The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c: We don't JUST have a spirit and a body, we have a SOUL, which is feminine in nature. The spirit returns to the one that sent it, but the soul stays trapped in whatever it did not overcome while still in the body. Samuel was a prophet, and they were anointed by God with the Spirit to fulfill that function. He was brought up, because the soul of him was still trapped, unto another day when Christ would arise.

The only way he was raised up is because God allowed it to happen, gave Saul what he thought he wanted and used it to judge him with it AGAIN, just like he did when He gave the Israelites meat/quail to eat. Be careful what you pray for you just might get it!

Think about what death IS; the spirit leaves the body AND the soul behind. So what happens to the soul? If "she" is not fully redeemed (work out your own salvation with fear and trembling), a "divorce" happens at the death of the body when the spirit leaves.

God puts them together here for the purpose of working out our salvation, and finding our way back the garden we fell from, thru Christ. This is why it says what GOD has put together let no man put assunder.

And why Jesus told the Pharisees who asked Him about divorce, He said, "For the hardness of your hearts, Moses (the letter/literal mindset) allowed a bill of divorcement. When you run those word meanings down you find out hardness of your hearts means, "dull of hearing".

So let me rephrase that scripture now. Because "you" are hard of hearing/deaf (the Spirit speaking), the Letter, will allow your spirit to be separated from your soul (divorce) = DIE.

This is why it is said, the DEAF shall hear.....we must seek to hear in this day because it is the dawning of the 7th day (Sabbath John 5) when all those that hear the VOICE of the Son of God, shall live. Hereafter we'll not know Him (or hear Him) after the flesh but after the Spirit. Blessings...

[micah7:9]

Php 2:12  So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13  for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

[Nathan]

Card, your last post seems to carry the most understanding in it so far for me.  As far as I know   . . . there's not been a whole lot of clarity as to what really happens to the soul when the body dies.  It's hard to even clarify exactly what my soul "is".  Soulishness is carnal and the mind is one of the major components of the soul, and as we come to the cross, our minds are renewed through the experience of submitting our minds to the finished works of the cross. . . .just talking out loud here . . .

But without the conscious decision to accept Christ into my heart, my soul then pays the consequences of remaining bound after I die?  Doesn't that bring us back to square one all over again?  For to be bound after death now is to then say the power of the cross is only strong enough to free me when my mind gives the permission for it to do so.

Would this not lead back to preaching fear again due to the fact if you don't ask Jesus into your heart, your soul will be trapped after you die?  Jesus "says" there's aboundant life, but only to those who's minds have accepted the idea that Jesus paid for my ransom. 

So I'm still uncertain that the spirit and soul don't continue to remain connected.  Death separates a husband and wife in the natural.  In the natural, the wife leaves her old nature/name behind and takes on the husbands name.  The mind, once married to my spirit, is to drop it's old identity and take on the spirit nature. 

When death occurs, my body is laid to rest.  My soul is no longer manfesting through it yet are you saying its' then "trapped" in my corpse?  What happens to those people who are cremated?  Does that release the soul from being trapped?  If it's trapped, what exactly is it trapped to?  Still a pretty gray area for me.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:. This is going to be long, there's no short way to explain it, so bear with me. For what it's worth (and no one has to believe me), I was taken into that realm of someone's bondage IN THE SPIRIT BY HIM, as He, I, and 4 friends, COOPERATIVELY (ie. using the speaking gifts) set that person's soul free. This was not a "universal hell" as has been wrongly taught.

We are a triune being of spirit, soul, and body; and as you know, the tabernacle had 3 compartments. The spirit is what is saved first of the 3 parts of man. So we start with all 3 parts in the realm of the outer court. That's the same as Adam/spirit and Eve/soul standing in the wilderness after the fall, and this is the place of OUTER darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So Adam/spirit comes back into the light of the Spirit first, and is as the priests of the inner court realm that went in to minister in the presence of the Candlestick for the others in the (outer court), which obviously was for HIS WIFE (soul) and the souls that could not come past the outer court by reason of them not being of the priesthood (redeemed spirit/Adam).

On a spiritual understanding level; BECAUSE this swallowing up of Adam/spirit is a type of "death", exchanging our life for His at that level, the Eve/soul becomes as a "widow", and this enables HIS BROTHER to raise up seed to him, which is why it says the WOMAN is SAVED in childbirth, ie. impregnated by Holy seed, birthing the Son.

See, our understanding was that the Son is ONLY male, and that has hindered us from seeing the truth. But in Adam, He made them both male/spirit and female/soul IN ONE, and so too in the original pattern, Christ, there is neither male nor female; but not because there is either/or, but because there is BOTH.

I could go a lot deeper on this part right now, but let me leave it here for the sake of this thread.

(And yes, Micah, it IS OF His good pleasure, because the Levites were chosen by Him to the priesthood, just as Adam was a priest in the garden.)

SO; this is why it says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. That word salvation there also means deliverance, ie. deliverance from the things that have the soul bound.

Now for the pattern timeline; we have ALL been in that dark night of the soul for the two days of Pentecost that the inner court represents in the timeline afforded us by the Tabernacle, by Jesus's own words to Herod, ie. today (1000) and tomorrow (1000) I will do cures and cast out devils.....= deliverance of the soul.

So, then as to why this occurs. At the death of the body, if the parts of the soul (mind, will, emotions, and desires) have not all been consumed in Him and "realigned" with His, it stays trapped in it's own stony heart (which appears cave-like; see Dr. Eby's book) with what it did not overcome thru the Spirit while still in the body.

This is why NDE's that say they went to what they perceived as "hell" also say they DESCENDED, ie. "whose god is their belly" (belly means innermost being). The spirit ASCENDS back to the One who gave it. This is why the rivers of living water are to come out of our innermost being, our bellies.
 
This separation of soul and spirit instead of being one in Him, is a false "balance", which God says He hates, because the WEIGHT of sin that so easily besets us, has weighed down the soul. They are meant to both be redeemed in Him and brought into union IN Him, with Him being in the midst, just as He was in the midst of Moses and Elijah, and just as He was in the midst of the 2 cherubim in the cloud of glory, over the Ark of the Covenant in type.

This pattern of separation was shown when the fiery furnace walked between the 2 PIECES (the "beginning" and the "end") of the animal, and when Jesus walked in the firmament (heaven) which is in the MIDST of the waters, by walking ABOVE the waters below the firmament, when He walked on the water.

This is born witness by, there is one mediator ("middle man") between God and man, ie. the pieces, unredeemed spirit and soul separated from God in the outer court, but there ever lives an Intercessor between them. Not coincidentally, WE are called to be intercessors, and there is an unimaginable depth to that statement.
Whatsover sins YE remit, they are remitted, whatsoever sins YE retain, they are retained.

Death of the body does not change this fact, because He is perceiving from the realm of Spirit, and so they/we were already "dead" by His definition, IF we are still in that outer court experience realm. Which is why Jesus said, let the DEAD, bury the dead.

He took Eve/soul out of Adam to show him what was in his stony (ribs/calcium, covering for the heart) heart. He took the Israelites out into the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts.

We were created in *their* image, male/spirit and female/soul, created He THEM. The soul is like a womb, it reproduces whatever seed you plant in it. These seeds/tares were planted by the enemy of our souls, while we slept. Adam was asleep, but God never woke him up until Christ.

This is why Christ in you, is the hope of glory/entering into the Holy of Holies in type. As I said, Christ is shown in the middle of the pattern as the Candlestick in the midst of the inner court.

But the good news is that just as the tabernacle shows the separation between spirit and soul, and between spirit and soul and HIM, David's tabernacle shows the end result of union of outer court and Holy of Holies, ie. there was no inner court, both were swallowed up of life/Holy of Holies.

AND: God did not create their "hell", they did. By our OWN WICKEDNESS we are reproved, we eat (to consume/be one with the BELLY) of the fruit of our own lips. It is NOT permanent, as the patterns above show, and as the Jews knew who believed in a type of purgatory such as this, and to this day pray for one year for the deceased. Blessings....
 

[Beloved Servant]

"Not coincidentally, WE are called to be intercessors, and there is an unimaginable depth to that statement."

Card, it almost scares me sometimes.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: He DOES like to pull up our tent stakes and make us move on to follow Him WHERESOEVER the Lamb goest, doesn't He, LOL? Blessings...

[thinktank]

Interesting - Could Samuel's spirit that the witch summoned be brought up, from Samuels soul. This kind of thing has happened to Gods people, there was a man who appeared in the third heaven in filthy rags, could this be where the body/soul is upon the Earth but the through spirit the man is transfered to heaven. I cannot remember who it was, Joshua perhaps.

