The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[WhiteWings]

Does the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?

"Let the dead burry the dead"

Does the Bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the word "death"?

That's how I read that verse.
The people were physically alive. They did walk and dig. But still, according to the verse, they were dead.
So the verse is about a none physical death.
Imo that means spiritual death. I only know physical and spiritual death.
So to answer your question: Yes.

^KJVMat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

[Nathan]

For me, God is the consuming fire . . . he is the ultimate destroyer.  But not the destruction of men, but the power of man in men.  He is the lake of fire.  The reason why this second death doesn't affect those in the first resurrection is because those in the first resurrection entered into it willingly and knowingly.  The second death is to cleanse all others who didn't experience the first resurrection in this life . .which is what salvation is, it's the resurrection of the original order established by God way back in Genesis.  It's the realignment between man's soul and man's spirit.  it's purpose is to manifest the nature of God, who is spirit, in this realm of flesh.

Nathan, just a couple of questions asked in a spirit of love:

is God the second death? Is God the first death? Is God the absence of life?

If God is the lake of fire is Satan going to be in God while in rebellion?

I always thought God was life (not death) and peace and righteousness.

God (lake of fire) brings the carnality (man)  in me to death.  He is the first and the last, the alpha and omega.  My first death is my sacrifice of self that I give him willingly as a result, we become the first fruits of his resurrection, meaning that even while living in this realm of death, we have been transformed into life.  The second death comes to those who did not experience the first death that comes through salvation of the cross. 

All who are born of the flesh are born into sin . . .born into death.  Those who receive Christ are resurrected from that death . . those who don't are the walking dead Jesus referred to.  They are born into death here and then they die a second death in Him.  But the purpose of the lake is not to destroy man, it's to destroy the carnality in man.  When it's accomplished, man becomes purified in God . . .through the purging fire "of" God.

Death is not absense of life, it's separation of life from flesh.

Thus, no, God is of course, not the absence of life.  He "is" life that brings absence of my carnality.  And satan which again, is not the satan religion has engrained in us to beleive him to be, but instead, satan simply means adversary, which is what my carnal mind "is".  So the carnality that decieves us is what's cast into the lake of fire, which is a baptism of cleansing . . .and no, once carnality is cast/baptized into the cleansing fire of God's nature, it can not continue to "be" rebellion.

Otherwise one would be saying the power of satan can resist the presence of God.

And if you believe as you say in that God is truly life and light, then should we no longer embrace doctrines of death and destruction of men in the first place?

[Tony N]

Does the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?

"Let the dead burry the dead"

Does the Bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the word "death"?

That's how I read that verse.
The people were physically alive. They did walk and dig. But still, according to the verse, they were dead.
So the verse is about a none physical death.
Imo that means spiritual death. I only know physical and spiritual death.
So to answer your question: Yes.

^KJVMat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

O.K. WW. What you call "spiritual death" I call "figurative death." So I gather from your post that if one is not spiritual in the sense that they are fleshly then they are spiritually dead.

But why would God resurrect billions of people out of spiritual death only to cast them into spiritual death once again? Remember, the meaning of the subject "lake of fire" is "the second death." And so we can't make the meaning a different meaning such as "the second death is the death of spiritual death."

[Tony N]

For me, God is the consuming fire . . . he is the ultimate destroyer.  But not the destruction of men, but the power of man in men.  He is the lake of fire.  The reason why this second death doesn't affect those in the first resurrection is because those in the first resurrection entered into it willingly and knowingly.  The second death is to cleanse all others who didn't experience the first resurrection in this life . .which is what salvation is, it's the resurrection of the original order established by God way back in Genesis.  It's the realignment between man's soul and man's spirit.  it's purpose is to manifest the nature of God, who is spirit, in this realm of flesh.

Nathan, just a couple of questions asked in a spirit of love:

is God the second death? Is God the first death? Is God the absence of life?

If God is the lake of fire is Satan going to be in God while in rebellion?

I always thought God was life (not death) and peace and righteousness.

God (lake of fire) brings the carnality (man)  in me to death.  He is the first and the last, the alpha and omega.  My first death is my sacrifice of self that I give him willingly as a result, we become the first fruits of his resurrection, meaning that even while living in this realm of death, we have been transformed into life.  The second death comes to those who did not experience the first death that comes through salvation of the cross. 

All who are born of the flesh are born into sin . . .born into death.  Those who receive Christ are resurrected from that death . . those who don't are the walking dead Jesus referred to.  They are born into death here and then they die a second death in Him.  But the purpose of the lake is not to destroy man, it's to destroy the carnality in man.  When it's accomplished, man becomes purified in God . . .through the purging fire "of" God.

Death is not absense of life, it's separation of life from flesh.

Thus, no, God is of course, not the absence of life.  He "is" life that brings absence of my carnality.  And satan which again, is not the satan religion has engrained in us to beleive him to be, but instead, satan simply means adversary, which is what my carnal mind "is".  So the carnality that decieves us is what's cast into the lake of fire, which is a baptism of cleansing . . .and no, once carnality is cast/baptized into the cleansing fire of God's nature, it can not continue to "be" rebellion.

Otherwise one would be saying the power of satan can resist the presence of God.

And if you believe as you say in that God is truly life and light, then should we no longer embrace doctrines of death and destruction of men in the first place?

O.K. so, for God to be the second death, if, as you say, the lake of fire is God, then God had to be the first death too?

[reFORMer]

"Brimstone" occurs 8 times in the N.T., 7 in Revelation and the remaining passage in Lk 17²⁹ links it to the Hebrew term rendered "brimstone" 7 times.

For the Hebrew gophriyth, Gesenius believes it means, "pitch" (bitumin, or tar,) "...the name of which was afterwards transferred to other inflammable materials; specially sulfur.  It is probably from the (Hbr.) root gopher which is any resinous tree, specially "cypress."  Does the word sound familiar?  The ark was made with "gopher wood overlayed with gold."  This has consistently been understood as the human/Divine nature of Jesus Christ, Who I understand to be God's true ark of the covenant.

The word in AV "brimstone," which is "sulfur," has certainly been mentioned in this topic before.  It is a compound of theos, meaning "God," and ion, meaning "fire."  It seems valid from the literal Word to consider the lake of fire which burns with, "fire and brimstone," to actually be burning with "fire and 'God as fire.'"

It would seem the major constituent of the lake of fire is God.

[WhiteWings]

Does the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?

"Let the dead burry the dead"

Does the Bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the word "death"?

That's how I read that verse.
The people were physically alive. They did walk and dig. But still, according to the verse, they were dead.
So the verse is about a none physical death.
Imo that means spiritual death. I only know physical and spiritual death.
So to answer your question: Yes.

^KJVMat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

O.K. WW. What you call "spiritual death" I call "figurative death." So I gather from your post that if one is not spiritual in the sense that they are fleshly then they are spiritually dead.

I can't give you a good defenition of what's spiritual death for me. I'll try to explain so that you may at least partly understand what I mean by that term.
We should live the way Jesus have taught us. Be honest, caring and helpful to others. Pray and believe in heavenly things. Be a saint.
But our thougts and actions are polluted by greed to name just one thing. If that get's to much we spiritually die. Maybe all but the so called reborn people are spiritually dead. People that are on the wide road. People that oppose instead of thank God.

But why would God resurrect billions of people out of spiritual death only to cast them into spiritual death once again? Remember, the meaning of the subject "lake of fire" is "the second death." And so we can't make the meaning a different meaning such as "the second death is the death of spiritual death."

We can make anything out of it TonyN. It's called different views...
IMO LoF is not spiritual death. LoF is the death/destruction of the spiritual death.
Let's assume we are all born with pure white robe. Everytime we sin a black spot is put on that robe. When the robe is completely black we are declared spiritually dead. When cast into LoF the robe doesn't get even more black, no it gets cleaned by the the "Fullars Soap".

So the 2nd death is the death of the black spots in my example. Not the death of the person that wears robe.

[WhiteWings]

"Brimstone" occurs 8 times in the N.T., 7 in Revelation and the remaining passage in Lk 17²⁹ links it to the Hebrew term rendered "brimstone" 7 times.

For the Hebrew gophriyth, Gesenius believes it means, "pitch" (bitumin, or tar,) "...the name of which was afterwards transferred to other inflammable materials; specially sulfur.  It is probably from the (Hbr.) root gopher which is any resinous tree, specially "cypress."  Does the word sound familiar?  The ark was made with "gopher wood overlayed with gold."  This has consistently been understood as the human/Divine nature of Jesus Christ, Who I understand to be God's true ark of the covenant.

The word in AV "brimstone," which is "sulfur," has certainly been mentioned in this topic before.  It is a compound of theos, meaning "God," and ion, meaning "fire."  It seems valid from the literal Word to consider the lake of fire which burns with, "fire and brimstone," to actually be burning with "fire and 'God as fire.'"

It would seem the major constituent of the lake of fire is God.

Noach's ark was also build from gopher wood.

^KJVIsa 30:33-1 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

The purifying of the Temple was also done with brimstone. To me that means that besides of destuctive things like in Sodom brimstone is also linked to reconstructive things.

http://www.saltshaker.us/BibleStudies/RuleofLaw.htm

[Tony N]

Does the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?

"Let the dead burry the dead"

Does the Bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the word "death"?

That's how I read that verse.
The people were physically alive. They did walk and dig. But still, according to the verse, they were dead.
So the verse is about a none physical death.
Imo that means spiritual death. I only know physical and spiritual death.
So to answer your question: Yes.

^KJVMat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

O.K. WW. What you call "spiritual death" I call "figurative death." So I gather from your post that if one is not spiritual in the sense that they are fleshly then they are spiritually dead.

I can't give you a good defenition of what's spiritual death for me. I'll try to explain so that you may at least partly understand what I mean by that term.
We should live the way Jesus have taught us. Be honest, caring and helpful to others. Pray and believe in heavenly things. Be a saint.
But our thougts and actions are polluted by greed to name just one thing. If that get's to much we spiritually die. Maybe all but the so called reborn people are spiritually dead. People that are on the wide road. People that oppose instead of thank God.

But why would God resurrect billions of people out of spiritual death only to cast them into spiritual death once again? Remember, the meaning of the subject "lake of fire" is "the second death." And so we can't make the meaning a different meaning such as "the second death is the death of spiritual death."

We can make anything out of it TonyN. It's called different views...
IMO LoF is not spiritual death. LoF is the death/destruction of the spiritual death.
Let's assume we are all born with pure white robe. Everytime we sin a black spot is put on that robe. When the robe is completely black we are declared spiritually dead. When cast into LoF the robe doesn't get even more black, no it gets cleaned by the the "Fullars Soap".

So the 2nd death is the death of the black spots in my example. Not the death of the person that wears robe.

O.K. let's look at every verse in Revelation where "death" is used and see if we can throw some more light on this subject:

(Rev 1:18)  and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."

Did Jesus become spiritually dead?

(Rev 2:10)  Fear nothing that you are about to be suffering. Lo! the Adversary is about to be casting some of you into jail that you may be tried, and you will be having affliction ten days. Become faithful until death, and I shall be giving you the wreath of life."

Are they to become faithful unto spiritual death?

(Rev 2:11)  '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."

(Rev 2:23)  And her children shall I be killing with death, and all the ecclesias shall know that I an He Who is searching the kidneys and hearts. And I will be giving to each of you in accord with your acts."

(Rev 6:8)  And I perceived, and lo! a greenish horse, and the name of him who is sitting upon it is Death, and the Unseen followed him. And jurisdiction was given them over the fourth of the earth, to kill with the blade and with famine and with death and by the wild beasts of the earth."

(Rev 9:6)  And in those days men will be seeking death, and under no circumstances shall they be finding it. And they will be yearning to die, and death is fleeing from them."

(Rev 12:11)  And they conquer him through the blood of the Lambkin, and through the word of their testimony, and they love not their soul, until death."

Do they love not their soul unto spiritual death?

(Rev 13:3)  And I perceived one of its heads as if it had been slain to death, and its death blow was cured, and the whole earth marvels after the wild beast."

Was the wild beast alive to God then got spiritually dead but then came back to life to God?

(Rev 13:12)  And it is exercising all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight, and making the earth and those dwelling in it to be worshiping the first wild beast, whose death blow was cured."

(Rev 18:8)  Therefore in one day shall her calamities be arriving; death and mourning and famine. And she shall be burned up with fire, for strong is the Lord God Who judges her."

(Rev 20:6)  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."

(Rev 20:13)  And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts."

How does spiritual death give up the spiritually dead in them?

(Rev 20:14)  And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.

(Rev 21:4)  And He will be brushing away every tear from their eyes. And death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery; they will be no more, for the former things passed away."

(Rev 21:8)  Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

[gregoryfl]

"Brimstone" occurs 8 times in the N.T., 7 in Revelation and the remaining passage in Lk 17²⁹ links it to the Hebrew term rendered "brimstone" 7 times.

For the Hebrew gophriyth, Gesenius believes it means, "pitch" (bitumin, or tar,) "...the name of which was afterwards transferred to other inflammable materials; specially sulfur.  It is probably from the (Hbr.) root gopher which is any resinous tree, specially "cypress."  Does the word sound familiar?  The ark was made with "gopher wood overlayed with gold."  This has consistently been understood as the human/Divine nature of Jesus Christ, Who I understand to be God's true ark of the covenant.

The word in AV "brimstone," which is "sulfur," has certainly been mentioned in this topic before.  It is a compound of theos, meaning "God," and ion, meaning "fire."  It seems valid from the literal Word to consider the lake of fire which burns with, "fire and brimstone," to actually be burning with "fire and 'God as fire.'"

It would seem the major constituent of the lake of fire is God.

Yes Reformer. And we receive another witness to this in Daniel 7, that that fire comes from the Ancient of Days himself. He is the source of it. I mentioned the thematic connections of that chapter with part of Revelation 19 and 20 in an earlier post.

[gregoryfl]

This is the quote I am referring to. I believe this witness is important to take into consideration in terms of understanding what is commonly called the Great White Throne Judgment, and the lake of fire.

You can also go back to the first time it is written about in Daniel 7.

Ron

Where in Daniel 7? I must have overlooked it or I am reading it wrong. Thanks

I will provide what I see to be the same event being written about, according to topic. Here is Daniel's account:

ancient of days sat: his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, and its wheels burning fire.
Dan 7:10  A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousands of thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11  I saw at that time because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke; I saw even until the beast was slain, and its body destroyed, and it was given to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12  As for the rest of the animals, their dominion was taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

And now here is John's account:

Rev 19:20  The beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight, with which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of firethat burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21  The rest were killed with the sword of him who sat on the horse, the sword which came forth out of his mouth. All the birds were filled with their flesh...

Rev 20:12  I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14  Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

The only time in scripture that reference is made to books used for judgment before a throne is in these 2 places, which leads me to believe Daniel and John are seeing the same event, with different nuances. One thing I note is that the fire into which the beast is thrown in Daniel's account has it's source from God himself. I surmise it is possible that God, as a consuming fire, is the source of the lake of fire into which anything not of God gets consumed, and anything which is of God remains.

Ron

Also, as an aside, I also find it interesting that the two statements concerning believers and the second death, namely, that it has no power over them (Rev 20:6) and that it does not hurt them (Rev 2:11), is only found in one other place in scripture, in Daniel's account of the 3 Hebrews thrown into the fire heated 7 times hotter than normal. They are said also to not be hurt by the fire (Dan 3:25), and that it did not have power over them (Dan 3:27). Thus I see through making these thematic connections that Daniel should be read along with Revelation as each compliments the other and shows things concerning the nature of the lake of fire.

[WhiteWings]

O.K. let's look at every verse in Revelation where "death" is used and see if we can throw some more light on this subject:

(Rev 1:18)  and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."

Did Jesus become spiritually dead?

I think that question is enough for a long other thread....
According to some (defenitions) yes. He was cut off. But the cut off didn't start at death but at betrayal. He was seperated from Father.
^KJVMat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

(Rev 2:10)  Fear nothing that you are about to be suffering. Lo! the Adversary is about to be casting some of you into jail that you may be tried, and you will be having affliction ten days. Become faithful until death, and I shall be giving you the wreath of life."

Are they to become faithful unto spiritual death?

Everyone shall be salted with fire. Either willingly LoF before death or forcefully after. Also note the word "tested" it's closely connected to 'tormented' and refiner.

(Rev 2:11)  '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."

You highlighted (bolded?) 'death' in this and several other verses that follow. I don't deny the word death is in the Bible or is used in verses connected with this topic. Neither am I saying it's a wrong translation or something similar. All I ask/say is: What is teh exact meaning of the word death in those verses?
Is it the TonyN defenition of completly, utterly everything, stone cold death. Or.... another type of death.
It's a bit like the word fire. Sometimes it has a spiritual meaning. Other times it's nothing more than a real campfire.

(Rev 2:23)  And her children shall I be killing with death, and all the ecclesias shall know that I an He Who is searching the kidneys and hearts. And I will be giving to each of you in accord with your acts."

(Rev 6:8)  And I perceived, and lo! a greenish horse, and the name of him who is sitting upon it is Death, and the Unseen followed him. And jurisdiction was given them over the fourth of the earth, to kill with the blade and with famine and with death and by the wild beasts of the earth."

(Rev 9:6)  And in those days men will be seeking death, and under no circumstances shall they be finding it. And they will be yearning to die, and death is fleeing from them."

(Rev 12:11)  And they conquer him through the blood of the Lambkin, and through the word of their testimony, and they love not their soul, until death."

Do they love not their soul unto spiritual death?

All those deaths are before loF. And some of them are normal types of deaths. They are killed because of their lack of faith. So they don't love their soul until death because: They don't even believe in souls. Or simply trusted their souls to none existing gods.
I think the horses and what their riders do are highly figurative. I don't expect to see 4 horses. But OTOH I think famine etc is very well possible. I don't understand each verse of Revelation.

(Rev 13:3)  And I perceived one of its heads as if it had been slain to death, and its death blow was cured, and the whole earth marvels after the wild beast."

Was the wild beast alive to God then got spiritually dead but then came back to life to God?

I think it's more like the beats was spiritual dead. Then was dormant for a while. Then came back with it's false teachings again. So it was always spiritual dead.
What exactly it is.... :dontknow:
Pehaps a thriving false religion that nearly died by lack of followers and later it got many followers again. Some believe it has to do with the power of the Vatican. There are so many views. And none of them really belong in this thread I think.

(Rev 13:12)  And it is exercising all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight, and making the earth and those dwelling in it to be worshiping the first wild beast, whose death blow was cured."

(Rev 18:8)  Therefore in one day shall her calamities be arriving; death and mourning and famine. And she shall be burned up with fire, for strong is the Lord God Who judges her."

See above.

(Rev 20:6)  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."

(Rev 20:13)  And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts."

How does spiritual death give up the spiritually dead in them?

I don't even know how there can be any resurrection. I have no power over life and death. I'm not God. The dead in those graves are just that; very dead. After resurrection they are judged in the state they were before death. Sinners. Turned away from God.

[jabcat]

Good thoughts WW.  This is turning into a very interesting thread.  Good job everyone.  It's really nice to hear others' understandings presented in a manner where they can be considered rather than struggling about "who's right".  Though we're still "looking through a glass darkly", I think everyone here has something good to offer.  Thanks!   :thumbsup:

[Tony N]

O.K. let's look at every verse in Revelation where "death" is used and see if we can throw some more light on this subject:

(Rev 1:18)  and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."

Did Jesus become spiritually dead?

WW lovingly replied:
I think that question is enough for a long other thread....
According to some (defenitions) yes. He was cut off. But the cut off didn't start at death but at betrayal. He was seperated from Father.
^KJVMat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Interesting thought WW. But if Jesus became spiritually dead would He have even cared if the Father forsook Him? Would He now have cussed at His lot on the cross if He became spiritually dead and possibly blasphemed the Father like the spiritually dead to?

Tony wrote:
(Rev 2:10)  Fear nothing that you are about to be suffering. Lo! the Adversary is about to be casting some of you into jail that you may be tried, and you will be having affliction ten days. Become faithful until death, and I shall be giving you the wreath of life."

Are they to become faithful unto spiritual death?

WW replied:
Everyone shall be salted with fire. Either willingly LoF before death or forcefully after. Also note the word "tested" it's closely connected to 'tormented' and refiner.

Dear friend, I just recently gave a talk on "everyone shall be salted with fire" at a bible conference in Pennsylvania last week. If you will look at the context it will be interesting to take note that Christ was speaking over and over about the destruction in the fires of Gehenna. The term "salted with fire" must be taken within that context and He was not talking about "everyone who ever lived" but "everyone of the context." Everyone who is not cutting off the sins of the eye, hand and foot will not enjoy life in the 1000 year kingdom but will be destroyed in the fires of Gehenna. It is in that sense that those specific individuals will be salted with fire, the fire of Gehenna which is only in force during the 1000 years. There is a lot more to it but that is it in a nutshell.

Tony wrote:
(Rev 2:11)  '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."

WW replied:
You highlighted (bolded?) 'death' in this and several other verses that follow. I don't deny the word death is in the Bible or is used in verses connected with this topic. Neither am I saying it's a wrong translation or something similar. All I ask/say is: What is teh exact meaning of the word death in those verses?
Is it the TonyN defenition of completly, utterly everything, stone cold death. Or.... another type of death.
It's a bit like the word fire. Sometimes it has a spiritual meaning. Other times it's nothing more than a real campfire.

Tony's reply: It is just my opinion, which might not even be worth a hill of beans, but it just makes sense to me that it can't be speaking of spiritual death. Why would God resurrect them out of spiritual death only to cast them into spiritual death again? I know, at least I think I do, that the idea is that the second death is the death of spiritual death but how does that make sense since they are not written in the book of life? It doesn't say their bad parts are not in the book of life. It does not say their specific sin is not written in the book of life. It is talking about "whoever" and "he" who is not in the book of life that that "whoever" and "he" will be cast into the second absence of life.

Tony wrote:
(Rev 2:23)  And her children shall I be killing with death, and all the ecclesias shall know that I an He Who is searching the kidneys and hearts. And I will be giving to each of you in accord with your acts."

(Rev 6:8)  And I perceived, and lo! a greenish horse, and the name of him who is sitting upon it is Death, and the Unseen followed him. And jurisdiction was given them over the fourth of the earth, to kill with the blade and with famine and with death and by the wild beasts of the earth."

(Rev 9:6)  And in those days men will be seeking death, and under no circumstances shall they be finding it. And they will be yearning to die, and death is fleeing from them."

(Rev 12:11)  And they conquer him through the blood of the Lambkin, and through the word of their testimony, and they love not their soul, until death."

Do they love not their soul unto spiritual death?

WW replied:
All those deaths are before loF. And some of them are normal types of deaths. They are killed because of their lack of faith. So they don't love their soul until death because: They don't even believe in souls. Or simply trusted their souls to none existing gods.
I think the horses and what their riders do are highly figurative. I don't expect to see 4 horses. But OTOH I think famine etc is very well possible. I don't understand each verse of Revelation.

Tony's reply:
Yea, there is a lot about all those symbols in Revelation we are not sure of. I don't think it is possible to know what they are all about until people actually experience them. One thing we both might be able to agree on is it won't be a party for those dwelling on the earth during that time.

(Rev 13:3)  And I perceived one of its heads as if it had been slain to death, and its death blow was cured, and the whole earth marvels after the wild beast."

Was the wild beast alive to God then got spiritually dead but then came back to life to God?

WW replied:
I think it's more like the beast was spiritual dead. Then was dormant for a while. Then came back with it's false teachings again. So it was always spiritual dead.
What exactly it is.... :dontknow:
Pehaps a thriving false religion that nearly died by lack of followers and later it got many followers again. Some believe it has to do with the power of the Vatican. There are so many views. And none of them really belong in this thread I think.

Tony's reply:
I think the wild beast was at enmity to God from its inception. The multi-headed beast might be the world religions in that day like Christianity being one of the heads of the beast and Buddhism and another Islam etc.  :dontknow:

Tony wrote:
(Rev 13:12)  And it is exercising all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight, and making the earth and those dwelling in it to be worshiping the first wild beast, whose death blow was cured."

(Rev 18:8)  Therefore in one day shall her calamities be arriving; death and mourning and famine. And she shall be burned up with fire, for strong is the Lord God Who judges her."

WW replied: See above.

Tony's reply: I see ceiling tiles above.  :laughing7:  :boyheart:

Tony wrote:
(Rev 20:6)  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."

(Rev 20:13)  And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts."

How does spiritual death give up the spiritually dead in them?

WW replied:
I don't even know how there can be any resurrection. I have no power over life and death. I'm not God. The dead in those graves are just that; very dead. After resurrection they are judged in the state they were before death. Sinners. Turned away from God.

I think these miltiplied billions of people will be extremely happily amazed at God's grand display of miraculous power at bringing them back to life and stand before their Saviour on the throne. But Christ did not die to keep them from needful, loving correction. Even the believer is not saved from the Father's needful, loving correction in this life. The murderer will see their victims brought back to life! How cool is that? Joran Van der Sloot will see Natalie Halloway and his recent victim brought back to life! Hitler will see the millions of Jews brought back to life. And no one will accuse God of being unjust for they will be set right as to all that occurred in their lives. Of course this is just speculation on my part. We will just have to see when it actually happens, right?

[WhiteWings]

WW lovingly replied:
I think that question is enough for a long other thread....
According to some (defenitions) yes. He was cut off. But the cut off didn't start at death but at betrayal. He was seperated from Father.
^KJVMat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Interesting thought WW. But if Jesus became spiritually dead would He have even cared if the Father forsook Him? Would He now have cussed at His lot on the cross if He became spiritually dead and possibly blasphemed the Father like the spiritually dead to?

Good point. Unfortunately it doesn't really 'solve' anything for me.
(in) earth is (imo) connected with death as in grave. But also with sin. Jesus was forsaken. Something was going on. Jesus lived a perfect life. And He was 'busy dying' in perfect obedience. And still forsaken. I've done my "calculations" and a little study that show death starting at betrayal is Biblical supported. imo.... So all things considered I still hold to my view; but am the first to admit it's certainly not a perfectly proven view.

WW replied:
Everyone shall be salted with fire. Either willingly LoF before death or forcefully after. Also note the word "tested" it's closely connected to 'tormented' and refiner.

Dear friend, I just recently gave a talk on "everyone shall be salted with fire" .

I have some thought on this; but I think it's not really important for this thread. It will only side-track it.

WW replied:
Is it the TonyN defenition of completly, utterly everything, stone cold death. Or.... another type of death.
It's a bit like the word fire. Sometimes it has a spiritual meaning. Other times it's nothing more than a real campfire.

Tony's reply: It is just my opinion, which might not even be worth a hill of beans, but it just makes sense to me that it can't be speaking of spiritual death. Why would God resurrect them out of spiritual death only to cast them into spiritual death again? I know, at least I think I do, that the idea is that the second death is the death of spiritual death but how does that make sense since they are not written in the book of life? It doesn't say their bad parts are not in the book of life. It does not say their specific sin is not written in the book of life. It is talking about "whoever" and "he" who is not in the book of life that that "whoever" and "he" will be cast into the second absence of life.

I don't know what exactly happens in that fire. I could write down all kind of examples. Maybe they are all correct but it would be nothing more than vanity to say I read know. That said imo the framework of the LoF is as follows.
Resurrection. The people still are as sinful as when they died. But I can accept your view at end end of your post that those people are taken completly by suprise that God even exists etc.
Let me give me one man-made example. Just how I think LoF possibly might work.
I'm a thief. I stole regulary from the poor because they have no burgelar alarm. In LoF I experience how those poor people felt. Hungry for example. That's in a way being judged as I judges others. Tormented means:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal I'm gold. Very polluted gold. LoF refines me. It confronts me with my theft until I really see, agree and feel theft is a bad thing. When the test with the stone turns out positive my time in LoF has ended. Summer school....

1 Corinthians 11:32  and being judged by the Lord, we are chastened ....
Chastened: to train children, to correct. -> Training only works if the child is awake. Not if it's dead as you define it. So this little verse to me is a tiny bit of proof there is awareness in LoF.

Tony's reply:
Yea, there is a lot about all those symbols in Revelation we are not sure of. I don't think it is possible to know what they are all about until people actually experience them. One thing we both might be able to agree on is it won't be a party for those dwelling on the earth during that time.

True. Similarly I think LoF is no party either. I'm not saying being killed again (your LoF) view is happiness; but it get's the Hitlers of mankind of the hook to easy. There is a difference between sinners that just marginally deserve LoF and sinners that practically invented sin. A bit like judged according to their works. But a TonyN-LoF is equal for the tiny and gigantic sinner.
That doesn't feel ok to me.

WW replied: See above.

Tony's reply: I see ceiling tiles above.  :laughing7:  :boyheart:

That's often the case in a tomb TonyN. I think you are awaking :winkgrin:

How cool is that? Joran Van der Sloot will see Natalie Halloway and his recent victim brought back to life! Hitler will see the millions of Jews brought back to life. And no one will accuse God of being unjust for they will be set right as to all that occurred in their lives. Of course this is just speculation on my part. We will just have to see when it actually happens, right?

If I had a choice... No rather not. I'm a LoFfette for sure :sigh:

Joran... never heared of him. Besides the 50 news items of last week  :mblush:

[Nathan]

For me, God is the consuming fire . . . he is the ultimate destroyer.  But not the destruction of men, but the power of man in men.  He is the lake of fire.  The reason why this second death doesn't affect those in the first resurrection is because those in the first resurrection entered into it willingly and knowingly.  The second death is to cleanse all others who didn't experience the first resurrection in this life . .which is what salvation is, it's the resurrection of the original order established by God way back in Genesis.  It's the realignment between man's soul and man's spirit.  it's purpose is to manifest the nature of God, who is spirit, in this realm of flesh.

Nathan, just a couple of questions asked in a spirit of love:

is God the second death? Is God the first death? Is God the absence of life?

If God is the lake of fire is Satan going to be in God while in rebellion?

I always thought God was life (not death) and peace and righteousness.

God (lake of fire) brings the carnality (man)  in me to death.  He is the first and the last, the alpha and omega.  My first death is my sacrifice of self that I give him willingly as a result, we become the first fruits of his resurrection, meaning that even while living in this realm of death, we have been transformed into life.  The second death comes to those who did not experience the first death that comes through salvation of the cross. 

All who are born of the flesh are born into sin . . .born into death.  Those who receive Christ are resurrected from that death . . those who don't are the walking dead Jesus referred to.  They are born into death here and then they die a second death in Him.  But the purpose of the lake is not to destroy man, it's to destroy the carnality in man.  When it's accomplished, man becomes purified in God . . .through the purging fire "of" God.

Death is not absense of life, it's separation of life from flesh.

Thus, no, God is of course, not the absence of life.  He "is" life that brings absence of my carnality.  And satan which again, is not the satan religion has engrained in us to beleive him to be, but instead, satan simply means adversary, which is what my carnal mind "is".  So the carnality that decieves us is what's cast into the lake of fire, which is a baptism of cleansing . . .and no, once carnality is cast/baptized into the cleansing fire of God's nature, it can not continue to "be" rebellion.

Otherwise one would be saying the power of satan can resist the presence of God.

And if you believe as you say in that God is truly life and light, then should we no longer embrace doctrines of death and destruction of men in the first place?

O.K. so, for God to be the second death, if, as you say, the lake of fire is God, then God had to be the first death too?

"I am the ALPHA and OMEGA, the BEGINNING and THE END. . . We quote that all the time . . .I'm a little confused to this line of questioning due to the fact that pretty much all UR followers believe in the "All in All" principle.  God is all things . . .that would include death.

How can God "be" death if God "is" life?.  That is why I say death is not the absence of life, but simply a separation of one thing from another.  Adam did die the day he ate just as God said in the sense that Adam was driven out of the garden, where God resides . . .the realm of the spirit.  The death was the separation from the domain of the spirit to the domain of the earth. 

The lake of fire is the second death for those who were walking dead people already.  The lake of fire purifies and cleanses the carnality that controled man, freeing man from the power of death . . from the power of separation.  So, when death is cast into the lake, I think perhaps you're struggling with that part due to the fact that you're wrestling with God casting himself into himself . . .which isn't what I'm saying. 

We're not saying the lake of fire is death . .we're saying it's the "second" death.  when the first death is cast into the second death . . .it's saying the power of carnality is swallowed up in the consuming fire, the cleansing fire of God, eliminating the power of temptation all together.

The walking dead are spiritually dead . . .which is saying their walking by the power of carnality.  Their spirit is disengaged, it's separated from the throne within us.  Being spiritually dead is not meaning there's no life, it means life in us is separated from the ability to manfiest because we've given that authority over to our mind.  It's a misalignment of order within us.  But when Chirst comes in, he does in us individually what he did for the race at the cross, he realigns our spiritual order which then immediately manifests his resurrection life.  At which point, when we go back to our beliefs, they've become old because the salvation has also renewed our minds, our minds now see all the old things in a new light.

He didn't say he's making all new things, he said he's making all things new.  it's all about the resurrection within, not about a second death physically occuring without.

1 Coprinthians 15
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood (Natural reasoning and logic) cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

What the renewed mind does is, it takes what once used to be a belief of things that would come after death, and it reveals the truths which are now applicable in this life.  A mind that isn't renewed is one that is asleep.  But we are not all asleep any longer, we've been changed.  When the dead things in me are raised . . .that's the definition of what resurrection is.  And it's that process of resurrection is what brings about the change in my nature and understanding.  Inwardly, it's an instant experience.  Outwardly, physcially, it's a process of maturity leading to intimate relationship, leading to revelational truths pertaining to the deep things of God . . .thus, Paul calls it a mystery.  Because the mind can't explain it, it can only observe it.

That's really what Jesus was doing . . .among many other things, with the mount of transfiguration experience.  He was revealing to Peter, James and John- threefold nature of God- that the glory of resurrection that is in us, he was showing them what it looks like on the outside.  He was fulfilling the law and the propehts (Moses and Elijah) when Peter chose to make a doctrine in honor of all three when the sound of God manifested and interrupted his good intentions, but misguided zeal.  You can't continue to honor something that has already been fulfilled.  But that's another sermong . . .this one is pertaining to understanding death.

And death is not the purpose of his plan.  It's resurrection.  But to experience resurrection, we have to go through death . . he had to experience death.  Death is an integral part of the plan, but it's not the plan, nor is it the emphasis of the plan.  Physical death has nothing to do with spiritual life.  Taking these things in a literal context only leads to more debates. 

But like death, physical things do play an integral role, but all have a prupose of leading to spiritual ends.

[Tony N]

Tony wrote:

Nathan, just a couple of questions asked in a spirit of love:

is God the second death? Is God the first death? Is God the absence of life?

If God is the lake of fire is Satan going to be in God while in rebellion?

I always thought God was life (not death) and peace and righteousness.

God (lake of fire) brings the carnality (man)  in me to death.  He is the first and the last, the alpha and omega.  My first death is my sacrifice of self that I give him willingly as a result, we become the first fruits of his resurrection, meaning that even while living in this realm of death, we have been transformed into life.  The second death comes to those who did not experience the first death that comes through salvation of the cross. 

All who are born of the flesh are born into sin . . .born into death.  Those who receive Christ are resurrected from that death . . those who don't are the walking dead Jesus referred to.  They are born into death here and then they die a second death in Him.  But the purpose of the lake is not to destroy man, it's to destroy the carnality in man.  When it's accomplished, man becomes purified in God . . .through the purging fire "of" God.

Death is not absense of life, it's separation of life from flesh.

Thus, no, God is of course, not the absence of life.  He "is" life that brings absence of my carnality.  And satan which again, is not the satan religion has engrained in us to beleive him to be, but instead, satan simply means adversary, which is what my carnal mind "is".  So the carnality that decieves us is what's cast into the lake of fire, which is a baptism of cleansing . . .and no, once carnality is cast/baptized into the cleansing fire of God's nature, it can not continue to "be" rebellion.

Otherwise one would be saying the power of satan can resist the presence of God.

And if you believe as you say in that God is truly life and light, then should we no longer embrace doctrines of death and destruction of men in the first place?

O.K. so, for God to be the second death, if, as you say, the lake of fire is God, then God had to be the first death too?
[/quote]

Nathan wrote: "I am the ALPHA and OMEGA, the BEGINNING and THE END. . . We quote that all the time . . .I'm a little confused to this line of questioning due to the fact that pretty much all UR followers believe in the "All in All" principle.  God is all things . . .that would include death.

I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in everything" but has to do with Adam's posterity. That is what 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is all about. It is not a present fact but a future event which will surely take place.

Tony asked: How can God "be" death if God "is" life?.  Nathan replied: That is why I say death is not the absence of life, but simply a separation of one thing from another.  Adam did die the day he ate just as God said in the sense that Adam was driven out of the garden, where God resides . . .the realm of the spirit.  The death was the separation from the domain of the spirit to the domain of the earth. 

But Adam didn't die the day he ate. He did however begin the dying process "To die shall you be dying and then God gave the explanation of that saying by telling Adam he would work by the sweat of his brow till he return to the soil.

So you get to re-define death so it won't interfere with your theology?  :dontknow:
Literal death is the absence of life. If one is not in the book of life then he/she will not be living in any way, shape or form on the new earth. It does not say that if anyone is not in the book of life they will life in another form. Neither does it say that if one is not in the book of life that just part of that person will die.

Nathan wrote: The lake of fire is the second death for those who were walking dead people already.  The lake of fire purifies and cleanses the carnality that controled man, freeing man from the power of death . . from the power of separation.  So, when death is cast into the lake, I think perhaps you're struggling with that part due to the fact that you're wrestling with God casting himself into himself . . .which isn't what I'm saying. 

You said: "Walking dead people already"? Are they resurrected out of "walking dead"? I don't believe God casts Himself into Himself. I don't have any problem with death cast into the second death. As I stated before, "death" in that instance is a menonymy for all held by death who were not part of the first resurrection.

Nathan wrote: We're not saying the lake of fire is death . .we're saying it's the "second" death.  when the first death is cast into the second death . . .it's saying the power of carnality is swallowed up in the consuming fire, the cleansing fire of God, eliminating the power of temptation all together.

So Christ's death wasn't powerful enough to take away the carnality? God has to now go to plan 'B' to get rid of carnality (by using a LoF)? It is my understanding that the only time these people are **changed** from corruption to incorruption is when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) and then God is All in them and they put on immortality and incorruption. The lake of fire happens many thousands of years prior to God being All in all. So that event (the LoF) can't be the event which makes mankind acceptable to God.

Nathan wrote:
The walking dead are spiritually dead . . .which is saying their walking by the power of carnality.  Their spirit is disengaged, it's separated from the throne within us.  Being spiritually dead is not meaning there's no life, it means life in us is separated from the ability to manfiest because we've given that authority over to our mind.  It's a misalignment of order within us.  But when Chirst comes in, he does in us individually what he did for the race at the cross, he realigns our spiritual order which then immediately manifests his resurrection life.  At which point, when we go back to our beliefs, they've become old because the salvation has also renewed our minds, our minds now see all the old things in a new light.

Tony's reply:
But Nathan, according to Paul, death, the enemy, is not abolished until Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (see 1 Cor.15:22-28) and then and only then God will be All in all. Christ is still reigning throughout John's revelation. So you can't say the lake of fire is going to make all mankind perfected and give them a second life if you will. Their righteousification comes only after death is abolished AFTER Christ quits reigning and AFTER all sovereignty, authority and power are done away with. That happend beyond or after John's revelation, so it can't be done in the LoF.

Just to let you know, my thoughts are given in love and peace and not meant to inflame.

[Tony N]

In deciding this point as to the second death it will help
us to note that the phrase "this is the second death" is an
explanation of what the lake of fire is. We have quite a few
such explanations in the book of the Revelation (Unveiling).
They are of two kinds; explanations of figures and
explanations of literal facts. The important point for us to
note is that, in no case, is the explanation figurative. The
seven stars (Rev.1: 20) are figures; those they represent, the
"angels" or messengers, are literal. So with the lampstands
and the ecclesias or "churches" (Rev.1:20). The statement
"the horns are ten kings" stamps the beast with the horns
as a figure and the ten kings as literal (Rev.17:12). Likewise,
the waters which John saw may not be real water,
but the peoples and multitudes and nations are just what
these words ordinarily imply (Rev.17:15). So with great
Babylon. When we read, "the woman which thou sawest
is the great city" let us rest content with God's explanation
and refuse to explain it further (Rev.17:18). If the messengers
and the ecclesias and the kings and the peoples are literal,
then the city must also be a literal city and not some
religious system or ecclesiastical power.


By this test, the Divine explanation of the lake of fire
must be literal death. We may not reason backward from
this that the lake of fire is figurative, though it undoubtedly
is full of significance.

When we read of the "fine linen, which is the righteousness
of the saints" (Rev.19:8) we may well take the
robes as literal, yet at the same time a most apt symbol
of the just deeds of those who wear them. A literal statement
may be explained as well as a figurative one. But in
any case, whether the lake of fire be taken literally or
figuratively, the laws of language bar us from making
the explanation of it aught but a literal fact. In some instances when
involved with other figures, as in an allegory (Gal.4:25),
the explanation does not, as first glance, seem literal. But
a closer view of even such cases will show that the rule still holds.
Never let us explain God's explanations.
(A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches).

[jabcat]

I agree, many things are literal and spiritual.  So not in direct response to TonyN's last post, but in reading WilliH's post of L. Ray Smith on 'hell', I came across the following.  I found it interesting and pertinent to this discussion, and it may provide further insight and/or things to discuss;

"METAPHORS, PARABLES, AND FIGURES OF SPEECH

Fire is figurative language for judgment - cleansing and purifying. Heb. 12:29 says that

"GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE."

Is God literally composed of physical fire? No, God is "SPIRIT" (John 4:24), and God is "INVISIBLE" (Col. 1:15). How can something that is visible and physical as fire be SPIRIT?

This is a metaphor, where one thing is said to be something else. such as:

"the lake of fire IS the second death"

"this bread IS My body"

"the word of God IS sharper than a sword"

"the good seed ARE the children of the kingdom"

"you ARE the salt of the earth"

"the seven candle sticks ARE the seven churches"

None of these are literal. They are only "like" the things they are said to be, and even then, they are like these things, but only in certain ways.

And so God is "like a consuming fire" in certain ways. Many times Scriptures will use the word "like" rather than "is." Here's a perfect example in Malachi 3:2-3, where fire is also used, figuratively:

"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."

[Nathan]

And I see it in the same light as Willie is explaining.  I see them in faith, rather than emphasizing them as literal facts, I believe there "is" a literal application as well, but I believe the literal application was meant for those to whom it was literally written to.  And even then, it was still metaphoric in it's delivery. 

Is Jesus literally in the appearance of a lamb that had been slain?  Or is he literally with feet of bronze?  Hair of pure white?  Understanding the significance of these things for me, is to let go of the literal implications and pursue the spiritual.  Numbers are there for a purpose, colors are there for a purpose, positions are mentioned for a reason . .whether it's standing, seated, reaching or bowing, each motion has a spiritual, an inward implication. 

So for me to accept the lake of fire as a "literal" death, would mean I would have to let go of the other things I've seen in faith.  It would mean the other things seen in faith have no relevance, and I believe the spiritual carries "more" relevence than the natural, which is why I choose not to embrace the attempts at literal explainations. 

A literal hell, a literal lake of fire, a literal thousand year reign . . .on and on . . .I see each item as a symbol leading to a more illuminating truth of the nature of the Father rather than some future event still pertaining to the realm of the flesh.  So, yes, they are literal and spiritual.  The key is, to which do I choose to identify and pursue?

[Tony N]

Hi Nathan,
To believe something God has said is taking it by faith.

So if God says "the seven candlesticks are the seven churches" to believe they really are seven churches is to take it by faith that that is what they are.

To say, "Well, the seven churches aren't really seven churches but are actually an interior aardvark acting like a sea horse parading itself in a bathtub" is not of faith. To believe something by faith is to actually believe God that what He says something is something it really is something He says it is.

To believe "The Lamb is the King of kings and Lord of lords" (see Rev.17:14) we know God is not talking about a literal lamb but He is talking about a literal King of kings and Lord of lords and so we believe Him that that is just what it is.

[jabcat]

You know what occurs to me that would be neat, is to see a sort of chart or list of things like this;  i.e., seven lamp stands = seven groups of called ones (Phil., Smyrna, etc.)

Eyes as of fire = _____________

White stone/pebble = __________

King of kings, Lord of lords = _____________

Babylon = __________

The whore the nations commit adultary with = _______________

You know, a breakdown of what can be seen as literal, what is metaphorical, etc.  But then I think there could probably be many different charts/lists, based on individuals' understandings - and all coming from brothers/sisters and saints.  Such as Mr. Eby's chart would probably look quite different than Mr. Knoch's.  An example of this would be what we've discussed recently - Dead = "what" exactly?  Spiritually dead, physically dead - dead for a second, dead for 1,000 years, or option #5....  :sigh:

It's a wish, but never mind...  :happy3:

I do know Jesus was dead and is now resurrected/alive!

[jabcat]

Come to think of it, it really might be interesting and enlightening to see those 2 charts from say, Bro's Eby and Knoch.  We could see what they have in common and what they differ on...may help with some of our perspective... hmmmm... :scratchhead:

Sounds like a project that could be done with some research.   

[WhiteWings]

Come to think of it, it really might be interesting and enlightening to see those 2 charts from say, Bro's Eby and Knoch.  We could see what they have in common and what they differ on...may help with some of our perspective... hmmmm... :scratchhead:

Sounds like a project that could be done with some research.    

Busy times for you James  :Book:
Better call your wife that you sleep at office the next few days  :lazy:

[reFORMer]

I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in everything" but has to do with Adam's posterity. That is what 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is all about. It is not a present fact but a future event which will surely take place.

What God makes is out of Himself.  The formulation of theologians centuries ago was that God made things ex nihilo was only meant to say there is no eternally co-existent matter along with God.  He is God alone and He made everything out of nothing.  But notice, when He says, "'Light be,' and light was," that expression came out of Him.  He is the substance of all form.  What do you think, 'From Him, through Him and to Him is the all..." (Rm 11³⁶) means?! PanENtheism, which its detractors say doesn't differ from pantheism?  The problem with this is not recognizing that is not all by which God is defined.  Similar to the fact He is both transcendent and personal is that He is all that there is and, at the same time, everything else is not God.  He is holy, set apart from everything else that exists.

...according to Paul, death, the enemy, is not abolished until Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (see 1 Cor.15:22-28) and then and only then God will be All in all. Christ is still reigning throughout John's revelation. So you can't say the lake of fire is going to make all mankind perfected and give them a second life if you will. Their righteousification comes only after death is abolished AFTER Christ quits reigning and AFTER all sovereignty, authority and power are done away with. That happened beyond or after John's revelation, so it can't be done in the LoF.

Not just future, "...that God may be All in all." 1 Co 15²⁸)
The present reality is, "...all and in all is Christ." (Co 3¹¹) 
(This is not dependent on the extent of our perception of it to determine its validity.)

Of course I can repeat how some exegete these statements away, largely by "contextualism," but their arguments do not satisfy.  (Perhaps someone with the Concordant Interlinear can put the difference between these two statements before us.  There's a difference in the placement of the Greek articles.  My Interlinears are still packed, probably in the attic.)

Notice the following in Isaiah:
Strong's H657 ephec 1) ceasing, end, finality

Isa 45:5      I [am] the LORD 3068, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God 430 beside 2108 me: I girded 247 thee, though thou hast not known 3045 me:

Isa 45:6     That they may know 3045 from the rising 4217 of the sun 8121, and from the west 4628, that [there is] none 657 beside 1107 me. I [am] the LORD 3068, and [there is] none else.

Isa 45:14     Thus saith 559 the LORD 3068, The labour 3018 of Egypt 4714, and merchandise 5505 of Ethiopia 3568 and of the Sabeans 5436, men 582 of stature 4060, shall come over 5674 unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come 3212 after 310 thee; in chains 2131 they shall come over 5674 , and they shall fall down 7812 unto thee, they shall make supplication 6419 unto thee, [saying], Surely God 410 [is] in thee; and [there is] none else, [there is] no 657 God 430.

Isa 45:18     For thus saith 559 the LORD 3068 that created 1254 the heavens 8064; God 430 himself that formed 3335 the earth 776 and made 6213 it; he hath established 3559 it, he created 1254 it not in vain 8414, he formed 3335 it to be inhabited 3427 : I [am] the LORD 3068; and [there is] none else.

Isa 45:22     Look 6437 unto me, and be ye saved 3467 , all the ends 657 of the earth 776: for I [am] God 410, and [there is] none else.

Isa 46:9     Remember 2142 the former things 7223 of old 5769: for I [am] God 410, and [there is] none else; [I am] God 430, and [there is] none 657 like 3644 me,


It seems to me that God here may be also understood as saying there is nothing else that exists but Himself.

[Beloved Servant]

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
                                                                                               — Hebrews 11