Soul sleep

[WhiteWings]

Such as the whole "heaven" discussion, I think there's a lot about these after-life questions that are intriguing.  Her being a believer, but still needing to have some things "worked out of her", brings up the question of where the cross, His blood, and things like 2 Cor. 5:21 comes in - "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

My personal view on what the cross did.
For me it means Jesus built  a big exit out  of death. He washed away sins. But He didn't change the nature of people. So He forgave hating people who works at IRS :winkgrin: but before the IRS-haters can enter heaven they have to lay down the hate. I think the Bible describes that as "thiefs, murderers etc shall not enter the city"

One thought is that a blood-washed, Spirit-filled believer may suffer loss, but still stand before Him as righteous and accepted in the Beloved;

Imo without Jesus there wouldn't be any resurrection of any sort. Not to enter heaven. Not to enter LoF.

losing rewards and perhaps position of service,

I wonder about. For me personally it's clear one of the rewards is being part of the 1st resurrection and rule a 1000 years with Jesus. After that we aren't told much/anything but considering the amount of forgiveness God shows I think nobody gets stuck at a certain serving level for eternity.

[jabcat]

Thanks for the good thoughts Tony.  I'll study them more closely.  Your statement of Jesus and death, and then the resurrections is interesting and likely addresses some of the following.  But I had typed all this before reading your reply, so I'll just go ahead and post it as is, as I think it will still generate further thought and discussion;

First of all, I think there's much I don't know, and then I think all of us do have bits and pieces of things.  So don't take this as a "slam".  But something about this isn't coming together for me.  If gehenna, or any sort of lake of fire (unless that is being consumed by God Himself, ending in recognizing Jesus as Savior) is still for purification – even of believers – then what's the point of believing, being drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit, spiritually renewed ("IN CHRIST A NEW CREATION") in this life?  In essence, if everyone saved or unsaved still has to be disciplined and corrected just as if the cross, the death and resurrection of Jesus had never occurred, something seems missing in all this to me.  Maybe I'm simplistic, but I still believe when Jesus draws by the Holy Spirit and gives faith to believe, we become His child ("..through believe in His name..He gives the right to become a child of God").  And scripture also says we become His righteousness.  Why would "His righteousness", those saved by the washing of the Spirit and the blood, "HIS WORKMANSHIP in Christ Jesus", still need to be "whipped into shape" – still need to stand before Him in shame?  It seems to me something's missing here.

[WhiteWings]

I understand that it is settled for you. I believe there may be more to it, however, than the aspect you experienced, but even if I am wrong about that, since others feel strongly in another direction, I feel it is wiser to leave some leeway, and examine all possibilities as they are presented. In my opinion, to say, "God showed me this is how it is" may be absolutely tru- but it would not be authoritative to me, nor would eliminate a wider view, perhaps even, that God has shown me- but I would never put it that way, altho I might share the testimony for any for whom it might be a blessing. :o)

:cloud9: I understand that but this is my portion to share. Don't take my word for anything. Ask the LORD to show you and He will. My  :2c: Blessings....

This is  a very puzzling thing for me. I know about forum rules and why Gary likes them that way. But is he the highest authority? Lemme explain that. Don't take it too personal mod team.

The Jews had self proclaimed moderators too. The priests. They decided what people were allowed to say. I'm sure they did a great job stopping zillions of false prophets. But we all know they 'banned' the One true Prophet.
So my (hypothetical) question is this. Suppose after reading all discussions here on TM Father decides to answer a few questions; trinity, free will and this topic.

So a week later, Jesus Himself has an account on this forum and starts preaching the complete truth. The only authority He follows is called 'truth' not forum rules. He doesn't use words like possible, maybe, imo and  :2c:  He would be banned within a week. Likely in the midst of the week....

I don't expect a real answer to the above, but it's on my mind.

[jabcat]

Right now there are 1,739,538,001 different understandings of scriptures, and many of those understandings are being screamed on the internet - by many people calling themselves elders, prophets, seers, pastors, bishops, mystics, seekers, on and on. 

That being the case, none of us are Jesus.  Hopefully we'd hear Him if He said "hey, I'm Jesus, the true Son of God (and not just the next guy claiming to be Jesus  :sigh:) and I want to tell you some things".  Surely we'd make an exception and not ask Him to speak as He "believes" or "understands". :)

[WhiteWings]

If gehenna, or any sort of lake of fire (unless that is being consumed by God Himself, ending in recognizing Jesus as Savior) is still for purification – even of believers – then what's the point of believing, being drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit, spiritually renewed ("IN CHRIST A NEW CREATION") in this life?

Perhaps it would make things easier to totally ignore life and death.

God created you outside of the gate of New Jerusalem and tells you, you can get back inside when you are clean. The best Fullars Soap is Jesus. So believing in Him means fast(er) cleaning and therefore fast(er) entry in New Jerusalem.
The only difference I think there is that during this life we have freedom* to wash when we want, but after death God takes control. But ultimately the whole period from birth to entry in New Jerusalem is a big bath. We are allowed to resist and we stay longer in the bath. We can cooperate (bow for Jesus) and get a quick relating bath.
:2c:



*= I personally witnessed not all have that freedom and the purging is forced upon certain persons.

[WhiteWings]

Right now there are 1,739,538,001 different understandings of scriptures, and many of those understandings are being screamed on the internet - by many people calling themselves elders, prophets, seers, pastors, bishops, mystics, seekers, on and on. 

That being the case, none of us are Jesus.  Hopefully we'd hear Him if He said "hey, I'm Jesus, the true Son of God (and not just the next guy claiming to be Jesus  :sigh:) and I want to tell you some things".  Surely we'd make an exception and not ask Him to speak as He "believes" or "understands". :)

I'm sure you would make an exception. But what if God granted one person in this thread to have 100% complete understanding on the fraction of truth discussed in this topic. Maybe that absolute truth is already posted in this thread. But it's just filed under "possibly true"

It's not just about the mods and rules. It's also about myself. I try to hold fast to the truth, but to do so I have to see the truth and I can only do that by removing false views. But my skills by separating right from wrong are very limited.

[WhiteWings]

But the one on top, the light one, was a fraction off as far as being not yet completely upright with the other one, and then He spoke "apex". We looked up the word in the dictionary, and it meant the POINT at which the sun meets the earth, the horizon. Literally, the sun/Son had not completely risen in rulership over my "earth" yet!

Makes me think about a view the ancient Jews had about the Temple (I think).
In their mind the Temple or perhaps just the HoH was a place where heaven met/overlapped earth. When I try to picture that in my mind it looks like 'your' apex.


Question about the pyramids. How did they touch? Like this?

------
\    /
\  /
  \/
  /\
/  \
/    \
------


Or like this?


  /\
/  \
/    \
------
  /\
/  \
/    \
------

[eaglesway]

Right now there are 1,739,538,001 different understandings of scriptures, and many of those understandings are being screamed on the internet - by many people calling themselves elders, prophets, seers, pastors, bishops, mystics, seekers, on and on. 

That being the case, none of us are Jesus.  Hopefully we'd hear Him if He said "hey, I'm Jesus, the true Son of God (and not just the next guy claiming to be Jesus  :sigh:) and I want to tell you some things".  Surely we'd make an exception and not ask Him to speak as He "believes" or "understands". :)

I'm sure you would make an exception. But what if God granted one person in this thread to have 100% complete understanding on the fraction of truth discussed in this topic. Maybe that absolute truth is already posted in this thread. But it's just filed under "possibly true"

It's not just about the mods and rules. It's also about myself. I try to hold fast to the truth, but to do so I have to see the truth and I can only do that by removing false views. But my skills by separating right from wrong are very limited.