So even though Samuel was experiencing soul sleep, the witch disturbed him and brought him up.
Without the body the spirit might be so bored that sleeping is the only thing do do, especially for a carnal minded person, who cares for the things of this world, but believers through Christ, the spirit can now be set free to go to heaven and at least have a job of worshipping God, until the resurection of their body to become souls, so that they can drink and party in style with Jesus in the marriage supper.

[Nathan]

I'm not there yet Card, I'm not denying your experience at all.  Some of it makes sense, some of it is very rich and deep.  It may be coming, but I'm not fully there with it yet.  I do enjoy the sound that comes from you though.

[thinktank]

I'm not there yet Card, I'm not denying your experience at all.  Some of it makes sense, some of it is very rich and deep.  It may be coming, but I'm not fully there with it yet.  I do enjoy the sound that comes from you though.

Don't worry Nathan your not the only one, even a genius! like me is finding this one a large one to eat :happygrin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, Nate, what I do (and it happens all the time) is when I hear the sound but can't discern the form making it, I keep pressing Him on it, until eventually He lets me see the form = made in His image and likeness. Blessings...

[Zero7]

So, then as to why this occurs. At the death of the body, if the parts of the soul (mind, will, emotions, and desires) have not all been consumed in Him and "realigned" with His, it stays trapped in it's own stony heart (which appears cave-like; see Dr. Eby's book) with what it did not overcome thru the Spirit while still in the body.

This did NOT make my day. I have a ton of desires that need realigning. Does this mean when it's my turn to go , I have a cave to look forward to? I'm not joking either.

[thinktank]

Pray to God that he will give you time to confess your sins before its your time and God guarantees, that he will cleanse you of all sin and unrighteousness, I think we have established here the fallacy of eternal torture, but the nature of the afterlife and lake of fire, is not as understood, so the best way to avoid any trouble is to confess Jesus as lord and saviour and believe that
'he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out'

And Jesus said that not me, lol, I don't think my Sherman tank has enough firepower to blast out your sins, you'll need more fire power, son, go to the one who calls himself the lion of the tribe of judah, I hear he's got bite and fire that melts even this tanks armour, he even carries a sword, that rivalls any samurai, it cuts between the bone and marrow, but don't worry if you kiss the son he won't be angry and tell him Think tank sent ya, so that I can get a piece of the comission.

[micah7:9]

It is true that we all speak of "soul" as if there is a separate enitiy inside of our body that is called "the soul." Not true.

Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.

Take a blue piece of transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow, on the other side, and GREEN in the middle.

The blue is the body,the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL. Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit.

Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul
disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST.
They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but
there are distinctions between soul and spirit. (L.Ray Smith) 

[thinktank]

I agree, I learnt that from scripture. If I didn't learn from the bible I would be like most people who think the soul is the ghost part of the person who lives inside the body. In films and in video games, souls are sometimes sucked up by evil or by weapons that good characters use to destroy demons. I know demons don't have souls because they don't have bodies. The bible mentions that even animals has a soul. So what is the difference between a man and a animal?

Surely there must be something extra in man that animals don't have, for the man can think.
If man is the same as animal, then it must mean that God has designed animals with limitations that they cannot break, for animals have not developed at all, but people have learnt great information.

I am into metaphysics and according to science, the man thinks which triggers formless substance to be created, so e.g if a man thinks on a woman long enough, he will develop the necessary material changes in order to like that woman, without this material change in the body, then the woman will simply be as any other woman. So if one thinks of high quality thoughts of health, then formless substance will create changes in the body that correlate with health, this process is a long process though. So if a man thinks of evil things, it will create the material neccesary for conduit, this in the bible is known as a 'stronghold' which must be eliminated and brought down by praying and thinking good things. Sometimes an unclean spirit will attach onto this stronghold and maintain it, so when Christs soldiers come to destroy it, the unclean spirit will rebuild the stronghold, so the unclean spirit must be cast out and the stronghold cast down.

[micah7:9]

I beleive you have come closer to enlightening me than many. If I understand  you, I would have to say that "thinking" is what most have taken the occasion to call "soul." I cant get past the Word in Gen. 2:7 that man became a living soul or creature. And as you say animals are living creatures so they are souls; not that they "have a soul."
Yes we as humans think, and the way I understand it, should you think long enough on a thought, that in turn gives fuel for your desire, this is called imagination. Now imagination is something animals, living creatures(souls) do not have, they have instinct.
Ezk. 18:4 and 20 read "....the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Rom 3:23  for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God

So the soul(the individual) dies.

