Soul sleep

[eaglesway]

sheol(the grave)- rendered "hell" about 50 times   

Gehenna(place for burning detestable things, dump)-rendered "hell" about 10 times,     

tartarus(the pit)- rendered hell 1 time


"Hell"- without traceable roots as an actual word ever written in the Logos-

[Jock]

OK, Wait a minute! I have never before heard (on these boards) that Hell is separation from God. I don't believe in Hell and I do believe that God will draw all things (including ALL men) to Himself in reconciliation, including even Lucifer!

If that's the path we are going down, I'm afraid that we'll be parting company. Why hang with Universalists if you believe in the torment that would beset those that have no way to be with God and with Christ??

I would rather be annihilated if that were the case.

Jock.

[eaglesway]

you are misunderstanding. nobody here believes in eternal torment. SOme do believe in a period of "kolassis" (corrective punishment). Some don't.

Altho there is no hell, we may sometimes use the word because it is "common understanding" that hell is misery and people's sinfulness and rebellion towards God can definitelt make them miserable, hence- hell on earth.

Some people believe only on earth. Some believe for a time after the Great White Throne in Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire, until every knee bows, I could go on but I won't. Just look around the site concerning the topic hell or lake of fire and you will get an idea where different peeople are on that :o)

[micah7:9]

OK, Wait a minute! I have never before heard (on these boards) that Hell is separation from God. I don't believe in Hell and I do believe that God will draw all things (including ALL men) to Himself in reconciliation, including even Lucifer!

If that's the path we are going down, I'm afraid that we'll be parting company. Why hang with Universalists if you believe in the torment that would beset those that have no way to be with God and with Christ??

I would rather be annihilated if that were the case.

Jock.

:iagree:  Psa 139:7  Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8  If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.

In my opinion, man can be very miserable in the Lord's presence, but HE IS ALWAYS THERE.

[Jock]

Thanks guys, what I read earlier in the thread almost rekindled an old struggle from the past, it made me jump.

Sometimes     IMO a spirit can change the pneuma in the ears of the hearer when the speaker meant otherwise. One of the characteristics of just seeing words on a screen.


Jock

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:

[lastpost]

Also Hebrews 12 presents a conundrum too because it does not say "You will Come". It says "You have come to Mt Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem and to myriads of angels and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect

Thank you for this ew, it is well put. May I venture to make a comment about this as something was called out in me when I read it along with your other text? I do hope that this does not go too far wide of the underlying meaning...

The receivers of the Hebrews letter are told to look "unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12.2)". Their faith is not in a state of completion according to the writer. They are told that "they have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin (Heb. 12.4)".

And yet they had come to (proserchomai) Mt Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem.

proserchomai => to come to, approach, draw near to

Surely this means that they have not entered into the City but have arrived at the Gates?

"Seek first the Kingdom of God". (Matt. 6:33)

"...for lo! the Kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)

"...unless you turn about, and [be] made as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heavens". (Matt. 18:3)

I believe that one needs to enter the Kingdom of God within in order to unlock the gate to the Kingdom of God without (Kingdom of Heavens). [This is whether it is in the body or out of it].

I believe that being "made as little children" is referring to the innocence of a little child, the state of purity of a little child, and the trust of a little child (the perfect trust the child has in the attentive mother).

Until that perfect innocence, purity and trust is there, the world throws weight and sin upon the heart and mind (Heb 12:1) which so easily entangles, and so prevents entrance into the pure City. The things not of God claw their way into the soul and make it unable to enter the purity of the City.

Please note, this has nothing whatsoever to do with immaturity - it is the state of innocence. The thrust of Faith in the previous chapter (Heb. 11) is concerning a very mature Faith indeed, which allowed the Hebrews' ancestors to be tested even to death.

It is the blend of this Faith with the innocence, purity and trust of a little child which shall surely grant entrance into the wondrous Heavenly City.

Ah, a beautiful City of course - beautiful beyond the earthly mind to conceive of. But I think we have a lot to learn from the principle of God's idea of a Messiah and man's idea of a Messiah - and the difference between them.