All of our skills of separating right and wrong are linited. Thats why we take it easy :o)

[Cardinal]

First of all, I think there's much I don't know, and then I think all of us do have bits and pieces of things.  So don't take this as a "slam".  But something about this isn't coming together for me.  If gehenna, or any sort of lake of fire (unless that is being consumed by God Himself, ending in recognizing Jesus as Savior) is still for purification – even of believers – then what's the point of believing, being drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit, spiritually renewed ("IN CHRIST A NEW CREATION") in this life?  In essence, if everyone saved or unsaved still has to be disciplined and corrected just as if the cross, the death and resurrection of Jesus had never occurred, something seems missing in all this to me.  Maybe I'm simplistic, but I still believe when Jesus draws by the Holy Spirit and gives faith to believe, we become His child ("..through believe in His name..He gives the right to become a child of God").  And scripture also says we become His righteousness.  Why would "His righteousness", those saved by the washing of the Spirit and the blood, "HIS WORKMANSHIP in Christ Jesus", still need to be "whipped into shape" – still need to stand before Him in shame?  It seems to me something's missing here.

:cloud9: My  :2c:......I understand feeling that way, but that's the way He designed it. I don't see it as "being whipped into shape", but rather having chains broken off the captives. But as for why,
I'd have to say why didn't He just have the High Priest do the ritual needed to remove sins on the Day of Atonement, instead of all the days of sacrifices and people bringing sin offerings, all the other days of the year, that only covered it over? It simply wasn't in the plan for it to be that way.

I think there is a difference in what HE did to appropriate it for us, and what He expects us to work in conjunction with Him to appropriate. A covenant by definition is between two parties, who are BOTH expected to fulfill their part of the covenant. It would be great if He did it all (and He did) AND we never had a thing to do to work out our own salvation in entirety but that's just not what the patterns show. The last will and testament is there, but if we don't know the particulars and the requirements to receiving all of it, we miss out on parts of our inheritance.

The priest's had to trim the wicks daily (wicks being a type of flesh) else they would start smoking and obscure the view so much they couldn't see to officiate their office in there. Not to mention, smoke for air is not a good thing, causing suffocation. Same death as Judas, because he didn't trim his "wick". They were also in a sense, charged with temporarily "remitting" the sins of the people via those same sacrifices, every other day of the year but one.

If you look at what I described in my experience as being an "activity" of the priesthood's wick trimming (praying for deliverance IS remitting sins), as strictly days 1 and 2 of Jesus's comment about casting out devils and doing cures being fulfilled, with the end result that day 3, the reunion of soul and Spirit by the addition of His presence (being complete in Him), it's not that hard (for me at least) to see why it would continue on after the death of the body. There simply are no shortcuts to the pattern. There is nothing remedial about the death of the body in and of itself. I see this "activity" then as being the totality of His love and mercy being fulfilled, just as He said He would.

I think part of the confusion stems from the misunderstanding involving what sin is. It's not just an action/verb, it's also a thing/noun. Sin is a principality of some sort that keeps us from falling short of the glory of God. It's name/nature denotes what the sin is and how it works to defile.

Lust, for instance. Most people think that lust deals with only sexual impulses that are unchecked, but in reality lust is desiring ANYTHING apart from God's perfect will for us. The flesh lusts against the spirit continually. Lust is a principality, and just because we don't give it life by "watering" it so it can produce fruit from a corresponding action, doesn't mean the principality may not still be attached to the soul. Paul saw this, and that's why he said he was a wretched man and bemoaned who would save him.

I also believe the Word teaches that there is "common salvation", and then there is "pressing in to the high calling in Christ Jesus" that Paul talked about. Look at what God did with Paul, yet he saw more that he needed to press in for. Blessings....

[Cardinal]

But the one on top, the light one, was a fraction off as far as being not yet completely upright with the other one, and then He spoke "apex". We looked up the word in the dictionary, and it meant the POINT at which the sun meets the earth, the horizon. Literally, the sun/Son had not completely risen in rulership over my "earth" yet!

Makes me think about a view the ancient Jews had about the Temple (I think).
In their mind the Temple or perhaps just the HoH was a place where heaven met/overlapped earth. When I try to picture that in my mind it looks like 'your' apex.


