The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Tony N]

The book of life is "you, me." Bro. you are oblivious of the meanings out side of your understanding, you are "stuck" in the wisdom of the Greek and can not move forward in the Good News;  the maturing sons, the overcomer is free from your barriers, bais', and obstcales of learning. As long as you presume knowledge, you will gain no perspective of the unfolding of truth.

No, we are not the book of life, literally "scroll of life." Our names are in the scroll of life. Whoever's name was not found in the scroll of life was cast into the absence of life. I am sorry you have to resort to pandering to ad hominums as if it proves anything. Instead of replying in kind to your ad hominum I'll just pray for you.

You glorify death. You make the second death a friend. You call darkness light and night day. Death is an enemy.

[Tony N]

Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name.
Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Sin is not a "who" but an "it."

A man's actions are determined by the state or condition of his heart, and the soul that sins is always conscious that [its] sin is intrinsically worthless, which is in need of correction. Let's not "muddy" the water by playing charade's. There is no man that sins not, and very few who overcome in this life. But all will come to the knowledge of the truth (each in their own era), as death comes upon all men. So likewise does the "Resurrection" of the dead.

"We are not raised from a second grave, or a penalty box."

A harbor of fresh water provides shelter from the wind, waves, and currents of the open sea of humanity.
A haven in time of storms, "Ye of little faith."

I'm not playing any charades nor muddying the waters.
All those whose names are not in the book of life will enter into death which is the absence of life. Therefore they have to be resurrected out of that death in order to be saved.

We aren't talking about fresh water here nor wind nor waves or currents of any sea. We are talking about death which is the absence of life. Whatever fanciful ideas you want give to the lake of fire beyond what John was inspired to give you must come back to the conclusion that whatever the lake of fire is it is definately DEATH and DEATH is the absence of life.

Once they are dead they can't resurrect themselves so God has to do it.

Death is the absence of life, however, this is not speaking of physical death.
You might want to consider, or give some thought to the "Lake" of Galilee.

peacemaker

Of course it's speaking of physical death. The 1st death all mankind experienced will be experienced again in a 2nd death.
The "Lake" of Galilee is not the absence of life. It is wet, not fiery.  :BangHead:

[Tony N]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the revealing, uncovering, unveling, manifeststion, apocalypse in those who are hearing, will hear what the Spirit is saying unto the called out. The resurrection, which is a "rising again," a continual happening as one hears from the awakening from asleep.
Death is a mankind, human being mark, those in Christ have no such thought for they are alive in Him. Death, is no value, has no fortune in the ovecomer, what is death verses the Life given by Christ...NOTHING. Whether that death is  the lake of fire...WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH... has no merit. I am resurrected...rising again...and rising again...rising again..can you not understand that the resurrection is life.
Rev 20:6  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Death is something the flesh, mankind, humanity must go through.

Death, the second death, is something all mankind whose names are not found in the scroll of life must be CAST INTO, not something they go through. They must be CAST INTO the absence of life.

I have no problem with what you wrote above the Revelation 20:6 verse you quoted.

[Tony N]

The absence of life is something that Jesus attributed to many. "Let the dead bury the dead".

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)

Imagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.

Under your paradigm the new earth will be filled full of multiplied billions upon billions of God haters and people who would have nothing whatsoever to do with God and never will.

And all who maketh a lie shall be cast into the second death. So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again and again and again and again and again. :omg:  I hate to say this but I really fear stating something like that because you might really believe it and run with it.  

[WhiteWings]

Imagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.

Sinners are cast into LoF; not into new earth.
Saint and sinner are in different locations. So how can the sinners mess up the new earth?

So these people who are already "spiritually death" somehow get cast into spiritual death again

Who said LoF is spiritual death? It's more like death of the bad spirit.

[Tony N]

Imagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.

WW replied: Sinners are cast into LoF; not into new earth.
Saint and sinner are in different locations. So how can the sinners mess up the new earth?

