The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[peacemaker]

"The two lakes coalesced into one."

Two Deaths lead to One Life!

peacemaker

[eaglesway]

Robertson Word Pictures Of The New Testament

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/philippians/philippians-2-10.html

Philippians 2:10

That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ina en twi onomati Ihsou pan gonu kampshi).

First aorist active subjunctive of kamptw, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ina.

Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.

Under the earth (kataxtoniwn).

Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.

[WhiteWings]

Your HERE link doesn't work. Can you please fix it?

[Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7]

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)

:thumbsup:

I love this one most of all because most always we forget that ALL have "been" made alive already and there is nothing more to do to be in Christ. At the cross all was dragged IN Christ for ever more , as was All was dragged in Adam for ever more "until" the Christ Came and forfilled His Fathers plan.....

Dear Novus, The incomplete form of the word "die" in 1 Corinthians 15:22 is "dying." So it should be: "even as in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be vivified." All mankind have not yet been vivified or made alive in Christ. Once Christ quits reigning and once all sovereignty, authority and power are done abolished and death is abolished then all the rest of mankind, held by the second death, will come forth and be made alive in Christ.

All die the first death in Adam. All not written in the book of life die the second death in the lake of fire.

Tony , You guys are having a debate about book of Life, and LOF and I am not going there, What I said above is what I teach and believe, Death has been done away with in all things ....Sorry I must clarify , "Separation From God, Spiritual death" All Things Will be Forever Alive-vivified whether or not it chooses anything in it's earth life.

[Tony N]

Hi Tony

Actually, you are correct, I should have simply said I believe the LOF is aionion fire... I was thinking also of the aidos chains of Jude 1:6 and the olam fire of Isaiah 33:14 and should have checked the references before posting. However you did not address the substance of my post, which is that you can't keep up with the flow of what people are saying to you. Your statement about "my paradigm" was inaccurate- so much so that I realized we arent having an edifying conversation- its just jot versus tittle.

As you attributed my response to Peacemaker, I see.....you don't even know who you are responding to.

For me, it may be best to just let it go at this point. I would say that I have presented considerable scripture (right or wrong as to my perspective).... I have no "revelation" that does not come out of the scriptures(correct in my understanding or not). Maybe your paradigm is the standard around which the unity of faith should coalesce, but I doubt it- no one else seems to be able to come in agreement with it. I think some of your views are to narrow(veiled), as in, to this day when Moses is read a veil remains...the letter kills, the spirit gives life. If someone does not accept your sense of what is metonymy and what is literal; the discussion is over.

Let me say that I have enjoyed the discourse for the most part thus far and I do agree with much of your paradigm. The part I reject probably all stems from what I see as your  view on the nature of death, which seems to extend completely through your eschatology. I respect that... I just disagree. Peace, John

Dear eaglesway, before you bow out could you at least do me the favor of responding to this?  I asked before but didn't get an answer. . . . .

eaglesway wrote:
Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.

Tony's reply:
Dear eaglesway, this is what Revelation 5:13 states:
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"

Can you see why Revelation 5:13 cannot be occurring simultaneously with 1 Corinthians 15:24?
It should be staring you in the face in 5:13 but I will see if you can see it first before I say anything about it.

[eaglesway]

Sure Tony no problem. IMO When we see through John's eyes in Rev 5:13 what we are seeing is the fulfillment of Eph 1:10, Romans 8:22, Phil 2:10 and 1 Corinthians 15:24

What I am saying, be patient now, listen and consider what I am saying :o)

There will be a celebration of the subjection of all things(1 Cor 15:24), the gathering of all things into one(Eph 1:10)
and the setting free of the creation from the futility it was subjected to not of its own will, but in hope of the glorious liberty of the sons of God(Romans 8).

Sort of like the celebration they had when they had crossed the Red Sea out of Egypt, and like the prophetic songs of Miriam and Moses.

Then when the song is sung, and the victory celebrated, then He to whom "the all" was subjected will return "the all" to God for the abolition of all rule power and authority and God will be all in all- which means- because everything (pas) will experience the freedom- the glorious liberty of the sons, which is free will harmony, submission to one anther because of love rather than law- there will be no need for any authority, life will reign and death will have been swallowed up with chaos/rebellion.