I believe that here on earth can be found the Kingdom of God. It can be found in the tired mother working her fingers to the bone; it can be seen in the harassed father seeking to make ends meet so that his children do not go hungry; it is found in the small boy who pulls his mother's arm to show her the treasure he has found in the ground; it is the little girl who casts innocent love on the doll she is so grateful for; it is the weary old lady quietly passing out on a poor-house bed knowing that her faith in a loving God has been justified up to the hilt and praying in all humility that she has lived a life worthy of her Beloved Christ.

May I suggest about the Kingdom of God within and the wondrous and most beautiful Heavenly Kingdom without - that they are not separate, but that they are as one.

And surely, once the key is found, the Gates into revelation are thrown wide open, and Life and Hope are magnified in sacredness and holiness. And the full meaning of Christ's statement becomes apparent - even while we animate these decaying  bodies - that He who believes in Him and keeps His word shall never die.   

[micah7:9]

What happened to the soul sleep info?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The post was removed due to the demeaning attitude of the content. If you have further questions, please take it up with the mods by PM. Blessings....

[micah7:9]

I was talking about the subject of the post on soul sleep? The posts "seemed" to flip over to "hell" what are you referring to?

[eaglesway]

The brief detour into a discussion about sheol/hell is nt that far afield from the subject of death/soul sleep. The thread can continue on, or, if it becomes necessary we can split off a discussion about sheol/hell. At this point I see no problem.

[micah7:9]

The understanding that I have been given is that when a human being expires, stops breathing, physical-natural death, is dead, he/she goes to sheol[hades] the world of the dead, grave or pit. I can understand this death as sleep. This information for me is found in the Bible.
1Ki 2:10  And David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

I understand that the miss leading word "hell" is not a place of torment, it is my grave. I understand from the Bible that the human being was not given a soul nor has a soul, but is a soul, a living/breathing creature, that is what a soul is.

Gen 2:7  And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and  breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls(breather's) are mine; as the soul(breathing) of the father, so also the soul(breathing) of the son is mine: the soul(breather) that sinneth, it shall die.

Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit(wind/breath) of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What I have not found in the Bible is any such thing as "soul sleep." (Just as I have found no evidence of an "immortal soul.")
I have no problem at all about what happens when I die, my breath will return to the Giver, my body will return to the dust, I will be a dead soul, and in that state I will know not anything, and when the time comes HE will raise the dead. I have that promise.

[Jock]

Micah

My spirit rose to what you wrote and I believe it to be true. :thumbsup:

Thanks

Shalom :Peace2:

Jock

[rosered]

  only proof  needed    to belive in the resurrection and the LIFE   ... is right here
the LIGHT WAKES UP THE DEAD /SLEEPING ,[Lazurus meaning ''whom God helps '' this little light of mine[each with a  seed of Christ within ] Im gonna let it shine , let it shine  , shine, shine !!!   the Christ in you the hope of Glory  so we can all see JESUS we are connected because of Him  , being gathered into HIM,   the LIGHT OF THE WORLD !!!


1:1 A man named Lazarus was sick. He lived in Bethany with his sisters, Mary and Martha. 


Jhn 11:2 This is the Mary who later poured the expensive perfume on the Lord's feet and wiped them with her hair.  Her brother, Lazarus, was sick. 


Jhn 11:3 So the two sisters sent a message to Jesus telling him, "Lord, your dear friend is very sick." 


Jhn 11:4 But when Jesus heard about it he said, "Lazarus's sickness will not end in death. No, it happened for the glory of God so that the Son of God will receive glory from this." 

Jhn 11:5 So although Jesus loved Martha, Mary, and Lazarus, 


Jhn 11:6 he stayed where he was for the next two days. 


Jhn 11:7 Finally, he said to his disciples, "Let's go back to Judea." 


Jhn 11:8 But his disciples objected. "Rabbi," they said, "only a few days ago the people  in Judea were trying to stone you. Are you going there again?" 


Jhn 11:9 Jesus replied, "There are twelve hours of daylight every day. During the day people can walk safely. They can see because they have the light of this world. 


Jhn 11:10 But at night there is danger of stumbling because they have no light." 
Jhn 11:11 Then he said, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up." 
Jhn 11:12 The disciples said, "Lord, if he is sleeping, he will soon get better!" 


Jhn 11:13 They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died. 


Jhn 11:14 So he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead. 

Jhn 11:15 And for your sakes, I'm glad I wasn't there, for now you will really believe. Come, let's go see him." 