Jas 1:14  and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,
Jas 1:15  afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.

[Cardinal]

So, then as to why this occurs. At the death of the body, if the parts of the soul (mind, will, emotions, and desires) have not all been consumed in Him and "realigned" with His, it stays trapped in it's own stony heart (which appears cave-like; see Dr. Eby's book) with what it did not overcome thru the Spirit while still in the body.

This did NOT make my day. I have a ton of desires that need realigning. Does this mean when it's my turn to go , I have a cave to look forward to? I'm not joking either.

:cloud9: I know the feeling Zero.....to say it was a shock to me was an understatement. We must die to self; the premise of UR is that He saves us either here or later. What hasn't been clear is applying that to the parts of man "fractionally". I also think this is ONE reason why He told the disciples I have much to tell you but you can't bear it right now.

The good news is that He does not leave us in that state, but this is why saviours arise (compare with sons of God of Romans 8) on Mt. Zion, to set creation (the soul is the woman/lesser glory that was created) free. Blessings....

[Cardinal]

It is true that we all speak of "soul" as if there is a separate enitiy inside of our body that is called "the soul." Not true.

Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.

Take a blue piece of transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow, on the other side, and GREEN in the middle.

The blue is the body,the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL. Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit.

Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul
disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST.
They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but
there are distinctions between soul and spirit. 

:cloud9: My  :2c: BECAME a LIVING soul = a soul that has the LIFE of the Spirit. He called THEIR name Adam. 

David said, thou will not suffer my SOUL to STAY in *hell*. He wasn't just talking of the Messiah to come there as in a prophetic utterance concerning the Messiah who would go into the HEART OF THE EARTH (belly/innermost being/heart of Adam) and raise up the SOULS of them that had died. It wasn't their spirits down there, for they return to the One that gave them.

Spirit and soul in both original languages, is not the same thing. Blessings....

[micah7:9]

Gen 2:7

(ASV)  And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(KJV)  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


(YLT)  And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

The human being..man...adam...the whale...deer...bird...living thing is living soul.

[thinktank]

Maybe we need to take a look at the original language.

If animals and people are both called souls, then it must mean that God has placed limitations on what an animal can think.

For monkeys can do some impressive stuff

[Nathan]

You guys have unveiled some extremely powerful things in your recent posts.  I love the overlapping metaphor . . .God made man a red celaphane, he breathed his golden (yellow) spirit into man, when the two overlapped, it made man a living soul.  (green)  When the man dies, the red is separated from the golden and the green is no longer visible. 

Question . . .does my spirit have my unique traits at all?  Or is that only something that manifests when my spirit is operating in this body?  This is really a great thinker . . .  Perhaps that's why being given glorified bodies is so important . . .it's so my soul can manifest without the curse of carnality being in effect.

As far as animals being souls and man being a living soul . . .does Scripture not say man at best is still a beast?  Was not every animal created out of the same original mold as Adam was?  Eve  is the only being that was not created out of the earth.  Yet when she was created, she was "in" Adam.  And "they" were man.

The soul (Eve) was within man, but there was no reproductive thought . .it was not good for man to be alone . . .so he took the womb out of man and presented it to man . . .God took what was within, separated it and presented back to man, where man became one with it and began reproducing after his own kind.  My spirit plants life seeds of thought into my mind, she then gives birth to understanding of what the nature of those life seeds are, which reproduces after their own kind.  Thought produces thought.

Cardinal shares out a thought, that thought penetraits WW's mind and produces an extension of the first thought which expands on the original and multiplies into many truths . . .we're doing the same thing in this conversation.  Kinda gives me the willies . . .

So . . .back to Abraham . . .his so was no longer visible, so it wasn't his soul that came back.  For me, I'm still staying with, it was his spirit. 

[micah7:9]

.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hey Nate....do you mean Samuel, and soul, up in that last post??? :dontknow:

[jabcat]

By saying "so", he was just talking hip.  By saying Abraham, I'm not sure what he was talking about.  :bigGrin:

[Nathan]

Yeah . . sheesh . .where'd I come up with Abraham???

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: LOL....it's TGIF???  :dontknow: