong robes are to be BOUND hand and foot and thrown OUT of the wedding party? That's the fire that I believe they are afraid of. But for those in Zion who are not afraid:

15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Those who "shut their eyes" (remember, Jesus told us to cut out our eyes and throw them into Gehenna so that our whole bodies don't go there) they continue to dwell on high. Their waters shall be sure. Where is the water in Revelation 20? Inside the city where NOTHING which defiles can remain.

Zion is on high. Gehenna is below.

  Now Seth you know I     see the end  stating none are cast out but forgiven     , the LORD SHALL  cleanse   in ONE DAY  the filth of the daughter of Zion / Sion   
  Isaiah  33   and how you have brought up those scriptures   pertaining to the   NEW ZION /SION

  I find that just beautiful    ,  but you have left out the part  I have so tried to    express  in    Isaiah 33 The Judgment of God

I read  those   first verses referring to Rev  9     the destroyer and his  followers
   those  under the law , below is abyss  also     earthly sensual and devilish    , the sense of this  ,        the self righteous and prideful and   hoping to perfect themselves and making proselytes / new recruits  two fold the children of hell   !!      that making  perfect by the LAW  of condemnation  and ministration of death   can never  make perfect its the LIE OF the  devil    /satan     to accuse   any one before God     , Its God whom perfects   by   the Lambs blood   , and many use his NAME in vain , by  doing them works of iniquity ..     

I do believe you  see the fire  here   as    not   a good thing and  temporary  , but   I see the Fire as apart of Gods nature  and we will all be on fire for God   , the Light and Fire      are  purity to me    and keep everything Holy      ...    and I see this as our difference     Seth

 
I just dont see the  Spiritual    as anything   but Light  &  Love and   Fire to keep Holy  pure and clean

   the  seven eyes on ONE STONE     See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

Revelation 1:4 - John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 4:5 - And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.  Jesus Christ         descriptive of     11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God     REV 1 !;18      I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Jesus   has those   keys of hell and death and  He   will purge   all things with the lake of fire , He is worthy !! praise His name  ,     I know its how we see things  and they can be seen differently     and I do not say  this is    the way it is  ,  i can never say that ,    but  its just how I can see anything  today


 

33 Woe to you, O destroyer,
While you were not destroyed;
And he who is treacherous, while others did not deal treacherously with him.
As soon as you finish destroying, you will be destroyed;
As soon as you cease to deal treacherously, others will deal treacherously with you.
2 O Lord, be gracious to us; we have waited for You.
Be [a]their strength every morning,
Our salvation also in the time of distress.
3 At the sound of the tumult peoples flee;
At the lifting up of Yourself nations disperse.
4 Your spoil is gathered as the caterpillar gathers;
As locusts rushing about men rush about on it.
5 The Lord is exalted, for He dwells on high;
He has filled Zion with justice and righteousness.
6 And He will be the [c]stability of your times,
A wealth of salvation, wisdom and knowledge;
The fear of the Lord is his treasure.
7 Behold, their brave men cry in [d]the streets,
The [e]ambassadors of peace weep bitterly.
8 The highways are desolate, [f]the traveler has ceased,
He has broken the covenant, he has despised the cities,
He has no regard for man.
9 The land mourns and pines away,
Lebanon is shamed and withers;
Sharon is like a desert plain,
And Bashan and Carmel [g]lose their foliage.
10 "Now I will arise," says the Lord,
"Now I will be exalted, now I will be lifted up.
11 "You have conceived [h]chaff, you will give birth to stubble;
My breath will consume you like a fire.
12 "The peoples will be burned to lime,
Like cut thorns which are burned in the fire.
13 "You who are far away, hear what I have done;
And you who are near, [j]acknowledge My might."
14 Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
"Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?"
15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects [l]unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty;
They will behold a far-distant land.
18 Your heart will meditate on terror:
"Where is he who counts?
Where is he who weighs?
Where is he who counts the towers?"
19 You will no longer see a fierce people,
A people of [n]unintelligible speech