Jhn 11:16 Thomas, nicknamed the Twin, [fn] said to his fellow disciples, "Let's go, too—and die with Jesus." 


Jhn 11:17 When Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was told that Lazarus had already been in his grave for four days. 


Jhn 11:18 Bethany was only a few miles [fn] down the road from Jerusalem, 


Jhn 11:19 and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss. 


Jhn 11:20 When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house. 


Jhn 11:21 Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. 


Jhn 11:22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask." 


Jhn 11:23 Jesus told her, "Your brother will rise again." 


Jhn 11:24 "Yes," Martha said, "he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day." 

Jhn 11:25 Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. [fn] Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. 

Jhn 11:26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?" 

Jhn 11:27 "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God." 


Jhn 11:28 Then she returned to Mary. She called Mary aside from the mourners and told her, "The Teacher is here and wants to see you." 


Jhn 11:29 So Mary immediately went to him. 


Jhn 11:30 Jesus had stayed outside the village, at the place where Martha met him. 


Jhn 11:31 When the people who were at the house consoling Mary saw her leave so hastily, they assumed she was going to Lazarus's grave to weep. So they followed her there. 


Jhn 11:32 When Mary arrived and saw Jesus, she fell at his feet and said, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died." 


Jhn 11:33 When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, a deep anger welled up within him, [fn] and he was deeply troubled. 


Jhn 11:34 "Where have you put him?" he asked them. They told him, "Lord, come and see." 


Jhn 11:35 Then Jesus wept. 


Jhn 11:36 The people who were standing nearby said, "See how much he loved him!" 


Jhn 11:37 But some said, "This man healed a blind man. Couldn't he have kept Lazarus from dying?" 


Jhn 11:38 Jesus was still angry as he arrived at the tomb, a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance. 


Jhn 11:39 "Roll the stone aside," Jesus told them. But Martha, the dead man's sister, protested, "Lord, he has been dead for four days. The smell will be terrible." 


Jhn 11:40 Jesus responded, "Didn't I tell you that you would see God's glory if you believe?" 


Jhn 11:41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, "Father, thank you for hearing me. 


Jhn 11:42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me." 


Jhn 11:43 Then Jesus shouted, "Lazarus, come out!" 


Jhn 11:44 And the dead man came out, his hands and feet bound in graveclothes, his face wrapped in a headcloth. Jesus told them, "Unwrap him and let him go!" 


Jhn 11:45 Many of the people who were with Mary believed in Jesus when they saw this happen. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Micah......the only problem is, all of the 29 scriptures I posted on page 3, do not bear witness to your post above, particularly Paul's comment about spirit, soul and body. Paul was taught by some of the most notable Jewish scholars ever, in addition to being taught personally by the risen Christ. I think that makes him an unimpeachable witness. Blessings....

[anna274]

:cloud9: @ Micah......the only problem is, all of the scriptures I posted on page 3, do not bear witness to your post above. Blessings....

Job 33:18, 20, 22, 28, 30

"his soul"    There is no Hebrew word for "his" ....

2 Kings 4:27
soul is vexed within her:   There are no Hebrew words for "within her"

I checked "his own" which appear 238 X's and in the OT there are no Hebrew words for "his own"...

I don't understand... perhaps the translators had legitimate reasons for adding "his own" or "his"....   

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:  Probably because it's universally understood throughout scripture, that there is a soul IN the body. Reading everything that pertains to it, and replacing it with the idea that man is a soul only, as opposed to having a soul, simply doesn't work in the context of what is said, and neither would there be a need to have different Greek and Hebrew words to express soul as being different from spirit.

We were made in His image, which is why we were made both male and female in one body. He called THEIR name Adam. God is a triune God, who also mentions having a soul. We are told we are spirit, soul and body. All the heavens declare His glory, as do we, it's the same pattern. Sun/spirit, moon/soul, and stars/body. Blessings...

[anna274]

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life <5590> for his friends.

Matt 16:25-26
For whosoever will save his life <5590> shall lose it; and whosoever will lose his life <5590> for my sake shall find it.

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul<5590>? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul <5590>?

5590 psuche used 105 X's
translated soul 58 X's   life 40 X's  dead 5 X's (???)


1 Cor 15:45
living <2198> soul <5590>

There are many more scriptures to consider as we/I look for truth, especially regarding "living soul"... 

[gregoryfl]

Job 33:18, 20, 22, 28, 30

"his soul"    There is no Hebrew word for "his" ....

2 Kings 4:27
soul is vexed within her:   There are no Hebrew words for "within her"

I checked "his own" which appear 238 X's and in the OT there are no Hebrew words for "his own"...

I don't understand... perhaps the translators had legitimate reasons for adding "his own" or "his"....   

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/wu.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/shu.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/po.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/na.png)

The suffix 'waw' at the end of the word for 'soul' means 'his'...meaning 'his soul'.

The English in 2 Kings 4:27 should read 'toward her'. The word in question is (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/he.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/lu.png) containing the lamed meaning 'to' and hey meaning 'her'.

There is a word for 'within her' which is (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/he.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/bo.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/re.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/ku.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/bo.png) although it is not found in the scripture you mentioned.

The nephesh of a living creature, whether man or animal, speaks literally of something that breathes. Because one's breath enters and exits the body, it is also said to be possessed by us, something that is in us, and leaves us upon death...hence the idiom, 'he breathed his last.' 

The action word related to this is (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/he.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/mo.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/shu.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/na.png) which means 'breath'. This is not merely the oxygen that goes in and out of us, but also on a deeper level contains our emotions and expressions...such as is exibited when we are angry, or happy, sad, etc, and how we breathe, as well as every word we say, sent on a breath of air. This is why it is written that breath can teach:

'The breath of the Mighty One does cause them to understand.' Job 32:8.

It is this attachment of our emotional makeup with breath (neshemah), as breathers (nephesh), that gives the reason for such phrases as the soul being troubled within us, and so on.

Hope this helps,

Ronen

[anna274]

Thanks Ronen for so quickly sharing a very helpful--grammatical as well as scriptural--post.  I will print it and study it more carefully. Again, thank you so much. 

[micah7:9]

  only proof  needed    to belive in the resurrection and the LIFE   ... is right here
the LIGHT WAKES UP THE DEAD /SLEEPING ,[Lazurus meaning "whom God helps " this little light of mine[each with a  seed of Christ within ] Im gonna let it shine , let it shine  , shine, shine !!!   the Christ in you the hope of Glory  so we can all see JESUS we are connected because of Him  , being gathered into HIM,   the LIGHT OF THE WORLD !!!


1:1 A man named Lazarus was sick. He lived in Bethany with his sisters, Mary and Martha. 


Jhn 11:2 This is the Mary who later poured the expensive perfume on the Lord's feet and wiped them with her hair.  Her brother, Lazarus, was sick. 


Jhn 11:3 So the two sisters sent a message to Jesus telling him, "Lord, your dear friend is very sick." 


Jhn 11:4 But when Jesus heard about it he said, "Lazarus's sickness will not end in death. No, it happened for the glory of God so that the Son of God will receive glory from this." 

Jhn 11:5 So although Jesus loved Martha, Mary, and Lazarus, 


Jhn 11:6 he stayed where he was for the next two days. 


Jhn 11:7 Finally, he said to his disciples, "Let's go back to Judea." 


Jhn 11:8 But his disciples objected. "Rabbi," they said, "only a few days ago the people  in Judea were trying to stone you. Are you going there again?" 


Jhn 11:9 Jesus replied, "There are twelve hours of daylight every day. During the day people can walk safely. They can see because they have the light of this world. 


Jhn 11:10 But at night there is danger of stumbling because they have no light." 
Jhn 11:11 Then he said, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up." 
Jhn 11:12 The disciples said, "Lord, if he is sleeping, he will soon get better!" 


Jhn 11:13 They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died. 


Jhn 11:14 So he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead. 

Jhn 11:15 And for your sakes, I'm glad I wasn't there, for now you will really believe. Come, let's go see him." 


Jhn 11:16 Thomas, nicknamed the Twin, [fn] said to his fellow disciples, "Let's go, too—and die with Jesus." 


Jhn 11:17 When Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was told that Lazarus had already been in his grave for four days. 


Jhn 11:18 Bethany was only a few miles [fn] down the road from Jerusalem, 


Jhn 11:19 and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss. 


Jhn 11:20 When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house. 


Jhn 11:21 Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. 


Jhn 11:22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask." 


