I know some of you folks have a handle on soul sleep or the lack of. Jesus said of Lazarus "he is not dead, he is only sleeping". Same thing with the young girl. Then, the rich man suffering in hades/sheol. But there are scriptures that say the dead know nothing. So, what is it? Do we go straight to the throne, or go into a soul sleep,
or suffer in sheol IF sheol is a place of suffering?
Would appreciate any input
Shalom :Peace2:
Jock.
Hi Jock,
There are strong opinions on both sides of this question among members of the forum. I don't want to wade into the debate on it, but I have an opinion expressed in brief that allows for possibilities of truth in several opinions(soul sleep versus ceasing to exist vs immediately entering the presence of the Lord) here.......
tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/a-interesting-article-on-consciousness/msg171878/#msg171878 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/a-interesting-article-on-consciousness/msg171878/#msg171878)
its the 12 th post on the first page of the thread
Hi Jock, my :2c: in Ezekiel 8;3 we read of a place between earth and heaven.......also
there is a scripture regarding the silver cord being broken. In Daniel we read about a 'deep sleep'
that fell upon Daniel..and angelic visitation and visions......Paul speaks of being caught up to
the third heaven,whether out of the body or in it..he did not know.
...these things make me think there is a 'condition' between the terrestial and celestial change.
...whether it is referred to as 'sleep' as in spken to Daniel[you will sleep/rest and then rise for
your lot.] or as in Jesus word's concerning Lazarus and the maiden. I believe once the silver cord
is broken. ....there is no longer a returning unto the flesh..but a returning unto the Father[better
resurrection] Isaaih 38;12...speaks of being cut off from the loom.......if you can reckon your
fleshly body as a garmet on an earthly/terrestal loom/of this earth......and it's completion here
and as another 'change of garments' being prepared foryou[place to dwell in the heavenly/celestial loom]
you may understand the 'making of all things new"
it is my thought that God can 'suspend' between the Heaven and earth..and resurrect on earth
if He please[recieve their dead back to life]TO SHOW HIS GLORY AND POWER and has done so
to demonstrate what we can not see with earthly eyes[the better resurrection].Also,He may
issue the upward call[better resurrection into heavenlies permanantly]
the hour is come where all whom sleep in the tombs will hear the voice of the son of man.
...at His death..the earthquaked and many rose and entered the city....it is my belief that this
was a visible terrestial demonstratin of what occurs in the invisible celestial realm.......
.....these are my thoughts/perceptions regarding these things..... :friendstu:
Quote from: Jock on May 29, 2014, 07:35:56 PM
I know some of you folks have a handle on soul sleep or the lack of. Jesus said of Lazarus "he is not dead, he is only sleeping". Same thing with the young girl.
QuoteSo, what is it? Do we go straight to the throne, or go into a soul sleep,
Jesus said they where sleeping. I really doubt they were sleeping in front of the throne. At that time an empty throne imo, because the Son does the judging not Father.
QuoteThen, the rich man suffering in hades/sheol.
That was a parable.
QuoteBut there are scriptures that say the dead know nothing.
OT Scriptures. Things changed when Jesus was resurrected. So even if we could prove with 100% certainty that the OT dead people really knew nothing then still we don't know how things are right now.
:2c:
PS: In the part about the witch of Endor it's called rest.
Quote from: Jock on May 29, 2014, 07:35:56 PM
QuoteBut there are scriptures that say the dead know nothing.
OT Scriptures. Things changed when Jesus was resurrected. So even if we could prove with 100% certainty that the OT dead people really knew nothing then still we don't know how things are right now.
:2c:
Interesting point :o)
WW, How could people rise immediately at death if the Lord calls all between two resurrections?
Sheila
I find your answer quite interesting, about there being a consciousness or a supernatural state between death and resurrection. The scripture that talks about the dead knowing nothing seems to me to indicate a soul sleep or void of consciousness.
When my mother died, I asked the minister who was presiding, "where is she now?. He said "The next thing she knows, she will be with the Lord". I thought that was a good answer.
Anyways, I guess nobody knows for sure. I guess we'll find out!
Shalom
Jock
The time is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the son of God and live.
He that believes in me has passed from death unto life.
Why search ye for the living amongst the dead?
Awake O'sleeper and Arise from the dead, and the light of Christ will shine on you.
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.
For me. These few verses and some others like them throw everything up into the air like a wave offering.
When we want to establish doctrine, we over simplify the application of individual words like "dead" :o)
The dead know nothing. But wait ....."He that believes in me shall never die."
Perhaps those who are "dead"(in spirit) when they die still know nothing and thse who die yet live(in spirit) immediately enter the presence of the Lord.
I laugh at how hard people strive to sustain systematic theology and how willing they are to ignore verses that can put a question mark over their exclamation points, in order to put God in a box.
I love these words of Paul, "we see through a glass darkly" & "if anyman thinks he knows anything he knows not yet as he ought to know".
Who are the dead?
Who are the living?
It is impossible, in my opinion to categorize so simply, in the light of the whole cloth of the word- the full context.
Imo, dead most certainly is about spiritual death ALSO.
In Revelation we see ships sink, water gets bitter etc
Besides the literal meaning those things all mean people who spread God's word.
A third of the ships
Those ships sail in the non-literal sea, so it logical the ships aren't literal either.
Proverbs 31:10-14 "A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar."
---> The wife is of noble character is a ship transporting good stuff to her husband. Because the ship/wife sails a non-literal sea it's can be safely assumed her good cargo isn't literal food; but items like 'the bread of Christ'. The ships carry the Gospel, good news. They are preachers and evangelists of God's Word. A third of them get martyred.
Rev 14:13 "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." ....
Another strange one at first sight; dead people who die. The real meaning is quite simple: The spiritual dead come alive by believing in Christ and then die in Christ as martyrs.
Rivers and springs turned bitter by wormwood
Sources of fresh water. Living water. Water of the truth.
Wormwood makes this water bitter, undrinkable, and unfit for consumption. Living water will be turned into dead water. For example by injecting false doctrine which basically kills the truth. Or the more direct way, kill the source of water by for example destroying every place where the truth is taught.
Prov 5:1-4 My son, attend to my wisdom, and bow your ear to my understanding: That you may regard discretion, and that your lips may keep knowledge. For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two-edged sword.
The strange woman is a strange teaching/religion. Likely the fertility/wisdom godess Astarte that goes by a dozen other names.
And other interpretation would springs/water referencing to the amniotic fluid. Reproduction problems. Proverbs adds sexual immorality and emptiness. Little factoid: wormwood is used to make Absinth which causes a lot of emptiness. In a way this interpretation aligns perfectly with the previous one because if the truth isn't given birth death follows.
1) Living water represents the truth of the Holy Spirit
2) Springs of water represent the truth of the Holy Spirit delivered locally
3) Rivers of water represent the truth of the Holy Spirit delivered from afar
4) The sea of water represents the false/briny doctrine of a different spirit,
5) Marshes or 'bitter' water represent deadly/putrid doctrine from a different spirit
etc
There are a lot more "idiomatic verses" in Revelation.
Here is my :2c:
This post is associated with the one I posted on the word study of rephaim and nephesh (soul).
Thanks to Jock for raising this, because after my post on the rephaim subject, I wondered if anyone would raise the topic of soul sleep. Soul sleep in IMO is not found in scripture per say. For one thing, it sounds too much like protestant talk.
I believe most (many?) of us in this forum are agreed that the soul is not immortal.
Ezek 18:20 (KJV) The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ecc 9:5 (KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:10 (KJV) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
No mention of an immortal soul in these verses.
But scripture tells us that death is sleep.
God prepared Moses for death (sleep):
(Deut. 31:16). "And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall rest (sleep - KJV) [Hebrew: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers..."
Nowhere do the Scriptures state that death is "like" sleep, but rather that death is sleep. Sleep in death is a state of unconsciousness.
Jesus referred to death as sleep. Death in the grave is a sleep with no consciousness'. Jesus performed a miracle by raising Lazarus from the grave showing that He could awake someone from death. He showed that He had the power to do that. And He will bring life to the dead who are in Christ at His coming. This is the resurrection to immortality of God's elect. Resurrection into the Kingdom of God.
Sleep or death is a realm of unconsciousness. Ps. 6:5. Is 38:18. Eccl. 9:10.
Not only is there no consciousness in death, but there is no consciousness of death either.
From this I conclude that there is no such thing as a NDE (near death experience), IMO.
The dead don't know that they are dead. When someone dies, they will not know that they are dead. Not only will they never know that they are dead, they have no consciousness.
No one can experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it. It is obvious by the abundant scriptural proof that all conscious thought and life-functions cease at death. Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead.
Centuries and millennia will pass for those who died and sleep in the dust, yet they have no knowledge of death. And that is because "The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing". The billions of humans who have lived and died are completely unaware of the passage of time. The interim period between the moment of death, when their conscious thoughts ceased, and the instant when they awake to life again at the resurrection does not exist for them. It will be as if they had gone to sleep and awakened without dreaming. The passage of time is meaningless to them.
Dan 12:2 (CLV) From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."
The dead have NO consciousness. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)."For the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing..."
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (judgement).
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
So scripture says that physical death is sleep in which there is no consciousness.
:cloud9: My :2c:.....Eccles. 9:5 IMO is being taken out of context. The living know they will die, but the dead know nothing, with parallel meaning just means that the dead don't know what will happen to them beyond that (unlike the living who know they will die) because their day of judgment and resurrection has not come, nor do they know future events (so why bother asking them for direction like some people think they are doing via necromancy arts).
In addition to that, in sleep you are not unconscious, just asleep, dreams prove you have consciousness. David said, if I make my bed in sheol, You are there. The resurrection is the RE-union of soul and spirit, in the body. It was understood that Lazarus and the rich man were conscious. It was understood that Moses and Elijah were speaking to Jesus on the mount. God said I am not a God of the dead, but of the living, for all live unto Him. The soul is the part of us, that is us. Blessings.....
Eaglesway, you were right. I could just see reading through the posts that this topic has the potential for a doctrinal tennis match. So, I'll just thank everybody who wrote in and return to ponder all these things.
Here is a link on the dead from Dan Sheridan, I'll put that into the pot too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0OJ9diFbJ4
Shalom
Jock :Chinscratch:
It's funny Jock, because over the 5 years I've been on TM, I think I have heard every thought that could be expressed on the matter :o). After long consideration and many years of study, it is a subject(I have a few like this) that I am glad I dont fully understand. Where would be the mystery? What left to be revealed :o).
The Lord has been generous enough to me in the things I do understand that I am content to wait upon Him for further revelation on the things I "see through the glass darkly". When He unexpectedly gives me another little piece of the puzzle, it is such FUN!
Usually, outside of a few foundational issues related to personal salvation, the body of Christ and the salvation of all - if I belabor a subject it only with the intention of not allowing one person's or group's view hammered as nails into a wall for everyone to be hung on.
My belief is that most of the issues over which Christians divide are two sides of one coin, and the mystery(true revelation) is hidden in between, or maybe rather, within and above them.
So, as the voice spoke from heaven to the two witnesses, when I am unsure about where the foundation really is, I hearBut the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. the Lord say, "Come up hither".
After all, we are seeking a city made by God, built without the hands, whose foundations are in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.
The more we experience being seated there in Christ, the more we begin to know what is worth standing on, and what isnt- and believe me, that is not to criticize the idea of having the discussion, I just cannot bring myself to the debate any more LOLOL
I appreciate your response.
Check this out, a diagram called, "The Tabernacle of Man". I think its really good.
http://www.logoschristian.org/tab4.html (http://www.logoschristian.org/tab4.html)
I think what happens at physical death may depend on which chamber within that tabernacle your throne(affections, affinities and commitments) is.
Colossians 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
If one were to study that verse very carefully i think there is some hidden manna there :dsunny:
:cloud9: @ Jock..... I couldn't get the link to work (likely my server).
Although truth is truth and should be sought after in all things, what concerns me the most is people that think that once you die your soul is dead and "gone", as in no more, poof. This idea promotes a sort of slacking, because there is no accountability for what the soul does in life, if it can do whatever if it's only going to just go "poof".
Then there are those that don't think we even have one, or that the soul and spirit are the same thing. This too misses the mark, and makes it impossible to rightly divide scripture, because of all the patterns in the Word that involve them both.
Then the third leaning, and I suppose the least "harmless" if there is such a thing with an error, is that there is no consciousness. Jesus went and preached to the dead and since He's not a respecter of persons and since we have a better covenant, we had better hope and pray there is consciousness to enable repentance for everything the soul did not overcome through Christ while still in the body.
For me, it's settled (believe this or not) because I petitioned Him for close to a year without ceasing, to tell me the truth about what happens after death, no fairly tales, and He did by taking me in the Spirit to descend with Him to bring salvation to a soul that had passed in bondage. I know other people He has done this with.
Nothing can separate us from His love, forever. But since we continue to fall short of His glory and since glory relates to the feminine aspect of God, without a cleansed soul (wedding garment) from Him, "she" is weighted down with sins (the parallel of gravity in the natural) and cannot rise without Him, just like the axe head. My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 30, 2014, 10:52:08 PM
For me, it's settled (believe this or not) because I petitioned Him for close to a year without ceasing, to tell me the truth about what happens after death, no fairly tales, and He did by taking me in the Spirit to descend with Him to bring salvation to a soul that had passed in bondage. I know other people He has done this with.
Interesting, and a witness to "UR".
I read about a man who was taken into the realm of kolasin aonios where spirits were being disciplined...although it was difficult, he also related that daily there were angels ministering to them. How much revelation and how much (if any) fabrication, I don't know.
If there are things you "cannot tell", that's fine of course. But is there anything you can share about that experience? I.e., was it a "review", being shown what was lacking and what was needed (repentance and turning to Christ), and "introduction" to Jesus, etc.? How "long", "where", etc. Anything you can share? Blessings.
I understand that it is settled for you. I believe there may be more to it, however, than the aspect you experienced, but even if I am wrong about that, since others feel strongly in another direction, I feel it is wiser to leave some leeway, and examine all possibilities as they are presented. In my opinion, to say, "God showed me this is how it is" may be absolutely tru- but it would not be authoritative to me, nor would eliminate a wider view, perhaps even, that God has shown me- but I would never put it that way, altho I might share the testimony for any for whom it might be a blessing. :o)
Question-
Is some of this thread bordering on necromancy?
Just asking - no offence to anyone.
:dunno2: :Chinscratch:
Quote from: jabcat on May 31, 2014, 12:09:47 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 30, 2014, 10:52:08 PM
For me, it's settled (believe this or not) because I petitioned Him for close to a year without ceasing, to tell me the truth about what happens after death, no fairly tales, and He did by taking me in the Spirit to descend with Him to bring salvation to a soul that had passed in bondage. I know other people He has done this with.
Interesting, and a witness to "UR".
I read about a man who was taken into the realm of kolasin aonios where spirits were being disciplined...although it was difficult, he also related that daily there were angels ministering to them. How much revelation and how much (if any) fabrication, I don't know.
If there are things you "cannot tell", that's fine of course. But is there anything you can share about that experience? I.e., was it a "review", being shown what was lacking and what was needed (repentance and turning to Christ), and "introduction" to Jesus, etc.? How "long", "where", etc. Anything you can share? Blessings.
:cloud9: Yes, it IS a witness to UR, which is why I think a lot of people don't want to hear it (because they can't hang onto to turn or burn), just as there are some who don't want to hear it for other reasons, in part I think, because of fear. I have learned to trust Him and His Spirit so completely that if He literally picked me up like Phillip and put me down somewhere else, it wouldn't faze me, and I give Him all the glory for supernaturally removing fear from me to make such trust possible. We literally limit Him by putting Him in a box with our unbelief about what He can or cannot do with us. We serve a supernatural God who is Spirit and there is NOTHING He can't do.