Question about the pyramids. How did the touch? Like this?

------
\    /
\  /
  \/
  /\
/  \
/    \
------


Or like this?


  /\
/  \
/    \
------
  /\
/  \
/    \
------

:cloud9: It was like the first one.....only top one was slightly off being perfectly upright temporarily.

[eaglesway]

Like a gyroscope.

[WhiteWings]

Like....
(http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/pi5/qy4/pi5qy4kiB.jpeg)
.... two triangles mating.....

Christ and His bride.
:2c:

[Jock]

Cardinal, that's a bummer that the link didn't work. I'll paste it again here   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0OJ9diFbJ4

Also, I'm glad that this matter is settled for you. I got to thinking yesterday and my wife oft reminds me that there are perhaps things that God doesn't want to give me right now. (to reveal)

Even the Apostle saw his lack of clarity in many things. There are however many things that the Lord has told me in many ways that settle my heart by way of salvation and the preparations He is making or has made on our behalf.

I have put it out there (in my heart) to know this about the after life and I'll wait upon the Lord and allow Him to have His way, without any speculation on my part.

Eaglesway, I see wisdom in your heart in this too.


Shalom  :Peace2:

Jock.

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: My  :2c:......I understand feeling that way, but that's the way He designed it. I don't see it as "being whipped into shape", but rather having chains broken off the captives. But as for why,
I'd have to say why didn't He just have the High Priest do the ritual needed to remove sins on the Day of Atonement, instead of all the days of sacrifices and people bringing sin offerings, all the other days of the year, that only covered it over?

I partly agree with that and am not sure about the other part.

It's indeed true sins were not forgiven during the year, but just stored under the altar until atonement day.
I think it was only about the sins of the nation(s), not individuals.
I also think there wasn't complete forgiveness somehow, because if it was then that would simply mean that there is another way (animal sacrifices) besides Jesus.

:2c:

[Cardinal]

Like a gyroscope.

:cloud9: Not being aware of what that is, I had to google to get an image of one. Not sure what you mean? Blessings...

[Cardinal]

Like....
(http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/pi5/qy4/pi5qy4kiB.jpeg)
.... two triangles mating.....

Christ and His bride.
:2c:

:cloud9: Hmmm.....never thought about that. I always felt that one bottom triangle in the Star of  David represented spirit, soul and body and the other represented the trinity, but never "separated" the star before. Interesting.  :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

Cardinal, that's a bummer that the link didn't work. I'll paste it again here   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0OJ9diFbJ4

Also, I'm glad that this matter is settled for you. I got to thinking yesterday and my wife oft reminds me that there are perhaps things that God doesn't want to give me right now. (to reveal)

Even the Apostle saw his lack of clarity in many things. There are however many things that the Lord has told me in many ways that settle my heart by way of salvation and the preparations He is making or has made on our behalf.

I have put it out there (in my heart) to know this about the after life and I'll wait upon the Lord and allow Him to have His way, without any speculation on my part.

Eaglesway, I see wisdom in your heart in this too.


Shalom  :Peace2:

Jock.

:cloud9: That's very possible. I "bugged" Him for 2 years to tell me why the very bones of the prophet had life, before He finally told me. Inquiring minds want to know (even when it's not His timing yet).  :winkgrin: ( :declare: talking about myself here)

[Cardinal]

Makes me think about a view the ancient Jews had about the Temple (I think).
In their mind the Temple or perhaps just the HoH was a place where heaven met/overlapped earth. When I try to picture that in my mind it looks like 'your' apex.

:cloud9: I was so tired last night I must have spaced this part of your comment. It just dawned on me that the pillar of fire and cloud that rested upon the HOH when they stopped, would have somewhat of the same shape as the top pyramid shape!