Jhn 11:23 Jesus told her, "Your brother will rise again." 


Jhn 11:24 "Yes," Martha said, "he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day." 

Jhn 11:25 Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. [fn] Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. 

Jhn 11:26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?" 

Jhn 11:27 "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God." 


Jhn 11:28 Then she returned to Mary. She called Mary aside from the mourners and told her, "The Teacher is here and wants to see you." 


Jhn 11:29 So Mary immediately went to him. 


Jhn 11:30 Jesus had stayed outside the village, at the place where Martha met him. 


Jhn 11:31 When the people who were at the house consoling Mary saw her leave so hastily, they assumed she was going to Lazarus's grave to weep. So they followed her there. 


Jhn 11:32 When Mary arrived and saw Jesus, she fell at his feet and said, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died." 


Jhn 11:33 When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, a deep anger welled up within him, [fn] and he was deeply troubled. 


Jhn 11:34 "Where have you put him?" he asked them. They told him, "Lord, come and see." 


Jhn 11:35 Then Jesus wept. 


Jhn 11:36 The people who were standing nearby said, "See how much he loved him!" 


Jhn 11:37 But some said, "This man healed a blind man. Couldn't he have kept Lazarus from dying?" 


Jhn 11:38 Jesus was still angry as he arrived at the tomb, a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance. 


Jhn 11:39 "Roll the stone aside," Jesus told them. But Martha, the dead man's sister, protested, "Lord, he has been dead for four days. The smell will be terrible." 


Jhn 11:40 Jesus responded, "Didn't I tell you that you would see God's glory if you believe?" 


Jhn 11:41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, "Father, thank you for hearing me. 


Jhn 11:42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me." 


Jhn 11:43 Then Jesus shouted, "Lazarus, come out!" 


Jhn 11:44 And the dead man came out, his hands and feet bound in graveclothes, his face wrapped in a headcloth. Jesus told them, "Unwrap him and let him go!" 


Jhn 11:45 Many of the people who were with Mary believed in Jesus when they saw this happen.

Did not Lazarus die later? If not what happened to him?

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: @ Micah......the only problem is, all of the 29 scriptures I posted on page 3, do not bear witness to your post above, particularly Paul's comment about spirit, soul and body. Paul was taught by some of the most notable Jewish scholars ever, in addition to being taught personally by the risen Christ. I think that makes him an unimpeachable witness. Blessings....

Just asking, is there another verse in the Word that is a second witness to "body, soul, and spirit" that Paul wrote?

[gregoryfl]

There may be some sense in which the various terms describing a person may reflect them as seen from various points of emphasis. For example,

1. in relation to God's giving of life (spirit),
2. in relation to his existence as a human being (soul),
3. in relation to his existence in a physical world (body).

This same conception can also be seen in Yeshua's words:

and you shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.  (Deu 6:5)

Also consider this: When one speaks of the bone as a body part, what is included in that bone automatically is the marrow inside it. The entirety is referred to as a bone, although the marrow is, like the spirit, that which gives life to the bone, which may be likened to the soul. The bone is physically made up of collagen, which may be likened to the body.

Ronen

[micah7:9]

There may be some sense in which the various terms describing a person may reflect them as seen from various points of emphasis. For example,

1. in relation to God's giving of life (spirit),
2. in relation to his existence as a human being (soul),
3. in relation to his existence in a physical world (body).

This same conception can also be seen in Yeshua's words:

and you shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.  (Deu 6:5)

Also consider this: When one speaks of the bone as a body part, what is included in that bone automatically is the marrow inside it. The entirety is referred to as a bone, although the marrow is, like the spirit, that which gives life to the bone, which may be likened to the soul. The bone is physically made up of collagen, which may be likened to the body.

Ronen

2. in relation to his existence as a human being (soul),
Yes I agree and and with the bone and the marrow I understand..bone body..marrow spirit and with these TWO components I see what makes the SENTIENT being, person, a soul.

I can understand knowing this Heb_4:12  For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Piercing and dividing the sentient(our 5 senses the urges within us, our self, ego) from the  spirit/breath that is ignited by grace, and imo that ignition begins at the dragging/drawing.
Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, thank you Ronen.  :girlheart:

@ Micah.....looks like you already answered your question about another scripture. Blessings....