I was in the church He used me to start, with 4 others. The person had passed about 8 months before. Before her passing, we had all asked God that if there was anything He could use us to carry for her to help her overcome (bearing the burdens of the weak), we were willing. This was a close relative, and I literally told Him to bring the cancer to me instead because I was not afraid of it (it is literally just a word and He is the Word above all others), if it be His will.
He told me it would have a legal right (generation curse) to come to me, but that He would not let it touch me. A year and a half later, after I started hemorrhaging buckets, I was diagnosed with terminal cancer, but He did not let it "touch me", I was healed at some point in a week's time.
It came to me this night about 8 months after her passing, that it was time to pray and seek Him for deliverance from anything from our offer to bear the burdens of the weak prayer, and so we started to do that one at a time. When it came to me, as soon as they started to pray, I went down to the floor on my back like one dead, saying, "Help me, I'm falling!" And then I literally felt my spirit in His going down through the floor, then the earth and then I heard via the Spirit, this person say one sentence to me (which He allowed to bring healing to my heart).
After that, what followed was a 5 hour deliverance of the person's soul, with Him naming to different ones, what had her bound. Things like "malice, hate, murder," ect. When I sensed it was over, I tried to stand up but couldn't stand erect. I was not in pain, just literally couldn't stand upright, and was stunned by this. I asked Him what is wrong with me, and I saw in the Spirit, what looked like two triangles, one light, one dark, point to point, like two pyramids with one on top of another.
But the one on top, the light one, was a fraction off as far as being not yet completely upright with the other one, and then He spoke "apex". We looked up the word in the dictionary, and it meant the POINT at which the sun meets the earth, the horizon. Literally, the sun/Son had not completely risen in rulership over my "earth" yet!
I know this is "extreme", but I believe we have such a short time to empty out and let Him cleanse the inside of the cup, I'm willing to be thought a "kook" or whatever, if it will help someone out there be set free BEFORE they physically die. When Jesus told the Pharisees, they would die in their sins, THIS is what He meant. My :2c: Blessings....
PS. After this happened, I met and got an email from three Kingdom ministers I know, who had experienced somewhat of the same thing, in that they saw some of "so great a crowd of witnesses" in their services. One of them was actually quite funny, because it involved two brothers. The one pastor brother would only let the prophet brother speak in a church to get his feet wet, if only a few people showed up. So when the pastor one told the prophet one to go out and speak, when he got out there, he was surprised to see a packed house. Just as He was finishing up, he realized that his deceased father was sitting in the back row. Just then, the "crowd" disappeared, and he realized why the pastor brother had let him speak. In the flesh, there was only a handful there.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 31, 2014, 01:10:01 AM
I understand that it is settled for you. I believe there may be more to it, however, than the aspect you experienced, but even if I am wrong about that, since others feel strongly in another direction, I feel it is wiser to leave some leeway, and examine all possibilities as they are presented. In my opinion, to say, "God showed me this is how it is" may be absolutely tru- but it would not be authoritative to me, nor would eliminate a wider view, perhaps even, that God has shown me- but I would never put it that way, altho I might share the testimony for any for whom it might be a blessing. :o)
:cloud9: I understand that but this is my portion to share. Don't take my word for anything. Ask the LORD to show you and He will. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: joeteekay on May 31, 2014, 01:50:12 AM
Question-
Is some of this thread bordering on necromancy?
Just asking - no offence to anyone.
:dunno2: :Chinscratch:
:cloud9: No. Necromancy is summoning the dead to have a discourse with them, for direction, ect., which is totally impossible apart from His Spirit, and is strictly forbidden. HIM delivering someone in front of witnesses, is quite another matter. Blessings....
Card, was this person already a believer, but not an overcomer, i.e., still held in carnality? Or had she not known Christ at all? Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on May 31, 2014, 02:17:26 AM
Card, was this person already a believer, but not an overcomer, i.e., still held in carnality? Or had she not known Christ at all? Thanks.
:cloud9: She was a believer who had not overcome a lot of things. My concern about her spiritual state was what prompted me to keep asking Him to tell me the truth, for her sake. I believe this is why the Jews pray for the departed up to a year after they have passed. Blessings....
Could be why christians baptize for the dead too.
Such as the whole "heaven" discussion, I think there's a lot about these after-life questions that are intriguing. Her being a believer, but still needing to have some things "worked out of her", brings up the question of where the cross, His blood, and things like 2 Cor. 5:21 comes in - "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
One thought is that a blood-washed, Spirit-filled believer may suffer loss, but still stand before Him as righteous and accepted in the Beloved; losing rewards and perhaps position of service, but not needing on-going correction. In the scenario with your friend/relative, where do you see the blood entering in here? And for what purpose if not having put her in right standing with God (i.e., made His child and not a "bastard")?
:cloud9: Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. The word for salvation in the Greek here is soterios, and also means DELIVERANCE. Now we are told that we are spirit, SOUL, and body. We are also told we are described as trees, and He is the tree of life. So if you look at it fractionally, with the 3 part tabernacle pattern, we have seed/roots, growth/bud/leaves, and fruit.
The roots are the growth that is in the mind part of the soul/heart (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he), and the fruit is what we bear in our bodies, the recompense of our reward from sowing and reaping. This is why hate is as the sin of murder. The hate is in the heart of the priesthood (soul/inside of cup), is what makes the body at large commit murder, because the body can only do what it sees it's head do. That's the fruit of hate, just as the fruit of rebellion is witchcraft, and the fruit of idolatry is stubbornness.
When He's talking about trees bearing fruit, we know He wants good fruit, but the problem is, out of the abundance of the HEART/soul of man comes only evil continually. Why? Because Eve/soul was where the seed was planted by the enemy, while Adam slept. This is why all sin is common to man meaning mankind, because we all have been impregnated with the same seed in our wombs/souls, and it's our choice whether or not to "water" it and make it grow until it produces fruit. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.
These ARE the generational curses, because they passed down through the generations.
The branches of the trees are as "arms/hands" representing works of the flesh, so once you decide to agree with the enemy/seed in your heart, and you put an accompanying action to it, FRUIT is the result.
This is why we are told to THINK on these things, ie. whatsoever is lovely, of good report, ect., and to bring every thought into captivity to the mind of Christ. And why it says out of the abundance of the HEART, the mouth speaks, and why the tongue is a WORLD of iniquity, because it literally creates the "world" your spirit is dwelling in, ie. life and death is in the tongue. The tongue, BTW, is where the worm dieth not, and is why we are told if we master it, we have mastered the whole body, but if not, it sets fire (judgments).
Now this bad blood we got, is what the blood of the Lamb cleanses, but since salvation is a PROCESS involving spirit, soul, and body not a one-time event, then it follows that in His great mercy, He will not leave the "job" undone, and so we are told that even DEATH cannot separate us from His love. These things of the bad blood, are literally of the spirit of death, or death producing seed.
Our heart/soul, is His garden, and so we read of the Shulamite in Song of Solomon, a garden enclosed, my sister, my spouse. Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares, describes the process of deliverance, with the end result. This process does not end with the death of the body, because we are more than just our body.
What we need to get ahold of IMO is that God never intended for man to die in the first place. He told them in the garden in the day you eat of it, you shall die. Obviously, they didn't die that day, Adam lived to be almost 1000 years old, which is a description of a day to the Lord, and IS Christ the DAY of rest. In other words, if they had walked in the Spirit of the proceeding word of life by which we live or have life, and had not eaten of the wrong tree, we would be conversing with Adam today, instead of bearing in our spirit, soul and bodies, both the root, seed and the fruit of what they ate.
So since that was His intention, restoration involves undoing everything in the garden that was lost, which includes the soul of man. Eve was supposed to only receive seed from Adam (representative of His spirit and her head), but she instead received seed from the enemy, which murdered them both. Cain was the resulting fruit that passed down; Satan was a murderer from the beginning. I personally believe they were twins, with each bearing the likeness of their respective fathers, and an example of the flesh warring against the spirit.
So now ultimately, here is the crux of the problem. The seed is there, and even if we don't water it by our choices, ie. giving it life in US, it is still in the heart and only He can take it out. And as I said, this principle of the body only doing what it sees the head do, means that the spiritual priesthood is accountable for what they allow to remain in their hearts in this hour, when He is wanting to cleanse the inside of the cup.
The fact that it is in our heart, is precisely why we cannot judge those in the "outer court" realm, and why if we do we will be judged by the SAME MEASURE we mete out. "They" are doing what they "see" (the soul is the realm of spiritual things) us "do" in our hearts. Which is why Jesus said, if you lust after a woman in your HEART, you have already committed adultery with her. Adultery takes TWO, ie. the heart/soul and the body of another. My :2c: Blessings....
PS. Just last week, someone I know personally told me the Lord had taken them to see the souls of those that passed on, and to deliver one of them with Him. She said she saw open pit type graves covering the earth, for as far as the eye could see, with people in them, that were very much aware of where they were. Those in the graves shall hear His voice?
Interestingly, they were bound to this area by the angel of death, who appearing in a great sweeping black robe, and like swished back and forth over the graves keeping them all in place through fear (man is in bondage to the fear of death all of his days). Also, reminds me of Satan going to and fro in all the earth, seeing whom he might devour, and that the last enemy to be overcome is DEATH itself.
She said she covered the person in her robe (our robe of righteousness we have through Him?) she had on, and the angel of death could not see her or the other person. Love covers a multitude of sins. Also reminds me that we were told if we saw someone that didn't have a garment, to give them ours.
When you see that the son of man (in you) has power to remit sins, then know that the kingdom of God has come unto you. We are called to be intercessors who by the power of the Holy Spirit can remit sins, and told that whatever sins we remit, they are remitted and whatever sins we retain they are retained.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 31, 2014, 02:20:20 AM
Quote from: jabcat on May 31, 2014, 02:17:26 AM
Card, was this person already a believer, but not an overcomer, i.e., still held in carnality? Or had she not known Christ at all? Thanks.
:cloud9: She was a believer who had not overcome a lot of things. My concern about her spiritual state was what prompted me to keep asking Him to tell me the truth, for her sake. I believe this is why the Jews pray for the departed up to a year after they have passed. Blessings....
So do Catholics. Names are mentioned during the mass.
I "recognize" that number (1 year).
They
reburied their dead in bone boxes after a year. (see .pdf I gave you a month ago)
I think ultimately the year comes from the ancient Jewish view that purification in Gehenna lasts a maximum of 12 months.
Quote from: jabcat on May 31, 2014, 02:35:46 AM
Such as the whole "heaven" discussion, I think there's a lot about these after-life questions that are intriguing. Her being a believer, but still needing to have some things "worked out of her", brings up the question of where the cross, His blood, and things like 2 Cor. 5:21 comes in - "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
My personal view on what the cross did.
For me it means Jesus built a big exit out of death. He washed away sins. But He didn't change the nature of people. So He forgave hating people who works at IRS :winkgrin: but before the IRS-haters can enter heaven they have to lay down the hate. I think the Bible describes that as "thiefs, murderers etc shall not enter the city"
QuoteOne thought is that a blood-washed, Spirit-filled believer may suffer loss, but still stand before Him as righteous and accepted in the Beloved;
Imo without Jesus there wouldn't be any resurrection of any sort. Not to enter heaven. Not to enter LoF.
Quotelosing rewards and perhaps position of service,
I wonder about. For me personally it's clear one of the rewards is being part of the 1st resurrection and rule a 1000 years with Jesus. After that we aren't told much/anything but considering the amount of forgiveness God shows I think nobody gets stuck at a certain serving level for eternity.
Thanks for the good thoughts Tony. I'll study them more closely. Your statement of Jesus and death, and then the resurrections is interesting and likely addresses some of the following. But I had typed all this before reading your reply, so I'll just go ahead and post it as is, as I think it will still generate further thought and discussion;
First of all, I think there's much I don't know, and then I think all of us do have bits and pieces of things. So don't take this as a "slam". But something about this isn't coming together for me. If gehenna, or any sort of lake of fire (unless that is being consumed by God Himself, ending in recognizing Jesus as Savior) is still for purification – even of believers – then what's the point of believing, being drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit, spiritually renewed ("IN CHRIST A NEW CREATION") in this life? In essence, if everyone saved or unsaved still has to be disciplined and corrected just as if the cross, the death and resurrection of Jesus had never occurred, something seems missing in all this to me. Maybe I'm simplistic, but I still believe when Jesus draws by the Holy Spirit and gives faith to believe, we become His child ("..through believe in His name..He gives the right to become a child of God"). And scripture also says we become His righteousness. Why would "His righteousness", those saved by the washing of the Spirit and the blood, "HIS WORKMANSHIP in Christ Jesus", still need to be "whipped into shape" – still need to stand before Him in shame? It seems to me something's missing here.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 31, 2014, 02:04:26 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 31, 2014, 01:10:01 AM
I understand that it is settled for you. I believe there may be more to it, however, than the aspect you experienced, but even if I am wrong about that, since others feel strongly in another direction, I feel it is wiser to leave some leeway, and examine all possibilities as they are presented. In my opinion, to say, "God showed me this is how it is" may be absolutely tru- but it would not be authoritative to me, nor would eliminate a wider view, perhaps even, that God has shown me- but I would never put it that way, altho I might share the testimony for any for whom it might be a blessing. :o)
:cloud9: I understand that but this is my portion to share. Don't take my word for anything. Ask the LORD to show you and He will. My :2c: Blessings....
This is a very puzzling thing for me. I know about forum rules and why Gary likes them that way. But is he the highest authority? Lemme explain that. Don't take it too personal mod team.
The Jews had self proclaimed moderators too. The priests. They decided what people were allowed to say. I'm sure they did a great job stopping zillions of false prophets. But we all know they 'banned' the One true Prophet.
So my (hypothetical) question is this. Suppose after reading all discussions here on TM Father decides to answer a few questions; trinity, free will and this topic.
So a week later, Jesus Himself has an account on this forum and starts preaching the complete truth. The only authority He follows is called 'truth' not forum rules. He doesn't use words like possible, maybe, imo and :2c: He would be banned within a week. Likely in the midst of the week....
I don't expect a real answer to the above, but it's on my mind.
Right now there are 1,739,538,001 different understandings of scriptures, and many of those understandings are being screamed on the internet - by many people calling themselves elders, prophets, seers, pastors, bishops, mystics, seekers, on and on.
That being the case, none of us are Jesus. Hopefully we'd hear Him if He said "hey, I'm Jesus, the true Son of God (and not just the next guy claiming to be Jesus :sigh:) and I want to tell you some things". Surely we'd make an exception and not ask Him to speak as He "believes" or "understands". :)
Quote from: jabcat on May 31, 2014, 07:43:32 AM
If gehenna, or any sort of lake of fire (unless that is being consumed by God Himself, ending in recognizing Jesus as Savior) is still for purification – even of believers – then what's the point of believing, being drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit, spiritually renewed ("IN CHRIST A NEW CREATION") in this life?
Perhaps it would make things easier to totally ignore life and death.
God created you outside of the gate of New Jerusalem and tells you, you can get back inside when you are clean. The best Fullars Soap is Jesus. So believing in Him means fast(er) cleaning and therefore fast(er) entry in New Jerusalem.
The only difference I think there is that during this life we have freedom* to wash when we want, but after death God takes control. But ultimately the whole period from birth to entry in New Jerusalem is a big bath. We are allowed to resist and we stay longer in the bath. We can cooperate (bow for Jesus) and get a quick relating bath.
:2c:
*= I personally witnessed not all have that freedom and the purging is forced upon certain persons.
Quote from: jabcat on May 31, 2014, 07:51:17 AM
Right now there are 1,739,538,001 different understandings of scriptures, and many of those understandings are being screamed on the internet - by many people calling themselves elders, prophets, seers, pastors, bishops, mystics, seekers, on and on.
