Can a believer go to the Lake of Fire?

[Seth]

Intensity may vary, but the fire inside that lake is the very same fire of Pentecost and the fire of 'fiery trial of our faith'.

Let's take a look at the fire which tries the faith:

1 Peter1
6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

1 Peter 4
12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
    what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"[a]
19 So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

------
The fire testing the faith is the suffering brought upon the church through persecution. The fire is the persecution of the church, which is brought forth by the wickedness of man. That's judgment according to the wrath of man upon the church, whereas the Lake of Fire is called the wrath of GOD upon the wicked.
I would agree that the fire is the same as that which tried the faith, but that in the day of the Lord, the fire of the wickedness of man is upon himself.

Both manifestations of that fire are revealed from heaven according to God's purpose.

[eaglesway]

Fiery trials come upon Christians in many ways. The rain also falls on the just and the unjust.

Can the death of a loved one be a fiery trial? An illness? Financial difficulty?

Many different things can come upon us as fiery trials to purify our faith, including persecution.

As we walk through this life God is teaching us to trust Him. To wait upon Him. To walk in His ways.

[Seth]

Fiery trials come upon Christians in many ways. The rain also falls on the just and the unjust.

Can the death of a loved one be a fiery trial? An illness? Financial difficulty?

Many different things can come upon us as fiery trials to purify our faith, including persecution.

As we walk through this life God is teaching us to trust Him. To wait upon Him. To walk in His ways.

I would agree with that. But the context of the fire according to PETER'S usage was the persecution of the church by the wickedness of man sent by God. So, if we are to apply his intended meaning of "fire" in that instance to Revelation 14, I am fine with that. But I think in the day of the Lord, destruction shall come upon the wicked.

2 PEter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

My whole point is that the Spirit coming at Pentacost is not what Peter had in mind regarding the fire that tries the church. Fire doesn't all represent the same thing. He meant the hard experiences brought externally upon the church as a way to judge them now and refine their faith.

The tongues of fire which rests upon the heads of the saints are likewise for judgment: "Know ye not that the saints shall judge the world?" For the Sprit and the Bride SAY "come drink the water of life freely." The Gospel is what causes knees to bend and confessions of Christ to come, caused by the Spirit and the bride, for God has used the foolishness of preaching. TWO things make people enter New Jerusalem: THIRST and WATER. "being utterly perished in your own corruption and having the Bride invite them to come drink" is a pretty good combination to get creation into the liberty of the Sons of God.

[eaglesway]

I think it is a stretch to read "lake of fire" wherever we read "fire" in the scriptures.

IMO no believer goes through the lake of fire, and the fiery trial of our faith comes from walking in fellowship with the One who is a consuming fire.

Intensity may vary, but the fire inside that lake is the very same fire of Pentecost and the fire of 'fiery trial of our faith'.

Our sins have already been forgiven. The purifying of our faith concerns service and worship and growth. The lake of fire involves corrective punishment and the exposure of hidden things and the people Jesus threatened with it were religious hypocrites and wicked adversaries and predators upon the weak.

Being forgiven has absolute nothing to do with purification....

I just don't think the Holy Spirit plays those kinds of word games in the writing of the scriptures.

What looks as word games may just be a manifestation of wrong/incomplete understanding.


The fire is (the essence) of the Father Himself.

The fire comes from the Father, through Jesus- agreed.

However it may take many forms and various applications according to His purpose.

IMO, The flames of Pentecost are not the same as the flames of the lake of fire, altho they surely have the same source.

The flames of Pentecost anointed believers. The lake of fire is an experience for adversaries- and of course, it is not fire, as in actual flames.

The lake of fire is a metaphoric expression for whatever it will be- and is beyond our present comprehension. The image is given as a divine communicator of a concept that is too high for absolute definition.

One statement made about it, out of the FEW given, is that it is for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life.

Ignore that statement and there is no way a person can understand what the lake of fire is- even conceptually.

[eaglesway]

Fiery trials come upon Christians in many ways. The rain also falls on the just and the unjust.

Can the death of a loved one be a fiery trial? An illness? Financial difficulty?

Many different things can come upon us as fiery trials to purify our faith, including persecution.

As we walk through this life God is teaching us to trust Him. To wait upon Him. To walk in His ways.

I would agree with that. But the context of the fire according to PETER'S usage was the persecution of the church by the wickedness of man sent by God. So, if we are to apply his intended meaning of "fire" in that instance to Revelation 14, I am fine with that. But I think in the day of the Lord, destruction shall come upon the wicked.

2 PEter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Yes, this is the unquenchable fire reserved for adversaries. Not actual flames in a pond. An experience that goes beyond anything we can presently define or describe, other than in principle, within the limits the scriptures have given us.