• which no one comprehends,
  Of a stammering tongue [p]which no one understands.
  20 Look upon Zion, the city of our appointed feasts;
  Your eyes will see Jerusalem, an undisturbed habitation,
  A tent which will not be folded;
  Its stakes will never be pulled up,
  Nor any of its cords be torn apart.
  21 But there the majestic One, the Lord, will be for us
  A place of rivers and wide canals
  On which no boat with oars will go,
  And on which no mighty ship will pass—
  22 For the Lord is our judge,
  The Lord is our lawgiver,
  The Lord is our king;
  He will save us—
  23 Your tackle hangs slack;
  It cannot hold the base of its mast firmly,
  Nor spread out the sail.
  Then the prey of an abundant spoil will be divided;
  The lame will take the plunder.
  
  24 And no resident will say, "I am sick";
  
  The people who dwell there will be forgiven their iniquity.
  
  
  all    will be forgiven    there , not cast out         as the above  verse  states     
  
  
  I love these discussions and hope they   help us all    , Gods Spirit is on the move  ,  no doubts    He is helping us all      :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I do believe you  see the fire  here   as    not   a good thing and  temporary  , but   I see the Fire as apart of Gods nature  and we will all be on fire for God   , the Light and Fire      are  purity to me    and keep everything Holy      ...    and I see this as our difference     Seth

Well "bad" and "good" carry some baggage. Do you think God can use "bad" things for a good purpose? Didn't he use the Babylonian captivity to bring repentance to Jerusalem?

I think the purpose of the Isaiah 33 fire causing fear with the "sinners in Zion" is made clear, that they have produced stubble, and the fire of their mouths will consume them.

I think Isaiah 33 also answers the OP about whether "believers" find themselves in the LOF. I think there is a clear distinction between "sinners in Zion" contrasted against those who "dwell on high" whose "waters are sure." If the sinners are in Zion, and they are afraid of the fire of their breath which devours the stubble that they produce themselves, those who are not sinners in Zion don't need to worry. If Revelation says that "nothing unclean may enter" then that explains why Jesus said that "not all who say Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but those who do the will of my father in heaven."

I think it also gives some light as two why the kingdom of God is compared to a net which captures both good and bad fish, and why there are right and wrong garments in the wedding party, and why the wheat grow with the tares. The sinners in Zion, if they birth dry grass ought to be afraid because fire burns dry grass. It all brings me back to the younger son receiving and inheritance but then leaving his father's place, and going out to be humbled by his own actions.

THERE is where I see the purification aspect of the LOF. THERE is where I see the purification aspect of Babylonian captivity.

Early in Isaiah 33 he says the destroyer will judge, then be destroyed himself. So, I do see God using captivity to bring humility, then getting rid of the captivity. I am not saying that LOF has no refining aspects about it. I believe it results in THIRST and then obedience to drink the WATER.

But when Jesus says that they will be "BOUND HAND AND FOOT" he is talking about CAPTIVITY.

[rosered]

I do believe you  see the fire  here   as    not   a good thing and  temporary  , but   I see the Fire as apart of Gods nature  and we will all be on fire for God   , the Light and Fire      are  purity to me    and keep everything Holy      ...    and I see this as our difference     Seth

Well "bad" and "good" carry some baggage. Do you think God can use "bad" things for a good purpose? Didn't he use the Babylonian captivity to bring repentance to Jerusalem?

I think the purpose of the Isaiah 33 fire causing fear with the "sinners in Zion" is made clear, that they have produced stubble, and the fire of their mouths will consume them.

I think Isaiah 33 also answers the OP about whether "believers" find themselves in the LOF. I think there is a clear distinction between "sinners in Zion" contrasted against those who "dwell on high" whose "waters are sure." If the sinners are in Zion, and they are afraid of the fire of their breath which devours the stubble that they produce themselves, those who are not sinners in Zion don't need to worry. If Revelation says that "nothing unclean may enter" then that explains why Jesus said that "not all who say Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but those who do the will of my father in heaven."

I think it also gives some light as two why the kingdom of God is compared to a net which captures both good and bad fish, and why there are right and wrong garments in the wedding party, and why the wheat grow with the tares. The sinners in Zion, if they birth dry grass ought to be afraid because fire burns dry grass. It all brings me back to the younger son receiving and inheritance but then leaving his father's place, and going out to be humbled by his own actions.

THERE is where I see the purification aspect of the LOF. THERE is where I see the purification aspect of Babylonian captivity.

Early in Isaiah 33 he says the destroyer will judge, then be destroyed himself. So, I do see God using captivity to bring humility, then getting rid of the captivity. I am not saying that LOF has no refining aspects about it. I believe it results in THIRST and then obedience to drink the WATER.

But when Jesus says that they will be "BOUND HAND AND FOOT" he is talking about CAPTIVITY.

  Thank you ,  glad you brought this out Seth !!   
I agree      with the good and bad  fish in the nets ,
  but I really think      we see differently in the sense of this ,

  I see the good and bad  fish  in  each and everyone of us   , not a good fish and a bad fish as separate   peoples /fish
  I see the separation as something that happens to each and everyone of us   
   the reason I feel this way is because  all   in Adam die   , being the   day we eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil     we are as dead    already though we live     in moral bodies   because of the Day we eat we surly die 

I know this is off topic , but       Jesus says make the tree  good and its fruit good    or corrupt    ,  a tree is known by its fruit          ,    so making good is
  having the mind of Christ    something   , I believe only  Jesus can do  , but we have to desire Him  and obey Him and  that only comes when the Lord God writes    the laws in our hearts    , we cannot do this   on our own
  look at the   examples  of failures   the  disciples and even as apostles struggled with       
  This grace of God is for those trying         and have acknowledged Him       as their KING    , how do we deny him ?
  By not doing as He asks us too   , Love God and one another as ourselves   

  how easy is it for the wrath of man to  emerge   in any one of us  ?    , it does not work the righteousness of God

Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God 

Here is the    thing   Seth  , does Paul mean here and now or some other age ?    I really believe this is where   some think now and some believe later  and it does bring divisions in Christ  :sigh:   


20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


  Some believe Jesus is  not  here yet  nor formed  and others believe He is  here  Now  and  making  all things new    with  the heavenly    realm  open

    I do believe there is an invisible    realm  that is  now and  no man can know it       , but only by the Holy Spirit    dwelling within a man   will he know God
though Jesus Christ ...

[Seth]

I see the good and bad  fish  in  each and everyone of us   , not a good fish and a bad fish as separate   peoples /fish
  I see the separation as something that happens to each and everyone of us   
   the reason I feel this way is because  all   in Adam die   , being the   day we eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil     we are as dead    already though we live     in moral bodies   because of the Day we eat we surly die 

I believe we do live in mortal bodies but we are not BOUND to do the things that the mortal body wants us to do (by influence also of the Devil). Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death, that we may serve in newness of the Spirit. I believe that at the end, the Lord will "sever the just from among the wicked" who don't simply have a carnal nature, but MIND the things of the flesh.

There is a HUGE difference between having a carnal body and a carnal nature and MINDING those things by walking according to the flesh. I think what is being said in scripture is that those who profess belief in Christ but persisting MINDING the things of the flesh and walking in the flesh will be cut off from the those who do not.

Those who rape, murder, steal, love a lie etc, will be severed from the just and shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But I believe that the purpose of the kingdom of God will be to receive them all back when they repent (bow and confess) and forsake their sin.

we cannot do this   on our own

I agree and this gets to the sovereignty of God in preserving his elect. God will give the strength needed to his elect not to be deceived of the Devil for God's elect cannot be sifted.

 
 

20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
 
  Some believe Jesus is  not  here yet  nor formed  and others believe He is  here  Now  and  making  all things new    with  the heavenly    realm  open

I believe there is a continuing process culminating with death being destroyed and all men being saved. But death has not yet been destroyed, and eventually the second death itself will be destroyed when it's purpose as the "cup of wine of God's wrath" (which I believe means being turned over to Babylon) is completed.

I don't think that all the warnings to the church about not being cut off can be internalized. I believe there will be a separation of people within Zion.

[Seth]

I just want to reiterate that I don't believe having a carnal nature is the same as being carnally MINDED (as defined in Romans 8). Those who walk according to the flesh produce death. Those who walk according to the Spirit produce both life and peace. There is no peace for those who walk according to the flesh, nor life. This is true even though every person has a carnal nature.