That being the case, none of us are Jesus. Hopefully we'd hear Him if He said "hey, I'm Jesus, the true Son of God (and not just the next guy claiming to be Jesus :sigh:) and I want to tell you some things". Surely we'd make an exception and not ask Him to speak as He "believes" or "understands". :)
I'm sure you would make an exception. But what if God granted one person in this thread to have 100% complete understanding on the fraction of truth discussed in this topic. Maybe that absolute truth is already posted in this thread. But it's just filed under "possibly true"
It's not just about the mods and rules. It's also about myself. I
try to hold fast to the truth, but to do so I have to see the truth and I can only do that by removing false views. But my skills by separating right from wrong are very limited.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 31, 2014, 02:01:58 AM
But the one on top, the light one, was a fraction off as far as being not yet completely upright with the other one, and then He spoke "apex". We looked up the word in the dictionary, and it meant the POINT at which the sun meets the earth, the horizon. Literally, the sun/Son had not completely risen in rulership over my "earth" yet!
Makes me think about a view the ancient Jews had about the Temple (I think).
In their mind the Temple or perhaps just the HoH was a place where heaven met/overlapped earth. When I try to picture that in my mind it looks like 'your' apex.
Question about the pyramids. How did they touch? Like this?
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Or like this?
/\
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Quote from: WhiteWings on May 31, 2014, 08:26:00 AM
Quote from: jabcat on May 31, 2014, 07:51:17 AM
Right now there are 1,739,538,001 different understandings of scriptures, and many of those understandings are being screamed on the internet - by many people calling themselves elders, prophets, seers, pastors, bishops, mystics, seekers, on and on.
That being the case, none of us are Jesus. Hopefully we'd hear Him if He said "hey, I'm Jesus, the true Son of God (and not just the next guy claiming to be Jesus :sigh:) and I want to tell you some things". Surely we'd make an exception and not ask Him to speak as He "believes" or "understands". :)
I'm sure you would make an exception. But what if God granted one person in this thread to have 100% complete understanding on the fraction of truth discussed in this topic. Maybe that absolute truth is already posted in this thread. But it's just filed under "possibly true"
It's not just about the mods and rules. It's also about myself. I try to hold fast to the truth, but to do so I have to see the truth and I can only do that by removing false views. But my skills by separating right from wrong are very limited.
All of our skills of separating right and wrong are linited. Thats why we take it easy :o)
Quote from: jabcat on May 31, 2014, 07:43:32 AM
First of all, I think there's much I don't know, and then I think all of us do have bits and pieces of things. So don't take this as a "slam". But something about this isn't coming together for me. If gehenna, or any sort of lake of fire (unless that is being consumed by God Himself, ending in recognizing Jesus as Savior) is still for purification – even of believers – then what's the point of believing, being drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit, spiritually renewed ("IN CHRIST A NEW CREATION") in this life? In essence, if everyone saved or unsaved still has to be disciplined and corrected just as if the cross, the death and resurrection of Jesus had never occurred, something seems missing in all this to me. Maybe I'm simplistic, but I still believe when Jesus draws by the Holy Spirit and gives faith to believe, we become His child ("..through believe in His name..He gives the right to become a child of God"). And scripture also says we become His righteousness. Why would "His righteousness", those saved by the washing of the Spirit and the blood, "HIS WORKMANSHIP in Christ Jesus", still need to be "whipped into shape" – still need to stand before Him in shame? It seems to me something's missing here.
:cloud9: My :2c:......I understand feeling that way, but that's the way He designed it. I don't see it as "being whipped into shape", but rather having chains broken off the captives. But as for why,
I'd have to say why didn't He just have the High Priest do the ritual needed to remove sins on the Day of Atonement, instead of all the days of sacrifices and people bringing sin offerings, all the other days of the year, that only covered it over? It simply wasn't in the plan for it to be that way.
I think there is a difference in what HE did to appropriate it for us, and what He expects us to work in conjunction with Him to appropriate. A covenant by definition is between two parties, who are BOTH expected to fulfill their part of the covenant. It would be great if He did it all (and He did) AND we never had a thing to do to work out our own salvation in entirety but that's just not what the patterns show. The last will and testament is there, but if we don't know the particulars and the requirements to receiving all of it, we miss out on parts of our inheritance.
The priest's had to trim the wicks daily (wicks being a type of flesh) else they would start smoking and obscure the view so much they couldn't see to officiate their office in there. Not to mention, smoke for air is not a good thing, causing suffocation. Same death as Judas, because he didn't trim his "wick". They were also in a sense, charged with temporarily "remitting" the sins of the people via those same sacrifices, every other day of the year but one.
If you look at what I described in my experience as being an "activity" of the priesthood's wick trimming (praying for deliverance IS remitting sins), as strictly days 1 and 2 of Jesus's comment about casting out devils and doing cures being fulfilled, with the end result that day 3, the reunion of soul and Spirit by the addition of His presence (being complete in Him), it's not that hard (for me at least) to see why it would continue on after the death of the body. There simply are no shortcuts to the pattern. There is nothing remedial about the death of the body in and of itself. I see this "activity" then as being the totality of His love and mercy being fulfilled, just as He said He would.
I think part of the confusion stems from the misunderstanding involving what sin is. It's not just an action/verb, it's also a thing/noun. Sin is a principality of some sort that keeps us from falling short of the glory of God. It's name/nature denotes what the sin is and how it works to defile.
Lust, for instance. Most people think that lust deals with only sexual impulses that are unchecked, but in reality lust is desiring ANYTHING apart from God's perfect will for us. The flesh lusts against the spirit continually. Lust is a principality, and just because we don't give it life by "watering" it so it can produce fruit from a corresponding action, doesn't mean the principality may not still be attached to the soul. Paul saw this, and that's why he said he was a wretched man and bemoaned who would save him.
I also believe the Word teaches that there is "common salvation", and then there is "pressing in to the high calling in Christ Jesus" that Paul talked about. Look at what God did with Paul, yet he saw more that he needed to press in for. Blessings....
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 31, 2014, 08:34:56 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 31, 2014, 02:01:58 AM
But the one on top, the light one, was a fraction off as far as being not yet completely upright with the other one, and then He spoke "apex". We looked up the word in the dictionary, and it meant the POINT at which the sun meets the earth, the horizon. Literally, the sun/Son had not completely risen in rulership over my "earth" yet!
Makes me think about a view the ancient Jews had about the Temple (I think).
In their mind the Temple or perhaps just the HoH was a place where heaven met/overlapped earth. When I try to picture that in my mind it looks like 'your' apex.
Question about the pyramids. How did the touch? Like this?
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\ /
\ /
\/
/\
/ \
/ \
------
Or like this?
/\
/ \
/ \
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/\
/ \
/ \
------
:cloud9: It was like the first one.....only top one was slightly off being perfectly upright temporarily.
Like a gyroscope.
Like....
(http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/pi5/qy4/pi5qy4kiB.jpeg)
.... two triangles mating.....
Christ and His bride.
:2c:
Cardinal, that's a bummer that the link didn't work. I'll paste it again here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0OJ9diFbJ4
Also, I'm glad that this matter is settled for you. I got to thinking yesterday and my wife oft reminds me that there are perhaps things that God doesn't want to give me right now. (to reveal)
Even the Apostle saw his lack of clarity in many things. There are however many things that the Lord has told me in many ways that settle my heart by way of salvation and the preparations He is making or has made on our behalf.
I have put it out there (in my heart) to know this about the after life and I'll wait upon the Lord and allow Him to have His way, without any speculation on my part.
Eaglesway, I see wisdom in your heart in this too.
Shalom :Peace2:
Jock.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 31, 2014, 09:52:54 AM
:cloud9: My :2c:......I understand feeling that way, but that's the way He designed it. I don't see it as "being whipped into shape", but rather having chains broken off the captives. But as for why,
I'd have to say why didn't He just have the High Priest do the ritual needed to remove sins on the Day of Atonement, instead of all the days of sacrifices and people bringing sin offerings, all the other days of the year, that only covered it over?
I partly agree with that and am not sure about the other part.
It's indeed true sins were not forgiven during the year, but just stored under the altar until atonement day.
I think it was only about the sins of the nation(s), not individuals.
I also think there wasn't complete forgiveness somehow, because if it was then that would simply mean that there is another way (animal sacrifices) besides Jesus.
:2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 31, 2014, 10:28:56 AM
Like a gyroscope.
:cloud9: Not being aware of what that is, I had to google to get an image of one. Not sure what you mean? Blessings...
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 31, 2014, 10:42:34 AM
Like....
(http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/pi5/qy4/pi5qy4kiB.jpeg)
.... two triangles mating.....
Christ and His bride.
:2c:
:cloud9: Hmmm.....never thought about that. I always felt that one bottom triangle in the Star of David represented spirit, soul and body and the other represented the trinity, but never "separated" the star before. Interesting. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Jock on May 31, 2014, 11:54:11 AM
Cardinal, that's a bummer that the link didn't work. I'll paste it again here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0OJ9diFbJ4
Also, I'm glad that this matter is settled for you. I got to thinking yesterday and my wife oft reminds me that there are perhaps things that God doesn't want to give me right now. (to reveal)
Even the Apostle saw his lack of clarity in many things. There are however many things that the Lord has told me in many ways that settle my heart by way of salvation and the preparations He is making or has made on our behalf.
I have put it out there (in my heart) to know this about the after life and I'll wait upon the Lord and allow Him to have His way, without any speculation on my part.
Eaglesway, I see wisdom in your heart in this too.
Shalom :Peace2:
Jock.
:cloud9: That's very possible. I "bugged" Him for 2 years to tell me why the very bones of the prophet had life, before He finally told me. Inquiring minds want to know (even when it's not His timing yet). :winkgrin: ( :declare: talking about myself here)
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 31, 2014, 08:34:56 AM
Makes me think about a view the ancient Jews had about the Temple (I think).
In their mind the Temple or perhaps just the HoH was a place where heaven met/overlapped earth. When I try to picture that in my mind it looks like 'your' apex.
:cloud9: I was so tired last night I must have spaced this part of your comment. It just dawned on me that the pillar of fire and cloud that rested upon the HOH when they stopped, would have somewhat of the same shape as the top pyramid shape!
Add to that, after this happened to me, I had a net friend who was into bible codes and was a math whiz too. Somehow he figured out how to "translate" scriptures (Hebrew has numerical values) into mathematical and geometric forms. He said he was amazed and was doing what he called "holy geometry" and sent me a flat pattern of one of them to tape together so I could see what the shape was it made, and so I could visualize what he was doing. It was from scriptures about the HOH, and it made a cube (dimensions of the HOH 10 X 10 X10 = a cube) with a pyramid on top on point again.
He asked me if I had any idea what it represented and I told him I thought it was the dimensions of the HOH which are a perfect cube, with the pillar of fire on top. It never dawned on me until just now, that this incident was "slightly" related.
Now I'm wondering also, if this is somehow why the Egyptians built the pyramid shapes in the first place. I always saw them as a symbolic mountain and counterfeit to the mount of the Lord we're supposed to come up on (saviors will arise on Mt. Zion), as opposed to what they do with burying their kings UNDER the mountain. In other words, it's as if Satan had them burying themselves in the earth/flesh, instead of coming up on top of the mount as an overcomer in the Lord. All he can do is mimic and corrupt, he can't create anything "new" under the sun. My :2c: Blessings....
The math behind the pyramids (and stonehenge) point to Jesus.
Sunworship too. The sun is dead for 3 days and gets reborn. That obviously points to Jesus too.
There is more of such stuff but why would the angels behind the pagans point to Jesus?
BTW Mogen David also spells the Hebrew alphabet.
:cloud9: Because everything under the sun that came from the Father and Son is pure, therefore anything that is not from Father and Son, can only be corrupted Word. They are not pointing to Him because they want to, they simply can't create anything new, they can only corrupt and veil what already IS. Blessings....
That would mean they know Father's plan. They already knew about Jesus' resurrection long before He came to earth.
....He will create something 'new' a mere woman shall encompass a man.the soul that is sinning will
die. though our outward man perish,yet our 'inner' man is renewed day by day.
unless a kernal of wheat fall to the earth and die...it can not bear fruit unto heaven.
....there be a spirit[brute beast] that may appear outwardly as a sheep..but inwardly is a
ravening wolf-this is the soul that is sinning that shall die
the 'inner room" HOH..is being hidden in the secret place of the Most High...and only the 'inner
man' can ascend there alng with the something new..the mere woman[new soul] that
encompasses him.sun/spirit,moon/ soul...as the bridegroom goes forth from the chamber..so
the transit of the sun...note..the sun/moon both appear to descend below the horizon........
and come up into a new day...ascending....note apex;summit,wound with wool/[ramskins died red
double garmeted/lamb slain]. zenith;the way,azimuth arc[k] do sun and moon birth a new
earth[celestialbody] when they they 'know' each other? unless a kernal of wheat fall to the earth
and die..it can not bear much fruit[garden] in heaven.
I keep thinking about this part of the "equation"..especially in terms of patterns continuing vs. being broken/fulfilled...
the cross
the free gift through being given faith to believe on the Son
the veil being torn
His being the High Priest that offered the sacrifice ONCE and for all
What exactly do you mean by that? Do you see that contradicted in some way in this thread?
If after death, even a blood-washed, Spirit-drawn and filled believer who's been made the righteousness of God (through the free gift, the blood applied) is still in the crucible, "running the gauntlet", instead of "ruling and reigning with Christ" and rejoicing in His presence rather than fearful at His coming; a believer who is ALREADY seated with Him in heavenly places, then where do those things I mentioned fit in?
I'd like to hear sheila address this as well, as I believe she has some views about death, the release of the flesh at death, etc. vs. an ongoing (even up to a year) process of continued cleansing even for believers. Paul pressed forward, but I don't believe it was for his "salvation". He was already redeemed, a child of the King, seated with Him in the heavenlies. Although he did seek to live worthy of the high calling, and was concerned about his remaining faithful, etc. (obedient), he also said it was not even any longer him that was sinning since his conversion, but the sin that dwelt in him (his flesh).
I just think there's a lot to consider and I PERSONALLY see various "sides" to it, multiple things to consider/reconcile. :2c:
arise..shake yourself free from the dust..put on your beautiful garments....the spirit returns unto God
even if prodigal.
my :2c: we rise at death[He calls our name]..Michael and the reaping angels seperate any evil
spirits clinging to us...we gather in groups called sheaves and then are escorted up into the Holy
city....they call this..bringing
in the sheaves[for we were planted[our spirits] in the fields[earth][I sowed good seed,an enemy
hath sowed the tares] we are escorted unto the Holy city and taken in..where we are eductaed
and re-educated and perfected in our understanding...many will come from the east and west and
sit at table... doors are open all the time..because teaching is going on continously..and newly
risen arrive continously[daily sacrifices]....... that's when most men find out their true identity..that
they are sons of God. a lot of them have noidea what is going on and they are really quiet and scared at all that is taken place..because of the lying doctrines. some know and are very joyful.
seperating...at our death..... the evil spirits clinging unto a man may say to the reaping
angels..didn't we do thus and thus in your name Lord[tare] but MIchael and the reapers know
their stuff and can fulfill the Lord's command to seperaate...and easily know an evil religious spirit
from the redeemed spirit of man[just] that shall be made perfect.
this earth is a stage..and newly risen watch and learn/and are educated[wings full of eyes]
only they can see the evil spirits and how they interact with men.. It's a family affair and when
perfect in understanding we have places prepared for us..of service..to minister unto those who
are to inherit[men on earth] guardians,teachers etc....our ministry down here in the body
is just like theirs...fellow-workers] theirs is more comprehensive... as they can do things we can
not.. we are all one family of God.
ALL TRUTH,ALL LOVE,ALL GOD
your own iniquity will reprove you...since evil spirits possessing men do not rise...we are
educated by watching someone with the same problems[sin] that we did not overcome in the flesh.
we see thrugh weakness of the flesh of man,ignorance..the manipulation of man's body that he
is at a disadvantage against these wicked unseen powers. legions of angels were to keep Jesus
from their plots/lies/manipulation as the Lamb that was to overcome.[satn referred to this and
tried to twist it to his advantage when he 'tempted'] also we have photographic minds in
our rising..and fullness that we don't have now....we can become turned around and easily
tripped up without this perfection........no forgetting..... our minds/bodies then will not react
to any other spirit operating in or on it..
ps..regarding the dream Becca referred to. open pit graves........in the scriptures there is a
reference to those whose throats are an open grave....folly..her steps lead down to the grave
and we have the black cloaked/evil/negative contrast[evil religious spirit] that keeps them there
through unforgiveness and the counting of their sins against them...instead of Jesus dying for all
men's sins..and God not counting their sins against them. to me..this shows...is this the man
who would not let his captives go free? I see the vision as more of an illustration of the false
Pharisee religious spirit[angel of death] that does not enter into the city/kingdom..and hinder's
those that attempt to do so. graves are graves..even if you white-wash them.
Jesus said every hidden thing will be brought to light. When you hear of someone saying, their whole life passed before their eyes, that is perhaps what that is about, and what the lake of fire is, as fire and light are the same, they are one- so the one before whom no creature is hidden from hie sight and whose eyes are as flames of fire does an inventory, as Paul said, "For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ so that the deeds we did while in out body may be discerned(Wheat/tares; gold vs hay etc) and Paul also said evry persons works will be tried by fire for the Day shall reveal it"
There is a verse in the prophets where God says, "I will be a wall of fire around Zion", and everyman will be salted with fire and every offering seasoned with salt, so, walk as children of the day so the day wont take you as a thief, like the five foolish virgins. But nobody, in this life or after, gets into Zion without passing through that fire which is the divine nature of God.
All these principles are at work while we are in the body, and in my opinion are completed in the presence of God (the lake of fire is in the presence of God and I think it IS the presence of God and the general assembly of the firstborn gathered in heaven)- when we leave the body unless they were completed on earth(overcomers-first resurrection saints).
Many stripes few stripes- the stripes are the list of sins(by His stripes we are healed) and the lashes upon the conscience(Romans 2 judged by the secrets of their hearts before Jesus Christ in the Day) as people stand before Him and confess their sins(without confession their is no remission) and confess His Lordship, bowing the knee in gratitude and joy as the burden of their sins rolls away. There is an issue about whether that is instant, or not. I think in some measure their is unpleasantness involved of some kind for some folks because Jesus said so and I am not from the fulfilled view, if Jesus says Gehenna(Garbage burnng in the Day) is unpleasant I believe Him.
I think that in time, anyone who was not an overcomer is sleeping awaiting the Day, but God can wake anybody up He wants to anytime He wants to :o) Being an overcomer is not being some superheroe spirtual Christian, it is simply remaining faithful to the testimony of Jesus Christ and remaining contrite before Him. Some overcomers dont look as clean as some who are not overcoming really altho they look great.
The issue tho, of soul sleep versus immediate in the presence of the Lord, imo, is still more complicated than what anyone person has seen from the limit of their experience. Paul didnt kno whether he was caught up to the 3rd heaven in the body or in vision- their are limits to what we see from within time and imo that is why the scriptures speak of it from seeming opposing angles, but
They are not opposing.
I personally believe Cardinals vision- but I don't think it covers the breadth of all those who have died throughout the ages and the ages to come. I think God has more options than we like and we(I mean me and everybody) sometimes, not intentionally, but because what we've seen in the Word or in the dealings of God are wonderful things limit Him- and sometimes because it makes us feel good to be in the know.
SO with issues like these I still feel it is good to give leeway, only because the word has some SEEMINGLY contradictory witnesses.
The whole cloth of any given truth or doctrine that is of God MUST satisfy ALL the scriptures, in my discipline anyway. Peace :o)
Hey John. In the above scenario, what do you see as the purpose of the cross, the Lamb slain? Thanks.
Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[c] the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
This section of scripture sorta deals with the whole thing for me. The Lamb slain is the Logos, or Word of God, Jesus the only begotten. All that God has done is through and because of Him. In terms of judgment, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Again, for me, this is the revelation of the Lamb slain, bringing repentence and remission of sins because of the contrite heart. IMO the blood of the Lamb is applied at the doorpost(conscience, "having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience") when a person believes. No one will "enter" without the blood having been sprinkled over them(metaphorically of course, in the Spirit).
Believing incorporates contrition, repentence, allegiance and faith(and a buncha other great stuff). I don't like to speculate on specifics beyond what the scriptures give as if it were fact, but I believe, for the unbelievers of the ages- the secrets of their hearts will be laid bare at the throne of Christ when they awake and many will bow the knee instantly rejoicing in the revelation of the Lamb. Others will "call to the mountains and rocks to fall upon them and hide them from the from the one who sits on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb"(Rev 6:16) These (imo) will be instantly introduced to the lake of fire, which I believe is a metaphor for an experience of being immersed in the light of God in the face of Jesus Christ that will "bring every hidden thing to light" and consume whatever darkness remains until - LET THERE BE LIGHT :o), contrition(a broken and a contrite heart of God, you will in no wise cast out/ every knee shall bow, every tongue confess) and remission. I don't believe it will be easy. I see it as a heavenly family intervention in the presence of the Hebrews 12 assembly....
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven."27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Remember Paul said, "I have determined in the presence of God and His holy angels to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh"
There are several other places where Paul invokes the heavenly council and general assembly as if it is a real experience for him, and I believe it was. This council is always convened.
psalm by Asaph.
1 Elohim takes his place in his own assembly.
He pronounces judgment among the gods(el):
2 "How long are you going to judge unfairly?
How long are you going to side with wicked people?" Selah
3 Defend weak people and orphans.
Protect the rights of the oppressed and the poor.
4 Rescue weak and needy people.
Help them escape the power of wicked people.
5 Wicked people do not know or understand anything.
As they walk around in the dark,
all the foundations of the earth shake.
6 I said, "You are gods(elohim).
You are all sons of Elyon.
7 You will certainly die like humans
and fall like any prince."
8 Arise, O Elohim!
Judge the earth, because all the nations belong to you.
Whatever travail the experience of the lake of fire brings, praise God, will end in the cries of a brand new baby new creation in Christ, or something like that LOLOL
A lot to consider in this discussion, thanks for the good answer. :)
:cloud9: Both of your answers eaglesway, were anointed eloquence. :thumbsup: :iagree:
Thanks Card :o)
Quote from: joeteekay on May 30, 2014, 06:31:10 PM
Here is my :2c:
This post is associated with the one I posted on the word study of rephaim and nephesh (soul).
Thanks to Jock for raising this, because after my post on the rephaim subject, I wondered if anyone would raise the topic of soul sleep. Soul sleep in IMO is not found in scripture per say. For one thing, it sounds too much like protestant talk.
I believe most (many?) of us in this forum are agreed that the soul is not immortal.
Ezek 18:20 (KJV) The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ecc 9:5 (KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:10 (KJV) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
No mention of an immortal soul in these verses.
But scripture tells us that death is sleep.
God prepared Moses for death (sleep):
(Deut. 31:16). "And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall rest (sleep - KJV) [Hebrew: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers..."
Nowhere do the Scriptures state that death is "like" sleep, but rather that death is sleep. Sleep in death is a state of unconsciousness.
Jesus referred to death as sleep. Death in the grave is a sleep with no consciousness'. Jesus performed a miracle by raising Lazarus from the grave showing that He could awake someone from death. He showed that He had the power to do that. And He will bring life to the dead who are in Christ at His coming. This is the resurrection to immortality of God's elect. Resurrection into the Kingdom of God.
Sleep or death is a realm of unconsciousness. Ps. 6:5. Is 38:18. Eccl. 9:10.
Not only is there no consciousness in death, but there is no consciousness of death either.
From this I conclude that there is no such thing as a NDE (near death experience), IMO.
The dead don't know that they are dead. When someone dies, they will not know that they are dead. Not only will they never know that they are dead, they have no consciousness.
No one can experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it. It is obvious by the abundant scriptural proof that all conscious thought and life-functions cease at death. Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead.
Centuries and millennia will pass for those who died and sleep in the dust, yet they have no knowledge of death. And that is because "The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing". The billions of humans who have lived and died are completely unaware of the passage of time. The interim period between the moment of death, when their conscious thoughts ceased, and the instant when they awake to life again at the resurrection does not exist for them. It will be as if they had gone to sleep and awakened without dreaming. The passage of time is meaningless to them.
Dan 12:2 (CLV) From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."
The dead have NO consciousness. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)."For the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing..."
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (judgement).
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
So scripture says that physical death is sleep in which there is no consciousness.
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Look! Isaaih 26;13-19 O'Lord our God,'other' lords beside you have ruled over us.........
they are dead,they live no more..those departed spirits do NOT rise....v19 BUT YOUR DEAD
WILL LIVE.
if the same spirit be in you that was in Jesus Christ...it will quicken your 'dead body[soul'
that which is mortal[soul] must put on immortality...that which is corrupt[spirit] must put on
incorruption.
...as far as I can see... man's spirit returning unto God...and man's soul putting on immortality
is a 'work of God' through His son Jesus Christ...is the gospel,the reconciliation , salvation and
deliverance of man from death and corruption into the eternal kingdom of heaven.
serpent spirit/ image of corrupt one,deceived soul/mortality lose your soul, body of death/return
to dust...twice the child of hell/grave...... and just as we have bore the image of the corrupt one
so too shall all men bear the imageof the incorrupt one.
and in the last days I will pour out my spirit on all flesh...when He does that..things 'CHANGE"
that which is mortal puts on immortality..that which was corrupt puts on incorruption
you will not allow your holy one[spirit of Christ] to see corruption
p.s. Romans 11;29 for the gifts[holy spirit] and calling[from the grave] of God are without
repentance.[spirit poured out on all flesh..for it is God who cause you to will and desire to do
His good pleasure[repent] now the firstfruits He causes to repent and receive the free gift
in this life...repentance is a gift..for the dead know nothing[the hour is coming and is now..when all
who are asleep in the graves will hear His voice and come forth.....
if you..though being wicked know how to give good gifts to your children,how much more God.
regarding gifts aand calling without repentance...John the baptist..of men born of women there
is none greater[a voice calling in the wilderness..make straight paths..repent and be baptized.....
BUT he who is least in the Kingdom of heaven is greater then he............He must resurrect the
wicked so they can repent[if they know nothing they are unable to repent. they must know TRUTH
before they can repent of the lie. what father when his son asks for a fish gives him a serpent...
on His Holy mountain if a child has a serpent in his hand...it will cause no harm..the serpent will
be shaken off into the fire and a good fish given[a change of mind from serpent doctrines]
those who die in their sins[without repentance/all who reject Christ] receive the gifts and calling
without repentance.....
:cloud9: AMEN
Hi Joeteekay,
I essentially agree with you within certain parameters. You have presented some scripture, but you have also left a lot out.
Jesus, said, "He that believes in me shall not die".
The dead know nothing, but God is the God of the living, not the dead, and- as you said using Lazarus as an example, He can wake up whoever He wants whenever He wants.
The scripture about Michael the archangel disputing with Satan over the body of Moses raise the point also that God can make exceptions if He wants to. It is not unreasonable in the light of scripture that He has done so in a number of cases such as Enoch, Elijah and Moses.
Paul spoke "if by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead" the word there is "exanastasin"(only used in this one place for resurrection in the entire bible and all of the literature of antiquity) maening "out-resurrection" from the dead, which could refer to a more exclusive group such a Moses and Enoch etc.
Also, there is the first-fruits resurrection saints that were raised at Pentecost.
My point being, as I have made before, not to establish absolutes based on quotes cut out of the whole cloth of scripture. The transaction that takes place between those who sleep(i think that most souls, as you stated, sleep unconscious until their particular resurrection) and the Day is a little murky, and appear to be exceptions in the record, Like Samuel rising from sleep to speak prophecy to Saul.
There are also several places where Jesus, in metaphoric language appears to offer alternatives, for instance.
"He that overcomes will be kept from the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole earth."
Lotsa folks think that speaks of the rapture and the "tribulation period" but I think not, because the verses were written for the edification of 2 thousand years of saints, not just a few saints from the last 7 years of the age.
I think the hour of trial Jesus is speaking of is the Great White Throne. First resurrection saints will not be judged there, they will meet the Lord at the end of this age(imo).
I am not disagreeing with you so much as making a case for a wider range of possibilities.
"The time is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of God and live." The dead know nothing, until they hear the voice of God and live. Kind of a cryptic, mystical and metaphorical and full of possibilities.
Enoch did not see death because he "walked with God". Jesus proclaimed the gospel to the spirits in prison.
Moses and Elijah met with Jesus on the mount and I think one has to go a long way afield to declare emphaticly that it was just a vision, because the word vision never appears in the narrative. I've noticed that when it is convenient for them, people ignore that the word vision was never mentioned, it just says Moses and Elijah were there with Jesus, and Peter was saying, "Hey, can we just stay here? Want me to put up a tent or something?" lol
Also Hebrews 12 presents a conundrum too because it does not say "You will Come". It says "You have come to Mt Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem and to myriads of angels and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect(who, where and when are they LOL?)
Cardinal and I wer talking the other day about how every moment in time is connected to the cross, (imo) the first thought of God related to creation and mankind. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. The core, kernel of all that is extends(imo) not from "in the beginning the world was without form", etc. - But from "It is Finished" - The cross of Jesus Christ. Time, as it were, is a loaf of swiss cheese in my opinion. :o)
I know none of these verses have a "commonly held interpretation". But I am not setting forth doctrine :o), I just thank God He isnt limited by systematic theology :o)
Thanks so very much for answering some of my points. You make some very significant comments. I will certainty not be limited by traditional theology since I have cast most of it aside already.
To me it is needful to understand :
facts about what happened to Elijah : I am well aware of the teaching that he didn't go to heaven'
Same about Enoch
and the "vision" (G3700) you mention with Christ being with Elijah and Moses which John, James and Peter witnessed.
Mat_17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Also still wondering why there would be persons resurrected when Christ died on the cross (stake). What's the point? A witness for whom? Us?
Thanks again. Makes me dig deeper into HIS WORD.
Acts 2
29 Men and brothers, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he said himself, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit you on my right hand,
David is said to be dead, not sleeping.
If that means David still has some awareness(I don't see how), it means he wasn't with God when the verses were written.
Yes White Wings, it is clear from thse verses that david was not with God, ascended into the heavens when those verses were spoken.
Hi Joeteekay,
I thnk the point is, God is doing more than we can understand, and has purposes not yet revealed. An old man of God I once knew thought that the saints resurrected at Christ's crucifixion(thx) were raised to be intercessors with Him surrounding the throne.
Lev. 23:10 "Speak to the Israelites and tell them, 'When you enter the land that I am about to give to you and you gather in its harvest, then you must bring the sheaf of the first portion of your harvest to the priest, 11 and he must wave the sheaf before the Lord to be accepted for your benefit – on the day after the Sabbath the priest is to wave it.
Some hav suggested that this is a picture of the "first sheaf" resurrection at Christ's death, and some suggest that the greek(as the kjv and niv suggest) indicates that the graves burst open at His death but they werent resurrected until He was. Just food for thought :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 02, 2014, 07:27:21 AM
Yes White Wings, it is clear from thse verses that david was not with God, ascended into the heavens when those verses were spoken.
Then there are 2 options left.
David was simply dead.
David was resurrected but was still on earth.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 02, 2014, 07:33:03 AM
Hi Joeteekay,
I thnk the point is, God is doing more than we can understand, and has purposes not yet revealed. An old man of God I once knew thought that the saints resurrected at Christ's crucifixion(thx) were raised to be intercessors with Him surrounding the throne.
My view on the 24 elders
12 Tribal elders, Sons of Jacob, mainly looking after the best interest of their own tribe.
They now rule in corporation with:
12 Kingdom elders (=Apostles) who look at the best interest of the Kingdom.
Tribal submits to Kingdom. Each tribe is ruled by a tribal+kingdom elder.
The elders meeting isn't just adding a bit of scenery to the vision. It's all about millenia long tradition of assembling when matters concerning the whole nation needed to be discussed.
Exo 3:16,4:29, 17:6; 18:12-27, 19:7, Num 1:16, 11:16, 25, 30, Deu5:23, 21:19-21, 22:18, 27:1, 31:28, 32:7, 33:9, Jos 23-24, lSa 8:4, 2Sa 5:1-3, lKi 4:7,27, 8:1, lCh 23, Psa 107:32, Pro 31:23, Eze 7:26
So in theory 12 of the resurrected people could have been the elders. Not all 24 because the Apostles were still alive.
:cloud9: My :2c: Anybody else notice that it says his soul was not left in hell? Hell is simply separation from God, the soul stays bound in whatever it did not overcome in life in the body, until it is resurrected with Him. If it was not, there would nothing but a shell to resurrect.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
The soul is bound to her husband the flesh she did not overcome but rather stayed one with, but free to remarry under the law, which IS the resurrection = union with spirit of Christ. The Head/husband and the body/wife, arose together because they were now one.
Neither does our soul arise until it is one with it's true husband, the spirit of Christ. But thank God if we don't attain it in this life, we have hope because He will not leave our soul in "hell" (of our own making, ie. we are reproved with our own wickedness). Blessings....
:2c: :sigh:
:cloud9: A few scriptures to back up what I've shared.....
Job 14:22 But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.
2 Kings 4:27 And when she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught him by the feet: but Gehazi came near to thrust her away. And the man of God said , Let her alone; for her soul is vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid it from me, and hath not told me.
Job 14:22 But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword
Job 33:20 So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
Job 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psalm 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psalm 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Psalm 25:20 O keep my soul, and deliver me: let me not be ashamed; for I put my trust in thee.
Psalm 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Psalm 34:22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.
Psalm 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
Psalm 107:5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.
Proverbs 6:32 But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.
Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Proverbs 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.
Proverbs 19:8 He that getteth wisdom loveth his own soul: he that keepeth understanding shall find good.
Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.
Isaiah 10:18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standard bearer fainteth.
Isaiah 38:17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness : but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.
Jonah 2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
Micah 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 02, 2014, 07:56:04 PM
:cloud9: My :2c: Anybody else notice that it says his soul was not left in hell? Hell is simply separation from God, the soul stays bound in whatever it did not overcome in life in the body, until it is resurrected with Him. If it was not, there would nothing but a shell to resurrect.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
The soul is bound to her husband the flesh she did not overcome but rather stayed one with, but free to remarry under the law, which IS the resurrection = union with spirit of Christ. The Head/husband and the body/wife, arose together because they were now one.
Neither does our soul arise until it is one with it's true husband, the spirit of Christ. But thank God if we don't attain it in this life, we have hope because He will not leave our soul in "hell" (of our own making, ie. we are reproved with our own wickedness). Blessings....
Hi Cardinal,
Glad to see you back posting. This tells me that things must be going well with you? Thank the Lord for that. :banana:
Doesn't hell here simply mean a hole or the place where Jesus laid?
CHB
:cloud9: Hi CHB.....glad to see you back, too..... :thumbsup: :banana: :friendstu:
Hell is separation from God, to me. Therefore, people are walking around in shoe leather by the millions, that are "in hell". I see it as a state of being, not a place per se. My :2c:
:2c: :sigh:
sheol(the grave)- rendered "hell" about 50 times
Gehenna(place for burning detestable things, dump)-rendered "hell" about 10 times,
tartarus(the pit)- rendered hell 1 time
"Hell"- without traceable roots as an actual word ever written in the Logos-
OK, Wait a minute! I have never before heard (on these boards) that Hell is separation from God. I don't believe in Hell and I do believe that God will draw all things (including ALL men) to Himself in reconciliation, including even Lucifer!
If that's the path we are going down, I'm afraid that we'll be parting company. Why hang with Universalists if you believe in the torment that would beset those that have no way to be with God and with Christ??
I would rather be annihilated if that were the case.
Jock.
you are misunderstanding. nobody here believes in eternal torment. SOme do believe in a period of "kolassis" (corrective punishment). Some don't.
Altho there is no hell, we may sometimes use the word because it is "common understanding" that hell is misery and people's sinfulness and rebellion towards God can definitelt make them miserable, hence- hell on earth.
Some people believe only on earth. Some believe for a time after the Great White Throne in Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire, until every knee bows, I could go on but I won't. Just look around the site concerning the topic hell or lake of fire and you will get an idea where different peeople are on that :o)
Quote from: Jock on June 03, 2014, 07:21:03 PM
OK, Wait a minute! I have never before heard (on these boards) that Hell is separation from God. I don't believe in Hell and I do believe that God will draw all things (including ALL men) to Himself in reconciliation, including even Lucifer!
If that's the path we are going down, I'm afraid that we'll be parting company. Why hang with Universalists if you believe in the torment that would beset those that have no way to be with God and with Christ??
I would rather be annihilated if that were the case.
Jock.
:iagree: Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit?
Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? Psa 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there. In my opinion, man can be very miserable in the Lord's presence, but HE IS ALWAYS THERE.
Thanks guys, what I read earlier in the thread almost rekindled an old struggle from the past, it made me jump.
Sometimes IMO a spirit can change the pneuma in the ears of the hearer when the speaker meant otherwise. One of the characteristics of just seeing words on a screen.
Jock
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 02, 2014, 12:33:12 AM
Also Hebrews 12 presents a conundrum too because it does not say "You will Come". It says "You have come to Mt Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem and to myriads of angels and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect
Thank you for this ew, it is well put. May I venture to make a comment about this as something was called out in me when I read it along with your other text? I do hope that this does not go too far wide of the underlying meaning...
The receivers of the Hebrews letter are told to look "unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12.2)". Their faith is not in a state of completion according to the writer. They are told that "they have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin (Heb. 12.4)".
And yet they had come to (proserchomai) Mt Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem.
proserchomai => to come to, approach, draw near to
Surely this means that they have not entered into the City but have arrived at the Gates?
"Seek first the Kingdom of God". (Matt. 6:33)
"...for lo! the Kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)
"...unless you turn about, and [be] made as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heavens". (Matt. 18:3)
I believe that one needs to enter the Kingdom of God
within in order to unlock the gate to the Kingdom of God
without (Kingdom of Heavens). [This is whether it is in the body or out of it].
I believe that being "made as little children" is referring to the
innocence of a little child, the state of
purity of a little child, and the
trust of a little child (the perfect trust the child has in the attentive mother).
Until that perfect innocence, purity and trust is there, the world throws weight and sin upon the heart and mind (Heb 12:1) which so easily entangles, and so prevents entrance into the pure City. The things not of God claw their way into the soul and make it unable to enter the purity of the City.
Please note, this has nothing whatsoever to do with immaturity - it is the state of innocence. The thrust of Faith in the previous chapter (Heb. 11) is concerning a very mature Faith indeed, which allowed the Hebrews' ancestors to be tested even to death.
It is the blend of this Faith with the innocence, purity and trust of a little child which shall surely grant entrance into the wondrous Heavenly City.
Ah, a beautiful City of course - beautiful beyond the earthly mind to conceive of. But I think we have a lot to learn from the principle of God's idea of a Messiah and man's idea of a Messiah - and the difference between them.
I believe that here on earth can be found the Kingdom of God. It can be found in the tired mother working her fingers to the bone; it can be seen in the harassed father seeking to make ends meet so that his children do not go hungry; it is found in the small boy who pulls his mother's arm to show her the treasure he has found in the ground; it is the little girl who casts innocent love on the doll she is so grateful for; it is the weary old lady quietly passing out on a poor-house bed knowing that her faith in a loving God has been justified up to the hilt and praying in all humility that she has lived a life worthy of her Beloved Christ.
May I suggest about the Kingdom of God
within and the wondrous and most beautiful Heavenly Kingdom
without - that they are
not separate, but that they are as one.
And surely, once the key is found, the Gates into revelation are thrown wide open, and Life and Hope are magnified in sacredness and holiness. And the full meaning of Christ's statement becomes apparent - even while we animate these decaying bodies - that He who believes in Him and keeps His word shall
never die.
What happened to the soul sleep info?
:cloud9: The post was removed due to the demeaning attitude of the content. If you have further questions, please take it up with the mods by PM. Blessings....
I was talking about the subject of the post on soul sleep? The posts "seemed" to flip over to "hell" what are you referring to?
The brief detour into a discussion about sheol/hell is nt that far afield from the subject of death/soul sleep. The thread can continue on, or, if it becomes necessary we can split off a discussion about sheol/hell. At this point I see no problem.
The understanding that I have been given is that when a human being expires, stops breathing, physical-natural death, is dead, he/she goes to sheol[hades] the world of the dead, grave or pit. I can understand this death as sleep. This information for me is found in the Bible.
1Ki 2:10 And David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
I understand that the miss leading word "hell" is not a place of torment, it is my grave. I understand from the Bible that the human being was not given a soul nor has a soul, but is a soul, a living/breathing creature, that is what a soul is.
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls(breather's) are mine; as the soul(breathing) of the father, so also the soul(breathing) of the son is mine: the soul(breather) that sinneth, it shall die.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit(wind/breath) of God moved upon the face of the waters.
What I have not found in the Bible is any such thing as "soul sleep." (Just as I have found no evidence of an "immortal soul.")
I have no problem at all about what happens when I die, my breath will return to the Giver, my body will return to the dust, I will be a dead soul, and in that state I will know not anything, and when the time comes HE will raise the dead. I have that promise.
Micah
My spirit rose to what you wrote and I believe it to be true. :thumbsup:
Thanks
Shalom :Peace2:
Jock
only proof needed to belive in the resurrection and the LIFE ... is right here
the LIGHT WAKES UP THE DEAD /SLEEPING ,[Lazurus meaning ''whom God helps '' this little light of mine[each with a seed of Christ within ] Im gonna let it shine , let it shine , shine, shine !!! the Christ in you the hope of Glory so we can all see JESUS we are connected because of Him , being gathered into HIM, the LIGHT OF THE WORLD !!!
1:1 A man named Lazarus was sick. He lived in Bethany with his sisters, Mary and Martha.
Jhn 11:2 This is the Mary who later poured the expensive perfume on the Lord's feet and wiped them with her hair. Her brother, Lazarus, was sick.
Jhn 11:3 So the two sisters sent a message to Jesus telling him, "Lord, your dear friend is very sick."
Jhn 11:4 But when Jesus heard about it he said, "Lazarus's sickness will not end in death. No, it happened for the glory of God so that the Son of God will receive glory from this."
Jhn 11:5 So although Jesus loved Martha, Mary, and Lazarus,
Jhn 11:6 he stayed where he was for the next two days.
Jhn 11:7 Finally, he said to his disciples, "Let's go back to Judea."
Jhn 11:8 But his disciples objected. "Rabbi," they said, "only a few days ago the people in Judea were trying to stone you. Are you going there again?"
Jhn 11:9 Jesus replied, "There are twelve hours of daylight every day. During the day people can walk safely. They can see because they have the light of this world.
Jhn 11:10 But at night there is danger of stumbling because they have no light."
Jhn 11:11 Then he said, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up."
Jhn 11:12 The disciples said, "Lord, if he is sleeping, he will soon get better!"
Jhn 11:13 They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died.
Jhn 11:14 So he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead.
Jhn 11:15 And for your sakes, I'm glad I wasn't there, for now you will really believe. Come, let's go see him."
Jhn 11:16 Thomas, nicknamed the Twin, [fn] said to his fellow disciples, "Let's go, too—and die with Jesus."
Jhn 11:17 When Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was told that Lazarus had already been in his grave for four days.
Jhn 11:18 Bethany was only a few miles [fn] down the road from Jerusalem,
Jhn 11:19 and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss.
Jhn 11:20 When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house.
Jhn 11:21 Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died.
Jhn 11:22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask."
Jhn 11:23 Jesus told her, "Your brother will rise again."
Jhn 11:24 "Yes," Martha said, "he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day."
Jhn 11:25 Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. [fn] Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying.
Jhn 11:26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?"
Jhn 11:27 "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."
Jhn 11:28 Then she returned to Mary. She called Mary aside from the mourners and told her, "The Teacher is here and wants to see you."
Jhn 11:29 So Mary immediately went to him.
Jhn 11:30 Jesus had stayed outside the village, at the place where Martha met him.
Jhn 11:31 When the people who were at the house consoling Mary saw her leave so hastily, they assumed she was going to Lazarus's grave to weep. So they followed her there.
Jhn 11:32 When Mary arrived and saw Jesus, she fell at his feet and said, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died."
Jhn 11:33 When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, a deep anger welled up within him, [fn] and he was deeply troubled.
Jhn 11:34 "Where have you put him?" he asked them. They told him, "Lord, come and see."
Jhn 11:35 Then Jesus wept.
Jhn 11:36 The people who were standing nearby said, "See how much he loved him!"
Jhn 11:37 But some said, "This man healed a blind man. Couldn't he have kept Lazarus from dying?"
Jhn 11:38 Jesus was still angry as he arrived at the tomb, a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance.
Jhn 11:39 "Roll the stone aside," Jesus told them. But Martha, the dead man's sister, protested, "Lord, he has been dead for four days. The smell will be terrible."
Jhn 11:40 Jesus responded, "Didn't I tell you that you would see God's glory if you believe?"
Jhn 11:41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, "Father, thank you for hearing me.
Jhn 11:42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me."
Jhn 11:43 Then Jesus shouted, "Lazarus, come out!"
Jhn 11:44 And the dead man came out, his hands and feet bound in graveclothes, his face wrapped in a headcloth. Jesus told them, "Unwrap him and let him go!"
Jhn 11:45 Many of the people who were with Mary believed in Jesus when they saw this happen.
:cloud9: @ Micah......the only problem is, all of the 29 scriptures I posted on page 3, do not bear witness to your post above, particularly Paul's comment about spirit, soul and body. Paul was taught by some of the most notable Jewish scholars ever, in addition to being taught personally by the risen Christ. I think that makes him an unimpeachable witness. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on June 04, 2014, 09:22:42 PM
:cloud9: @ Micah......the only problem is, all of the scriptures I posted on page 3, do not bear witness to your post above. Blessings....
Job 33:18, 20, 22, 28, 30
"his soul" There is no Hebrew word for "his" ....
2 Kings 4:27
soul is vexed within her: There are no Hebrew words for "within her"
I checked "his own" which appear 238 X's and in the OT there are no Hebrew words for "his own"...
I don't understand... perhaps the translators had legitimate reasons for adding "his own" or "his"....
:cloud9: My :2c: Probably because it's universally understood throughout scripture, that there is a soul IN the body. Reading everything that pertains to it, and replacing it with the idea that man is a soul only, as opposed to having a soul, simply doesn't work in the context of what is said, and neither would there be a need to have different Greek and Hebrew words to express soul as being different from spirit.
We were made in His image, which is why we were made both male and female in one body. He called THEIR name Adam. God is a triune God, who also mentions having a soul. We are told we are spirit, soul and body. All the heavens declare His glory, as do we, it's the same pattern. Sun/spirit, moon/soul, and stars/body. Blessings...
