The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Beloved Servant]

Furthermore, rule No. 4 posted in the section "What You May Not do," states:
4. Calling out any member's views/opinions as stupid, dumb, crazy etc. viz. insults.
So, please, just because I do not agree with your opinions, do not say that the things of God are
flying right over my head.

[Tony N]

Furthermore, rule No. 4 posted in the section "What You May Not do," states:
4. Calling out any member's views/opinions as stupid, dumb, crazy etc. viz. insults.
So, please, just because I do not agree with your opinions, do not say that the things of God are
flying right over my head.

How was my saying that the new city Jerusalem flew right over your head was saying what you believed about that as being "stupid, dumb, crazy" ? 

Saying a concept flew right over your head was not saying your view or opinion was stupid, dumb or crazy even if you took it that way. You just took it the wrong way. I am not liable for people taking things the wrong way.

[Beloved Servant]

It says nothing about landing on the earth.
So — that's speculation.

Just as you had said about another verse.

How is it than that things are flying over my head and not yours as well?

[Tony N]

It says nothing about landing on the earth.
So — that's speculation.

Just as you had said about another verse.

How is it than that things are flying over my head and not yours as well?

Things can't fly over my head because my head is in heaven.  :cool:

[Beloved Servant]

"Things can't fly over my head because my head is in heaven."

And that implies what?
That my head is not?

Tony, whether you are aware of it or not, these comments self-righteous, passive-aggressive and indirect insults.

[Pierac]

It says nothing about landing on the earth.

Let's review Heaven
G3772

ουρανός
ouranós; gen. ouranoú, masc. noun. Heaven, sky, air. The sing. and pl. are used similarly and interchangeably. There is no difference in meaning between them.  (I) In the NT, in a physical sense, it means the over-arching, all-embracing heaven beneath which is the earth and all that is therein. In this not only do the fowl of the air fly (Mat_6:26; Mat_8:20; Mat_13:32), but the clouds are suspended (Mat_24:30; Mat_26:64; Luk_12:56) and the rain is formed (Jam_5:18)


So where does  the holy city, new Jerusalem descend out of the Heavens (Sky) too?

Just asking
Paul

[Tony N]

"Things can't fly over my head because my head is in heaven."

And that implies what?
That my head is not?

Tony, whether you are aware of it or not, these comments self-righteous, passive-aggressive and indirect insults.

Oh brother, grow some thicker skin and stop acting like a [Mod Edit]

[jabcat]

C'mon Tony, stop trying to push peoples' buttons.  Dispense with the sarcasm and stirring up strife.  This is an official mod notice.

[Tony N]

C'mon Tony, stop trying to push peoples' buttons.  Dispense with the sarcasm and stirring up strife.  This is an official mod notice.

That's just it, jab, I'm not pushign people's buttons. Just because I said something flew over beloved's head, that is pushing people's buttons? Geesh, you people gotta grow up. Quit saying he said she said. Quit acting like little children.

I realize beloved would love nothing better than to have this thread locked down. If you want to that's your decision. But just know, saying something flew over someone's head is not sarcasm nor stirring up strife.

[jabcat]

I'm not talking about one comment.  I'm talking about an ongoing pattern of communication.  To name 2, just in the past 48 hours you've indirectly questioned whether people here were Christians, now you're saying we need to grow up.  I see these as unecessarily caustic comments.  They don't help anyone.  Again, I'm asking you to communicate in a less insulting manner.  If you can't just agree to this, then we need to go to PM, because public criticism of moderation or failing to comply with mod requests carries with them a ban.  So I'm available by PM if you'd like, or please just do what's asked.  Thanks.

[Tony N]

I'm not talking about one comment.  I'm talking about an ongoing pattern of communication.  To name 2, just in the past 48 hours you've indirectly questioned whether people here were Christians, now you're saying we need to grow up.  I see these as unecessarily caustic comments.  They don't help anyone.  Again, I'm asking you to communicate in a less insulting manner.  If you can't just agree to this, then we need to go to PM, because public criticism of moderation or failing to comply with mod requests carries with them a ban.  So I'm available by PM if you'd like, or please just do what's asked.  Thanks.

The phrase: "I thought you people here were christians" was almost 72 hours ago, 71 1/2, almost double the 48 hours and it was related to those who thought they were the lake of fire. It always helps to keep things in context. Now I'm not criticizing you. I'm just trying to lighten up the situation. Come on now Jab, laugh and relax a little. We are not under law but grace.

However, I'll let you slide on your math and try to be nicer in the future. I trust you know I am trying to use lightness here to defuse the situation.  :boyheart:

[jabcat]

Yes, I have a sense of humor.  I get it, and I appreciate it.

I've thought about this, and I realize you're in and out, and haven't been here steadily for a bit.  The thing is, moderation has tightened down over the past year.  This is in large part a response to the free-for-all food fights that were going on prior to that (some of which I'll just say, you are "aware" of  :bigGrin:).  There have been clear statements made that things will not be allowed to even approach that level of disorder.  Key word, that - disorder.  I certainly haven't said anything about the law, but since you bring it up, I would think even you would agree things are to be done decently and IN ORDER.  Whether or no, that being said, there are specific guidelines in place, and a not-so-specific guideline of "moderator discretion".  So I'm asking for what you've agreed to ("be nicer in the future") and we ALL (present company included) need to do the same - be edifying, in love preferring one another - because none of us are above the guidelines.

Thanks Tony.  I'll address this to me, since I'm often guilty - "Let all the good you have to offer not be evil spoken of, sabotaged by that little member that can wreck ships".  Thanks again, God's blessings, James.   :HeartThrob:

[Beloved Servant]

I realize beloved would love nothing better than to have this thread locked down.

Now there you go again.
Why did you write that?

[Tony N]

Yes, I have a sense of humor.  I get it, and I appreciate it.

I've thought about this, and I realize you're in and out, and haven't been here steadily for a bit.  The thing is, moderation has tightened down over the past year.  This is in large part a response to the free-for-all food fights that were going on prior to that (some of which I'll just say, you are "aware" of  :bigGrin:).  There have been clear statements made that things will not be allowed to even approach that level of disorder.  Key word, that - disorder.  I certainly haven't said anything about the law, but since you bring it up, I would think even you would agree things are to be done decently and IN ORDER.  Whether or no, that being said, there are specific guidelines in place, and a not-so-specific guideline of "moderator discretion".  So I'm asking for what you've agreed to ("be nicer in the future") and we ALL (present company included) need to do the same - be edifying, in love preferring one another - because none of us are above the guidelines.

Thanks Tony.  I'll address this to me, since I'm often guilty - "Let all the good you have to offer not be evil spoken of, sabotaged by that little member that can wreck ships".  Thanks again, God's blessings, James.   :HeartThrob:

Jab, you are to be applauded on your most excellent words you have brought up. They have really found a place in my heart and we so often need to be reminded of them.

From now on I will go out of my way to be nice and loving and Christlike.

P.S. I don't remember the food fights but am sure they happened.

Beloved Servant, peace to you!  :Peace:

[jabcat]

Credit goes to God, I've been to the wood shed many times.   :mblush:  He's working in us all for His good pleasure.  I still do appreciate the kind words and good attitude though.  Blessings, James.

[Molly]

...and stop acting like a [Mod Edit]

That's the best line of the day.   :laughing7:

[Pierac]

...and stop acting like a [Mod Edit]

That's the best line of the day.   :laughing7:

Oh behave!  :laughing7:
Paul

[Cardinal]

...and stop acting like a [Mod Edit]

That's the best line of the day.   :laughing7:

:grin:

[reFORMer]

I really was hoping to get some Scripture passages for various particulars concerning the lake of fire that we are discussing so at least some of it would sort out more conclusively in my understanding in talking about 1st, 2nd and so on of death and life.  Like, is the first death what we are born in Adam with, a spirit that needs to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit; or is the first death the death of the body?  As it is, you see a sad revenant, a "shade" really, La Sombra, not a complete man.  I am but a blackened silhouette seen on a rise a little way off, shamboling along into the fiery sunset alone, leaning on my staff.  I comfort myself that Jacob limped ever after God touched him in the hollow of his thigh.

I understand that when Scripture calls it "Mystical Babylon," or, "Secret Babylon" (Rv 17⁵) it is not meant to be a literal city of stone and metal. "Mystical" is psychological, an ongoing "Secret" that the Holy Spirit initiates us into understanding and continues to illuminate us concerning. Unlike the New Jerusalem which is said to be, "...the holy city, new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God..." (Rv 21²) that is spiritual substance; and, while it is to be "understood," an action of the soul, it is made of real entities, not just ideas. For instance, "...the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lambkin." (Rv 21¹⁴, CLT) "The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with every precious stone..." (Rv 21¹⁹, CLT) It is Jesus we are, "...approaching, a living Stone, having been rejected indeed by men, yet chosen by God, held in honor, you, also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, into a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, most acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pt 4⁵, CLT)

I'm quite sure Jesus is not married to a city of metal and other crystals, gems and such. "And one of the seven messengers who have the seven bowls brimming with the last seven calamities came, and he speaks with me, saying, "Hither! I shall be showing you the bride, the wife of the Lambkin." (Rv 17^9-11) When our bodies are born of resurrection we are married unto Jesus physically, not sexually, but our embodiment glorified like unto His own body. This is "the wedding supper of the little lamb."

[Molly]

"mystery Babylon" Rev 7:5

That word 'mystery' means a secret held by the initiates [priests] of a religion.  I would go so far as to say that in this context it is referring to the secret worship, observances, and practices of satan given to priests of satan, handed down only to the initiates of this religion.  This [satan and satan worship] is the source and foundation of the satanic world system, Babylon.



"mystery" [Babylon]

G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.

"The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with every precious stone..." (Rv 2119, CLT) It is Jesus we are, "...approaching, a living Stone, having been rejected indeed by men, yet chosen by God, held in honor, you, also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, into a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, most acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pt 45, CLT)

We are to be built a spiritual house, adorned as a bride for her husband,  the precious stones worn on the breastplates of the priest, the living stone uncut by human hands, fitted together as perfectly and noiselessly as the stones of Solomon's temple, quarried and prepared away from the building site, finally coming together seamlessly to build a temple of the living God.   We are the new Jerusalem.


Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

[Tony N]

I really was hoping to get some Scripture passages for various particulars concerning the lake of fire that we are discussing so at least some of it would sort out more conclusively in my understanding in talking about 1st, 2nd and so on of death and life.  Like, is the first death what we are born in Adam with, a spirit that needs to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit; or is the first death the death of the body?  As it is, you see a sad revenant, a "shade" really, La Sombra, not a complete man.  I am but a blackened silhouette seen on a rise a little way off, shamboling along into the fiery sunset alone, leaning on my staff.  I comfort myself that Jacob limped ever after God touched him in the hollow of his thigh.

Hi reFORMer, the way I look at the deaths spoken of in Revelation i.e. first death and second death is that the first death is what everyone is resurrected out of. The second death is a repetition of that first death.

Does the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?

Death is an enemy not an enema  :laughing7:
If death brought people to God like some suppose the second death will do then it would be a friend. But, sigh, it is an enemy. It is an enemy because it keeps God from being All in all. Once that enemy is abolished then God will be All in all.

[WhiteWings]

Does the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?

"Let the dead burry the dead"

[Nathan]

Wow . . . you beat me to it!  That's eerie, I was just going to post the exact same thing.

All this discussion surrounding second death is coming from these four passages.

Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

For me, God is the consuming fire . . . he is the ultimate destroyer.  But not the destruction of men, but the power of man in men.  He is the lake of fire.  The reason why this second death doesn't affect those in the first resurrection is because those in the first resurrection entered into it willingly and knowingly.  The second death is to cleanse all others who didn't experience the first resurrection in this life . .which is what salvation is, it's the resurrection of the original order established by God way back in Genesis.  It's the realignment between man's soul and man's spirit.  it's purpose is to manifest the nature of God, who is spirit, in this realm of flesh.

[Tony N]

Does the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?

"Let the dead burry the dead"

Does the Bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the word "death"?

[Tony N]

For me, God is the consuming fire . . . he is the ultimate destroyer.  But not the destruction of men, but the power of man in men.  He is the lake of fire.  The reason why this second death doesn't affect those in the first resurrection is because those in the first resurrection entered into it willingly and knowingly.  The second death is to cleanse all others who didn't experience the first resurrection in this life . .which is what salvation is, it's the resurrection of the original order established by God way back in Genesis.  It's the realignment between man's soul and man's spirit.  it's purpose is to manifest the nature of God, who is spirit, in this realm of flesh.

Nathan, just a couple of questions asked in a spirit of love:

is God the second death? Is God the first death? Is God the absence of life?

If God is the lake of fire is Satan going to be in God while in rebellion?

I always thought God was life (not death) and peace and righteousness.