Add to that, after this happened to me, I had a net friend who was into bible codes and was a math whiz too. Somehow he figured out how to "translate" scriptures (Hebrew has numerical values) into mathematical and geometric forms. He said he was amazed and was doing what he called "holy geometry" and sent me a flat pattern of one of them to tape together so I could see what the shape was it made, and so I could visualize what he was doing. It was from scriptures about the HOH, and it made a cube (dimensions of the HOH 10 X 10 X10 = a cube) with a pyramid on top on point again.

He asked me if I had any idea what it represented and I told him I thought it was the dimensions of the HOH which are a perfect cube, with the pillar of fire on top. It never dawned on me until just now, that this incident was "slightly" related.

Now I'm wondering also, if this is somehow why the Egyptians built the pyramid shapes in the first place. I always saw them as a symbolic mountain and counterfeit to the mount of the Lord we're supposed to come up on (saviors will arise on Mt. Zion), as opposed to what they do with burying their kings UNDER the mountain. In other words, it's as if Satan had them burying themselves in the earth/flesh, instead of coming up on top of the mount as an overcomer in the Lord. All he can do is mimic and corrupt, he can't create anything "new" under the sun. My  :2c: Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

The math behind the pyramids (and stonehenge) point to Jesus.
Sunworship too. The sun is dead for 3 days and gets reborn. That obviously points to Jesus too.
There is more of such stuff but why would the angels behind the pagans point to Jesus?


BTW Mogen David also spells the Hebrew alphabet.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Because everything under the sun that came from the Father and Son is pure, therefore anything that is not from Father and Son, can only be corrupted Word. They are not pointing to Him because they want to, they simply can't create anything new, they can only corrupt and veil what already IS. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

That would mean they know Father's plan. They already knew about Jesus' resurrection long before He came to earth.

[sheila]

....He will create something 'new' a mere woman shall encompass a man.the soul that is sinning will

die.  though our outward man perish,yet our 'inner' man is renewed day by day.

  unless a kernal of wheat fall to the earth and die...it can not bear fruit unto heaven.

....there be a spirit[brute beast] that may appear outwardly as a sheep..but inwardly is a

ravening wolf-this is the soul that is sinning that shall die

   the 'inner room" HOH..is being hidden in the secret place of the Most High...and only the 'inner

man' can ascend there alng with the something new..the mere woman[new soul] that

encompasses him.sun/spirit,moon/ soul...as the bridegroom goes forth from the chamber..so

the transit of the sun...note..the sun/moon both appear to descend below the horizon........

and come up into a new day...ascending....note apex;summit,wound with wool/[ramskins died red

double garmeted/lamb slain].  zenith;the way,azimuth  arc[k]   do sun and moon birth a new

earth[celestialbody] when they they 'know' each other? unless a kernal of wheat fall to the earth

and die..it can not bear much fruit[garden] in heaven.

[jabcat]

I keep thinking about this part of the "equation"..especially in terms of patterns continuing vs. being broken/fulfilled...

the cross
the free gift through being given faith to believe on the Son
the veil being torn
His being the High Priest that offered the sacrifice ONCE and for all

[WhiteWings]

What exactly do you mean by that? Do you see that contradicted in some way in this thread?

[jabcat]

If after death, even a blood-washed, Spirit-drawn and filled believer who's been made the righteousness of God (through the free gift, the blood applied) is still in the crucible, "running the gauntlet", instead of "ruling and reigning with Christ" and rejoicing in His presence rather than fearful at His coming;  a believer who is ALREADY seated with Him in heavenly places, then where do those things I mentioned fit in?

I'd like to hear sheila address this as well, as I believe she has some views about death, the release of the flesh at death, etc.  vs. an ongoing (even up to a year) process of continued cleansing even for believers.  Paul pressed forward, but I don't believe it was for his "salvation".  He was already redeemed, a child of the King, seated with Him in the heavenlies.  Although he did seek to live worthy of the high calling, and was concerned about his remaining faithful, etc. (obedient), he also said it was not even any longer him that was sinning since his conversion, but the sin that dwelt in him (his flesh).

I just think there's a lot to consider and I PERSONALLY see various "sides" to it, multiple things to consider/reconcile.   :2c: