The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Molly]

The eonian destruction  away from the presence of the Lord is not speaking of happenning to immortal beings. It is referenced to those mortals who were harrassing the Thessalonians.

How is any mortal being destroyed aioniosly?  Or, for that matter, kept away from the presence of the Lord aioniosly?  I mean, if they're 'dead,' in the sense of unconscious, who cares?


And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

--2 Thess 1:9

[Tony N]

Rev 20:14  and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;

Rev 20:15  and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Rev 21:8  and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part is in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.'

As I see it, If death and Sheol are cast into the LOF then there is no place for the dead to be dead, because the scripture you cited in 1 Cor 15 says death is the last adversary to be subjected. Therefore it is possible that the dead are all passing through the fire where the adversaries, including death and sheol are consumed and can no longer hold anyone. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. John sees this in Rev 5:13 and Christ is still on the throne, holding authority.

Dear eaglesway, the phrase "death and hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death" where "death and hades" is a metonomy. Death and hades represents all held by it. Just as "God so loved the world" where "the world" is a metonomy of all the people of the world. Get it?

So let's replace "death and hades" a metonomy, with what they represent: "All humans held by death and hades, whose names were not written in the book of life, were cast into the second death."

They are not made alive again or vivified UNTIL Christ quits reigning, all sovereignties, authorities and powers are done away and the enemy death is abolished. This takes place beyond what John saw in his revelation.

[Tony N]

The eonian destruction  away from the presence of the Lord is not speaking of happenning to immortal beings. It is referenced to those mortals who were harrassing the Thessalonians.

How is any mortal being destroyed aioniosly?  Or, for that matter, kept away from the presence of the Lord aioniosly?  I mean, if they're 'dead,' in the sense of unconscious, who cares?


And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

--2 Thess 1:9

Those humans will enter into an "eonian extermination from the face of the Lord."  Their extermination is pertaining to the eon or eons as the case may be.

[Molly]

Sovereignties, authorities and power are still in force on the new earth so they can't be made saints then. Those in the 2nd death must wait for Christ to quit reigning and sovereignties, authorities and powers and death to be abolished. That happens at the end of the eons.

I don't have any problem with this.  Except, why resurrect them for the GWT in the first place, only to annihilate them again?  Why not just leave them dead until the end of the eons and then resurrect them?

And, once they are resurrected at the GWT, why aren't they now immortal beings?

  Wasn't Adam's potential immortality--which these resurrected have now achieved--the reason for being thrown out of the garden in the first place?

They could not be resurrected at all without Christ, could they? This is the difference between these GWT folks and Adam.  These GWT folks are resurrected after Christ's work on the cross.

It makes no sense to me that you would actually resurrect all the dead only to annihilate them again.  For what purpose?

This is not Lazarus who was dead for four days.  This is people who have been dead for thousands of years in some cases.  I think it makes more sense that the lake of fire is a solution to handling those who are now resurrected but still spiritually dead to Christ.


"The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

--Gen 3

[Tony N]

Sovereignties, authorities and power are still in force on the new earth so they can't be made saints then. Those in the 2nd death must wait for Christ to quit reigning and sovereignties, authorities and powers and death to be abolished. That happens at the end of the eons.

I don't have any problem with this.  Except, why resurrect them for the GWT in the first place, only to annihilate them again?  Why not just leave them dead until the end of the eons and then resurrect them?

Tony's reply:
But it isn't "only to annihilate them again." It is to judge them. It is to set them straight. If any learning is to take place it is prior to entering into death again.

Why doesn't God wait to judge the believer at the end of the eons?

1Co 11:32 "Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world." So we are judged in this life so as not to later be condemned when the rest of the world is judged. And we later must stand before the dais of Christ to receive rewards. And then you and I and other believers will receive applause from God:

1Co 4:5 "So that, be not judging anything before the season, till the Lord should be coming, Who will also illuminate the hidden things of darkness and manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then applause will be coming to each one from God."

Isn't that nice?

Molly asked: And, once they are resurrected at the GWT, why aren't they now immortal beings?

Why wasn't Lazarus immortal when resurrected from the dead by our Lord? Why weren't all who came out of the graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem after our Lord was resurrected given immortality?  Because immortality is handed out at the proper time. Note 1 Corinthians 15:22-24. This is when each group will be given immortality.

 

Molly asked: Wasn't Adam's potential immortality--which these resurrected have now achieved--the reason for being thrown out of the garden in the first place?

Christ is the One Who was to first to received immortality or vivification, not Adam (1 Cor.15:23). The best Adam could achieve should he eat of the tree of life would be to "live for the eon" (Gen.3:22).

Molly wrote: They could not be resurrected at all without Christ, could they? This is the difference between these GWT folks and Adam.  These GWT folks are resurrected after Christ's work on the cross.

It makes no sense to me that you would actually resurrect all the dead only to annihilate them again.  For what purpose?

This is not Lazarus who was dead for four days.  This is people who have been dead for thousands of years in some cases.  I think it makes more sense that the lake of fire is a solution to handling those who are now resurrected but still spiritually dead to Christ.

Resurrection just means "upstanding from dead ones." It does not confer immortality. If the people before the GWT were given immortality by being resurrected then the lake of fire would not be a death for them.

[eaglesway]

"aionian extermination" seems like a Tonyism to me, not a translation, fits your paradigm tho.

[Molly]

Resurrection just means "upstanding from dead ones." It does not confer immortality. If the people before the GWT were given immortality by being resurrected then the lake of fire would not be a death for them.

This is where I have the problem.  The GWT are raised by Christ after his work on the cross.  His work on the cross is to die for the sins of the world.

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--1 John 2

So, now that we have the propitiation [the wages of sin has been contractually satisfied] and the resurrection of Christ, anyone resurrected at this point by Christ should be immortal.  But, these GWT folks are still spiritually dead to Christ. They have Christ but they don't know it. So, they are being judged by their works, not his.

This is why I think they are immortal.  And, why I think the reason for the lake is a kind of holding place for immortals who are still dead to Christ.

Otherwise, why call it a lake, a safe haven, a harbor? 

But, either way, dead or immortal, they are safe.  God is so good.



"lake" [of fire]

G3041
λίμνη
limnē
lim'-nay
Probably from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.


G3040
λιμήν
limēn
lee-mane'
Apparently a primary word; a harbor: - haven. Compare G2568.



"haven"

A harbor or anchorage; a port.  A place of refuge or rest; a sanctuary.

[eaglesway]

`And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats, and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
(Mat 25:31-33)


And these shall go away to punishment(kolasis) age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

(Mat 25:46)

Also, Tony I see that extermination is the CLV translation of olethros in 2 Thess 1:9.... I believe this is a poor translation, and is an interpretation. "destruction from" is "olethros apo",
olethros is from ollumi which comprises with 'apo' apollumi. The interpretion that this is about separation from the Lord would conflict with Rev 14:9-10

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:9-10)

The burning bush illustration Molly gave fits the verse in Revelation. I believe the olethros, whether it is 'extermination' or torment occurs from the presence of the Lord like a burn occurs from proximity to the flame.

Hence aionian olethros apo the ageduring ruin from (the presence of the Lord) should be parrallel in meaning with Rev 14:9-10

[Tony N]

"aionian extermination" seems like a Tonyism to me, not a translation, fits your paradigm tho.

Nice try eaglesway but no cigar. It is a translation:

2 Thessalonians 1:9  "who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" Concordant literal New Testament

It is a Paulism and fits the Biblical paradigm.

[Tony N]

Resurrection just means "upstanding from dead ones." It does not confer immortality. If the people before the GWT were given immortality by being resurrected then the lake of fire would not be a death for them.

This is where I have the problem.  The GWT are raised by Christ after his work on the cross.  His work on the cross is to die for the sins of the world.

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--1 John 2

So, now that we have the propitiation [the wages of sin has been contractually satisfied] and the resurrection of Christ, anyone resurrected at this point by Christ should be immortal.  But, these GWT folks are still spiritually dead to Christ. They have Christ but they don't know it. So, they are being judged by their works, not his.

This is why I think they are immortal.  And, why I think the reason for the lake is a kind of holding place for immortals who are still dead to Christ.

Otherwise, why call it a lake, a safe haven, a harbor? 

But, either way, dead or immortal, they are safe.  God is so good.

Who says the lake is a safe haven? Not John. He calls it death. Let's stick with what the Bible calls the lake of fire. John never says they are raised immortal and in fact Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, proves they can't be raised immortal!

And yes, Christ is the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the whole world. And yet we believers are still being judged and disciplined AFTER He died for us and AFTER we believe in Him. Again, I must bring to bear 1 Corinthians 11:32 "Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world." So we are judged in this life so as not to later be condemned when the rest of the world is judged.

So if this happens to us who are believers how much more so the unbeliever?

[WhiteWings]

WW asked: BTW you didn't answer my question: When will the sinner become a saint?

If you read my former posts you would see I did answer this before. But I will answer it again.

Must have overlooked it. Sorry...

Those dead, who are not in the book of life, who are in death, the second death, are not saints at that point in time. They will be made righteous and have their lives justified (Romans 5:18,19; and be given immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15) only when the death they are in is abolished.

How fast will that be? I'm not asking for second accuracy.
Will it be (almost) instantly or does it take a lets say a whole year?

[Molly]

Who says the lake is a safe haven?

The word itself says it.  The word 'harbor' is a delight to the ears of any sailor, not a place of horror.  But I gave you the definition of the word.  Here's more--



"sanctuary"


1.A sacred place, such as a church, temple, or mosque.
2. The holiest part of a sacred place, as the part of a Christian church around the altar.
3.Immunity to arrest afforded by a sanctuary.
4.A reserved area in which birds and other animals, especially wild animals, are protected from hunting or molestation.

So we are judged in this life so as not to later be condemned when the rest of the world is judged.

So if this happens to us who are believers how much more so the unbeliever?

Yes, we're being judged, but we're not dead.  If we're dead, who cares?  Judge away.  It won't bother me or change me if I'm dead.

[eaglesway]

Hi Tony
 Yea, I had already given you that in the post just above your 'nice try' post ;o). I looked up olethros(CLV extermination) and all of its occurrences. Actually Tony, I don't want to get lost in the slivers of details. Primarily, the context of the whole cloth as it is written in various selections of scripture establishes our understanding. As yet, I don't see the continuity in your paradigm, which is 'a paradigm', not necessarily 'the biblical paradigm'. Paul's paradigm is most certainly the biblical paradigm and what is at issue is our understanding of it. Paul's paradigm certainly contained a principle of discipline unto submission. What we are discussing on as far as I can tell, are the details of the hows and whens.

[WhiteWings]

Who says the lake is a safe haven?

The word itself says it.  The word 'harbor' is a delight to the ears of any sailor, not a place of horror.  But I gave you the definition of the word.

Revelation 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

3041 li,mnh limne {lim'-nay}
Meaning:  1) a lake
Origin:   probably from 3040 (through the idea of nearness of shore);; n f
A ocean sounds dangerous. But a lake has a more cozy feeling to it.
And near the shore. That for me means the swimmers can quite easily get out.
As opposed being dumped in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean

3040 limh,n limen {lee-mane'}
Meaning:  1) a harbour, haven
Origin:  apparently a root word;; n m
Usage:  AV - haven 2, the fair havens + 2570 1; 3

The root word of that lake is even more safe.
It's a harbor. A safe place. The average sailor wants to be in harbor during storm instead of the middle of the Atlantic.

So people are thrown in a fire at a safe place. It almost sounds like the ones are being protected instead of punished in LoF


Why a 'lake' of fire? Of the commentators we have consulted, none make any reference to this particular word, to its meaning or to the reason for its use. The Greek word translated 'lake' is limne. Parkhurst says that the word indicates a lake of standing water, as opposed to a running stream, and
is so called from lian menein, ['remaining very quiet'], so the Latin stagnum, a pool. Schrevelius reads limne, a port, harbour, haven, station, refuge, accusative limena; as if lian menei, because there the ships rest in safety; hence limenarches, harbour master. Limne occurs in the LXX in Psalm 107:30,
'haven', Psalm 107:35; 114:8, 'a standing water', Song of Solomon,
'fishpools'. The word occurs in the New Testament ten times and is always translated 'lake'. Apart from the five references in the Revelation, the
remainder occur in Luke's Gospel, 5:1,2; 8:22,23,33, the lake Gennesaret,
elsewhere called the Sea of Galilee, and the sea and lake of Tiberias, and in the Old Testament the sea of Chinnereth.

[Molly]

Apart from the five references in the Revelation, the
remainder occur in Luke's Gospel, 5:1,2; 8:22,23,33, the lake Gennesaret,
elsewhere called the Sea of Galilee,

Matthew 4:19
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

[eaglesway]

A lake burning with fire and brimstone doesn't sound too safe to me, Yikes! I have seen a lake of molten lava....wouldn't want to take a swim in it.  I think 'of' may be the imperative word in 'lake of fire'.  :o)

[Tony N]

`And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats, and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
(Mat 25:31-33)


And these shall go away to punishment(kolasis) age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

(Mat 25:46)

Also, Tony I see that extermination is the CLV translation of olethros in 2 Thess 1:9.... I believe this is a poor translation, and is an interpretation. "destruction from" is "olethros apo",
olethros is from ollumi which comprises with 'apo' apollumi. The interpretion that this is about separation from the Lord would conflict with Rev 14:9-10

I think you are confused. 1st of all the CLV translation of 2 Thess.1:9 is excellent.
In Greek it is "olethron aionion apo" and translated is: "eonian extermination from." The elements of the word "olethron" are "whole-ruin" and the elements of apollumi are "from-whole-loose." Olethros is not derived from ollumi. The only thing both words have in common is the element for "whole." Many translations have "destruction" for olethron.

eagle wrote: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:9-10)

The burning bush illustration Molly gave fits the verse in Revelation. I believe the olethros, whether it is 'extermination' or torment occurs from the presence of the Lord like a burn occurs from proximity to the flame.

eagle wrote: Hence aionian olethros apo the ageduring ruin from (the presence of the Lord) should be parrallel in meaning with Rev 14:9-10

Tony's reply: That can't be because the Rev. 14:9-10 is IN THE PRESENCE of the Lord and the Thessalonian verse is "FROM THE PRESENCE of the Lord.

In Molly's example the fire did nothing to the bush. In the Revelation 14 verse the fire destroys them. They are tormented in the fire and sulphur only in the day the Lord destroys Babylon. This is not speaking of the lake of fire.

[Tony N]

Who says the lake is a safe haven?

The word itself says it.  The word 'harbor' is a delight to the ears of any sailor, not a place of horror.  But I gave you the definition of the word.

Revelation 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

3041 li,mnh limne {lim'-nay}
Meaning:  1) a lake
Origin:   probably from 3040 (through the idea of nearness of shore);; n f
A ocean sounds dangerous. But a lake has a more cozy feeling to it.
And near the shore. That for me means the swimmers can quite easily get out.
As opposed being dumped in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean

3040 limh,n limen {lee-mane'}
Meaning:  1) a harbour, haven
Origin:  apparently a root word;; n m
Usage:  AV - haven 2, the fair havens + 2570 1; 3

The root word of that lake is even more safe.
It's a harbor. A safe place. The average sailor wants to be in harbor during storm instead of the middle of the Atlantic.

So people are thrown in a fire at a safe place. It almost sounds like the ones are being protected instead of punished in LoF


Why a 'lake' of fire? Of the commentators we have consulted, none make any reference to this particular word, to its meaning or to the reason for its use. The Greek word translated 'lake' is limne. Parkhurst says that the word indicates a lake of standing water, as opposed to a running stream, and
is so called from lian menein, ['remaining very quiet'], so the Latin stagnum, a pool. Schrevelius reads limne, a port, harbour, haven, station, refuge, accusative limena; as if lian menei, because there the ships rest in safety; hence limenarches, harbour master. Limne occurs in the LXX in Psalm 107:30,
'haven', Psalm 107:35; 114:8, 'a standing water', Song of Solomon,
'fishpools'. The word occurs in the New Testament ten times and is always translated 'lake'. Apart from the five references in the Revelation, the
remainder occur in Luke's Gospel, 5:1,2; 8:22,23,33, the lake Gennesaret,
elsewhere called the Sea of Galilee, and the sea and lake of Tiberias, and in the Old Testament the sea of Chinnereth.

I'm sorry to have to bust your bubble but a lake is not a harbor nor a haven. It may have a harbor but it is not itself a harbor it is a lake. The two are not one and the same. This is getting very strange!  :happy3:

[Tony N]

So we are judged in this life so as not to later be condemned when the rest of the world is judged.

So if this happens to us who are believers how much more so the unbeliever?

Yes, we're being judged, but we're not dead.  If we're dead, who cares?  Judge away.  It won't bother me or change me if I'm dead.

The point you were making sweetie pie is why would God judge these people before the GWT since Christ already died for them. That was the point. Or did you forget your point?

Since that was your point I brought up the fact that believers are judged in this life AFTER the fact that Christ not only died for them but they believe He died for their sins. Do you understand that? Or are you just going to play games with me?

God is going to judge those before the great white throne BEFORE they are cast into death again. In spite of the fact Christ died for their sins. Christ did not die to keep them from needful, loving correction. Do you understand this?

[WhiteWings]

I'm sorry to have to bust your bubble but a lake is not a harbor nor a haven. It may have a harbor but it is not itself a harbor it is a lake. The two are not one and the same. This is getting very strange!  :happy3:

Not if you read what the article is about.... It does not say lake=haven/harbor
It traces back the word that we know as being translated lake. Then the question isn't "Does harbor mean lake?" The question is "Is lake the best translation".

/Edit: Please anwer reply #335

[WhiteWings]

A lake burning with fire and brimstone doesn't sound too safe to me, Yikes! I have seen a lake of molten lava....wouldn't want to take a swim in it.  I think 'of' may be the imperative word in 'lake of fire'.  :o)

So Eagles don't like a sauna?  :winkgrin:
But is it a lake with real fire and real lava? Or is it symbolic for something else. That's a very important question for this thead I think.
The nature of the lake may give us a better idea what it does. I makes a huge difference if it's filled with real fire or a HS type of fire.

"Brimstone" is an interesting word. It comes from THEION which is the neuter of THEIOS which in turn comes from THEOS. THEIOS is interpreted as "Godlike" or "divine," and THEOS is "God."

[Tony N]

WW asked: BTW you didn't answer my question: When will the sinner become a saint?

If you read my former posts you would see I did answer this before. But I will answer it again.

Must have overlooked it. Sorry...

Those dead, who are not in the book of life, who are in death, the second death, are not saints at that point in time. They will be made righteous and have their lives justified (Romans 5:18,19; and be given immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15) only when the death they are in is abolished.

How fast will that be? I'm not asking for second accuracy.
Will it be (almost) instantly or does it take a lets say a whole year?

It will be this fast: when they put on immortality and incorruption which will happen as fast as it does us, in the twinkle of an eye.  :Sparkletooth:

When God is ALL in them they will have instant knowledge and wisdom for "in Him all knowledge and wisdom are concealed" (Col.2:3).

[Tony N]

A lake burning with fire and brimstone doesn't sound too safe to me, Yikes! I have seen a lake of molten lava....wouldn't want to take a swim in it.  I think 'of' may be the imperative word in 'lake of fire'.  :o)

So Eagles don't like a sauna?  :winkgrin:
But is it a lake with real fire and real lava? Or is it symbolic for something else. That's a very important question for this thead I think.
The nature of the lake may give us a better idea what it does. I makes a huge difference if it's filled with real fire or a HS type of fire.

"Brimstone" is an interesting word. It comes from THEION which is the neuter of THEIOS which in turn comes from THEOS. THEIOS is interpreted as "Godlike" or "divine," and THEOS is "God."

Just as the sword that comes out of Christ's mouth in Revelation is not a real sword but represents the words coming out of His mouth, so the lake of fire is not a real lake and not real fire but represents DEATH.

[Molly]

so the lake of fire is not a real lake and not real fire but represents DEATH.

But, death is not a lake, nor would anyone ever use the words 'lake, harbor, or haven' to describe death.  The closest would be, 'rest in peace.'

We talk of death as 'passed on,' 'passed over,' 'passed away.'  No one would ever say, 'He's gone to the lake.'

So, the use of this word is communicating something new to us, a metaphor that we would not see in general usage.

The sword metaphor is more common, as we understand that words can be 'cutting,' or even 'cutting to the bone.'  We say if someone insults us, 'that hurts'.  Or if someone badmouths us, 'he stabbed me in the back'.  Even Shakespeare acknowledges 'the pen is mightier than the sword', so certainly would be a sword coming out of the mouth of the Lord.

So--why lake [of fire]?

[Yab Yum]

If the Adversary, beast and false prophet are all in the lake of fire being "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons", how can we say that anyone else cast into it is "dead"? Presumably the nbames of the Adversary, beast and false prophet are not "written in the book of life" either. Yet they live.