John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life <5590> for his friends.
Matt 16:25-26
For whosoever will save his life <5590> shall lose it; and whosoever will lose his life <5590> for my sake shall find it.
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul<5590>? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul <5590>?
5590 psuche used 105 X's
translated soul 58 X's life 40 X's dead 5 X's (???)
1 Cor 15:45
living <2198> soul <5590>
There are many more scriptures to consider as we/I look for truth, especially regarding "living soul"...
Quote from: anna274 on June 04, 2014, 09:48:56 PM
Job 33:18, 20, 22, 28, 30
"his soul" There is no Hebrew word for "his" ....
2 Kings 4:27
soul is vexed within her: There are no Hebrew words for "within her"
I checked "his own" which appear 238 X's and in the OT there are no Hebrew words for "his own"...
I don't understand... perhaps the translators had legitimate reasons for adding "his own" or "his"....
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/wu.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/shu.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/po.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/na.png)
The suffix 'waw' at the end of the word for 'soul' means 'his'...meaning 'his soul'.
The English in 2 Kings 4:27 should read 'toward her'. The word in question is (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/he.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/lu.png) containing the lamed meaning 'to' and hey meaning 'her'.
There is a word for 'within her' which is (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/he.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/bo.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/re.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/ku.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/bo.png) although it is not found in the scripture you mentioned.
The nephesh of a living creature, whether man or animal, speaks literally of something that breathes. Because one's breath enters and exits the body, it is also said to be possessed by us, something that is in us, and leaves us upon death...hence the idiom, 'he breathed his last.'
The action word related to this is (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/he.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/mo.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/shu.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/na.png) which means 'breath'. This is not merely the oxygen that goes in and out of us, but also on a deeper level contains our emotions and expressions...such as is exibited when we are angry, or happy, sad, etc, and how we breathe, as well as every word we say, sent on a breath of air. This is why it is written that breath can teach:
'The breath of the Mighty One does cause them to understand.' Job 32:8.
It is this attachment of our emotional makeup with breath (neshemah), as breathers (nephesh), that gives the reason for such phrases as the soul being troubled within us, and so on.
Hope this helps,
Ronen
Thanks Ronen for so quickly sharing a very helpful--grammatical as well as scriptural--post. I will print it and study it more carefully. Again, thank you so much.
Quote from: rosered on June 04, 2014, 05:31:22 PM
only proof needed to belive in the resurrection and the LIFE ... is right here
the LIGHT WAKES UP THE DEAD /SLEEPING ,[Lazurus meaning "whom God helps " this little light of mine[each with a seed of Christ within ] Im gonna let it shine , let it shine , shine, shine !!! the Christ in you the hope of Glory so we can all see JESUS we are connected because of Him , being gathered into HIM, the LIGHT OF THE WORLD !!!
1:1 A man named Lazarus was sick. He lived in Bethany with his sisters, Mary and Martha.
Jhn 11:2 This is the Mary who later poured the expensive perfume on the Lord's feet and wiped them with her hair. Her brother, Lazarus, was sick.
Jhn 11:3 So the two sisters sent a message to Jesus telling him, "Lord, your dear friend is very sick."
Jhn 11:4 But when Jesus heard about it he said, "Lazarus's sickness will not end in death. No, it happened for the glory of God so that the Son of God will receive glory from this."
Jhn 11:5 So although Jesus loved Martha, Mary, and Lazarus,
Jhn 11:6 he stayed where he was for the next two days.
Jhn 11:7 Finally, he said to his disciples, "Let's go back to Judea."
Jhn 11:8 But his disciples objected. "Rabbi," they said, "only a few days ago the people in Judea were trying to stone you. Are you going there again?"
Jhn 11:9 Jesus replied, "There are twelve hours of daylight every day. During the day people can walk safely. They can see because they have the light of this world.
Jhn 11:10 But at night there is danger of stumbling because they have no light."
Jhn 11:11 Then he said, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up."
Jhn 11:12 The disciples said, "Lord, if he is sleeping, he will soon get better!"
Jhn 11:13 They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died.
Jhn 11:14 So he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead.
Jhn 11:15 And for your sakes, I'm glad I wasn't there, for now you will really believe. Come, let's go see him."
Jhn 11:16 Thomas, nicknamed the Twin, [fn] said to his fellow disciples, "Let's go, too—and die with Jesus."
Jhn 11:17 When Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was told that Lazarus had already been in his grave for four days.
Jhn 11:18 Bethany was only a few miles [fn] down the road from Jerusalem,
Jhn 11:19 and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss.
Jhn 11:20 When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house.
Jhn 11:21 Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died.
Jhn 11:22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask."
Jhn 11:23 Jesus told her, "Your brother will rise again."
Jhn 11:24 "Yes," Martha said, "he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day."
Jhn 11:25 Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. [fn] Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying.
Jhn 11:26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?"
Jhn 11:27 "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."
Jhn 11:28 Then she returned to Mary. She called Mary aside from the mourners and told her, "The Teacher is here and wants to see you."
Jhn 11:29 So Mary immediately went to him.
Jhn 11:30 Jesus had stayed outside the village, at the place where Martha met him.
Jhn 11:31 When the people who were at the house consoling Mary saw her leave so hastily, they assumed she was going to Lazarus's grave to weep. So they followed her there.
Jhn 11:32 When Mary arrived and saw Jesus, she fell at his feet and said, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died."
Jhn 11:33 When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, a deep anger welled up within him, [fn] and he was deeply troubled.
Jhn 11:34 "Where have you put him?" he asked them. They told him, "Lord, come and see."
Jhn 11:35 Then Jesus wept.
Jhn 11:36 The people who were standing nearby said, "See how much he loved him!"
Jhn 11:37 But some said, "This man healed a blind man. Couldn't he have kept Lazarus from dying?"
Jhn 11:38 Jesus was still angry as he arrived at the tomb, a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance.
Jhn 11:39 "Roll the stone aside," Jesus told them. But Martha, the dead man's sister, protested, "Lord, he has been dead for four days. The smell will be terrible."
Jhn 11:40 Jesus responded, "Didn't I tell you that you would see God's glory if you believe?"
Jhn 11:41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, "Father, thank you for hearing me.
Jhn 11:42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me."
Jhn 11:43 Then Jesus shouted, "Lazarus, come out!"
Jhn 11:44 And the dead man came out, his hands and feet bound in graveclothes, his face wrapped in a headcloth. Jesus told them, "Unwrap him and let him go!"
Jhn 11:45 Many of the people who were with Mary believed in Jesus when they saw this happen.
Did not Lazarus die later? If not what happened to him?
Quote from: Cardinal on June 04, 2014, 09:22:42 PM
:cloud9: @ Micah......the only problem is, all of the 29 scriptures I posted on page 3, do not bear witness to your post above, particularly Paul's comment about spirit, soul and body. Paul was taught by some of the most notable Jewish scholars ever, in addition to being taught personally by the risen Christ. I think that makes him an unimpeachable witness. Blessings....
Just asking, is there another verse in the Word that is a second witness to "body, soul, and spirit" that Paul wrote?
There may be some sense in which the various terms describing a person may reflect them as seen from various points of emphasis. For example,
1. in relation to God's giving of life (spirit),
2. in relation to his existence as a human being (soul),
3. in relation to his existence in a physical world (body).
This same conception can also be seen in Yeshua's words:
and you shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deu 6:5)
Also consider this: When one speaks of the bone as a body part, what is included in that bone automatically is the marrow inside it. The entirety is referred to as a bone, although the marrow is, like the spirit, that which gives life to the bone, which may be likened to the soul. The bone is physically made up of collagen, which may be likened to the body.
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 05, 2014, 12:52:07 AM
There may be some sense in which the various terms describing a person may reflect them as seen from various points of emphasis. For example,
1. in relation to God's giving of life (spirit),
2. in relation to his existence as a human being (soul),
3. in relation to his existence in a physical world (body).
This same conception can also be seen in Yeshua's words:
and you shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deu 6:5)
Also consider this: When one speaks of the bone as a body part, what is included in that bone automatically is the marrow inside it. The entirety is referred to as a bone, although the marrow is, like the spirit, that which gives life to the bone, which may be likened to the soul. The bone is physically made up of collagen, which may be likened to the body.
Ronen
2. in relation to his existence as a human being (soul),
Yes I agree and and with the bone and the marrow I understand..bone body..marrow spirit and with these TWO components I see what makes the SENTIENT being, person, a soul.
I can understand knowing this Heb_4:12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the
dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Piercing and dividing the sentient(our 5 senses the urges within us, our self, ego) from the spirit/breath that is ignited by grace, and imo that ignition begins at the dragging/drawing.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
:cloud9: Yes, thank you Ronen. :girlheart:
@ Micah.....looks like you already answered your question about another scripture. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on June 05, 2014, 03:53:48 AM
:cloud9: Yes, thank you Ronen. :girlheart:
@ Micah.....looks like you already answered your question about another scripture. Blessings....
Not even close. But have you found the witness?
Quote from: Cardinal on June 04, 2014, 10:01:17 PM
:cloud9: My :2c: Probably because it's universally understood throughout scripture, that there is a soul IN the body. Reading everything that pertains to it, and replacing it with the idea that man is a soul only, as opposed to having a soul, simply doesn't work in the context of what is said, and neither would there be a need to have different Greek and Hebrew words to express soul as being different from spirit.
We were made in His image, which is why we were made both male and female in one body. He called THEIR name Adam. God is a triune God, who also mentions having a soul. We are told we are spirit, soul and body. All the heavens declare His glory, as do we, it's the same pattern. Sun/spirit, moon/soul, and stars/body. Blessings...
This is just another religious theory and hypothesis, saying,"God is a triune God" that has no Bible basis.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 05, 2014, 02:39:28 AM
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 05, 2014, 12:52:07 AM
There may be some sense in which the various terms describing a person may reflect them as seen from various points of emphasis. For example,
1. in relation to God's giving of life (spirit),
2. in relation to his existence as a human being (soul),
3. in relation to his existence in a physical world (body).
This same conception can also be seen in Yeshua's words:
and you shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deu 6:5)
Also consider this: When one speaks of the bone as a body part, what is included in that bone automatically is the marrow inside it. The entirety is referred to as a bone, although the marrow is, like the spirit, that which gives life to the bone, which may be likened to the soul. The bone is physically made up of collagen, which may be likened to the body.
Ronen
2. in relation to his existence as a human being (soul),
Yes I agree and and with the bone and the marrow I understand..bone body..marrow spirit and with these TWO components I see what makes the SENTIENT being, person, a soul.
I can understand knowing this Heb_4:12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Piercing and dividing the sentient(our 5 senses the urges within us, our self, ego) from the spirit/breath that is ignited by grace, and imo that ignition begins at the dragging/drawing.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
piercing to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, joints and marrow, making manifest
the thoughts and intentions of the heartI see it like this-outer court/ body, holy place/ soul, holy of holies /spirit, golden altar of incense, heart
there is a veil between each.
When we live in the body realm, which imo is not just the skin but the senses directed outwardly into the world and mixed and driven by fleshly appetites- we need a lot of sacrifice, as were the multitudes of blood sacrifices made in the outer court.
When we live in the soul realm, "pleasures of the mind", "pride of life", we need to be "divided" by the word of God so that we can see the life in us which is spirit and so that our heart can be pricked.
"heart sprinkled clean from an evil conscience(consciousness). The heart is the highest seat of consciousness in man.
The heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it? Nobody until the word of God pierces to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart"
"and a sword shall pierce your own heart also" said to Mary, of the nature of Jesus ministry, "to the end that many hearts shall be revealed"
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
In that day the Lord will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.
2 In that day,
"A vineyard of wine, sing of it!
3 "I, the Lord, am its keeper;
I water it every moment.
So that no one will damage it,
I guard it night and day.
Leviathan is pictured in Job as "king of all the son of pride", stiffnecked, tightly armored. This carnal man, seated in the mind(psuche soul/mind, pneuma spirit/mind) must be separated, slain, brought low by the sword that comes from His mouth
Thou wouldst have me to know truth in my inner man
A broken and a contrite heart o God you will not cast out
Who will I bring into my holy hill, he that has a broken and a contrite heart
and when Peter had finished they(Sanhedrin) were pierced in their hearts and said, "Men and brethren, What shall we do?"
Today if you hear His voice
harden not your heartsIn the Day Leviathan is always being slain, being "brought up" by the sword of His mouth, pushing back the veils we've erected in our mind(wihout form and void and darkness coveres the face of the deep) making manifest the thoughts and intentions of our hearts so the we can see His face and be transformed(woe unto me Isa 6)
Before we can "rightly divide" the word of truth we need to be "righty divided" by it. Those who "hold the truth in unrighteousness" hold it in the flesh and the mind, in the bowels of Leviathan rather than in the bowels of compassion, "heady, high-minded, having a form of godliness but denying the power(transformation) thereof, from such turn away". We need the "tares" separated from the "wheat" in "the Day" so we can be gathered ;o) otherwise we are good for nothing but to be bundled for burning.
"I laid a foundation, let everyone be careful how they build upon it......... the work shall be tested with fire for the Day shall reveal it, if any man's work abide, He shall recieve a reward."
If you have bitter envy and selfish ambition in your heart, "do not be arrogant and lie against the truth"(Leviathan living in the deep) this wisdom is not from above, it is earthly(body), soulical(psuche, psyhcological) demonic(spiritual). But the wisdom from above is first pure then peaceable, easily entreated, full of mercy and good fruit.
http://www.logoschristian.org/tab4.html
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on May 31, 2014, 10:33:25 PM
arise..shake yourself free from the dust..put on your beautiful garments....the spirit returns unto God
even if prodigal.
my :2c: we rise at death[He calls our name]..Michael and the reaping angels seperate any evil
spirits clinging to us...we gather in groups called sheaves and then are escorted up into the Holy
city....they call this..bringing
in the sheaves[for we were planted[our spirits] in the fields[earth][I sowed good seed,an enemy
hath sowed the tares] we are escorted unto the Holy city and taken in..where we are eductaed
and re-educated and perfected in our understanding...many will come from the east and west and
sit at table... doors are open all the time..because teaching is going on continously..and newly
risen arrive continously[daily sacrifices]....... that's when most men find out their true identity..that
they are sons of God. a lot of them have noidea what is going on and they are really quiet and scared at all that is taken place..because of the lying doctrines. some know and are very joyful.
seperating...at our death..... the evil spirits clinging unto a man may say to the reaping
angels..didn't we do thus and thus in your name Lord[tare] but MIchael and the reapers know
their stuff and can fulfill the Lord's command to seperaate...and easily know an evil religious spirit
from the redeemed spirit of man[just] that shall be made perfect.
this earth is a stage..and newly risen watch and learn/and are educated[wings full of eyes]
only they can see the evil spirits and how they interact with men.. It's a family affair and when
perfect in understanding we have places prepared for us..of service..to minister unto those who
are to inherit[men on earth] guardians,teachers etc....our ministry down here in the body
is just like theirs...fellow-workers] theirs is more comprehensive... as they can do things we can
not.. we are all one family of God.
ALL TRUTH,ALL LOVE,ALL GOD
your own iniquity will reprove you...since evil spirits possessing men do not rise...we are
educated by watching someone with the same problems[sin] that we did not overcome in the flesh.
we see thrugh weakness of the flesh of man,ignorance..the manipulation of man's body that he
is at a disadvantage against these wicked unseen powers. legions of angels were to keep Jesus
from their plots/lies/manipulation as the Lamb that was to overcome.[satn referred to this and
tried to twist it to his advantage when he 'tempted'] also we have photographic minds in
our rising..and fullness that we don't have now....we can become turned around and easily
tripped up without this perfection........no forgetting..... our minds/bodies then will not react
to any other spirit operating in or on it..
ps..regarding the dream Becca referred to. open pit graves........in the scriptures there is a
reference to those whose throats are an open grave....folly..her steps lead down to the grave
and we have the black cloaked/evil/negative contrast[evil religious spirit] that keeps them there
through unforgiveness and the counting of their sins against them...instead of Jesus dying for all
men's sins..and God not counting their sins against them. to me..this shows...is this the man
who would not let his captives go free? I see the vision as more of an illustration of the false
Pharisee religious spirit[angel of death] that does not enter into the city/kingdom..and hinder's
those that attempt to do so. graves are graves..even if you white-wash them.
