The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Tony N]

Actually, it is the second death, which does not exactly comprehensively express exact sameness to the first death. There may be differences. There is not a lot written.

eaglesway, look again at every occurrence of the word "second" in Revelation and you will see the "second" thing written about is not anything greater than the 1st.

In Revelation 4:7 is the "second animal" not an animal?

In 6:3 is the second seal greater than the 1st seal?

in 8:8 is the second messenger not a messenger? Is it greater than the 1st messenger?

in 11:14 is the second woe not a woe?

in 14:8 is the second messenger not a messenger? Is it greater than the 1st messenger?

in 19:3 is the second time greater than the 1st time? Is it a different time?

Likewise the second death is not a different death. It is death. It is the absence of life. It is for those not written in the book of life. They will not experience life because they are not in the book of life. They will be in a condition which is the absence of life. How much clearer can it be made?  :dontknow:

[eaglesway]

Words express ideas. The limitation of ideas into which you confine certain words may or may not be correct. The definition you give to the word "death" is clear. It may not be incorrect in its most limited sense(as you use it). Yet, your understanding may not include all that the word expresses in the mind of the writer(the Holy Spirit), in various contexts.  Correct within the limit of your parameter of understanding may or may not be complete, comprehensive understanding.

Just because you state that it is limited in such a way, does not make it so. The limit of your perception may re-inforce your understanding but it need not limit mine, if it is incomplete. It seems a bit like circular reasoning to me. I believe in the adhering to constraints of what is written- I just don't agree with your perception/interpretation of the writings on this issue.

So, again, I can only say that to raise people from death, just to judge them and kill them again(put them back into death) seems a little herkemy jerkemy to me .

If "death" is "death"- what is resurrection? What is the nature of this resurrection they experience only to be back into death?  This resurrection is followed by a de-resurrection?Then followed by a re-resurrection?


I only ask these questions because I think the scriptures provide other insights and conclusions than the ones you have reached on this specific issue. They are rhetorical in nature. I am not asking for your detailed response to them. Peace, John

[Tony N]

eagle wrote: So, again, I can only say that to raise people from death, just to judge them and kill them again(put them back into death) seems a little herkemy jerkemy to me .

Well let's suppose I'm wrong. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that God raises billions and billions of people who are not in the book of life, they are judged according to their acts, and so God can look like a good Guy, let's them live in some sort of death state until they die again. What good this does for God or the billions escapes me. They are not vivified or given immortality so they will die again anyway. They will learn nothing about God if they are "spiritually dead." So God has these zombie billions cluttering his new earth which is supposed to be the greatest eon ever with billions upon billions of humans who hate God, have nothing to do with Him, and will surely muddle the last eon with their sinful ways. But hey, if you think my idea of death is herkemy jerkemy what would or should we say of your idea? How about Helter Slelter?

If "death" is "death"- what is resurrection? What is the nature of this resurrection they experience only to be back into death?  This resurrection is followed by a de-resurrection? Then followed by a re-resurrection?

Resurrection is the bringing back to life a dead person. It is not necessarily confiring upon one immortality because Lazarus was resurrected but died later. The Bible knows of no term like de-resurrection. These people will not be vivified or given life beyond the reach of death because that only takes place for these people when Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).

[WhiteWings]

Well let's suppose I'm wrong. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that God raises billions and billions of people who are not in the book of life, they are judged according to their acts,

Now also lets suppose for the sake of argument...  :winkgrin:

Instead of letting them lose on the new earth God kicks them into LoF.
They are alive. They stay alive.  They are aware. But they still have their bad habits. They hate God or simply don't know Him. Basicly they are exactly the same as they were when they walked on this earth. But in that lake they are thaught everything they need to know. Their bad habits get conditioned out.
They are refined. They are tormented (to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal)
And when they are clean they can leave the lake.
And what was the second death you may ask? Things that died in the Lake are: not knowing or rejecting God. All sorts of sinful thoughts and habits. So basicly the sinner died. Just as the chaff is beaten of the wheat and detroyed in the fire.
:2c:

[Molly]

Resurrection is the bringing back to life a dead person. It is not necessarily confiring upon one immortality because Lazarus was resurrected but died later. The Bible knows of no term like de-resurrection. These people will not be vivified or given life beyond the reach of death because that only takes place for these people when Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).

"resurrection"

G386
ανάστασις
anastasis
an-as'-tas-is
From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.


G450
ανίστημι
anistēmi
an-is'-tay-mee
From G303 and G2476; to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).




John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.




We know there is a 'first' and 'better' resurrection.  This happens before the millenium reign of Christ and his saints.  And, there is a second resurrection--the great white throne judgment.

But is there any indication of a third resurrection?

[Tony N]

Well let's suppose I'm wrong. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that God raises billions and billions of people who are not in the book of life, they are judged according to their acts,

Now also lets suppose for the sake of argument...  :winkgrin:

Instead of letting them lose on the new earth God kicks them into LoF.
They are alive. They stay alive.  They are aware. But they still have their bad habits. They hate God or simply don't know Him. Basicly they are exactly the same as they were when they walked on this earth. But in that lake they are thaught everything they need to know. Their bad habits get conditioned out.
They are refined. They are tormented (to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal)
And when they are clean they can leave the lake.
And what was the second death you may ask? Things that died in the Lake are: not knowing or rejecting God. All sorts of sinful thoughts and habits. So basicly the sinner died. Just as the chaff is beaten of the wheat and detroyed in the fire.
:2c:

Just for the sake of argument let's suppose you are wrong.

These people, not written in the book of life, (that means they won't have life) are cast into death.

Notice, it did not say "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are not in the book of life." Nor does it say that "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are cast into death."

And let's suppose this fire is to cleanse the earth.

Can those in death learn anything?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever;

Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom In the unseen where you are going."

[WhiteWings]

Just for the sake of argument let's suppose you are wrong.

If so why you just keep repeating your same words (dead=dead) without answering what I wrote just for the sake of argument....?
I "showed" you death. Death of the old man. Dead of the sinful nature. Now don't attack me on words/verses but try to understand what I'm going to say in the paragraph just below...
The whole creation has always be in a book of life. Because the Lamb was slain at the foundation of the earth. That's Father plan. Agreed?
The whole creation has a good inner part and a polluted sinner. (Wheat and chaff) The Sainst already have killed the sinner part (shed of the chaff) so to speak.
All others are still dead because their sinner part hasn't died yet.

These people, not written in the book of life, (that means they won't have life) are cast into death.

Indeed they don't see life in the glorious Kingdom.

Notice, it did not say "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are not in the book of life." Nor does it say that "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are cast into death."

True. But neither does it say what exactly dies in that LoF

And let's suppose this fire is to cleanse the earth.

Can those in death learn anything?

Was Saul/Paul dead? Did he come alive? He wasn't exactly looking for salvation. But it seems Father has ways to convince people :happy3:
In fact whole creation will be alive at a certain point in time. A huge percentage is Saul at their death.
You see, your argument/view solves absolutely nothing. People get resurrected, judged and killed again because they will pollute the earth.
That indeed solves the problem. Only nice Saints in the Kingdom and all happyness. For a short while....
At a certain point in time they (sinners/dead) get resurrected again. And guess what... they are still sinners ready to pollute the Kingdom. So when are the going to be thaught rightousness?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever;

True the daed no nothing. But that also changes absolutely nothing in God's plan. And that is what I'm trying to figure out.

/edit In case you misundertood. The whole man/sinner; every molecule of him will be cast in LoF so it's not that God strips of sin and casts that in the lake and the rest of the man never enters the Lake

[Tony N]

Just for the sake of argument let's suppose you are wrong.

WW replied: If so why you just keep repeating your same words (dead=dead) without answering what I wrote just for the sake of argument....?
I "showed" you death. Death of the old man. Dead of the sinful nature. Now don't attack me on words/verses but try to understand what I'm going to say in the paragraph just below...
The whole creation has always be in a book of life. Because the Lamb was slain at the foundation of the earth. That's Father plan. Agreed?

Tony's reply:
Revelation does not hint that "the old man was not found written in the book of life." It neither hints that "the sinful nature was not found written in the book of life."

If all creation had their names in the book of life they were erased:

Rev 3:5 '"The one who is conquering, he shall be clothed in white garments, and under no circumstances will I be erasing his name from the scroll of life, and I will be avowing his name in front of My Father and before His messengers."

And there are those whose names are not even written in it:
Rev 13:8 And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."

Notice, it says "everyone" not "everything." "sinful nature" is a thing, not a person.

And there are those whose names have not been in the scroll of life from the foundation/disruption of the world:

Rev 17:8 The wild beast which you perceived was, and is not, and is about to be ascending out of the submerged chaos, and to be going away into destruction. And marvel shall those dwelling on the earth, whose names are not written on the scroll of life from the disruption of the world, when they observe the wild beast, seeing that it was, and is not, and will be present."

So just because the lamb was slain from the foundation/disruption of the world as you say above does not automatically prove everyone's name in all creation was written in the scroll of life to be living in the final eon.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

If any person, not anything was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into death. He was cast into the absence of life.

WW wrote: The whole creation has a good inner part and a polluted sinner. (Wheat and chaff) The Saints already have killed the sinner part (shed off the chaff) so to speak.
All others are still dead because their sinner part hasn't died yet.

That is all speculation. Show the verse which states the whole creation has a good inner part. I thought we were all sinners.

Tony wrote: These people, not written in the book of life, (that means they won't have life) are cast into death.

WW replied: Indeed they don't see life in the glorious Kingdom.

Tony's reply: They won't see life, period, during the final eon.

Tony wrote: Notice, it did not say "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are not in the book of life." Nor does it say that "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are cast into death."

WW replied: True. But neither does it say what exactly dies in that LoF

Tony's reply: Of course it does. THEY, WHOEVER, ANYONE = people, are cast into the absence of life.

Tony wrote: And let's suppose this fire is to cleanse the earth.

Can those in death learn anything?

WW wrote: Was Saul/Paul dead? Did he come alive? He wasn't exactly looking for salvation. But it seems Father has ways to convince people :happy3:
In fact whole creation will be alive at a certain point in time. A huge percentage is Saul at their death.

If Saul/Paul died it would have been his first death. Then when Paul died it would have been his second death. But his name is in the scroll/book of life not because he died a figurative death the first time and not because he died a literal death the second time but because God chose him before the disruption of the world.

WW wrote: You see, your argument/view solves absolutely nothing.

Actually my argument solves everything. You just muddy up the water with what I consider sophistry.

WW wrote: People get resurrected, judged and killed again because they will pollute the earth.

Tony's reply: Really? Is that what Revelation says?

WW wrote: That indeed solves the problem. Only nice Saints in the Kingdom and all happyness. For a short while....
At a certain point in time they (sinners/dead) get resurrected again. And guess what... they are still sinners ready to pollute the Kingdom. So when are they going to be taught rightousness?

Tony quoted to prove no one in the second death learn anything: Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever;

WW replied: True the daed no nothing. But that also changes absolutely nothing in God's plan. And that is what I'm trying to figure out.

It proves the lake of fire is not Sunday School if the dead know nothing.

WW wrote: /edit In case you misundertood. The whole man/sinner; every molecule of him will be cast in LoF so it's not that God strips of sin and casts that in the lake and the rest of the man never enters the Lake

So the whole person gets thrown into the absence of life and somehow this lifeless condition is supposed to change the person? or teach the person while in this lifeless condition?

P.S. I'm not yelling at you or fighting you. I just disagree with you.

[peacemaker]

HIS PRESENCE IS FIRE, HIS WORD IS FIRE, and HIS MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE, for the SPIRIT IS FIRE.

In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, ... (1 Peter 1:6)

All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it –  afterwards,  yield the peaceful fruit of righteousness... (Hebrews 12:11)

Cross reference:

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy... (James 3:17)

"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."

peacemaker

[eaglesway]

Hi Tony
   Okay, then perhaps there is a third resurrection that the scriptures make no mention of when the people who are re-dead after the second resurrection are re-ressurected when Christ returns all to God so that God may be all in all. I get it.

I think it is possible you are wrong.

However, God is not playing the "good guy", if, as I see it, He is purging the wicked in the LOF. Actually, I think it is more the "good guy play" to just put them to sleep for a thousand years.

If the alternative to being in the first resurrection is sleeping through the first installment of aionian life then we are, as Paul stated, cursed above all men, who labor through the heat of the day to overcome, so that those who slept in life(awake oh sleeper, and arise from the dead) get to sleep again through the aions until a "third resurrection", occuring after Christ has subjected them, supposedly while they were "dead", then raised them to life. Why not eat, drink and be merry, for tomoro we die! Death, in such a context, is to be desired even by Paul. But if death holds more than simply,"absence of life", for life is more than the body, then it may be more like the saying.... it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Aionian kolassis has more meaning in this context- as I see it, than in your perspective. This of course is not about perspective, it is about truth. May God be true and everyman a liar, and as I have said a few times already- we see through a glass darkly. Peace, John

Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
(Mat 25:41-42)


Rev 20:10  and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.

Rev 20:14  and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;

Rev 20:15  and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Rev 21:8  and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part is in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.'

As I see it, If death and Sheol are cast into the LOF then there is no place for the dead to be dead, because the scripture you cited in 1 Cor 15 says death is the last adversary to be subjected. Therefore it is possible that the dead are all passing through the fire where the adversaries, including death and sheol are consumed and can no longer hold anyone. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. John sees this in Rev 5:13 and Christ is still on the throne, holding authority.

[WhiteWings]

Notice, it says "everyone" not "everything." "sinful nature" is a thing, not a person.

I see that differently. I, a person, am a combination of things.
A thing (piece of meat), "life-force" , personality (good part and parts)
Plus as I ended my previous post I'm talking about the complete man being cast in LoF. Meaning exactly as complete I am right now typing this message. And very aware of things.

WW wrote: The whole creation has a good inner part and a polluted sinner. (Wheat and chaff) The Saints already have killed the sinner part (shed off the chaff) so to speak.
All others are still dead because their sinner part hasn't died yet.

That is all speculation. Show the verse which states the whole creation has a good inner part. I thought we were all sinners.

Surely we are all sinners. But somehow, eventually, we will be no longer.
For me the sinfree me, is still me.

Tony wrote: And let's suppose this fire is to cleanse the earth.

Can those in death learn anything?

WW wrote: Was Saul/Paul dead? Did he come alive? He wasn't exactly looking for salvation. But it seems Father has ways to convince people :happy3:
In fact whole creation will be alive at a certain point in time. A huge percentage is Saul at their death.

If Saul/Paul died it would have been his first death. Then when Paul died it would have been his second death. But his name is in the scroll/book of life not because he died a figurative death the first time and not because he died a literal death the second time but because God chose him before the disruption of the world.

I think you missed my point. You wrote that the sinner are 'dead' so they won't learn about God. What I'm tried to show is that dead people learn too.

WW wrote: People get resurrected, judged and killed again because they will pollute the earth.

Tony's reply: Really? Is that what Revelation says?

No, it is what you said.

WW wrote: That indeed solves the problem. Only nice Saints in the Kingdom and all happyness. For a short while....
At a certain point in time they (sinners/dead) get resurrected again. And guess what... they are still sinners ready to pollute the Kingdom. So when are they going to be taught rightousness?

Tony quoted to prove no one in the second death learn anything: Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever;

WW replied: True the daed no nothing. But that also changes absolutely nothing in God's plan. And that is what I'm trying to figure out.

It proves the lake of fire is not Sunday School if the dead know nothing.

Most people enter school knowing nothing and leave it knowing much more. Plus ofcourse it greatly depends on how you view what death in 2nd death is. With your type of dead; you are right there isn't a single learning moment in LoF.

Speaking about learning moments. When exactly the people that are cast into LoF will stop being sinners and become saints?

WW wrote: /edit In case you misundertood. The whole man/sinner; every molecule of him will be cast in LoF so it's not that God strips of sin and casts that in the lake and the rest of the man never enters the Lake

So the whole person gets thrown into the absence of life and somehow this lifeless condition is supposed to change the person? or teach the person while in this lifeless condition?

[/quote]Tony, we will never  get anywhere if you keep replying like that.
I know you see LoF as 100% lifeless. I have no problem with that. But it's very counter productive to keep looking at things from that view. The reply you gave just above is a good example of that.
Again you conclude that I suggest that people on complete lifelessness possibly learn something.
By now you should know I never said they are lifeless.

P.S. I'm not yelling at you or fighting you. I just disagree with you.

Same here.
I didn't intend to answer agains after our few posts a few days back. We both stated our thing. We didn't agree. That's no problem with me. Everyone is allowed to have his/her view on things.
I also have to state I see both you, my, and other views as possibilities. I'm just showed/showing a possibilty.
But then a few messages later you make a statement like you proved your view and all agree on it.
And that's why I replied again and tried to re-explain. But reading your last remark it was a waste of time.

[Tony N]

"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."

peacemaker

The above is misquoted. It is past tense in the original and is talking about the Egyptian army of their horses and riders thrown into the Sea of Weeds after the Israelites crossed:

Exo 15:1  Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

Exo 15:21  And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

We are talking about the lake of fire being death, not a sea of weeds.

[Tony N]

Hi Tony
   Okay, then perhaps there is a third resurrection that the scriptures make no mention of when the people who are re-dead after the second resurrection are re-ressurected when Christ returns all to God so that God may be all in all. I get it.

I think it is possible you are wrong.

Let's take this with baby steps.

There are not three resurrections. For there to be three resurrections there would have to be three deaths for the individual.

Here it is as plain as I can make it.

• humanity dies
• humanity resurrected to GWT

• Humanity dies again = 2nd death
• Humanity resurrected again to immortality

That is two deaths and two resurrections.

Now then, would you please explain why you think, under this paradigm, there are three resurrections?

[Molly]

Now then, would you please explain why you think, under this paradigm, there are three resurrections?

Not three resurrections for each person--but events where groups of people are resurrected.

First resurrection--the saints to rule with Christ in the millenium.

Second resurrection--the GWT where everyone else is resurrected at the end of the millenium.

Third resurrection?--if you say the second group are punished with death, are they resurrected again at some point?  what scripture?

[eaglesway]

In your paradigm


First resurrection- those who are Christs at His coming

Second resurrection- All the remaining dead to the GWT

Third resurrection- Those who re-entered death at GWT when Christ returns all to the Father that God may be all in all

[Tony N]

Notice, it says "everyone" not "everything." "sinful nature" is a thing, not a person.

I see that differently. I, a person, am a combination of things.
A thing (piece of meat), "life-force" , personality (good part and parts)
Plus as I ended my previous post I'm talking about the complete man being cast in LoF. Meaning exactly as complete I am right now typing this message. And very aware of things.

O.K. let's take this with baby steps.

You say you are a combination of things. I say that combination of things which makes up the whole person is what that person is. John, in his revelation did not say "parts of a person are to be cast into the lake of fire which is a lifeless condition."

Rev 13:8 And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."

Notice, it says "everyone" not "everything." "sinful nature" is a thing, not a person.

So are you now going to make "ALL WHO are dwelling on the earth EVERYONE whose name is not found written in the scroll of life" to just be parts of those people? I can just see them before the GWT:
Bill Clinton: Well Lord, it wasn't really me worshipping that beast. You know Yourself we are made up of parts. It was just a certain part of me that did it. So can't you just take that part and cast it into the LoF?

"God will have ALL MANKIND to be saved" will now, according to WW, not really mean "all mankind" since it doesn't in Revelation 13:8 but just parts of mankind.

WW, do you see where your sophistry is heading?

WW, only in a Clintonesque theology would just parts of a person be cast into the second death. That is so beyond what John wrote it boggles the mind.

For WW who said "I (WW) never said they are lifeless" he must conclude the "lake of fire is a second life."

[Molly]

By now you should know I never said they are lifeless.

I think the burning bush of Moses might be a good example of the lake of fire.  The bush is in flames but not consumed--that is, it is apparently unhurt by the flames.  The bush isn't screaming in pain, turning black, turning to dust, --to all appearances, it looks untouched by the flames.

The LORD speaks to Moses out of the flames.

So, that would lead me to think that any 'torment' is emotional in nature and perhaps even self induced--as happens to Moses in the presence of the flames [you want me to do what? I can't do that.]--but what happens to Moses, a murderer on the lam, as a result of this encounter?

Only good.

[eaglesway]

I think the burning bush of Moses might be a good example of the lake of fire.  The bush is in flames but not consumed--that is, it is apparently unhurt by the flames.  The bush isn't screaming in pain, turning black, turning to dust, --to all appearances, it looks untouched by the flames.

The LORD speaks to Moses out of the flames.

So, that would lead me to think that any 'torment' is emotional in nature and perhaps even self induced--as happens to Moses in the presence of the flames [you want me to do what? I can't do that.]--but what happens to Moses, a murderer on the lam, as a result of this encounter?

Only good.

:thumbsup:

[Tony N]

By now you should know I never said they are lifeless.

I think the burning bush of Moses might be a good example of the lake of fire.  The bush is in flames but not consumed--that is, it is apparently unhurt by the flames.  The bush isn't screaming in pain, turning black, turning to dust, --to all appearances, it looks untouched by the flames.

The LORD speaks to Moses out of the flames.

So, that would lead me to think that any 'torment' is emotional in nature and perhaps even self induced--as happens to Moses in the presence of the flames [you want me to do what? I can't do that.]--but what happens to Moses, a murderer on the lam, as a result of this encounter?

Only good.

:thumbdown:
Problem with your scenario: the fire of the burning bush was not called "death."

[Molly]

John, in his revelation did not say "parts of a person are to be cast into the lake of fire which is a lifeless condition."

Tony, these people who are resurrected for the GWT, don't you think they would have the resurrected body that we see with Christ when he appears to the disciples?  Isn't this a different body--by definition--than the one we have now?

If that's the case, how do we know what would happen to this type of body in fire?  Isn't it possible that death might mean something else to such a body?  Could the resurrected body of Christ be 'killed'--as in, annihilated?  Probably not, but it could be like the burning bush, in flames but not consumed.

I don't think the church has completely made up the classical notion of hell--although they seem to have used quite a bit of imagination in describing it.  Wouldn't aionios separation from God be [a type of] death [to an immortal being]?

And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

--2 Thess 1:9

[Tony N]

In your paradigm


First resurrection- those who are Christs at His coming

Second resurrection- All the remaining dead to the GWT

Third resurrection- Those who re-entered death at GWT when Christ returns all to the Father that God may be all in all

And you see a problem with that?

[Tony N]

John, in his revelation did not say "parts of a person are to be cast into the lake of fire which is a lifeless condition."

Tony, these people who are resurrected for the GWT, don't you think they would have the resurrected body that we see with Christ when he appears to the disciples?  Isn't this a different body--by definition--then the one we have now?

No. They are not vivified or given immortality nor incorruption at this point when they are resurrected to stand before the GWT. Christ is the firstfruit of vivification then they that are Christ's, THEN the consummation when the third group is vifified which would be the group in the 2nd death. The 3rd group gets vifified when Christ quits reigning, all sovereignty, authority and power is anulled and death abolished (see 1 Corinthians 15:22-28).

Molly querried: Wouldn't aionios separation from God be [a type of] death [to an immortal being]?

And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.--2 Thess 1:9

The eonian destruction  away from the presence of the Lord is not speaking of happenning to immortal beings. It is referenced to those mortals who were harrassing the Thessalonians.

[WhiteWings]

Notice, it says "everyone" not "everything." "sinful nature" is a thing, not a person.

But very much part of the person.

So are you now going to make "ALL WHO are dwelling on the earth EVERYONE whose name is not found written in the scroll of life" to just be parts of those people? I can just see them before the GWT:

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO and no :winkgrin:
I say people are made up of parts. Just as a body is made from parts. Arms, feet, legs, etc


B

ill Clinton: Well Lord, it wasn't really me worshipping that beast. You know Yourself we are made up of parts. It was just a certain part of me that did it. So can't you just take that part and cast it into the LoF?

"God will have ALL MANKIND to be saved" will now, according to WW, not really mean "all mankind" since it doesn't in Revelation 13:8 but just parts of mankind.

WW, do you see where your sophistry is heading?

I can see where you interpretation of it is leading....

For WW who said "I (WW) never said they are lifeless" he must conclude the "lake of fire is a second life."

NO NO NO. A explained that so often by now.
Yes the person is alive. But the sinner part/habits/thoughts/whatever you like to called get teached out

BTW you didn't answer my question: When will the sinner become a saint?

[eaglesway]

Hi Tony,

I personally have no problem with it. I just disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures on a few points. You know, as we have been discussing previously. :winkgrin:

[Tony N]

WW asked: BTW you didn't answer my question: When will the sinner become a saint?

If you read my former posts you would see I did answer this before. But I will answer it again.

Those dead, who are not in the book of life, who are in death, the second death, are not saints at that point in time. They will be made righteous and have their lives justified (Romans 5:18,19; and be given immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15) only when the death they are in is abolished.

When is the abolishment of the death they will be in? It will take place when Christ quits reigning, and all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled. Christ reigns through the new earth so these people can't be made saints then. Sovereignties, authorities and power are still in force on the new earth so they can't be made saints then. Those in the 2nd death must wait for Christ to quit reigning and sovereignties, authorities and powers and death to be abolished. That happens at the end of the eons.