For this reason I believe that 1 Cor 15:24 involves a stage prior to God being all in all, which is the final fulfillment- which is 1 Cor 15:28


first come "leastness" i.e. humility (knee bows, willingness, taking on servanthood)
then comes "eachness" i.e. to each one of you grace has been given           
                                                (placement for function, fitly joined for edification)
then comes "oneness" i.e. God has placed "each one" in the body that there might be no division
                                                (harmony/chorus, bond of unity, fitly joined for edification)
then comes "fulness" i.e. they were all in one place in one accord as one soul
                                                (tabernacle effect, glory returns to the temple, woman clothed with the sun)
then comes "allness" i.e. Christ as head over the church, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all
                                               (overflow- by this will the world know you are my disciples-if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me)


IMO Christ will achieve "fulness" and "allness" in His body before He sets the creation free. I groan because we have not grown.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Awesome post, eaglesway.......never saw the progression in quite that way before....... :thumbsup: Blessings....

[peacemaker]

The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET ... But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident (contemporaneously) that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected ALL THINGS to Him, so that the SPIRIT may be ALL IN ALL. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)

Tony, you are of the mindset or disposition that an era is an eon; a literal thousand years.

peacemaker

[Tony N]

Dear eaglesway, here is Revelation 5:13 once again:

"And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"

It is impossible for 5:13 to be the sequel to 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Notice the final thing they say: "For the eons of the eons." They are looking forward to the future eons. They are not saying this at the end of the eons. Therefore it cannot possibly be the fulfillment of 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Do you understand this?

[eaglesway]

I don t get it. I asked you to read and listen. I clearly said Rev 5:13 is the PREQUEL(before) to 1 Cor 15:28, not the sequel(after). If you don't have the time to read what a person writes and consider what they say- whats the point?

Eph 1:10, Rev 5:13, 1 Cor 15:24, Rom 8:19 are all before 1 Cor 15:28, as I have said over and over.

Oh Wait. NOW I get it! You R Just Messing With Me :o) hahahah OK, cool- I'm your sucker, now let's be done with this. See ya, John

[Molly]

IMO Christ will achieve "fulness" and "allness" in His body before He sets the creation free. I groan because we have not grown.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

--Eph 4

[Tony N]

The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET ... But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident (contemporaneously) that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected ALL THINGS to Him, so that the SPIRIT may be ALL IN ALL. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)

Tony, you are of the mindset or disposition that an era is an eon; a literal thousand years.

peacemaker

peacemaker, that actually is not true. I don't believe an era is an eon. An era may be part of an eon but is not an eon. But an eon can be 1000 years.

Also, you wrote this: "For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET" I can only imagine you are amplifying that part to try to tell me it is a past act? But that is not what Paul was getting at. He was writing that once the kingdom is handed over to His God and Father, once all sovereignty, authority and power are nullified and once death is abolished then it will be said that "1Co 15:27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him."

The people in the 2nd death must eventually have that death nullified to be subject to Christ so God can be All in all.

[Tony N]

I don t get it. I asked you to read and listen. I clearly said Rev 5:13 is the PREQUEL(before) to 1 Cor 15:28, not the sequel(after). If you don't have the time to read what a person writes and consider what they say- whats the point?

Eph 1:10, Rev 5:13, 1 Cor 15:24, Rom 8:19 are all before 1 Cor 15:28, as I have said over and over.

Oh Wait. NOW I get it! You R Just Messing With Me :o) hahahah OK, cool- I'm your sucker, now let's be done with this. See ya, John

Dear eaglesway, I went through every page of this thread and searched the word "prequel" and could not find where you used it once prior to the above post. You clearly did not say "Rev 5:13 is the PREQUEL (before) to 1 Cor 15:28, not the sequel (after).

It is possible you just didn't read what you wrote carefully enough before posting it? You did use the phrase "just previous to 1 Cor 15:28" and that is what I was honing in on.

Here is what you wrote:

Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.

O.K. so, how can Revelation 5:13 be "just previous to 1 Corinthians 15:28 when at that point in time in 5:13 these people were saying these things prior to "the eons of the eons." That means there are two eons to go.

[eaglesway]

Sequel means after Tony. That was your word, after reading my post, in which I said Rev 5 :13 occurs before(prequel) 1 Cor 15;28
Prequel means before- I was just responding in kind, and in humor to your word selection.
I was just playing off your selection of the word sequel.
Since you would rather play head games than have a substantive discussion, I will as I should have before, bid you adieu for now, Peace, John

[Tony N]

Sequel means after Tony. That was your word, after reading my post, in which I said Rev 5 :13 occurs before(prequel) 1 Cor 15;28
Prequel means before- I was just responding in kind, and in humor to your word selection.
I was just playing off your selection of the word sequel.
Since you would rather play head games than have a substantive discussion, I will as I should have before, bid you adieu for now, Peace, John

Dear eaglesway, I take offense at your improperly suggesting that I would rather play head games. I am not playing head games. How was I possibly to know that your choice of the word "prequel" was to be a humorous reply to my use of the word "sequel"? Believe me when I tell you I didn't see your humor.