Some here on tentmaker have said that the lake of fire or second death will be a learning experience in that they will learn God's ways. So by that I understood them to mean that while they are on the new earth they will be in a sort of glorified Sunday School.

Tony wrote: So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again

WW replied: Who said LoF is spiritual death? It's more like death of the bad spirit.

Tony's reply: It is the death of the whole person. Bad spirits are not written in the book of life but an actual person's name. It is the whole, actual person who stands before the great white throne and judged according to their acts.

Also a "bad spirit" didn't have a first death and therefore has to have a second death. The whole person died a first death and has to be cast into a second death.

[WhiteWings]

WW replied: Sinners are cast into LoF; not into new earth.
Saint and sinner are in different locations. So how can the sinners mess up the new earth?

Some here on tentmaker have said that the lake of fire or second death will be a learning experience in that they will learn God's ways. So by that I understood them to mean that while they are on the new earth they will be in a sort of glorified Sunday School.

I think a better comparison is summer school. The kids that messed up during the regular school year (=life) are in summer school; while the good students (=saints) are enjoying the summer in the Kingdom of the Son.
So we have inside and outside of school. No mixing of groups.
So sinners being realy very dead or in summer school has nothing to do with the safety of the Kingdom outside the school.

Tony wrote: So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again

WW replied: Who said LoF is spiritual death? It's more like death of the bad spirit.

Tony's reply: It is the death of the whole person. Bad spirits are not written in the book of life but an actual person's name. It is the whole, actual person who stands before the great white throne and judged according to their acts.

Yes! the whole actual person. And that whole actual person gets completly kicked into the lake. Completly. 100%. All parts are kicked into the lake.
And one part dies in that lake. The rebelious spirit/part/mind/nature dies. So once those cast into LoF are allowed to exit a part is left behind. The part that died. That part is no more.

Also a "bad spirit" didn't have a first death and therefore has to have a second death. The whole person died a first death and has to be cast into a second death.

Exactly the whole person died. That includes the "bad spirit", "bad anti God personallity". So everything suffered the first death. Then it gets ressurected as it was. Equally good or bad. That included a good or bad peronality.

[peacemaker]

Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name.
Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Sin is not a "who" but an "it."

A man's actions are determined by the state or condition of his heart, and the soul that sins is always conscious that [its] sin is intrinsically worthless, which is in need of correction. Let's not "muddy" the water by playing charade's. There is no man that sins not, and very few who overcome in this life. But all will come to the knowledge of the truth (each in their own era), as death comes upon all men. So likewise does the "Resurrection" of the dead.

"We are not raised from a second grave, or a penalty box."

A harbor of fresh water provides shelter from the wind, waves, and currents of the open sea of humanity.
A haven in time of storms, "Ye of little faith."

I'm not playing any charades nor muddying the waters.
All those whose names are not in the book of life will enter into death which is the absence of life. Therefore they have to be resurrected out of that death in order to be saved.

We aren't talking about fresh water here nor wind nor waves or currents of any sea. We are talking about death which is the absence of life. Whatever fanciful ideas you want give to the lake of fire beyond what John was inspired to give you must come back to the conclusion that whatever the lake of fire is it is definately DEATH and DEATH is the absence of life.

Once they are dead they can't resurrect themselves so God has to do it.

Death is the absence of life, however, this is not speaking of physical death.
You might want to consider, or give some thought to the "Lake" of Galilee.

Of course it's speaking of physical death. The 1st death all mankind experienced will be experienced again in a 2nd death.
The "Lake" of Galilee is not the absence of life. It is wet, not fiery.  :BangHead:

The SPIRIT of FIRE moves upon the face of the waters.

If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)

[WhiteWings]

If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)

Yeah. And because LoF is the prime example of fire in the Bible it isn't so unreal to believe LoF is more than dead=dead as TonyN wants us to believe.

[peacemaker]

If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)

Yeah. And because LoF is the prime example of fire in the Bible it isn't so unreal to believe LoF is more than dead = dead as TonyN wants us to believe.

Uncompromising Literalism.

"And the SEA gave up the dead which were in it..."
   
This is not speaking of physical water, as in the world's oceans.  :coffee2:

[CHB]

Hi All,

Have been babysitting and I haven't been able to post lately, have been reading a little now and then though.

And all who maketh a lie shall be cast into the second death. So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again and again and[

Those who are spiritually dead, who don't know Christ, will be made alive in the lof. As WhiteWings said, all of the bad works will die, not the person themselves. The second death is the death of our old man, our bad WORKS.

Death, the second death, is something all mankind whose names are not found in the scroll of life must be CAST INTO, not something they go through. They must be CAST INTO the absence of life.

Yes, those who are not in Christ will experience the second death,... death of their own ways, works...then they will become alive in Christ.

No, we are not the book of life, literally "scroll of life." Our names are in the scroll of life. Whoever's name was not found in the scroll of life was cast into the absence of life. I am sorry you have to resort to pandering to ad hominums as if it proves anything. Instead of replying in kind to your ad hominum I'll just pray for you.

I believe Christ is the book of life. That is why those who are not found in Christ will experience the lof.

I was thinking, :Chinscratch: since John was an apostle to the Jew's and his message was mostly to the Jew's. John taught New Covenant which had works attached to it,...works will be burned up. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles, his message was to the Jew first but Paul left off preaching to the Jew and went to the Gentile. Paul doesn't come out and mention the lof and second death except in saying "works will be burned up".  What if Paul was more advanced in his knowledge of salvation than John was and knew that the lof didn't apply to anyone who believed as Paul did, that is why he didn't teach anything about it? 

I honestly believe that the lof and second death has to do with man's works. Paul came to see that our works was not ours but Christ working in us. If WE have no works we are in Christ, or Christ is in us  so we have nothing to burn.

All of this is probably the simpliest thing to understand but we still have a veil over our eyes. I don't think we will ever know completely what the lof and second death means. We will always have questions about this and we will all have our opinions.

Well, just my  :2c:.

CHB

[Molly]

So we have inside and outside of school. No mixing of groups.
So sinners being really very dead or in summer school has nothing to do with the safety of the Kingdom outside the school

19Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

--Lev 19:19



"For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance"

--Deuteronomy 32:9



Isaiah 43:21
This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

[Tony N]

WW replied: Sinners are cast into LoF; not into new earth.
Saint and sinner are in different locations. So how can the sinners mess up the new earth?

Some here on tentmaker have said that the lake of fire or second death will be a learning experience in that they will learn God's ways. So by that I understood them to mean that while they are on the new earth they will be in a sort of glorified Sunday School.

WW replied: I think a better comparison is summer school. The kids that messed up during the regular school year (=life) are in summer school; while the good students (=saints) are enjoying the summer in the Kingdom of the Son.
So we have inside and outside of school. No mixing of groups.
So sinners being realy very dead or in summer school has nothing to do with the safety of the Kingdom outside the school.

Tony's reply:
The major problems with your scenario: 1. The Bible never says people will learn anything in the 2nd death and 2. You can't teach a dead man new tricks.

The Bible says the dead know nothing and also says "Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom In the unseen where you are going." The unseen is also Sheol which is also the grave or tomb. It stands for death. There is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom in death.

So any summer school for dead people is a complete waste of time.

Tony wrote: So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again

WW replied: Who said LoF is spiritual death? It's more like death of the bad spirit.

Tony's reply: It is the death of the whole person. Bad spirits are not written in the book of life but an actual person's name. It is the whole, actual person who stands before the great white throne and judged according to their acts.

WW replied: Yes! the whole actual person. And that whole actual person gets completly kicked into the lake. Completly. 100%. All parts are kicked into the lake.
And one part dies in that lake. The rebelious spirit/part/mind/nature dies. So once those cast into LoF are allowed to exit a part is left behind. The part that died. That part is no more.

The only problem with your scenario is you have to prove that when all mankind died their first death that just the "rebelious spirit/part/mind/nature dies."
Revelation does not say just a part of man dies in the second death. That is just making things up as you go along. It says "Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." It doesn't say "If any rebellious part of a human was not written in the scroll of life then that bad part of the person was cast into the lake of fire."

Tony wrote: Also a "bad spirit" didn't have a first death and therefore has to have a second death. The whole person died a first death and has to be cast into a second death.

WW replied: Exactly the whole person died. That includes the "bad spirit", "bad anti God personallity". So everything suffered the first death. Then it gets ressurected as it was. Equally good or bad. That included a good or bad peronality.

Tony's reply:  Since the whole person enters into the second death which is the complete absence of life then all which makes up that person dies, not just a bad part.

When the second death is abolished they are all resurrected as perfect people, righteous, justified, immortal. They don't go through school while in death.

[Tony N]

If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)

peacemaker replied: Yeah. And because LoF is the prime example of fire in the Bible it isn't so unreal to believe LoF is more than dead = dead as TonyN wants us to believe.

Tony replied: 1 Corinthians 3:15 has nothing whatsoever to do with the lake of fire. The fire of 1 Cor.3:15 is not the second death for us.

peacemaker replied: Uncompromising Literalism.

Tony's reply: Uncompromising sophistry.

"And the SEA gave up the dead which were in it..."
   
This is not speaking of physical water, as in the world's oceans.  :coffee2:

Actually, here it is speaking of physical water:

Rev 20:13 "And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts."

The sea, death and unseen are all literal and all the dead from Adam to the last human whose name is not written in the book of life is to stand before the G.W.T.

[WhiteWings]

Tony's reply:
The major problems with your scenario: 1. The Bible never says people will learn anything in the 2nd death and 2. You can't teach a dead man new tricks.
The Bible says the dead know nothing and also says "Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom In the unseen where you  :boyheart:are going." The unseen is also Sheol which is also the grave or tomb. It stands for death. There is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom in death.

So any summer school for dead people is a complete waste of time.

That's not true. All have sinned. That means all are dead. That would mean noone would ever make it to heaven. But eventually all are saved/believers. For me that automatically means the dead can and will learn new tricks. Paul/Saul was very dead. He didn't seek God. He tried to destroy Christianity the best way he could. How is the possible that man went from very dead to very much alive. To someone that many Christians take as an example and a man that has written/said words of great importance.
I'm in no way denying the verses you have correctly quoted. But what do those verses really mean? IF they are dead they know nothing for sure. But if the HS starts injecting light into the dark souls they start knowing things. Nothing is impossible with God. That's not just about God's ability to let the tree in your garden grow. It's also the ability to learn the dead a lesson.
And the way I see it we don't disagree on that point. I see it as a process that takes some time (duration is unknown to me)
You see it as something instant. If I understood the last part of your post correctly.

WW replied: Yes! the whole actual person. And that whole actual person gets completly kicked into the lake. Completly. 100%. All parts are kicked into the lake.
And one part dies in that lake. The rebelious spirit/part/mind/nature dies. So once those cast into LoF are allowed to exit a part is left behind. The part that died. That part is no more.

The only problem with your scenario is you have to prove that when all mankind died their first death that just the "rebelious spirit/part/mind/nature dies." Revelation does not say just a part of man dies in the second death. That is just making things up as you go along.

Revelation says something dies. For you "something" is the full 100%.
For me that's not a fact. Just as Revelation doesn't state "100% died" Neither does it state "x% died"
About the first death: The way I see it; 100%, complete man, all parts included die the dead=dead type of death. Very and completly dead.