I apologise if I take a liberty here. I find this post uplifting. I believe that the Spirit unravels [through your way of putting things here] a great spiritual truth of the redeeming Christ [of the great and good God], flowing in unity of His Purpose of gathering together in one all things in Christ. It is brings hope [to me anyway] to hear some things not often heard.
That dimension adds the essential element I personally find necessary to confirm that of which I have been informed - by both the logic that God has given, and also by that which the Spirit literally speaks.
Romans
20 For the
invisible things of him from the creation of the world
are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead...
Job 12
7 Howbeit, ask, I pray, one of the beasts, and it shall direct you, And the flyer of the heavens, and it shall tell you,
8 Or importune to the earth, and it shall direct you, And the fish of the sea shall rehearse it to you.
9 Who among all these does not know That the hand of Eloah, it has done this?
Psalm 19
1 The heavens are recounting the glory of El, And the atmosphere is telling the work of His hands.
2 Day after day is uttering a saying, And night after night is disclosing knowledge.
Seeking consciousness of the Larger Purpose in the redemption / restoration of all beings by God through Christ, [and of its refining according to one's own personal understanding], is such a wholesome way to ensure that one remains mentally and spiritually healthy, does not despair, and is always ready to be used for the grand Purpose of the Supreme God, rather than be distracted into the highways and byways.
:cloud9: My :2c:......There are several problems and several scriptures that plainly show otherwise, concerning what happens to the soul at death. The angel of death is not a religious spirit, which should be obvious since non-religious people die every day. The angel of death was sent in to destroy the firstborn of the flesh/Egyptians, and it had nothing to do with their refusal to accept that Jesus died for all men's sins.
Aside from that, the leaven of the Sadducees we were told to avoid, was that the resurrection had passed already. This resurrection, is essentially what is being claimed, if the soul does
rise at the moment of death, and it is the leaven of the Sadducees. The resurrection from the dead is not just about the shell of a body. Something must first die and be buried, BEFORE it can resurrect, and that includes the soul.
The reason the bridegroom left is because the bride (our soul) must make herself ready, and SHE (this SHE includes the soul of males after the flesh, TOO) must have a white garment, a garment not spotted by the flesh (flesh here being such as lasciviousness, lust, pride, ect.).
If you study the ancient Jewish wedding customs, the groom betroths the bride, by going to the bride's house with his father and agreeing on a bride price, and they drink a glass of wine (Passover seder/last "supper") to it. Then he leaves to go back to his father's house, to build on a room and anything else he feels they will need (in My Father's house are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for you). He stays gone up to a year usually, sometimes two, depending on what he needs to do. He also builds a aperion, which is a platform.
His groomsmen or servants, hold Him aloft and off they go in the night at the appointed time to get the bride, who has made herself ready, and when she hears him coming, she is to run out and the groomsmen catch her up (caught up in the air) and put her on the platform with him, and off they go back to her new home in his father's house, where they stay enclosed alone in the bridal chamber for a whole week, alone. The custom was to put out the bridal sheet to prove the bride was a virgin, BLOOD SHED, VEIL RENT.
Now, let's say the bride/soul DIDN'T make herself ready, and she is not a cleansed white garment, which means she's not a virgin soul saving herself for only His Spirit to be in union with? If the groom were anyone but Christ, she'd be shamed beyond measure, likely stoned to death as the adulterous woman was to be, because to them a betrothal was the same as being married already.
Well this is where we ALL are right now, and death in and of itself does nothing to remedy that condition of the soul. We are told we must have a new wineskin, else the new wine will burst it. It is His infinite mercy that there IS a resurrection that obviously includes the soul that did not overcome all things while in this life in the body. The wages of sin is death, and I have yet to see anyone But Jesus Christ overcome the last enemy IN THIS LIFE. That means, all sin has not been overcome, else we would not be dying.
True to the pattern, sin was covered over the whole religious year of the Jews, and only on the Day of Atonement was it removed. The body must do what it sees it's Head do, and what the Head did was lay down His life for the others, for no greater love has any man than this. On the DOA the High Priest brought an offering for his sins, and for the sins of the people. If there had been any sin, he would have died instantly upon entering, which is why they tied a rope to his ankle so they could drag his body out if they needed to. Sin is what separates us from a holy God. The soul that sins, it shall die.
Repentance has to come before the remission of sins; this is why it says without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. The blood is the life of a thing. The things we give life through the soul birthing them OUT OF OUR HEART/SOUL, is it THOSE things that defile us, and this is what He was trying to tell us through the comments about cleaning the outside of the cup, and not the inside, and how if you lust after a woman in your heart, you've already committed adultery with her. Why?
Because even though the outward adultery may not have been manifested, the INWARD parts (soul) that are to be cleansed by the Holy Ghost, are still there with the capacity to birth until the cleansing takes place. The former is the fruit, the latter is the root. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, and we are told out of the heart of man comes only wickedness continually, and that the heart is wicked, who can know it?
Only the Holy Ghost who searches out the HIDDEN THINGS of the heart, can know it and consume it in the fire. This is why when He told them to cut down the idolatrous groves, they weren't just to cut them down, but also to set them on fire to be consumed completely. Any gardeners out there? What happens if you cut down scrub brush but don't remove the root?
And without repentance, no shedding of blood, that thing still defiles the temple. We tend to think that this shell is the temple He's concerned with, but the animal's blood that was shed in the outer court/outward works/fruit manifested, was carried into the inner court/heart/inward parts to cleanse the articles within for service unto the Lord. Just not doing the sin in shoe leather, doesn't cleanse the inside of the cup, and it is this inside that bears witness against us! Which is what He was proving by writing on the ground.
This is why salvation is an ongoing process, and thank God it does not stop with the death of the shell of the body. Paul was given to see something greater than attaining after the death of the body, but that's another topic. Again, my :2c: Blessings...
administration of death...Law covenant..written for the lawless is death,short of grace/Jesus
Christ/resurrection. the very religious self-righteous pharisees and sadducees/lawyers..as
the offspring of vipers..who sat in Moses seat. judging law unlawfully.epitomize this very spirit.
[ifthey had known..they would not of crucified the Lord]
among those born of women[soul] there was nne mre righteous than John the Baptist...what's
born of flesh is flesh
the Lord will create something new in the earth....a mere woman shall encompass a man.
note
I believe she's a free woman...formed from His side..when he was put to death..and the water and
blood come forth. Psalms 2;3 He makes me lie down in green pastures,he leads me beside
quiet waters, He re-stores my soul.[Psalm 19;7 the law of the Lord is perfect reviving the soul]
Watchmen Nee has a book out...I haven't read it all..but a some of what I have readI agree
with.. he finds it exclusionary.. when He put's his laws in the mind..His spirit..the soul is re-newed..re-stored........
Never agin will the uncircumcized enter you..to me..means..never again..the wicked spirit
contrast[thought lawlessness] to enter the newly restored creature[immortality/incorruption.]
I agree with the premise of the root being removed...every plant that my Father did not plant
shall be pulled up by the roots....HOWEVER...not until harvest..lest ye uproot the wheat.
.....it was 'granted' her...to be clothed in clean white linen........
When a king sit's on his throne to judge,he winnows out evil with his eyes.
Proverbs 20;9 Who can say,'I have kept my heart pure,I am clean and without sin,?" Differing
weights and differing measures,the Lord detests them both.....
The Most Beautiful of women...is a new creature[spirit,soul,bdy] a woman created of God from
the son of God's side.
Rev 21;5 He who was seated on the throne said ' I AM MAKING EVERYTHING NEW! Then He said..
WRITE THIS DOWN,FOR THESE WORDS ARE TRUSTWORTHY AND TRUE
by no means am I discouragining the pressing in..the drawing nigh to Him..but all must realize
it is ...'by MY SPIRIT" that anything is overcome,renewed,saved or created.
leaven of the Pharisee's and Sadducees inMt 16 were seeking after a sign..but He told them the
only sign they would get was the sign of Jonah. so..they set 'guards' over the tomb..and to this
day..that same spirit places guards over the tombs.
then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread,
but to guard against the 'teaching' of the Pharisee's and sadducee's.
you see...they said some-one[His disciples] stole His dead body[dead shell]
the last enemy 'death' is overcome. not many believe..unto the saving of the soul...
.
It is true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul." Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL. Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL. Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit.
I too, until recent years, referred to man as having three "components"--body, soul, and spirit. NOT TRUE. Man is made of TWO components--body and spirit. God never put a soul into Adam. The soul of man is not a component, but rather the product of two combined components, namely: body and spirit. God formed man's body out of the ground. He then breathed into this body the breath of life (spirit), and the MAN, not some separate component, but the man became a "LIVING SOUL." The soul is not the living soul, but rather the man is the living soul. There is no soul without the body of man. Understood? God is not a trinity and neither is man a trinity. :HeartThrob:
I want to share an expierence I had. shortly after I came out of a very legalistic religion..that
believed in eternal death...and had recently learned about the salvation of all men...I had a dream.
in this dream,my mother was naked and lying in a ditch,dead. I become very upset..and began
ministering unto her..clothed her..got her out of the ditch..and up into a chair...my mother was
alive.
when I had and believed dragon breath/doctrines of demons...my mother dead in the ditch....
blind guides leading the blind both fall in the ditch..that was my deceived reality........
but when the scales fell off my eyes..and the salvation/reconciliation of all men was declared
to me and believed..my spirit was quickened....
when we judge the dead as unworthy of life/resurrection/grace/restoration and the love of God
because they do not not meet our 'preconceived' religious idea of what/who should be resurrected
THAT SPIRIT IN ME PRESENTED ITSELF AS GOD IN MY TEMPLE..it took the breath of Christ to
consume that spirit in me..and He did away with it..with the glory of His coming to me......
.
all ten virgins slept[an enemy hath done this in the night[sown tares]
a call went out..the Bridegroom cometh!! those that were ready/had enough oil/trimmed wick
went in.
the Good Samaritan............the priest,levite and the good samaritan.........the Lord..with the breath
of His coming changed me from one who was concerned with ' religious ritual purity'..into the good
samaritan. I prefer the good samaritan.....now, the Lrd said,at one time..ye samritans know not
what ye worship.........but then agains He said 'I will make ye envious by a people without knowledge
Romans 10;19
Isaaih 30;21-22 whether you turn to the right or to the left,you will hear a voice behind you
saying,'this is the way,walk in it. Then you will defile your idols overlaid with silver and gold[think
babylon religious image here] you will throw them away like a menstrual cloth and say to them
'away with you!"[o'virgin daughter babylon]
Isaaih 55;1-4 Come! All you who are thirsty,come to the waters;and you who have no money
come buy and eat! Come,buy wine and milk,without money and without cost. Why spend
money on what is not bread,and your labour on what does not satisfy?
Listen,listen to me.........and your soul will delight in the richest of fare. Give ear and come
to me; hear me..that your soul may live.
Rev 18;2 With a mighty voice he shouted; Fallen,fallen is Babylon the Great! She has become
a home for demons[doctrines] and a haunt for every evil spirit,a haunt for every unclean
detestable bird.......
Isaaih 35;8 And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean
[from now on call no man unclean]will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in the Way.
wicked fools will not go about on it. No lion will be there,nor any ferocious beast get up on it,
they will not be found there. But only the redeemed[all men bought with His blood] will walk
there, and the ransomed of the LOrd will return. They will enter Zion with singing[bringing
in the sheaves] everlasting joy will crown their heads. Gladness and joy will overtake them
and sorrow and sighing will flee away.
Sheila
Enjoyed those posts, especially the one about the Samaritan. The Jews viewed them as unclean and they were enemies of the Jews, but not this man! He was commended by Yeshua because he had a good heart. The Lord has promised that He will take away our hearts of stone and give us hearts of flesh. I say "yay and Amen".
Micah, one question: If God is not a trinity, therefore we are not a trinity. In what manner are we formed in the image of God? If we have no soul at death, what rises to God at His call? Can't be our body, our spirit is already gone. Sounds like God may re join body with spirit, giving us a spiritual body. Oh well, just some meanderings in my grey matter.
Shalom :banana: :banana:
Jock
Look! John 8;48-51 The jews answered him,'aren't we right in saying you are a samaritan,
and demon-possessed? I AM not possessed by a demon,Jesus said, but I honour My Father
and you dishonour me....
Quote from: sheila on June 08, 2014, 05:25:40 AM
administration of death...Law covenant..written for the lawless is death,short of grace/Jesus
Christ/resurrection. the very religious self-righteous pharisees and sadducees/lawyers..as
the offspring of vipers..who sat in Moses seat. judging law unlawfully.epitomize this very spirit.
[ifthey had known..they would not of crucified the Lord]
among those born of women[soul] there was nne mre righteous than John the Baptist...what's
born of flesh is flesh
the Lord will create something new in the earth....a mere woman shall encompass a man.
note
I believe she's a free woman...formed from His side..when he was put to death..and the water and
blood come forth. Psalms 2;3 He makes me lie down in green pastures,he leads me beside
quiet waters, He re-stores my soul.[Psalm 19;7 the law of the Lord is perfect reviving the soul]
Watchmen Nee has a book out...I haven't read it all..but a some of what I have readI agree
with.. he finds it exclusionary.. when He put's his laws in the mind..His spirit..the soul is re-newed..re-stored........
Never agin will the uncircumcized enter you..to me..means..never again..the wicked spirit
contrast[thought lawlessness] to enter the newly restored creature[immortality/incorruption.]
I agree with the premise of the root being removed...every plant that my Father did not plant
shall be pulled up by the roots....HOWEVER...not until harvest..lest ye uproot the wheat.
My :2c:.....For any reading my next few posts, Sheila and I are friends, so no contention here if we disagree....we just.....disagree. :Peace2:
And that's what I'm trying to explain. It WAS a harvest. The soul coming into union with the Spirit IS the first resurrection and the resurrection IS a harvest. You apparently think it didn't happen because "THE HARVEST" hasn't happened yet, according to the "church" doctrine?
The 7th day that HE IS and that WE are to be one with (our DAY OF REST), is no part darkness FOR THAT REASON, the soul has been cleansed = no more works of the Holy Ghost needing to be done, the flesh (that the soul birthed) is no longer warring against the Spirit (because it's been removed/consumed) = HIS peace, a part of the KINGDOM. The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy. It's not a place, it's a PERSON, we put on, like a GARMENT. However, remember no fornicators, idolators, covenant breakers (soul not in covenant/union with Spirit) shall enter in.
THIS IS the "marriage"/union of soul and Spirit, and since it's all about Him, HE has to do the finishing work; we have to be willing and press in. His bride is NOT our flesh body, the flesh profits NOTHING, without a soul and only His Spirit you'd have JESUS, the "you" part of the equation would be non-existent.
Some people think they've proved the harvest hasn't come already (for ANYONE), not realizing or taking to heart what He said. The woman at the well said I know I shall rise in the last day. Jesus, correcting her, said, I AM THE RESURECCTION (or the last day). That's the same as saying He's the 7th day, the day of rest, no part darkness, the Holy of Holies in pattern where only God was, and because of that, NO DEATH, NO DARKNESS.