Maybe you wish to accuse me of wrongdoing so you can use an ad hominum attack because what I wrote undermines the basis of your belief concerning Revelation 5:13?

Here is what you wrote:

Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.

And here was my "non-mind-game request to you:
O.K. so, how can Revelation 5:13 be "just previous to 1 Corinthians 15:28 when at that point in time in 5:13 these people were saying these things prior to "the eons of the eons." That means there are two eons to go.

Can you answer that rather than just falsely accuse me?  :dontknow:

[Beloved Servant]

John, eaglesway,

Remember, your conversation is in heaven.

[eaglesway]

Hi Tony,
   I apologize for offending you, if I have..... but I really have no desire to dispute jots and tittles with you. I will answer your question, but this will be my last exchange with you on this topic.

IMO, as I have said many times in this thread- seeing through the glass darkly- that in Rev 5:13, Jesus still reigns, but everything has been gathered under Him as one, in love- the glorious liberty of the sons of God. John is seeing a vision outside of time of the fulfillment of Eph 1:10 and 1Cor 15:24


And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
(Rev 5:13)


This shows that every creature is subject to Christ in love(1 Cor 15:24), all things are summed up/gathered into one in Christ(anakephalaiomai pas-Eph1:10), all that was created through Him is reconciled(Col. 1:15-20)- yet He is still on the throne, so all rule power and authority have not yet been abolished. Hence I say it is pre 1 Cor 15:28. By the end of 1 Cor 15:28 God is all in all- a trillion drops of water in one rushing eternal river- the voice of the "sound of many waters" singing songs we do not yet fathom.

I have not made any assertions as to how many eons remain between Rv.5:13; Eph 1:10;et al; and 1 Cor 15:28. You are sure about it- thats great, 2 you say, and I say maybe so, maybe not, I'll continue to examine the evidence. I have not been teaching this as a systematic theology or foundational doctrine- I have called it my perspective and I ask no one to accept it as anything more than that.

Our conversations would be more fruitful> IMO- if you could do the same, rather than acting like you have the absolute word on these issues, and condescending to anyone who disagrees with you. I see some holes in your paradigm, and I am not interested in carrying on debates with someone whose views are already set in stone. I examine what you say with an open mind- tho it may be unfathomable to you that someone could do so and not agree.

To me, as a discussion it is an edifying adventure. As a debate it becomes a draining exercise in futility. At a certain point, the snake is chasing its tail, and it doesnt matter who is the head and who is the tail. It has become unfruitful to me, so thats really all the reason I need to move on. Peace to you tho in Jesus, maybe another time we can look at it again, for now- over and out, John

[Beloved Servant]

"a trillion drops of water"
baptized with fire make a...



















wait for it...















wait for it...














Lake of Fire.

[Tony N]

O.K. thanks for your thoughts eaglesway.

But just something to put in your notebook for future reference; just because I question other's beliefs on any given topic does not mean I think I have all the answers or am unbendable in my position.

This is a great learning experience for me to go over each person's post in this thread. I like to see how everyone sees the scriptures. We are all at different levels (and I am not intimating I am at a higher level by stating that) but I look forward to the day when we will all be at the same level in Christ and there will be no schism in the body.

I will just reiterate what I said before concerning Revelation 5:13 in response to what you said. I understand you do not wish to carry this on further and so I will agree with that but (I get the last word . . . LOL!) :

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth
and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear
also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-
Be blessing and honor and glory and might for the eons of the eons!"

It is my understanding that 5:13 cannot be absolutely every creature for a couple reasons:

1. They are stating what they are stating to Christ prior to the eons of the eons which are the last two eons.
2. If this truly was every creature why need there any bowls to be cast to the earth and all the judgments to come?

Now I know you say at this point in time John is seeing a vision "outside of time." But no one in the Bible, not even Paul who completed the Word of God, saw anything outside of time. I realize you don't want to talk about this further but if this was a statement made outside of time why are they telling Christ that He will get glory, honor and might **for the eons of the eons** which are from their point in time still future?
The term "eons of the eons" are the two greatest eons out of all the prior eons before. They are the 1000 year eon and the new earth eon. It is during these two eons that He will get full honor, power and might among earth's inhabitants. But surely not every human who ever lived from Adam onward will be blessing Him at this point in time.

Anyway, just some things to think about. Just one more thing, are these "creatures" (i.e. animals) who are seeing that God is finally going to do something about their plight with mankind destroying and polluting the earth and so the **creatures** break forth in praise to Him?

For instance a third of the creatures in the sea will die (Rev.8:9).

