The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Molly]

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

--Heb 12

[thinktank]

I'm still not convinced of the possibility there.  Granted, I'm not one who hangs on to literal implications so when it describes "angel" bringing the message, I'm not one who envisions a being with wings and harps floating around but rather it's an avenue through which spiritual messages flow.  There are strong angels, mighty angels, named angels and unnamed angels, but at the same time, there's no indication where dead people become messengers to other men in this form as we see in Revelation. And there's really no indication by what's written that Daniel is the one delivering the message to John.

Even when Peter, James and John saw Jesus transform into his glorified state, they "saw" Moses and Elijah . . .but how would they know it was Moses or Elijah?  Did they have a polaroid in their pocket?  No, I beleive of course that it was spiritually revealed to them who they were.  Not because they became angels, but because of what they symbolized. 

Perhaps it was revealed to them spiritually the same way in which Jesus was revelaled to the disciples, when he said 'follow me and Ill make you become fishers of men'

or the alternative is that Jesus told them beforehand, (not every conversation was recorded in the gospel)

The fact that it is Moses and Elijah, is significant because

1. Elijah did not see death
2. The sepulcher of Moses is not found till this day

I personally think it is a possibility that Jesus raised Moses from the dead almost like practice before attempting to raise Lazarus and the little girl and probably hundreds of other cases not recorded in the bible.

Some people say it is a vision, but the mount of transfiguration is very similar to the experience that Paul had, go ahead, compare the two and see what I'm saying.

Also the angel that spoke to John may not be Daniel, but it is very likely a resurected saint. John of Patmos was in the spirit on the Lord's day. The lords day is noted throughout the bible and it is a specific event where God's judgments will fall upon mankind, so John was transported to the future, where the saints are already in heaven :thumbsup:

[reFORMer]

For me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.

So are you thinking that when Paul says we shall all be changed, he's only referring to the saints, the overcomers?  Because that happens in the blink of an eye.

The only Bible phrase offered to support the idea of a simultaneous corporate transition is "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," which certainly says nothing about "everybody all at once."  Even if  "in a moment" was legitimate, it may be understood to be for each individual "one at a time," while it may take a generation (40 years) for it to happen to all those for whom it will happen.  Consider, "...who shall declare his generation?" (AV) "...of his generation who doth meditate..." (YLT) "And on His personal fate, who is meditating?" (CLV -- loc.cit., Is 53:8)  However, there's no reason we should see anything about a measurement of time in the word for "in a moment" here.  Actually it is "in atomos" which meant in classical Greek what we mean when we refer to elements in chemistry, as in the periodic table of of "elements."   Anotherwords, in the very elements of your physical body, it's atomic structures, there will be a change from the presence of God "possessing" (Greek:  harpazo) you at the most fundamental level, even the material of your body.  Just as the Holy Spirit in your body with you in union with your spirit, possessing your spirit quickens it into newness of life, so He will in union with you physically sieze your body and cause it to be raised into immortality.

The word may also refer to continuation, just the next step in your walk with God, and not something that can be divided off into a separate event.  In Greek "atomos" is a negative of "cutting" or "dividing;" It means something "that cannot be cut in two, or divided, indivisible," ie., "un-cut."  This is the only place in the N.T. that this word occurs though a positive form, "tomoteros" occurs in Hebrews 4:12 referring to the word of God being "sharper" meaning "'cutting keener' than any two-mouthed sword," "...and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit..."  This change is a peaceable transition from a dying body of humiliation to a deathless body of glory, liberated from the Adamic form.

"In the twinkling of an eye" means to cast your view to something else.  It is not an indication of a length of time.  We are changed "from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord" as we behold Him.  The presence of the Lord occurs by our being brought into beholding Him in increasing glory.  You tend to believe what you see.  "The Glory" is His manifest presence. If understood as IN the "blink" of an eye, you'll be seeing the world with a natural eye, then blink your eye and be perceiving God Whose presence descends into our naural seeing, completing it, and raises us up into deathless eyes seeing God as He is in the cosmic dimension.  In that it is "eye" singular suggests "the eye of understanding."  As we look upon Him, apprehending His presence in our heart, He shall intensify this as we approach the fulfillment of the beautific vision.

It is "IN atomos [IN the very elements of physical reality, IN peaceful transition, without disruption], IN looking [upon Him and by Him into another higher realm] and IN the last trumpet."  IN, IN, IN...

IN the last trumpet is something to be searched out in Scripture, "The Feast of Trumpets," of which there are seven silver trumpets.  These are a prepared vessel of "redemption," that is, "liberation." As in the parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish Virgins, 3 classes of persons are described, the 10 virgin witnesses, the bridegroom and the one "crying" and raising a "clamor," the trumpets are those making the noise that rouses the sleeping body of believers,  sounding the alarm that awakens.  "Now in the middle of the night a clamor occurs: 'Lo! the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!"  There are some who are awake and beholding their Lord.  The messengers will blow forth that breath of God, resenating in set shapes, those forms the Maker prepared through the purifying fire, sounding certains sounds that cause irreversible changes among the children of men.  This is what His coming to be present is IN.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :goodpost: :2thumbs:

[reFORMer]

WW, I think you are confusing two different places as if they are one and the same.

That's possible. But it's also possible I'm not confusing them. Even if things are not the the same it doesn't mean they can't be about the same. There are several Babylons in the Bible. Pure luck? Hidden meaning? For me being able a to prove a certain verse/chapter is about a literal historical event doesn't always prove that same event is also about a spiritual/future event.
What if all the Babylon verses are a huge parable?

I only know of one Babylon in Revelation, a city.

Still, the city is destroyed prior to Christ setting up His millennial kingdom. The lake of fire is not created at that point in time so it can't be about people being tormented in the LoF.

Babylon, the "literal" city will never be rebuilt.  It is under about 2 feet of water and, though it would seem one of the foremost places possible for archeological excavations, no one even goes there except certain areas where fishermen dry their nets.  This is what the prophets of God have prophesied.

And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD. (Ez 26¹⁴, AV)

Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell [there], and the owls shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation. [40] As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. (Jr 50^39-40 AV)

[Tony N]

reFORMer, that's interesting.
Go here for pictures of Babylon today:
http://www.google.com/images?rlz=1T4GGLJ_en&q=babylon+today&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=_6obTI3YOMSclge1gpX2CQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDAQsAQwAw

The walls of the city of Babylon were being rebuilt by Saddam Hussein before we took over Iraq.

"for ever" in the verses you quote must not be "eternal" but for an obscure time or for the olam/eon.

[Tony N]

:cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....

Dear Cardinal, Daniel has been dead for thousands of years now. He is not alive in some other form.
The "cloud of witnesses" you speak of are the witnesses to the faith who died earlier. They were not alive in some other form when the writer of Hebrews wrote that.

The Bible says The dead know nothing.

And this is just one more reason those in the second death cannot learn or be purified because they are in death, unconscious death. They know nothing while in that death.

Not to purposely argue, but Tony, I'm not seeing death in that light either.  I understand you're basing your doctrine on an Old Testament passage and perhaps that may have been it's intention even then, but I'm not so sure of that either really. 

Oh, come on, I love to argue!  :laughing7:
Death has never changed from the OT to the NT. There is no devising or knowledge in the grave where you are going. The Bible says so. We still have to wait for the resurrection of our bodies. Nothing has changed.

Samuel was brought back to life in spirit to Saul through a soothsayer . . .if there is no knowledge in death, then how is it that Samuel could prophecy the demise of Saul?  It's not fitting for me at all.  And Paul states that he's either here in body, or when this body gives out, he'll be with Christ in spirit . .there's no indication there either of a life in dormancy . . .nor does that really follow the principles of the nature of God.

No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind.

Paul was alluding to the resurrection because that is the only time we will meet the Lord as a complet group where the dead in Christ will rise out of their graves first then we who are living to the presence of the Lord will be changed and together meet the Lord in the air.

There's no pattern established for that line of thought to be supported.  I'm not sure I understand your rendition of that cloud of witnesses Hebrews 12:1 speaks of . . .but for me, it is indeed the saints who've gone on before us.  It's their spirits that once inhabited bodies of flesh.  And if they are surrounding us, encouraging us to press on . .that doesn't sound like a state of nothingness to me either.

No saints have gone on before us. John said only Christ has ascended and Peter said David did not ascend. The Jewish saints don't go to heaven anyway. They remain on the earth after being resurrected and go into the kingdom to be established on the earth. The saints of the nations assemble as one complete group to the Lord in the air when He returns.

[Nathan]

Tony stated . . .
No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind

Oh Tony . . .the only way I would say something like this was if I was trying to maintian my own doctrine . . but I'm sorry, that's not at all what Scripture stated.  Not at all.  There is absolutely no indication that it was a familiar spirit.  Even Scripture stated "Samuel said" .. . no.  It's not going to fly at all.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
      The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
      "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
      Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.  15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"     "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."  16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?

If it was only in her mind, how could Saul have a direct conversation?  Why would Scripture state "And Samuel said . . ."

No familiar spirit.  The woman used unauthorized means to bring him up.  Not much different than many churches using unauthorized means to cast out demons, heal the sick . .so on and so forth . . .

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?' 23Then I will tell them publicly, 'I've never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.'

[Nathan]

:cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....

Dear Cardinal, Daniel has been dead for thousands of years now. He is not alive in some other form.
The "cloud of witnesses" you speak of are the witnesses to the faith who died earlier. They were not alive in some other form when the writer of Hebrews wrote that.

The Bible says The dead know nothing.

And this is just one more reason those in the second death cannot learn or be purified because they are in death, unconscious death. They know nothing while in that death.

Not to purposely argue, but Tony, I'm not seeing death in that light either.  I understand you're basing your doctrine on an Old Testament passage and perhaps that may have been it's intention even then, but I'm not so sure of that either really. 

Oh, come on, I love to argue!  :laughing7:
Death has never changed from the OT to the NT. There is no devising or knowledge in the grave where you are going. The Bible says so. We still have to wait for the resurrection of our bodies. Nothing has changed.

Samuel was brought back to life in spirit to Saul through a soothsayer . . .if there is no knowledge in death, then how is it that Samuel could prophecy the demise of Saul?  It's not fitting for me at all.  And Paul states that he's either here in body, or when this body gives out, he'll be with Christ in spirit . .there's no indication there either of a life in dormancy . . .nor does that really follow the principles of the nature of God.

No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind.

Paul was alluding to the resurrection because that is the only time we will meet the Lord as a complet group where the dead in Christ will rise out of their graves first then we who are living to the presence of the Lord will be changed and together meet the Lord in the air.

There's no pattern established for that line of thought to be supported.  I'm not sure I understand your rendition of that cloud of witnesses Hebrews 12:1 speaks of . . .but for me, it is indeed the saints who've gone on before us.  It's their spirits that once inhabited bodies of flesh.  And if they are surrounding us, encouraging us to press on . .that doesn't sound like a state of nothingness to me either.

No saints have gone on before us. John said only Christ has ascended and Peter said David did not ascend. The Jewish saints don't go to heaven anyway. They remain on the earth after being resurrected and go into the kingdom to be established on the earth. The saints of the nations assemble as one complete group to the Lord in the air when He returns.

:omg:

[thinktank]

No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind.

Paul was alluding to the resurrection because that is the only time we will meet the Lord as a complet group where the dead in Christ will rise out of their graves first then we who are living to the presence of the Lord will be changed and together meet the Lord in the air.
Tony

Hey I found something we agree on Tony, even both, also I also believe the Jewish old testmant saints will remain on the Earth to build Gods kingdom.

I think Paul says that we have obtained a better resurection than them.

Nathan I read somewhere on this forum, someone who gave evidence as to why Samuel was in contact with a familiar spirit, and not Saul.

[Nathan]

Love to hear the explanation of that one due to the fact that Scripture doesn't even hint that it was a familiar spirit.  It refers to the spirit as Samuel . . .so are we denying the Word to keep our theology intact here? 

I don't mean to come off aggressive, I guess I'm kinda surprised that I'm the one pointing to Scripture for what's been written toward something that appears to be someone's imagination.  Usually, the accusation is reversed. :grin:

[Tony N]

Tony stated . . .
No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind

Oh Tony . . .the only way I would say something like this was if I was trying to maintian my own doctrine . . but I'm sorry, that's not at all what Scripture stated.  Not at all.  There is absolutely no indication that it was a familiar spirit.  Even Scripture stated "Samuel said" .. . no.  It's not going to fly at all.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
      The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
      "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
      Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.  15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"     "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."  16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?

If it was only in her mind, how could Saul have a direct conversation?  Why would Scripture state "And Samuel said . . ."

No familiar spirit.  The woman used unauthorized means to bring him up.  Not much different than many churches using unauthorized means to cast out demons, heal the sick . .so on and so forth . . .

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?' 23Then I will tell them publicly, 'I've never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.'

First of all, when a person dies the bible says that their spirit returns to God Who gave it. God is not in the ground. The witch only saw a vision. Samuel's real spirit could not have come up from the ground as the witch said. As I said before, it was just a familiar spirit. Just like when Christ was transfigured before the three disciples and the disciples saw Moses and Elijah speaking with Christ. But it was just a vision and Christ told them to tell no one of the vision.

I'm also quite sure Saul did not hear that familiar spirit but used the medium to relay the information.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4791.0
A thread on soul sleep. And the witch.

[Cardinal]

..... I guess I'm kinda surprised that I'm the one pointing to Scripture for what's been written toward something that appears to be someone's imagination.  Usually, the accusation is reversed. :grin:

:cloud9: I heard that, LOL..... :goodone:

[reFORMer]

No saints have gone on before us. John said only Christ has ascended and Peter said David did not ascend. The Jewish saints don't go to heaven anyway. They remain on the earth after being resurrected and go into the kingdom to be established on the earth. The saints of the nations assemble as one complete group to the Lord in the air when He returns.

This bizarre racism is one thing about dipSinsationalism I cannot understand how anybody can consider and search out with the result of continuing to hold to it.  I look in the faces of the men who teach it when they appear on T.V., sometimes turning down the volume, just to see what a false teacher looks like.  I try to see if there is some visible sign of their ignorance or deception on their faces.  I'm truly amazed that such a crucial error could become so foundational to dipSinsationalism.  Of many things they say it's not for the Chruch, but, "That is to the Jew," meaning, one who is racially descended from Abraham.  Upon examination, these things they give to Jews are also given to the Church.  It is on the basis of being of Christ to Whom the promises were given.  How such racism could continue to be believed and taught by so many who consider themselves the arbiters of orthodoxy leaves me breathless with my mouth hanging open.  I can hardly believe it!!!  I've dealt with even relatively new believers who'll fight tooth and nail, holding on to their wall between Jew and Gentile, determined to prove God is a racist regardless of the plain teaching of Scripture.  "It is not the children according to the flesh that inherit the promise."  Somehow they refuse to bow their stiff necks to the truth recorded in God's Holy Word.

[Beloved Servant]

"I look in the faces of the men who teach it when they appear on T.V., sometimes turning down the volume, just to see what a false teacher looks like.  I try to see if there is some visible sign of their ignorance or deception on their faces."

I do that, too, reFORMer.

It helps to discern the spirit behind the countenance.

[thinktank]

It is not racism, it simply that the old testment prophets were before the cross and blood, but now after the cross the church Jew and gentile have access to the promises of the seed of Abraham, that seed being Christ and one promise being the resurection of the dead.

Please tell me a scripture where the old testament prophets can be forgiven for their sins. Their sacrifical animal ceromonies could not wash away the law of death, according to Paul.

The old testmant prophets died without Christ, but we die with Christ

There are only rare exceptions e.g Enoch, Elijah, that for some reason God took them.

Ahh I can understand now why you call it racism, Tony said the Jewish saints stay here on Earth, I thought he meant the old testament saints, maybe that's what he means, but if not I don't agree with him, I think the Jewish can accept Christ and be a partaker of the resurection, just as much if not more than the gentile, but I still think, as scripture teaches that the old testament saints(before Christ), do not get the same promises.

[CHB]

Hi All,

Haven't been able to post much but have tried to keep up with what has been written.

I wanted to give my idea as to the Saul and Samuel episode and see what everyone's thoughts were on it.

KJV
In 1Sam. 16:14 the spirit of God departs from Saul and an evil spirit troubles Saul. 

1Sam. 28:13-16 the woman tells Saul she sees "gods ascending out of the earth". Saul never sees Samuel.  The woman tells Saul she sees an old man coming up and he is covered with a mantel. Then Saul PRECEIVED that it was Samuel. (Verse 15) Samuel ask Saul "why have you disquited me"? 

(Verse 19) Samuel tells Saul "tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me".

It seems to say here that Samuel knows he is dead and buried and that is where Saul and his sons will be also.

Now if the dead know not anything, and there is no remembrence in the grave, there has to be another explaination.

Here is an idea I had, don't know if it has any merit or not.

When Peter was in prison and the angel brought him out and came to the place where the other desciples were, they thought it was peter's angel (Acts 12:15).  Do we all have angels that look like us? Makes me wonder?   (Heb. 1:14) Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation.

Everything in heaven is a pattern of things on earth (Heb. 8:5). (Heb. 9:23).  (Ex. 25:40) 

What if this was Samuel's angel just like the angel of the Lord that spoke for the Lord?  The woman never said it was Samuel.

CHB

[Tony N]

No saints have gone on before us. John said only Christ has ascended and Peter said David did not ascend. The Jewish saints don't go to heaven anyway. They remain on the earth after being resurrected and go into the kingdom to be established on the earth. The saints of the nations assemble as one complete group to the Lord in the air when He returns.

This bizarre racism is one thing about dipSinsationalism I cannot understand how anybody can consider and search out with the result of continuing to hold to it.  I look in the faces of the men who teach it when they appear on T.V., sometimes turning down the volume, just to see what a false teacher looks like.  I try to see if there is some visible sign of their ignorance or deception on their faces.  I'm truly amazed that such a crucial error could become so foundational to dipSinsationalism.  Of many things they say it's not for the Chruch, but, "That is to the Jew," meaning, one who is racially descended from Abraham.  Upon examination, these things they give to Jews are also given to the Church.  It is on the basis of being of Christ to Whom the promises were given.  How such racism could continue to be believed and taught by so many who consider themselves the arbiters of orthodoxy leaves me breathless with my mouth hanging open.  I can hardly believe it!!!  I've dealt with even relatively new believers who'll fight tooth and nail, holding on to their wall between Jew and Gentile, determined to prove God is a racist regardless of the plain teaching of Scripture.  "It is not the children according to the flesh that inherit the promise."  Somehow they refuse to bow their stiff necks to the truth recorded in God's Holy Word.

Oh brother, now we are off the subject of the lake of fire and into dispensational teaching! Can't we keep on topic?

The body of Christ is composed of Jews and Gentiles; Jews who have come under Paul's administration of grace.

Peter, James and John and all who belong under their administration remain on the earth. It has nothing to do with racism. Or are you just trying to get this topic shut down?

Read Galatians 2 concerning the agreement between the Circumcision and Uncircumcision.

No read my lips, no one but Jesus has gone to heaven. The Bible says so. Why believe old wives tales?

[WhiteWings]

the Jewish saints stay here on Earth, I thought he meant the old testament saints,

Saints are saved. Jesus is the only way to get saved. So doesn't that mean Jews can't be saints. When those Jews turn to Jesus they are no longer Jews but Christians.
:dontknow:

[Tony N]

the Jewish saints stay here on Earth, I thought he meant the old testament saints,

Saints are saved. Jesus is the only way to get saved. So doesn't that mean Jews can't be saints. When those Jews turn to Jesus they are no longer Jews but Christians.
:dontknow:

Dear WW, the body of Christ under the current administration is composed of Jews and Gentiles in which the central barrier has been torn down in that body. There is now no Jew nor Greek in Christ.  Note the "in Christ."

Peter, James and John and the other Circumcision apostles are not going to heaven. They remain on the earth. They will be judging the twelve tribes:

Mat 19:28 Yet Jesus said to them, "Verily, I am saying to you, that you who follow Me, in the renascence whenever the Son of Mankind should be seated on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (see also Luke 22:30)

We who are in the body of Christ will, at the time they are judging the 12 tribes, be among the celestials.

No one of the Old Testament or New Testament is in heaven except Jesus.

Can we get back to the lake of fire?

The second death is not abolished at all for mankind in John's revelation. That knowledge is left for Paul to reveal as to when the second death is abolished and is found in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.

Once that death is abolished then will God be All in all of Adam's offspring.

[Molly]

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


The air is ruled over by satan.  The air is a spirit which has power that works in the children of disobedience. 


"power"

G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.


So there really is a power that can be received from satan, the mystery of iniquity,  which is granted to initiates by a spirit.  This is why it is a spiritual warfare. 


12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

--John 1


But Christ also gives us power--to become sons of God.

When we are seized by him and meet him in the air, the victory is complete--the mind of Christ, the body of Christ.


Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

--1 Thess 4:17


Caught up in the clouds [witnesses, saints], to meet the Lord in the air [Spirit], to be with the Lord forever.  This is the 'rapture'--being given the power to be sons of God with the mind of Christ forever.   It is not about location, it is about status.

[CHB]

What is the lake of fire and where would it be located?

I agree with WhiteWings that there was something that John related the lof to in his time. Those who existed at that time probably would have no trouble identifying what, where, and what the lof was all about. Just like Jesus used the dump of Jerusalem to describe gehenna.

John was in the Isle that is called Patmos. He was told to write what he saw in a book and SEND IT TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES WHICH ARE IN ASIA. If the lof is not God then is it possible that it is A location such as sea of Galilee or the Dead Sea.

I thought about the river of Jordan because it was a place of baptism which could represent fire but it is not a lake but a river.

Here is what I found about Jordan and the lakes it runs into.

Jordan the one river of Palestine, has a course of 200'miles, from the roots of Anti-Lebanon to the head of the dead sea. It is called "the river of God". {I found this interesting} It was the eastern boundry of the promised land. The Jordan rises from serval sources near Panium and passes through THE LAKES OF MEROM and GENNESARET. The two principal features are its decent and its windings. From its fountain heads to the Dead Sea it rushes down, only broken by a series of precipitous falls. BETWEEN THE LAKE OF GENNESARET AND THE DEAD SEA there are twenty seven rapids; the depression of the lake of Gennesaret below the level of the Mediterranean is 653 feet, and that of the Dead Sea 1316 feet.

The lake that is called Gennesaret is called the Sea of Galilee in the NT. Most of our Lord's life was spent in the environs of the sea of Gennesaret. It is of oval shape and thirteen miles long, and six broad.

Taken from my KJ Bible Dictionary.

I thought all of this was interesting and wondered if John could have thought of this lake when referring to the lof?

CHB

[Molly]

wow chb, very interesting.



John 6:18-20 (New International Version)

18A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. 19When they had rowed three or three and a half miles, they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were terrified. 20But he said to them, "It is I; don't be afraid."

[WhiteWings]

I agree with WhiteWings that there was something that John related the lof to in his time. Those who existed at that time probably would have no trouble identifying what, where, and what the lof was all about. Just like Jesus used the dump of Jerusalem to describe gehenna.
.....
The lake that is called Gennesaret is called the Sea of Galilee in the NT. Most of our Lord's life was spent in the environs of the sea of Gennesaret. It is of oval shape and thirteen miles long, and six broad.
....
I thought all of this was interesting and wondered if John could have thought of this lake when referring to the lof?

Then it would be like a parable. What is the deeper meaning of the parable?