That means, that just as He told the woman 2000 years ago, paraphrasing, I AM THE SEVENTH DAY, THE DAY OF NO PART DARKNESS, THE REST MOSES COULDN'T GIVE. And because the 7th day is a SON, and that son is a SPIRIT, it has no beginning and no end, ie. no earthly time was EVER a boundary to entering into that which is beyond the veil via a resurrection, of which Elijah was a type while still in the body. Moses is the type of those that are resurrected after death of the body, who died in his sin. Yet both were alive in Him, WAY BEFORE the resurrection the "church" looks for to happen.
So TODAY, harden not your hearts/soul (stony heart instead of replacing it with celestial/Spiritual flesh) and LIVE.
.....it was 'granted' her...to be clothed in clean white linen........
When a king sit's on his throne to judge,he winnows out evil with his eyes.
Proverbs 20;9 Who can say,'I have kept my heart pure,I am clean and without sin,?" Differing
weights and differing measures,the Lord detests them both.....
The Most Beautiful of women...is a new creature[spirit,soul,bdy] a woman created of God from
the son of God's side.
Rev 21;5 He who was seated on the throne said ' I AM MAKING EVERYTHING NEW! Then He said..
WRITE THIS DOWN,FOR THESE WORDS ARE TRUSTWORTHY AND TRUE
by no means am I discouragining the pressing in..the drawing nigh to Him..but all must realize
it is ...'by MY SPIRIT" that anything is overcome,renewed,saved or created.
Never said it wasn't. Just the opposite.
leaven of the Pharisee's and Sadducees inMt 16 were seeking after a sign..but He told them the
only sign they would get was the sign of Jonah. so..they set 'guards' over the tomb..and to this
day..that same spirit places guards over the tombs.
then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread,
but to guard against the 'teaching' of the Pharisee's and sadducee's.
you see...they said some-one[His disciples] stole His dead body[dead shell]
And that spirit still tries and does claim the shell because it bears in it's body the FRUIT of the ROOTS = death, from SIN. And so Jesus, who ALONE possessed His soul exclusively, could say (and then demonstrate with a resurrection proving it), the prince of this world cometh and he hath nothing IN ME. It is not good for man/spirit to be alone, and so He created a soul in union/covenant. When the soul sinned, first it broke covenant with God, and then covenant with man/Adam.
Tell me-can you (or anyone else) claim that the Spirit of God possesses their own soul at this moment and that the enemy of our souls has nothing in us? I can't. True to pattern, I offer up sacrifices of that carnal beastly nature daily, and await the fire to consume the roots. What about if you died tomorrow? What was there about death that changed that condition of the soul laden with sins? NOTHING. BUT we have a promise that He will not leave our soul in "hell" (separated), and that promise fulfilled is what I (and the people with me) was a witness to.
the last enemy 'death' is overcome. not many believe..unto the saving of the soul...
EXACTLY.
.
Quote from: sheila on June 08, 2014, 07:04:14 AM
I want to share an expierence I had. shortly after I came out of a very legalistic religion..that
believed in eternal death...and had recently learned about the salvation of all men...I had a dream.
in this dream,my mother was naked and lying in a ditch,dead. I become very upset..and began
ministering unto her..clothed her..got her out of the ditch..and up into a chair...my mother was
alive.
when I had and believed dragon breath/doctrines of demons...my mother dead in the ditch....
blind guides leading the blind both fall in the ditch..that was my deceived reality........
but when the scales fell off my eyes..and the salvation/reconciliation of all men was declared
to me and believed..my spirit was quickened....
when we judge the dead as unworthy of life/resurrection/grace/restoration and the love of God
because they do not not meet our 'preconceived' religious idea of what/who should be resurrected
THAT SPIRIT IN ME PRESENTED ITSELF AS GOD IN MY TEMPLE..it took the breath of Christ to
consume that spirit in me..and He did away with it..with the glory of His coming to me......
My :2c:.....I didn't judge the dead of ANYTHING. I was shown her condition in the Spirit, BEFORE she died, and for this reason, I asked for months to tell me the truth (no "Christian" fairy tales) of what happens to us after death. In His mercy, He took the image from me that I was shown initially, giving me the choice as to whether or not I wanted to remember what I had been shown (because of the shock value). I awoke KNOWING I had seen something horrible.
I told Him that I was willing if it would help her, and I prayed for about 10 minutes, and then He let me remember what I had seen. THAT is what prompted all of this, not MY judging of the dead, or any "preconceived" ideas or "religious spirit", ect. If I had stayed true to the religious spirit doctrines the "church" believe, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Blessings....
.
Quote from: sheila on June 08, 2014, 05:55:02 PM
Isaaih 30;21-22 whether you turn to the right or to the left,you will hear a voice behind you
saying,'this is the way,walk in it. Then you will defile your idols overlaid with silver and gold[think
babylon religious image here] you will throw them away like a menstrual cloth and say to them
'away with you!"[o'virgin daughter babylon]
Isaaih 55;1-4 Come! All you who are thirsty,come to the waters;and you who have no money
come buy and eat! Come,buy wine and milk,without money and without cost. Why spend
money on what is not bread,and your labour on what does not satisfy?
Listen,listen to me.........and your soul will delight in the richest of fare. Give ear and come
to me; hear me..that your soul may live.
Rev 18;2 With a mighty voice he shouted; Fallen,fallen is Babylon the Great! She has become
a home for demons[doctrines] and a haunt for every evil spirit,a haunt for every unclean
detestable bird.......
:cloud9:My :2c: As for Babylon.....Babylon is not exclusively the "churches", but the world system rulership in general, including the rulership of our "world", our flesh. She sits upon the heads of men, usurping the rulership of the Holy Ghost, which is why tongues of fire come upon our heads.
And so, we see a bunch of unclean birds eating the bread out of the baker's basket/nest on his head. Bread/word that is not taken down into the heart, to make clean the inside of the cup as well as the outside, is the same as the seed that fell by the way side that the birds ate. Unclean birds in the OT, are scavengers, ie. they only eat DEAD flesh/doctrines, not life producing meat/celestial flesh (of the Word).
Mark 4:3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
Contrast with the CUPbearer, who is symbolic of new wine/redeemed soul, who is raised alive.
BOTH were in prison, but only one was raised alive (resurrection Paul talked about).
Isaaih 35;8 And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean
[from now on call no man unclean]will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in the Way.
wicked fools will not go about on it. No lion will be there,nor any ferocious beast get up on it,
they will not be found there. But only the redeemed[all men bought with His blood] will walk
there, and the ransomed of the LOrd will return. They will enter Zion with singing[bringing
in the sheaves] everlasting joy will crown their heads. Gladness and joy will overtake them
and sorrow and sighing will flee away.
So, where does a person, a soul, human being... go when they die, expire, quite the breath of life? Be that a believer or non believer?
hi micah..with your view on the soul (which I've certainly thought about), how does this scripture fit with your view? how do you interpret it?
And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
thanks
Quote from: Jock on June 08, 2014, 07:05:32 PM
If God is not a trinity, therefore we are not a trinity. In what manner are we formed in the image of God?
What's translated as image can also mean "representative"
I think we can complicate it more then we should,and not see the forest for the trees........
Adam become a living soul.......the soul that is sinning will die[corrupt image that all men bear]
God destroys the corrupt image[see satan demons in lof 'harmed' of 2nd death...]..
the soul is the active nature/personality/mind/heart image that resides and lives and breathes
within the body. two natures..one in corrupt image/one in the incorruptible...we have been
instructed in the scriptures..that as all men have bore the image...of the corruptible one..so,too
shall all men bear the image of the incorruptible.
Born again from above is the seeding f this nature again in man. Adam/man originally had this
nature instilled in him[make man in our image].....when deception and temptation led into
sin...the soul 'imprint' nature of the corrupt one become active in man's being...He had lost
his soul in the image of the incorruptible one..[abomination in God's temple]
but we are double garmeted tokogae...and we have an outer and inner[man] unless a kernal
of wheat fall to the earth and die..it can not bear much fruit unto heaven....[seed has hard outer
covering that dissolves].
there is a 'secret/hidden person[ality] of the heart in man?Adam...that God called 'good"....
'only God is good'.....and God is perfecting man in His image 'incorruptible'..ye must be perfect.
ALL men shall bear the image of the incorruptible...that includes the soul.
Love the different views and sharing those thoughts
that everyone explained in some detail ..
for me the scriptures says alot about the deep sleep of Adam /the living soul God created by breathing the breath of life in Him and about bringing out the woman /Eve mother of the living that was hidden within his insides ..
But it does not say he was awake or eyes opened until they both knew sin/error by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ..
for me that was the biggest clue
and the DAY they eat they would die so the awaking to sin and death was the curse of Adam that we all die in ...
for me and this is just what I also see is this life /world is the watery grave /hell with the sea many peoles tounges and nations ...
and what seperates the believers from the non believers , those born again ?
faith , hope and love are the main factors of the new Life within us given by the gift of God though Jesus Christ they are the sparks to ignite our hearts the promise of the HOLY GHOST and fire ... becoming on fire for God as God is a comsuming fire
without faith its impossble to please God , the faith of the son of God making many sons of God born again
and hope , the Christ in you the hope of glory to the Father , this verse helps me to see it clearer But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death
this to me explines how straighted / pushed Jesus was to accomplish the baptism in Luke 12 :49 this dividing and seperating us all unto Him ,, this also explines the coming first to cleans us and make room for His work and presence , when He comes the 2nd time its without sin / error for those awaitning Him to complete the short work and finnish it
than death /mortality is swallowed up in mortality ... I believe some as Paul also witnessed to had this done in this life , though they went on to die as men ...... seeing the mortal was never meant to live forever in the first place ... for me its the devils short time to influence mortal man to sin and error by lusting after those temporary things this life offers
but is not eternal or always making it sin /error against the will of God , we have to remeber what we are that is born again sons of God that inherit those gifts of God though Christ by the HOLY SPIRIT union of the Father and Son ..... there is no other relationship to build upon that will never be broken nor destroyed , its the perfect that we all desire to be complete in each and everyone of us , it is His work and glory we seek to be complete within us all in HIS DAY AND LIGHT
Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2014, 06:18:31 AM
hi micah..with your view on the soul (which I've certainly thought about), how does this scripture fit with your view? how do you interpret it?
And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
thanks
I find myself reeling in my mind with this verse the most. Yet, imo, it is the words "kill" and "destroy" that the understanding comes clearer to me. I find Rotherham(i) 28 And be not in fear, by reason of them that are killing the body,—and, the soul, are not able to kill. But fear, rather, him who is able, both soul and body, to destroy in gehenna! and
Diaglott(i) 28 And not be afraid of those killing the body, the but life not being able to kill; be afraid but rather that being able both life and body to destroy in Gehenna.
Bring it where I understand it the best. I also take into consideration that Jesus was speaking to the disciples, Jesus was speaking using a parable. The Christian Bible uses the word "sentient" in the place of soul which I imo gives me more insight.
Say I am strapped to a post and being tortured to death, that's my body being killed; yet my faith remains held to Him, that's the sentient, soul, life; but HE can destroy the sentient, soul, my life and my body in the fire that burns out the wood, hay, stubble, trash, and when He is finished there is something useful.
He has given me to understand what I wrote, but I may not have written it for anyone else's understanding. Sorry
Even with regard to the soul (nephesh), what we consist of, it can be said to be expressive of 3 parts:
Neshemah, which literally refers to our breath.
Ruach, which literally refers to our wind.
Nephesh, which literally refers to our inhaling and exhaling, coming to rest, as in being refreshed. (You can check out Exo 31:17 for an example of this cognate being used in this way)
When God made the body from the dust of the ground, all three of these words come into play in this way...
His neshemah left his mouth, travelled as a ruach, coming to rest as nephesh in its resting place, the body. Man being a nephesh is the noun form of this rested refreshment, an expression of how man and woman were originally be live, in a state of rested refreshment, of relaxed breathing in and out. When man dies, and the body goes back to the ground from which it came, the neshemah leaves man and travels as a ruach back to God who gave it.
All three of these aspects that make us who we are are affected in specific ways:
The neshemah (breath) is affected by our thoughts. We breathe differently depending on our thoughts.
The ruach (wind) by our speech. Ruach is the agent which carries the breath containing our verbal speech.
The nephesh is affected by our actions. We are either in a state of refreshment, or not, depending on what we do.
Ronen
"But it does not say he was awake or eyes opened until they both knew sin/error by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ..
for me that was the biggest clue
and the DAY they eat they would die so the awaking to sin and death was the curse of Adam that we all die in ... " rosered
Just adding some thoughts
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
My understanding, the woman already had sinned[missed the mark] when she SAW, good for food, pleasant to the eyes, desired to get wise, THEN she ate and gave to man and THEN THEIR EYES WERE OPENED.
I do believe that the man even though he spoke the first dialogue in the Bible, was still not awake from that "deep sleep" and still at that point they were ONE flesh;
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
until Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
when your decieved aren't you blind? when you listen to your decieved soul aren't you deaf?
Don't know. Do you? :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2014, 06:03:53 PM
"But it does not say he was awake or eyes opened until they both knew sin/error by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ..
for me that was the biggest clue
and the DAY they eat they would die so the awaking to sin and death was the curse of Adam that we all die in ... " rosered
Just adding some thoughts
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
My understanding, the woman already had sinned[missed the mark] when she SAW, good for food, pleasant to the eyes, desired to get wise, THEN she ate and gave to man and THEN THEIR EYES WERE OPENED.
I do believe that the man even though he spoke the first dialogue in the Bible, was still not awake from that "deep sleep" and still at that point they were ONE flesh;
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
until Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
YES , you do understand the gist of it
Adams transgression was hidden in blame to the woman
YOU gave me from within himself !!
Gen 3:12 The man said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate."
31:33
If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:
Job 31:34 Did I fear a great multitude, or did the contempt of families terrify me, that I kept silence, and went not out of the door?
Job 31:35 Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire [is, that] the Almighty would answer me, and that mine adversary had written a book.
Job 31:36 Surely I would take it upon my shoulder, and bind it as a crown to me.
Job 31:37 I would declare unto him the number of my steps; as a prince would I go near unto him.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned
after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
1Ti 2:14 And
Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Adams sin to transgress and error was to blame God for his fear of being in Gods presence[nakedness ] and blame the woman whom never recieved the direct command Not to eat of this tree that Adam did recive from God , and you see Job was not going to do that, blame God for anything , he just wanted to understand why he was being tormented !!
for me , Eve transgressed by believing the serpent [ liar and false accusser and murderer ]
I hope this clears up what was trying to be said .. though both being of one flesh
Two scriptures that I have pondered for a very long time re: ...not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.
Gen 3:17
And unto Adam He said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shall thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
Job 2:9-10
Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh, What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
=====
A couple years ago I did a study-- whose voice do we need hearken... very interesting stuff... Abraham hearkened to the voice of his wife and Ishmael was born...Adam hearkened to the voice of his wife and the ground was cursed...
Back to the OP... :-)
Some think people who die, don't really die, but basically instantly continue living with God "on the other side".
What I'm wondering is this.
Jesus died and stayed dead for 3 days.
He went to heaven 40 days after resurrection.
If 'we' would do those things instantly, wouldn't that mean the student is doing better than the Master?
:dontknow:
Thank you Anna , great point ! good observation sis!!
I don't believe humans have inherent immortality.. otherwise we would not "put on immortality" at the resurrection/gathering to Him..
"a great cloud of witnesses" I believe refers to the great day of judgment of all things/review.. when all who have lived will witness that 'day'..
Quote from: rosered on June 10, 2014, 04:17:25 PM
Thank you Anna , great point ! good observation sis!!
Amen
"Be careful how you hear, for to the one who has more shall be given. To the one who has not, even that which he has shall be taken away."
"Let the one who has ears hear what the Spirit is saying to the called out ones."