[Seth]

Personally I believe there is a preponderance of Scripture enough to understand what the lake of fire is. It's death. Within the Bride is life. There is an abundance of scripture which define the difference between life and death on a spiritual level. But I do agree that the pentacost fire is not the same as the fire expressed by Peter. As I was adding above: The tongues of fire which rests upon the heads of the saints are likewise for judgment: "Know ye not that the saints shall judge the world?" For the Sprit and the Bride SAY "come drink the water of life freely." The Gospel is what causes knees to bend and confessions of Christ to come, caused by the Spirit and the bride, for God has used the foolishness of preaching. TWO things make people enter New Jerusalem: THIRST and WATER. "being utterly perished in your own corruption and having the Bride invite them to come drink" is a pretty good combination to get creation into the liberty of the Sons of God.

[eaglesway]

I do not agree that there is a preponderance of scripture concerning the lake of fire. We are told what it is for, and we are given conceptual information about its nature and what it will accomplish, but as far as exactly what the experience will be- we are given a few clues and no more.

We know that it will be accomplished in the presence of God(Rev 14:10)

We know that it will accomplish the subjection of those in it to the Lordship of Jesus

We know that it will accomplish the destruction of death and the grave.


I personally believe it will be an aionian council/assembly

Psalm 82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...

Heb 12    Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us......ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.....for our God is a consuming fire.

"Know ye not that you shall judge angels" .....

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

I believe the lake of fire will be accomplished by the "great assembly" before whom the wicked will stand until every hidden thing comes to light, until every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord.

As John saw Jesus' to be flames of fire, so will all the eyes of all within whom God has already become "all" be, and as Jesus said , the ones who overcome will inherit all things and sit with Him on His Fathers throne.

When Jesus spoke of the axe being laid to the root of the trees and the "unquenchable fire" that would consume the chaff, I believe He was speaking of His words, the testimony of Jesus Christ which is the spirit of prophecy, and their effect upon the unrighteous institutions of men.

I think we are the lake of fire, in the heavenly assembly, in the presence of God- but to me, that is something I see through a glass darkly- not something I would teach as doctrine.

[Seth]

I do not agree that there is a preponderance of scripture concerning the lake of fire. We are told what it is for, and we are given conceptual information about its nature and what it will accomplish, but as far as exactly what the experience will be- we are given a few clues and no more.

I think there are way more than a few clues. It starts by a definition of what the LOF is: DEATH. Then it contrasts it against what is found within the Bride: LIFE. The invitation is extended to those who are outside the gates of the bride to come in and drink of life. I think the scripture is FILLED with definitions of what the difference is between life and death on a spiritual level.

I believe the lake of fire will be accomplished by the "great assembly" before whom the wicked will stand until every hidden thing comes to light, until every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord.

The great assembly is in the Bride. What Revelation describes is that the assembly is are inviting everyone in death (the LOF) to come drink of life.

As John saw Jesus' to be flames of fire, so will all the eyes of all within whom God has already become "all" be, and as Jesus said , the ones who overcome will inherit all things and sit with Him on His Fathers throne.

I believe the throne room is among the bride, for they are given to sit on the throne of Christ. Therefore, I believe their tongues judge the world through the Gospel, so that they may leave aside the "wine of the wrath of God" (the LOF) and enter into New Jerusalem to drink of the rivers of life.

I think we are the lake of fire, in the heavenly assembly,

I believe the Heavenly Assembly is the BRIDE, God living with his people (Revelation 21:3). New Jerusalem is not the same as the Lake of Fire. They are separated by an open gate. Outside the bride is death, which is the LOF.

BTW, there is a difference between teaching as doctrine and sharing a belief. That is what I am doing. Sharing my belief on what the LOF is, why it is described as "death." But in no way am I hanging it as an essential doctrine. It's just what I believe, and I think there is reason to believe it.

[Seth]

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

[gregoryfl]

From what I understand, ancient Midrashic study helps us put the pieces together. I believe a foundational principle is that there is nothing in the writings of the 1st century that does not have a foundational witness in the earlier writings of the Tanach. For this reason, when I put together all the various thematic connections from Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, the Psalms, Deuteronomy, Genesis, and Zechariah, and then find their equivalents in the writings of Revelation and Hebrews, I come to the conclusion that the river of fire, the river of living water, the sea of glass, the lake of fire, and the fiery furnace heated 7 times, all refer to one and the same, having differing effects depending on who experiences it, all coming from he who is both the Consuming Fire, and the Fountain of Living Waters.

[Seth]

Our God is a consuming fire

Hebrews 12
25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."e 27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our "God is a consuming fire."

Hebrews 13
1Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. 2Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. 3Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.

4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Do you see how that phrase is couched between warnings of judgment? From what I see, the phrase "our God is a consuming fire" is referring to judgment. Yes, it is from the same source, but the warning is clear to me. To be cast into the lake of fire (which is DEATH) is not to be imbued with the holy Spirit unto life.

That only occurs when we preach to them that are dead that they may live according to God in the Spirit.

[Seth]

We are told to hold true to the faith or we shall not ESCAPE the fire intended for the adversaries, which consume the briars and thorns. For when they preach peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them, and they shall NOT escape.

[sheila]

we are told to pray for our enemies..as it will heap coals of fire upon their head.....and that

when God is pleased with us He makes even our enemiesto be at peace with us.

[gregoryfl]

We are told to hold true to the faith or we shall not ESCAPE the fire intended for the adversaries, which consume the briars and thorns. For when they preach peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them, and they shall NOT escape.

Indeed, for those who display the character of adversary will want nothing to do with the fire, for they know what it will do to them, which they so desperately wish to hold onto in their blinded condition. As Isaiah wrote, in part:

You will conceive chaff. You will bring forth stubble. Your breath is a fire that will devour you. The peoples will be like the burning of lime, like thorns that are cut down and burned in the fire. Hear, you who are far off, what I have done; and, you who are near, acknowledge my might." The sinners in Zion are afraid. Trembling has seized the godless ones.
(Isa 33:11-14)

[gregoryfl]

we are told to pray for our enemies..as it will heap coals of fire upon their head.....and that

when God is pleased with us He makes even our enemiesto be at peace with us.

Painful indeed, yet ultimately beneficial.  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Not just pray for our enemies, but preach life to the dead.

Water of life  not the same not the same as the wine of the wrath of God. Drink one, not the other, and be sure not to mix them because one is death and the other is life and they have no fellowship.

[eaglesway]

 ok cool, so we can share beliefs on this ;o)

You are shaing concepts of what the lake of fire is. When I say there is no preponderance of scripture, I am speaking about the actual experience- of which I believe there will be in the age to come(as well as there is in this present age). You may be more of the fulfilled view, that there will be no such future experience- I don't know. I agree tho that there is plenty of scripture concerning the nature of the judgment of God as fire.

But imo, the lake of fire is distinguished as the "second death".

Additionally, it is identified in several ways, metaphorically - as an experience of punishment/correction, as a large body of flame, as in the presence of God(rev 14:10) at the Great Whit Throne judgment- which is described in Rom 2 as the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ- their consciences either accusing them or excusing them.

In Rev 20, Rev 14, Matt 25 there is an interesting parrallel to 2 Peter 3

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

The conversion of the cosmos from rulership by wickedness to  the reign of righteousness occurs through fire. Notice in Rev 20 how it says the heavens and the earth fled away from the one who sits one the throne. In Isaiah it is written, "Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples".

The fire removes the veil, the earth will be inherited by the meek.

What mountain? Zion, the heights of which establish Jerusalem the heavenly city- the Bride.

The Bride does judge- "Know you not that you will judge angels?

Where was Gehenna? Just outside the wall of the City of God, Where are the grapes of wrath trampled out(Rev 14)? Outside the city. "And outside the city are the dogs, the immoral, etc"

To me these are all metaphors for the conversion of the cosmos from chaos and unrighteousness, into the kingdom of God- righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

In Rev 20 the words "lake of fire", do not, to me represent death, because death is destroyed in this fire- the second death. death according to paul is the last adversary. It is destroyed in the "lake of fire" which is the second death- perhaps, the death of death for all who enter- to stand before the whole assembly of the righteous, to have the secrets they would not confess revealed in the fire(Rom 2), to be purged before the One whose eyes are as flames of fire and all who constitute "the great cloud of witnesses"- until the veil that covers is consumed and they bow the knee to rejoice in the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Why were there flames of fire upon their heads at Pentecost?

Why does Hebrews 12 begin with a great cloud of witnesses , then fully expound the heavenly assembly and  then end with "For our God is a consuming fire".


25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

IMO Hebrews 12 is the shop drawing of Rev 20 and 2 Peter 3.

"Yet once more...till only that which cannot be shaken remains" speaks again of the conversion of the cosmos- which Peter says will occur through the destruction of ungodly men by the elements(elemental principles) being consumed with heat- the fire of the testimony of Jesus Christ- the spirit of prophecy.

I believe this is what the metaphor of the lake of fire represents for what adversaries who persist in resistance in the age to come will experience- as per Matt 25:46, Rev 20, Rev 14:10, 2 Peter 3,

5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

[Seth]

ok cool, so we can share beliefs on this ;o)

You are shaing concepts of what the lake of fire is. When I say there is no preponderance of scripture, I am speaking about the actual experience- of which I believe there will be in the age to come(as well as there is in this present age). You may be more of the fulfilled view, that there will be no such future experience- I don't know. I agree tho that there is plenty of scripture concerning the nature of the judgment of God as fire.

I believe that there is a likeness of the lake of fire today inasmuch as I believe that there is a kingdom today, but it is not the final manifestation of it. I believe that the day of the Lord is yet future, but has a manifestation of itself today.

Edit: Also, I definitely agree, we cannot know exactly how each person will experience it. I didn't realize that is what you meant.  :thumbsup:

I'm more looking at an overall view of what I see with regards to comparisons in Revelation. We cannot know anything more specific than that, I agree. But we can know that there is a contrast happening in the Book of Revelation.

Additionally, it is identified in several ways, metaphorically - as an experience of punishment/correction, as a large body of flame, as in the presence of God(rev 14:10) at the Great Whit Throne judgment- which is described in Rom 2 as the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ- their consciences either accusing them or excusing them.

In Rev 20, Rev 14, Matt 25 there is an interesting parrallel to 2 Peter 3

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

The conversion of the cosmos from rulership by wickedness to  the reign of righteousness occurs through fire. Notice in Rev 20 how it says the heavens and the earth fled away from the one who sits one the throne. In Isaiah it is written, "Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples".

The fire removes the veil, the earth will be inherited by the meek.

What mountain? Zion, the heights of which establish Jerusalem the heavenly city- the Bride.

The Bride does judge- "Know you not that you will judge angels?

Where was Gehenna? Just outside the wall of the City of God, Where are the grapes of wrath trampled out(Rev 14)? Outside the city. "And outside the city are the dogs, the immoral, etc"

To me these are all metaphors for the conversion of the cosmos from chaos and unrighteousness, into the kingdom of God- righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

In Rev 20 the words "lake of fire", do not, to me represent death, because death is destroyed in this fire- the second death. death according to paul is the last adversary. It is destroyed in the "lake of fire" which is the second death- perhaps, the death of death for all who enter- to stand before the whole assembly of the righteous, to have the secrets they would not confess revealed in the fire(Rom 2), to be purged before the One whose eyes are as flames of fire and all who constitute "the great cloud of witnesses"- until the veil that covers is consumed and they bow the knee to rejoice in the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Why were there flames of fire upon their heads at Pentecost?

Why does Hebrews 12 begin with a great cloud of witnesses , then fully expound the heavenly assembly and  then end with "For our God is a consuming fire".


25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

IMO Hebrews 12 is the shop drawing of Rev 20 and 2 Peter 3.

"Yet once more...till only that which cannot be shaken remains" speaks again of the conversion of the cosmos- which Peter says will occur through the destruction of ungodly men by the elements(elemental principles) being consumed with heat- the fire of the testimony of Jesus Christ- the spirit of prophecy.

I believe this is what the metaphor of the lake of fire represents for what adversaries who persist in resistance in the age to come will experience- as per Matt 25:46, Rev 20, Rev 14:10, 2 Peter 3,

5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

What you have shown is that there are SEVERAL usages of "fire" as it manifests as judgment, but not all manifestations are the same, though they come from the same God. I agree with that.

So, when I see the LOF in revelation, I see it CONSTRASTED against the life that is in the Bride. But I ALSO see that the tongues of fire are preaching life to the dead, and that is another manifestation of judgment. I think it's the wrong way to go to see fire in the Bible and simply apply it to God, but to not see also that the fire is manifested in several different ways. In the LOF it is manifested as DEATH.

Romans 1 describes the WRATH OF GOD and continues further to describe how God judges people according to the carnal mindedness they have "and receive in themselves the penalty for their error."

So if anyone has another definition of spiritual death other than "to be carnally minded is death" I would consider it in relation to the death which is the LOF. But I believe the LOF which is contrasted against the life that is in New Jerusalem and they that are, being told to LEAVE death behind and enter the open gates into life. I don't think that it's physical death though.

There are TWO aspects to the judgment of the LOF and being saved from it. WATER and THIRST. Man must THIRST for water, then LEAVE the fire and ENTER the city to receive life. That occurs through preaching to the dead.

In Rev 20 the words "lake of fire", do not, to me represent death, because death is destroyed in this fire- the second death. death according to paul is the last adversary.

What this shows me is that the lake of fire's purpose is to destroy. It even destroys death. That is what I have been saying all along. The Prodigal Son was destroyed by his own death, and in so doing he remembered his father. The second death is INDENTED to cause destruction of the adversary, but so that man can be saved. But they can only be saved by drinking the water of life. Death itself will not be saved, it will simply be destroyed. Isaiah 9 provides pretty darn consistent language to reveal how the adversaries will be destroyed by fire.  Death will simply remain destroyed. Not all manifestations of fire in the judgment fire are the same.

The prodigal son returned to his father. BUT FIRST he had to die. The process of his death is that his own sin brought him down. In the BRIDE, where the tree of life is, they have already experience that. Jesus Christ was crucified OUTSIDE the city. That is where the flesh dies, and is destroyed. When that happens, we enter into the city through life by the Spirit where the tree of life resides. What we are warned NOT to do is return to death or we will be worse off than before.

So, some people do not heed this warning and they remain outside the city where their flesh is dying but they are holding onto that death. But the PURPOSE of the fire is to get them to come back into the city. When they do, death will be destroyed because its purpose will be fulfilled. Wickedness is a consuming fire, and consumes until there is nothing left. The Prodigal Son had nothing left. And at that point all that remained for him was life, and his death faded away.

[Seth]

We are told to hold true to the faith or we shall not ESCAPE the fire intended for the adversaries, which consume the briars and thorns. For when they preach peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them, and they shall NOT escape.

Indeed, for those who display the character of adversary will want nothing to do with the fire, for they know what it will do to them, which they so desperately wish to hold onto in their blinded condition. As Isaiah wrote, in part:

You will conceive chaff. You will bring forth stubble. Your breath is a fire that will devour you. The peoples will be like the burning of lime, like thorns that are cut down and burned in the fire. Hear, you who are far off, what I have done; and, you who are near, acknowledge my might." The sinners in Zion are afraid. Trembling has seized the godless ones.
(Isa 33:11-14)

Actually Jesus says that men love the darkness. And that the outer darkness is where there is weeping and knashing of teeth. What a coincidence that the carnal mind of man causes both pleasure and suffering.

[gregoryfl]

Actually Jesus says that men love the darkness.

What is your reason for saying this? It sounds like you saw something in my post that did not agree with this.

[Seth]

What is your reason for saying this? It sounds like you saw something in my post that did not agree with this.

You said this: "Indeed, for those who display the character of adversary will want nothing to do with the fire." I believe that man has pleasure in death. The Lake of Fire is death. We don't always want things that are good for us. Men LOVE the darkness, so God will give it to them, and they shall not escape the destruction it will cause them.

[gregoryfl]

I also said this:

which they so desperately wish to hold onto in their blinded condition

Which is the darkness, a walking in death, which they do indeed love, which is why I said they wish to hold onto it.

[Seth]

I definitely agree with that last part, but the reason I responded is because I don't beleive that they know what the fire is enough to fear it.

Isaiah 9
Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
    his hand is still upraised.
18 Surely wickedness burns like a fire;
    it consumes briers and thorns,
it sets the forest thickets ablaze,
    so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke.
19 By the wrath of the Lord Almighty
    the land will be scorched
and the people will be fuel for the fire;
    they will not spare one another.
20 On the right they will devour,
    but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
    but not be satisfied.

I believe there is a SOLID application of that scripture to the LOF. Nevertheless, even if not, what it shows me is that there is a kind of fire that men WANT, even though they don't see the destruction coming. And notice that the fire is a result of the wrath of God?

"for those who display the character of adversary will want nothing to do with the fire"

I think men DO want something to do with the above fire, but nothing to do with the destruction it will cause them. Hence the warnings in scripture.

[Seth]

Ronen, looking closer I see "will want nothing to do with the fire." My bad. I didn't see the word "will." Chalk it up to my dyslexia. I actually agree, that eventually they will want nothing to do with the fire. For now, I think people love it.

[eaglesway]

I see that light consumes darkness- darkness does not consume darkness.

I see that death is "swallowed up by immortality"

I see that the "the light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it".

The lake of fire is subsequent to the first death, clearly in the scripture as it is on the page in Rev 20. The dead were raised and they were judged by the things written in the books- the books perhaps being their consciences as described in Romans 2. I personally can't see the lake of fire as death at all, since it is callled the second death and those who are cast into it had already died and been raised and stood before the Great White Throne.

Certainly don't want to get into the fulfilled view versus the historic view here, but I definitely think there is an element that reaches outside of this present age and after His appearing at the end of the age in Rev 20- and for me the LOF fits there, and only there- altho the fire of God in general is at work always- I see the LOF as a specific remedy that is for the age to come.