I believe the purpose of the Spirit is to break ties with the carnal nature so that we are not in slavery to it. This cannot be done by the Law but only the Spirit.

[Seth]

Romans 8
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the DEEDS of the body, ye shall live.

Notice...you shall be dead spiritually if you pursue the things of the flesh, not just because you are tempted. If you crucify the lusts and desires of the flesh, you will be ALIVE. Life is found in how we respond to temptation not in just being tempted.

You don't have to consider yourself dead unless you fail to mortify the deeds of the body. That is why I disagree that we are all still dead in Adam. That's only the case if we follow the flesh, and do the things it tempts us to do. The wages of sin is death. Wages come AFTER the work.

[gregoryfl]

I do believe you  see the fire  here   as    not   a good thing and  temporary  , but   I see the Fire as apart of Gods nature  and we will all be on fire for God   , the Light and Fire      are  purity to me    and keep everything Holy      ...    and I see this as our difference     Seth

10 "Now I will arise," says the Lord,
"Now I will be exalted, now I will be lifted up.
11 "You have conceived [h]chaff, you will give birth to stubble;
My breath will consume you like a fire.
12 "The peoples will be burned to lime,
Like cut thorns which are burned in the fire.
13 "You who are far away, hear what I have done;
And you who are near, [j]acknowledge My might."
14 Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
"Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?"
15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects [l]unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty;
They will behold a far-distant land.

Rose,

I believe that you are trying to communicate that, although the sinners and godless tremble and are terrified at the fire, there are those who actually dwell with that devouring fire (God), that continual burning, which would mean that the very same fire is experienced by both the godly and the ungodly. This is something the ancient sages, as well as the ancient eastern churches have taught for thousands of years.

This passage...
"Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?"
15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects [l]unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights...

is thematically linked to Psalm 15 and 24, where David wrote:

Yahweh, who shall dwell in your sanctuary? Who shall live on your holy hill?
He who walks blamelessly, does what is right, and speaks truth in his heart;
He who doesn't slander with his tongue, nor does evil to his friend, nor casts slurs against his fellow man;
(Psa 15:1-3)


Who may ascend to YHWH's hill? Who may stand in his holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart;
who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood,
and has not sworn deceitfully.
He shall receive a blessing from Yahweh, righteousness from the God of his salvation.
(Psa 24:3-5)

YHWH's hill is the experiencing of his presence as a consuming fire that continually burns, but it's experience is similar to that of the three Hebrews in the furnace, as that which does not hurt them or overcome them, for they have overcome and, as fire themselves, cannot be hurt by what is their own substance...fire added to fire just makes a bigger fire. This same fire which flows from the throne of God is also depicted as water because those who are being burned by it, overcome in their own love of darkness and sin, always have opened before them the opportunity to drink of that water for life, and they too will eventually experience the fire, when all is burned away that is consumable in them, as the light and comfort it also portrays, which we now as believers have opportunity to participate in in this life.

Ronen

[Seth]

Even if the fire devouring the sinners of Zion was God himself (which I don't think it is saying in Isaiah 33), but even so, I don't believe that represents the Lake of Fire.

The lake of fire is OUTSIDE the gates of Jerusalem in Revelation 20. So, just as fire represents God, and fire represents wickedness, when I compare the images in Revelation 20 and 14, I see that God has chosen not to represent his elect as fire in that scripture, but to contrast it against the fire of Gehenna OUTSIDE the city. I think Christ's copious use of a fire which is OUTSIDE the wedding party to which man is to be "bound hand and foot" and thrown into is a reference to Isaiah 9.

Wickedness is OUTSIDE the city (for nothing unclear may enter). Water is INSIDE the city where God dwells. So, I agree, the sinners of Zion will not dwell with God. They will be bound hand and foot and thrown into the "outer darkness."

[gregoryfl]

Is anything outside of God? Remember, all of these descriptions of realities are done in ways we can understand, but cannot be pressed so literally so as to destroy the reality. For if God truly is a being sitting on a literal throne in a place called heaven, then everything, including the throne he is sitting on, is outside of him.

[Seth]

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.