It says "Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." It doesn't say "If any rebellious part of a human was not written in the scroll of life then that bad part of the person was cast into the lake of fire."

Correct. That's why I earlier wrote that the complete, 100%, every part, nothing excluded, every molecule of that man or woman is cast into LoF. So I'm not saying that certain parts never enter LoF. ALL parts enter LoF.

WW replied: Exactly the whole person died. That includes the "bad spirit", "bad anti God personallity". So everything suffered the first death. Then it gets ressurected as it was. Equally good or bad. That included a good or bad peronality.

Tony's reply:  Since the whole person enters into the second death which is the complete absence of life then all which makes up that person dies, not just a bad part.

I think we running around in circles...
"which is the complete absence of life" => That's the part being discussed here.
This discussion is using a bit of circular reasoning. Someone is standing before an earthly court charged of fraud. Everything that person says is answered with "that's a lies because you are a fraud". The problem is that the man is not a fraud until convicted.
Similar in this discussion there is no "type of death" we can use as proof. Unless we can prove it in different ways.

When the second death is abolished they are all resurrected as perfect people, righteous, justified, immortal. They don't go through school while in death.

Ok, so they learn in the blink of an eye? Then I wonder why Jesus warned that it's better to pluck out your eye etc.
Jesus was warining about something severe. Ok, not a ET style lava torture pit. But imo more than ressurection, judgement and slip back into a dead=dead. Then time passes and you suddenly 'wake up' and that's it.....?

[Tony N]

Yes, they are resurrected out of the LoF, they are then instantly immortal and incorruptible and guess what? God is then All in all. The instant God is All in these people who are resurrected out of the second death they will walk in perfect love for "God is love." They will walk in perfect light for "God is light." They will be in full possession of all the fruits of the spirit. They will have all knowledge and wisdom for "in Whom all knowledge and wisdom are hid." They will be fully reconciled, justified and made righteous. So why would they need to go through Sunday School for years after their resurrection?

They will also learn that I am right and you are not. LOL!  :laughing7:

[Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7]

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)

:thumbsup:

I love this one most of all because most always we forget that ALL have "been" made alive already and there is nothing more to do to be in Christ. At the cross all was dragged IN Christ for ever more , as was All was dragged in Adam for ever more "until" the Christ Came and forfilled His Fathers plan.....

[WhiteWings]

They will also learn that I am right and you are not. LOL!  :laughing7:

Ok, dead man  :laughing7:

[micah7:9]

Death?

[eaglesway]

The absence of life is something that Jesus attributed to many. "Let the dead bury the dead".

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)

Imagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.

Under your paradigm the new earth will be filled full of multiplied billions upon billions of God haters and people who would have nothing whatsoever to do with God and never will.

And all who maketh a lie shall be cast into the second death. So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again and again and again and again and again. :omg:  I hate to say this but I really fear stating something like that because you might really believe it and run with it.  

Actually, my paradigm allows for no such thing. In my paradigm, no one is released from the LOF until they have bowed the knee and confessed from a true repentant broken and contrite heart that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

My paradigm, as I presented before, here in brief

first res. - overcomers in Christ(he that believes in me shall not see death)

second res.- 1000 years later-  all the dead from whenever, of which some are judged righteous out of the books(which are written out of their consciences- the secrets of their hearts Ro. 2:15,16) and the rest are cast into the LOF

No one escapes the LOF(translated) until they have bowed the knee(subjected) and confessed with the tongue out a broken and contrite heart(transformed)

Same pattern as us.....subjected(repentence)-translated(faith)-transformed(sanctification)

As the last world(kosmos) was transformed through water(destroyed and reborn) this present heavens and earth are reserved for fire wherein the elementary principles(stoicheon) will be consumed with intense heat(transformed and reborn)- revealing a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness.

Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.

As I see it our main point of disagreement is what happens in the LOF, or, what the LOF actually represents as a symbol, which is somewhat nebulus, since so little is written. IMO the LOF is aionian fire and aidos fire- its duration is not much of an issue to me- its nature is more of an interest to me.

One of the problems of this board is continuity. Hence as in this case, a person is often renewing the discussion in terms of what someone assumes you are presenting, when they havent been keeping up with the paradigm you have presented anyway :o)

Of course Tony you are maintaining a discussion here with a wide variety of folks with many different paradigms, so I am not criticizing you at all- it is what it is.

[Tony N]

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)

:thumbsup:

I love this one most of all because most always we forget that ALL have "been" made alive already and there is nothing more to do to be in Christ. At the cross all was dragged IN Christ for ever more , as was All was dragged in Adam for ever more "until" the Christ Came and forfilled His Fathers plan.....

Dear Novus, The incomplete form of the word "die" in 1 Corinthians 15:22 is "dying." So it should be: "even as in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be vivified." All mankind have not yet been vivified or made alive in Christ. Once Christ quits reigning and once all sovereignty, authority and power are done abolished and death is abolished then all the rest of mankind, held by the second death, will come forth and be made alive in Christ.

All die the first death in Adam. All not written in the book of life die the second death in the lake of fire.

[Tony N]

The absence of life is something that Jesus attributed to many. "Let the dead bury the dead".

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)

Imagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.

Under your paradigm the new earth will be filled full of multiplied billions upon billions of God haters and people who would have nothing whatsoever to do with God and never will.

And all who maketh a lie shall be cast into the second death. So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again and again and again and again and again. :omg:  I hate to say this but I really fear stating something like that because you might really believe it and run with it.  

Actually, my paradigm allows for no such thing. In my paradigm, no one is released from the LOF until they have bowed the knee and confessed from a true repentant broken and contrite heart that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

My paradigm, as I presented before, here in brief

first res. - overcomers in Christ(he that believes in me shall not see death)

second res.- 1000 years later-  all the dead from whenever, of which some are judged righteous out of the books(which are written out of their consciences- the secrets of their hearts Ro. 2:15,16) and the rest are cast into the LOF

No one escapes the LOF(translated) until they have bowed the knee(subjected) and confessed with the tongue out a broken and contrite heart(transformed)

Same pattern as us.....subjected(repentence)-translated(faith)-transformed(sanctification)

As the last world(kosmos) was transformed through water(destroyed and reborn) this present heavens and earth are reserved for fire wherein the elementary principles(stoicheon) will be consumed with intense heat(transformed and reborn)- revealing a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness.

Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.

Tony's reply:
Dear eaglesway, this is what Revelation 5:13 states:
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"

Can you see why it cannot be occurring simultaneously with 1 Corinthians 15:24?
It should be staring you in the face but I will see if you can see it first before I say anything about it.

eaglesway wrote: As I see it our main point of disagreement is what happens in the LOF, or, what the LOF actually represents as a symbol, which is somewhat nebulus, since so little is written. IMO the LOF is aionian fire and aidos fire- its duration is not much of an issue to me- its nature is more of an interest to me.

Can you please show me a verse where it states the lake of fire is aidos [sic] fire?

eaglesway wrote: One of the problems of this board is continuity. Hence as in this case, a person is often renewing the discussion in terms of what someone assumes you are presenting, when they havent been keeping up with the paradigm you have presented anyway :o)

Of course Tony you are maintaining a discussion here with a wide variety of folks with many different paradigms, so I am not criticizing you at all- it is what it is.

Yea, I know there are a wide variety of folks with differing opinions or differing "revelations" from some God Who seems to have told them conflicting ideas as to what the lake of fire is. Hence my many questions which started out this thread in trying to take in that wide variety of folks.

[peacemaker]

The absence of life is something that Jesus attributed to many. "Let the dead bury the dead".

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)

Imagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.

Under your paradigm the new earth will be filled full of multiplied billions upon billions of God haters and people who would have nothing whatsoever to do with God and never will.

And all who maketh a lie shall be cast into the second death. So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again and again and again and again and again. :omg:  I hate to say this but I really fear stating something like that because you might really believe it and run with it.  

Actually, my paradigm allows for no such thing. In my paradigm, no one is released from the LOF until they have bowed the knee and confessed from a true repentant broken and contrite heart that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

My paradigm, as I presented before, here in brief

first res. - overcomers in Christ(he that believes in me shall not see death)

second res.- 1000 years later-  all the dead from whenever, of which some are judged righteous out of the books(which are written out of their consciences- the secrets of their hearts Ro. 2:15,16) and the rest are cast into the LOF

No one escapes the LOF(translated) until they have bowed the knee(subjected) and confessed with the tongue out a broken and contrite heart(transformed)

Same pattern as us.....subjected(repentence)-translated(faith)-transformed(sanctification)

As the last world(kosmos) was transformed through water(destroyed and reborn) this present heavens and earth are reserved for fire wherein the elementary principles(stoicheon) will be consumed with intense heat(transformed and reborn)- revealing a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness.

Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.

Tony's reply:
Dear peacemaker, this is what Revelation 5:13 states:
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"

Can you see why it cannot be occurring simultaneously with 1 Corinthians 15:24?
It should be staring you in the face but I will see if you can see it first before I say anything about it.

peacemaker wrote: As I see it our main point of disagreement is what happens in the LOF, or, what the LOF actually represents as a symbol, which is somewhat nebulus, since so little is written. IMO the LOF is aionian fire and aidos fire- its duration is not much of an issue to me- its nature is more of an interest to me.

Can you please show me a verse where it states the lake of fire is aidos [sic] fire?

peacemaker wrote: One of the problems of this board is continuity. Hence as in this case, a person is often renewing the discussion in terms of what someone assumes you are presenting, when they havent been keeping up with the paradigm you have presented anyway :o)

Of course Tony you are maintaining a discussion here with a wide variety of folks with many different paradigms, so I am not criticizing you at all- it is what it is.

Yea, I know there are a wide variety of folks with differing opinions or differing "revelations" from some God Who seems to have told them conflicting ideas as to what the lake of fire is. Hence my many questions which started out this thread in trying to take in that wide variety of folks.

"Symptomatic of Retinitis Pigmentosa."

Blindness that generally precedes tunnel vision. Thus, are you addressing:

Dear Peacemaker or Eaglesway within your single theme concerning death?

I must be senile (showing a decline or deterioration in mental functioning), can't remember writing what you quoted?  :dontknow:

[peacemaker]

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying,...

No problem hearing. 
peacemaker :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Hi Tony

Actually, you are correct, I should have simply said I believe the LOF is aionion fire... I was thinking also of the aidos chains of Jude 1:6 and the olam fire of Isaiah 33:14 and should have checked the references before posting. However you did not address the substance of my post, which is that you can't keep up with the flow of what people are saying to you. Your statement about "my paradigm" was inaccurate- so much so that I realized we arent having an edifying conversation- its just jot versus tittle.

As you attributed my response to Peacemaker, I see.....you don't even know who you are responding to.

For me, it may be best to just let it go at this point. I would say that I have presented considerable scripture (right or wrong as to my perspective).... I have no "revelation" that does not come out of the scriptures(correct in my understanding or not). Maybe your paradigm is the standard around which the unity of faith should coalesce, but I doubt it- no one else seems to be able to come in agreement with it. I think some of your views are to narrow(veiled), as in, to this day when Moses is read a veil remains...the letter kills, the spirit gives life. If someone does not accept your sense of what is metonymy and what is literal; the discussion is over.

Let me say that I have enjoyed the discourse for the most part thus far and I do agree with much of your paradigm. The part I reject probably all stems from what I see as your  view on the nature of death, which seems to extend completely through your eschatology. I respect that... I just disagree. Peace, John