[eaglesway]

To clarify my view: Time is a bubble surrounded by olam. "The veil" so to speak. God can take us beyond the veil, physically and spiritually(as with Enoch, or Jesus at the mount of transfiguration) or just "in the spirit". IMO at the second advent the veil in the heavens will be rolled back like a scroll(the bubble will tear). IMO when 1 Cor 15:28 is fulfilled the bubble will no longer exist. For now, we know in part- then we shall know as we are known. Now we see through a glass darkly- then we shall see all things. Some of us walk in a more "active" relationship with God in the spirit, in the olam than others. For some the bubble will be consumed completely, in them, at the first resurrection. Perhaps for some it is already more "torn" than for some others.

IMO Your interpretation does not match what is written. You are not seeing what John saw. He saw "every creature on earth, in heaven, under earth and in the sea giving glory to Jesus Christ". You say it could not have been every, but it says every. I believe that includes every sentient being in the kosmos up until then. He was seeing in a vision a future event as if it was happening before His eyes, the gathering into one of all things in Christ, post second resurrection, post LOF, all reconciled. Perhaps even it was happening before His eyes, because we do not understand all that transpires between time and eternity as we look through the glass darkly.

It is possible that the word is simply true as written and your interpretation of the eons of the eons is in some measure inaccurate, or else the Holy Spirit is making a statement that is self contradicting.I prefer to take it at face value and recognize my need to continue digging, rather than to wrangle the words with that "well it could not mean what it actually says there because it would not allow my paradigm to fly" kind of stuff.

Perhaps at some time in the future we will all stand in the unity of faith, in one mind and one accord, and we will see the heavens opened, and the angels ascending and descending on the ecclesia, and the Lord will be adding daily to the them such as are chosen for deliverance. Maybe this will never occur except as it is building "outside the bubble", "beyond the veil"- or perhaps it will be consummated in this age and the feet will stand on land and sea and the head will be in heaven and the lions roar will be heard by "all those who dwell on the earth", making known the aionios gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Tony N]

To clarify my view: Time is a bubble surrounded by olam.

You just burst my bubble.
What about multiple bubbles then since there were bubbles before and we are living in the current wicked bubble (Galatians 1:4) and there are the bubbles of the bubbles to come?

IMO Your interpretation does not match what is written. You are not seeing what John saw. He saw "every creature on earth, in heaven, under earth and in the sea giving glory to Jesus Christ". You say it could not have been every, but it says every. I believe that includes every sentient being in the kosmos up until then. He was seeing in a vision a future event as if it was happening before His eyes, the gathering into one of all things in Christ, post second resurrection, post LOF, all reconciled. Perhaps even it was happening before His eyes, because we do not understand all that transpires between time and eternity as we look through the glass darkly.

By "it could not have been every creature" I should have made it more plainer. It could not be every creature including all mankind. Mankind is not included in the statement "every creature" in Rev.5:13 just as mankind is not included in "a third of the creatures of the sea" in Revelation 8:9. The term "every creature in heaven" does not mean "in heaven where Jesus' throne is" but in the atmosphere which means "the birds flying in the heavens."

Gen 1:26 And saying is the Elohim, "Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our
likeness, and sway shall they over the fish of the sea, and over the flyer of the heavens, and over the
beast, and over all land life, and over every moving animal moving on the land.

Notice in the above you have all the creatures of heaven, the sea and the land just as in Revelation 5:3?

It is possible that the word is simply true as written and your interpretation of the eons of the eons is in some measure inaccurate, or else the Holy Spirit is making a statement that is self contradicting.I prefer to take it at face value and recognize my need to continue digging, rather than to wrangle the words with that "well it could not mean what it actually says there because it would not allow my paradigm to fly" kind of stuff.

A good example of the eons of the eons is to be found in "the holies of the holies" in the tabernacle. The holies of the holies are the two greatest rooms in the tabernacle of the holies which the high priest went through to get to, to meet God. Just as there are 5 holy parts to the tabernacle thus there are 5 eons. The eons correspond in type to the 5 holy parts of the temple. So just saying "my interpretation of the eons of the eons is in some measure inaccurate" is in itself an inaccurate statement from you having no basis in fact to prove my understanding as being inaccurate except alone on your word only which, by the way, proves nothing as you are well aware.

Perhaps at some time in the future we will all stand in the unity of faith, in one mind and one accord, and we will see the heavens opened, and the angels ascending and descending on the ecclesia, and the Lord will be adding daily to the them such as are chosen for deliverance. Maybe this will never occur except as it is building "outside the bubble", "beyond the veil"- or perhaps it will be consummated in this age and the feet will stand on land and sea and the head will be in heaven and the lions roar will be heard by "all those who dwell on the earth", making known the aionian gospel of Jesus Christ.

Not "perhaps" but "most definately at some time in the future we will all stand in the unity of the faith . . . ."

[micah7:9]

This post has been deep  and good in many ways, I liked it. I think the Greek, not the translation, but the wisdom with all its thoughts, is like a gathering of fellow thinkers on a friday night with togas and eating with friends.
I have found that death is death, that is deep as too, think about it. Where as most think of death as a finality, and it is perhaps, but I kinda look at death as life. With out death, that final event ..... Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,(that judgment is the second death, thats what its all about, whether its Gehennna judgment[fire] or LOF judgment) John said it... Joh 12:24  verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit;
In the judgment lies death. There is NO life without death, whether it is a spiritual death or a physical death and that through judgment and that judgment is fire. I thank The Lord Jesus Christ that I no longer find the debate of the LOF and the second death, anything more than time wasted in the academic and Greek, all the words and thoughts that deny death giving liberty to those with the faith in Him. Gal 2:19  for I through law, did die, that to God I may live;
Gal 2:20  with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
Gal 2:21  I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law--then Christ died in vain.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Tony N]

This post has been deep  and good in many ways, I liked it. I think the Greek, not the translation, but the wisdom with all its thoughts, is like a gathering of fellow thinkers on a friday night with togas and eating with friends.
I have found that death is death, that is deep as too, think about it. Where as most think of death as a finality, and it is perhaps, but I kinda look at death as life. With out death, that final event ..... Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,(that judgment is the second death, thats what its all about, whether its Gehennna judgment[fire] or LOF judgment) John said it... Joh 12:24  verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit;
In the judgment lies death. There is NO life without death, whether it is a spiritual death or a physical death and that through judgment and that judgment is fire. I thank The Lord Jesus Christ that I no longer find the debate of the LOF and the second death, anything more than time wasted in the academic and Greek, all the words and thoughts that deny death giving liberty to those with the faith in Him. Gal 2:19  for I through law, did die, that to God I may live;
Gal 2:20  with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
Gal 2:21  I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law--then Christ died in vain.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

Hi micah, thanks for your rather peaceful post.
I am curious though if you believe that all the unbelievers standing before the great white throne are going to live while in death?
I am curious as to what you think about these people whose names are not in the book or scroll of life? If they are not in that scroll and thus are cast into death how can they be alive to God since we know already they are not in the scroll of life?
Does not "scroll of life" mean thost who are in it will be living?
And does not "those not in the scroll of life" mean they won't be living?

When Jesus died, did He literally die? And Stephen? Yes there are figurative usages of death such as the ones you brought up but that does not necessarily mean the death spoken of as the second death is figurative. So, whatcha think?  :dontknow:

[Nathan]

I to have read through this thread, but I've struggled a little more from some posts than others due to the idea that it's a literal description of death, life, lake, literal 1,000 years . . . I struggle because some implicate that their point of views are factual rather than their perspective and because of that mix of signals, it's a struggle to glean truth when what's being projected seems to be the result of natural reasoning more than personal revelation. 

For me, the premise has been off from the start with the understanding of what death is.  For me, it's not the absense of life, it's simply "separation".  Adam died the day he ate because he was no longer in the spirit realm of God, with God, but he was separated from it and planted on the earth from which he was originally created from.  However, the earth he was put on was not the same earth he was created from in the sense that now, because of his misalignment, the earth was cursed.  So now, he had to learn how to live by new rules.  He no longer thrived from the fruit of trees, but now, his identity was from tilling the ground.  But he didn't literally die as we see death to be.  He was simply separated from the realm of God.

When we physcially die now, there is no absense of life.  There is, however, a separation.  Our spirit returns to the realm from which it came and our flesh remains in this realm.  As far as the lake of fire goes . . .I don't agree that it's where ungodly people go to be anhialated.  I believe if your not identifying with the book of life, then you enter into the lake of fire where the dross is removed from you, cleansing you, purifying you to reveal that your pure identity is, and always has been the signature of God's hand in your life all along.  But your carnality that you lived in and lived by, kept it veiled.  But the lake of fire is not to destroy men.  It's to destroy the "man" in men.  the carnality that we constantly do battle with inside ourselves on a daily basis.

The understanding of second death is something that comes to us through faith, not through proof of someone's translation of Scripture.  Scripture, in and of itself, reveals nothing.  It's the Spirit that takes the Word of God and makes it a living thing in us.  And the only thing the Spirit manifests in, as far as I've been able to see, is faith.

[Beloved Servant]

 



                                   :bdh: