The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[micah7:9]

Found this by Bro. Prinzing it is not that long

The following words by Ray Prinzing give fresh insight into this wonderful truth: "The offence of the first Adam brought all men under the sentence of death for sin. Hence presently our mortal bodies are in a state of dying, while our minds need to be freed from minding the things of the flesh, to mind the things of the Spirit. The act of disobedience of Adam brought forth death. Now, the obedience and work of righteousness of the last Adam also brings forth a death for every man. The question arises, Is the SECOND DEATH the same kind of death as the first? Many people think that it is a repetition of the first, and that the results are the same, while its action is more severe and cruel, and destructive, being by fire. And some Christians add very sorrowfully, 'and from this second death there is no resurrection, it is an endless torment in agony,' BUT NOT SO! For God's seconds are never duplicates of the first, they are always better, higher, and more powerful than the firsts, and used to counter-balance all the action of the firsts, and MUCH MORE - He always saves the best until last.
"All Bible statements prove that the two deaths are absolutely UNLIKE, and that the two are opposite and antagonistic. The second death undoes all the work of the first death in the same manner that the last Adam undid all the work of the first Adam. Not to nullify the purpose being wrought out by the plan of God in the firsts, but to bring a release from the firsts in a MUCH MORE manner of majesty and glory and power and scope of coverage, into the greater and glorious things of God. Creation was made subject to vanity for a purpose! Sin was allowed for wise ends, but when those ends have been secured it will have to cease to exist. The purpose is not nullified, but the means whereby the purpose has been executed shall be done away. Discipline is a means to an end, but not an end in itself, it leads up to the 'AFTERWARDS YIELDING THE PEACEABLE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.'
"The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and lives unto God, and so fulfills all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.
"Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' - 'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9,14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more - not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality - but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it - only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, He is destroying the first death with the second death!
"All the Crucifixion, our identification with the cross of Christ, must first be accepted by faith as a fact, and then the working of it in and through us is a process. If it is done now, through our yieldedness to the call and the claims of Christ upon us, we won't have to face it later, in what is called 'the lake of fire,' which is the second death. The passing through that lake of divine purification will thoroughly purge out the last remaining fragments of the rebellion and waywardness of man, till the mystery of iniquity is no more, and then the carnal mind being abolished, death is no more" -end quote.

[Zeek]

The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.

So would you say that it is "good" to be "hurt" of the second death; as that is the process of going from mortality to immortality; from "carnal mind to spiritual mind", to "peace".  To be cleansed, wouldn't you have needed to be "hurt" by it; in order to have all the impurities "burned" out?

[Zeek]

Jer 23:19  Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

Jer 23:20  The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

Jer 23:21  I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

Jer 23:24  Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Jer 23:29  Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Jer 23:34  And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.

Jer 23:36  And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.

Jer 23:39  Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Rom 10:11  For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Psa 9:10  And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.



Was this the path for all of us that have moved from "death to life"?  for believers?  a shame that won't be forgotten?

[WhiteWings]

WW replied: I'll try to keep this as neutral as possible  :winkgrin:
The 5 cities are now believed to be in the dead sea according to some researchers.
Also according to some researchers the dead sea was also linked to fire at Jesus age.

Tony's reply: Sources for those researchers? And, just curious  :dontknow: what do you mean? Do you mean some researchers said that fire destroyed those cities of the dead sea?  :dontknow:

Summary: The whole dead sea is on a fault line. During Sodom things went very wrong. Seismic activity. Tarpits exploded. The earth literally opened and teh whole area sunk. The cities sunk into the sea. In the whole area millions of marble sized almost pure sulphur/brimstone balls can be found.
Also a volcano in/under the sea. It's said it was still smoking during Jesus time.
So scholars (also secular) agree on the destruction of sodom.

A more correct translation is lake of THE fire - http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7579.msg96242#new

WW wrote: Just like Jesus used the literal Gehenna to explain spiritual affairs; He did the same with LoF.

Tony's reply: Really?  :dontknow: I can't find any verse where Jesus used the lake of fire to explain spiritual affairs.

WW continues: (people also used the dead sea as a garbage dump)

Tony's reply: I think you mean the Jerusalemites used Gehenna as a garbage dump.

No. Both.

The New John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:
There seems to be some allusion in the phrase used here, and in the preceding verse, and elsewhere in this book, to the lake Asphaltites, a sulphurous lake, where Sodom and Gomorrah stood, which the Jews call the salt sea, or the bituminous lake; and whatsoever was useless, or rejected, or abominable, or accursed, they used to say, to show their rejection and detestation of it, let it be cast into the sea of salt, or the bituminous lake; thus, for instance,

``any vessels that had on them the image of the sun, or of the moon, or of a dragon "let them cast them into the salt sea", or bituminous lake*."

[WhiteWings]

How then did the second death "purify" those in Christ?  Seems to me, one should be singed, burned in order to be purified.  So LOF would "have power" over one; in order to be purfied.

When I've asked others before; they say "it doesn't burn them" because the saints fire and brimstone already occurred earlier;--->first death.

I don't see first and second death as the same thing, just at different times.  

fire and brimstone seems to me to be connected to "unrighteous", not the "righteous".  I don't see anywhere where brimstone is ever used in the bible as a "purifier" to make one a "believer".  

First of all noone is pure so all need a bit of cleaning I guess.
The temple was purified with brimstone.
What exactly is cleaning? If I wash my flithy clothes I have 2 things.
Clean clothes and dirt. The whole idea of washing them is separating the dirt from the clean clothes. Hows that for a definition?  :bgdance:
Just thinking out loud here.... could cleaning a spirit be just the same? The spirit never really was an unbeliever. It just got poluted/put to sleep with satan's lies.
:dontknow: :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.

So would you say that it is "good" to be "hurt" of the second death; as that is the process of going from mortality to immortality; from "carnal mind to spiritual mind", to "peace".  To be cleansed, wouldn't you have needed to be "hurt" by it; in order to have all the impurities "burned" out?

Everybody will be salted with fire. Salt is good.... ?

[micah7:9]

The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.

So would you say that it is "good" to be "hurt" of the second death; as that is the process of going from mortality to immortality; from "carnal mind to spiritual mind", to "peace".  To be cleansed, wouldn't you have needed to be "hurt" by it; in order to have all the impurities "burned" out?

Rev 2:11  He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: He who is overcoming may not be injured of the second death.

[eaglesway]

IMO, the second death does not purify believers. No one who believes, and then continues in faith to the end, will be hurt of the second death. Those who believe in Christ have their hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience(consciousness) and their bodies washed with pure water- have been sanctified by the washing of the water of the word, having received the word implanted which is able to save their souls. "Blessed is the one unto whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, whose sin is forgiven". Their is a clear separation before anyone is cast into the LOF. Even if you see that a a type- the separation is still there. In Romans Ch 1&2 we also read that at the GWT when God judges the secrets of mens hearts by Christ Jesus, their conscience will either excuse or accuse them. I believe our own conscience may be the books we will be judged out of- the record of our deeds and thoughts..."having our hearts sprinkled clean"...."if any man sin we have a propitiation for that sin"....."confess your faults one to another and pray for one another"...."If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"....."all that is brought to light becomes light".


Rev 1:16  and having in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword is proceeding, and his countenance is as the sun shining in its might.(and we all with unveiled face beholding....)

The sword brings exposure(truth in the inner man) confession brings cleansing(And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins).


Psa 32:5  I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

I am He who tries the reigns and the hearts, I will judge everyone by their deeds

May we be diligent, then, to enter into that rest, that no one in the same example of the unbelief may fall, for the reckoning(gr. logos) of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart; and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and open to His eyes--with whom is our reckoning(logos).
(Heb 4:11-13)

of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it , because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;
(1Co 3:13)

Rev 2:16  `Reform! and if not, I come to thee quickly(piercing to the dividing asunder), and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth(making manifest).

Job 41:1  Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook(From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, the heart of man is deceitful & perverse, who can know it)? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down(The tongue is a world of evil set on fire by Gehenna)?

Isa 27:1  In that day(Today, if you Hear His voice) the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword(the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart) shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent(dividing asunder soul & spirit), even leviathan that crooked serpent(piercing to the dividing asunder); and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea(making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart....you desire truth in the inner man, a broken and a contrite heart O God you will not cast out).


Isa 27:2  In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine(If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin).

Isa 27:3  I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day(For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish)
.

Isa 27:4  Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together(In whom also we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined by Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will).

Isa 27:5  Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me(If you abide in me and I abide in you you shall bear fruit and your fruit shall remain).

Isa 27:6  He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit (But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace).

Isa 27:7  Hath he smitten him, as he smote those that smote him(Who shall bring a charge against God's elect)? or is he slain according to the slaughter of them that are slain by him(He that overcomes I will give to escape the hour of tribulation that is to come upon all those that dwell on the earth)?

[Zeek]

IMO, the second death does not purify believers. No one who believes, and then continues in faith to the end, will be hurt of the second death. Those who believe in Christ have their hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience(consciousness) and their bodies washed with pure water- have been sanctified by the washing of the water of the word, having received the word implanted which is able to save their souls. "Blessed is the one unto whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, whose sin is forgiven". Their is a clear separation before anyone is cast into the LOF. Even if you see that a a type- the separation is still there. In Romans Ch 1&2 we also read that at the GWT when God judges the secrets of mens hearts by Christ Jesus, their conscience will either excuse or accuse them. I believe our own conscience may be the books we will be judged out of- the record of our deeds and thoughts..."having our hearts sprinkled clean"...."if any man sin we have a propitiation for that sin"....."confess your faults one to another and pray for one another"...."If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"....."all that is brought to light becomes light".


Rev 1:16  and having in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword is proceeding, and his countenance is as the sun shining in its might.(and we all with unveiled face beholding....)

The sword brings exposure(truth in the inner man) confession brings cleansing(And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins).


Psa 32:5  I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

I am He who tries the reigns and the hearts, I will judge everyone by their deeds

May we be diligent, then, to enter into that rest, that no one in the same example of the unbelief may fall, for the reckoning(gr. logos) of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart; and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and open to His eyes--with whom is our reckoning(logos).
(Heb 4:11-13)

of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it , because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;
(1Co 3:13)

Rev 2:16  `Reform! and if not, I come to thee quickly(piercing to the dividing asunder), and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth(making manifest).

Job 41:1  Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook(From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, the heart of man is deceitful & perverse, who can know it)? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down(The tongue is a world of evil set on fire by Gehenna)?

Isa 27:1  In that day(Today, if you Hear His voice) the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword(the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart) shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent(dividing asunder soul & spirit), even leviathan that crooked serpent(piercing to the dividing asunder); and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea(making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart....you desire truth in the inner man, a broken and a contrite heart O God you will not cast out).


Isa 27:2  In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine(If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin).

Isa 27:3  I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day(For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish)
.

Isa 27:4  Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together(In whom also we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined by Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will).

Isa 27:5  Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me(If you abide in me and I abide in you you shall bear fruit and your fruit shall remain).

Isa 27:6  He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit (But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace).

Isa 27:7  Hath he smitten him, as he smote those that smote him(Who shall bring a charge against God's elect)? or is he slain according to the slaughter of them that are slain by him(He that overcomes I will give to escape the hour of tribulation that is to come upon all those that dwell on the earth)?

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

The spirit never really was an unbeliever. It just got poluted/put to sleep with satan's lies.

...ye shall be as gods

--Gen 3



Psalm 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

[micah7:9]

The spirit never really was an unbeliever. It just got poluted/put to sleep with satan's lies.

...ye shall be as gods

--Gen 3



Psalm 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Psa 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.

[Molly]

The spirit never really was an unbeliever. It just got poluted/put to sleep with satan's lies.

...ye shall be as gods

--Gen 3



Psalm 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Psa 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.

Yes, but satan told them they wouldn't die if they ate from the tree.  So what do we end up with?  Men who want to be God.  But they are gods who die.


Matthew 10:24
The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

[micah7:9]

The spirit never really was an unbeliever. It just got poluted/put to sleep with satan's lies.

...ye shall be as gods

--Gen 3



Psalm 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Psa 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.

Yes, but satan told them they wouldn't die if they ate from the tree.  So what do we end up with?  Men who want to be God.  But they are gods who die.


Matthew 10:24
The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

:thumbsup:

[Tony N]

So, getting back to what the lake of fire actually is: death, we must come to the conclusion that the lake of fire is not: life.

Also, the lake burning with fire and sulphur is death: Rev 21:8 ". . . the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

The term "lake of fire and sulphur" is a complete symbol. It is not "lake of fire and God" because God is not death but is life.

Death is the absence of life. Just my  :2c:

[Cardinal]

Found this by Bro. Prinzing it is not that long

The following words by Ray Prinzing give fresh insight into this wonderful truth: "The offence of the first Adam brought all men under the sentence of death for sin. Hence presently our mortal bodies are in a state of dying, while our minds need to be freed from minding the things of the flesh, to mind the things of the Spirit. The act of disobedience of Adam brought forth death. Now, the obedience and work of righteousness of the last Adam also brings forth a death for every man. The question arises, Is the SECOND DEATH the same kind of death as the first? Many people think that it is a repetition of the first, and that the results are the same, while its action is more severe and cruel, and destructive, being by fire. And some Christians add very sorrowfully, 'and from this second death there is no resurrection, it is an endless torment in agony,' BUT NOT SO! For God's seconds are never duplicates of the first, they are always better, higher, and more powerful than the firsts, and used to counter-balance all the action of the firsts, and MUCH MORE - He always saves the best until last.
"All Bible statements prove that the two deaths are absolutely UNLIKE, and that the two are opposite and antagonistic. The second death undoes all the work of the first death in the same manner that the last Adam undid all the work of the first Adam. Not to nullify the purpose being wrought out by the plan of God in the firsts, but to bring a release from the firsts in a MUCH MORE manner of majesty and glory and power and scope of coverage, into the greater and glorious things of God. Creation was made subject to vanity for a purpose! Sin was allowed for wise ends, but when those ends have been secured it will have to cease to exist. The purpose is not nullified, but the means whereby the purpose has been executed shall be done away. Discipline is a means to an end, but not an end in itself, it leads up to the 'AFTERWARDS YIELDING THE PEACEABLE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.'
"The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and lives unto God, and so fulfills all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.
"Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' - 'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9,14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more - not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality - but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it - only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, He is destroying the first death with the second death!
"All the Crucifixion, our identification with the cross of Christ, must first be accepted by faith as a fact, and then the working of it in and through us is a process. If it is done now, through our yieldedness to the call and the claims of Christ upon us, we won't have to face it later, in what is called 'the lake of fire,' which is the second death. The passing through that lake of divine purification will thoroughly purge out the last remaining fragments of the rebellion and waywardness of man, till the mystery of iniquity is no more, and then the carnal mind being abolished, death is no more" -end quote.

:cloud9:  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

The question arises, Is the SECOND DEATH the same kind of death as the first?

"All Bible statements prove that the two deaths are absolutely UNLIKE, and that the two are opposite and antagonistic.

The passing through that lake of divine purification will thoroughly purge out the last remaining fragments of the rebellion and waywardness of man, till the mystery of iniquity is no more, and then the carnal mind being abolished, death is no more"

Yep. That sounds like logical and Biblically supported view :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

To be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

This is offered in peaceful, loving disagreement :o)

Generic claims like "all bible statements prove" do not merit consideration since all bible statements are not being listed and some bible statements could be understood differently than your personal interpretation declares. The very use of the same word "death" to describe both experiences implies some similarity, even if we do not agree as to the nature of that similarity. I may not agree in entirety with Tony's definition of death, but it seems to me that there are not that many bible statements about it and the one we have uses the word second "death" to describe the experience. These are God's words, He is not confused, He describes the LOF as the second "death" for some reason. Hmmmm.

[Pierac]

Ok Tony,

I got a link for you. It's just a page or so...
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/fire.htm
Not sure if you will like it or not, but a quick read all the same.
Paul

The writer states this from the link you provided. I will put the quote in italics so as to demarcate it from my reply:
To compare the terms "fire and brimstone" (or: burning sulfur) here with that in the book of Rev., let's read it from the LXX (the Greek version of the OT): "And the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah (theion) and fire from the Lord from out of the midst of heaven." I give here the Gr. word often translated "brimstone," or "sulfur," for you to note its spelling. This word is actually the neuter form of (theios) which means: Deity. With the definite article (the) before it, it means "the Divine nature." The same words are in the Greek text of Rev. 19:20 where we read of "the lake (or: pond) of the Fire (a figure of God) continuously burning within [the] Deity (theion)." So if it's the same as that which killed those of Sodom and Gomorrah, what will it do to those who take the mark of the beast? I suggest that it will kill them. But what does this mean?

Well, it's called "the second death"

The fire and sulphur which rained down on Sodom was not the second death. Those Sodomites did not enter into the lake of fire. That only takes place after the Great White Throne judgment.

Jesus said:
Luk 17:29 Yet on the day in which Lot came out from Sodom, fire and sulphur [theion] rains from heaven and destroys them all."
He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur.

Tony Tony, focus!

This author is not writing about the second death, he is writing about the Fire of God!

Your implanting the "second death"  into his paper.

You said... "He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur!  Yet, I read in your very own response by quoting him... he actually did!

I give here the Greek word often translated "brimstone," or "sulfur," for you to note its spelling. This word is actually the neuter form of (theios) which means: Deity. With the definite article (the) before it, it means "the Divine nature." (See your quote above)

I offered this link because I though you may enjoy it! I never meant it to be a contradiction to your beliefs!  From my point of view your putting down someone who actually leans to wards your beliefs. You may have become too defensive to see? 

Anyway, I read and study a lot and thought you may have liked this guy, I was not offering an opinion, but a gift. :2c:

Peace,
Paul

[Molly]

4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;

--Psalm 23

[Tony N]

To be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

This is offered in peaceful, loving disagreement :o)

Generic claims like "all bible statements prove" do not merit consideration since all bible statements are not being listed and some bible statements could be understood differently than your personal interpretation declares. The very use of the same word "death" to describe both experiences implies some similarity, even if we do not agree as to the nature of that similarity. I may not agree in entirety with Tony's definition of death, but it seems to me that there are not that many bible statements about it and the one we have uses the word second "death" to describe the experience. These are God's words, He is not confused, He describes the LOF as the second "death" for some reason. Hmmmm.

Exactly eaglesway.
What I also found interesting was Ray Prinzing's idea of what the second death means. But it seems to me his reasoning for making that death to be life is wrong. Allow me to explain.
Ray wrote: "God's seconds are never duplicates of the first, they are always better, higher, and more powerful than the firsts, and used to counter-balance all the action of the firsts, and MUCH MORE - He always saves the best until last.

But who is to say this is what John was getting at in his Revelation?
I posted a post in this thread about 2nd things and how they are like the 1st things, i.e. 2nd curtain, 2nd day, 2nd watch etc. None of these things are greater than the first.

All one needs to do is take a look at every second thing in Revelation and note that in no way are the second things greater than the first.

Here, I'll do it for you:

(Rev 2:11)  '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."

(Rev 4:7)  And the first animal is like a lion, and the second animal is like a calf, and the third animal has a face like as a human being, and the fourth animal is like a flying vulture."

(Rev 6:3)  And when It opens the second seal, I hear the second animal saying, "Come!"

(Rev 8:8)  And the second messenger trumpets. And as it were a huge mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood,

(Rev 11:14)  The second woe passed away. Lo! the third woe is coming swiftly!

(Rev 14:8)  And another, a second  messenger, follows, saying, "It falls! It falls! Babylon the great has made all nations drink of the wine of the fury of her prostitution!"

(Rev 16:3)  And the second pours out his bowl into the sea. And it became blood as if of a dead man. And every living soul died which is in the sea.

(Rev 19:3)  And a second  time have they declared, "Hallelujah! And her smoke is ascending for the eons of the eons."

(Rev 20:6)  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."

(Rev 20:14)  And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second  death-the lake of fire.

(Rev 21:8)  Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

(Rev 21:19)  The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with every precious stone, the first foundation with jasper, the second lapis lazuli, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald,

Not one of these cases is the second thing greater than the first in John's Revelation so why should the second death be any better than the first?

And just because Paul wrote about the second Adam does not mean John had that in mind when he wrote about the second death.

It is actually a very merciful thing that the lake of fire is death. Rather than torment these people they are put back into an unconscious state like the first death.

Basically what Ray is doing is re-defining what death is.
Whatever it is it surely is not righteousness and peace. No one who was dead to God while alive had righteousness and peace. And no one who was literally dead was, while in death, experiencing righteousness and peace. They were just oblivious to such things.

Ray wrote: "It is by death that death is rendered powerless"

This too is incorrect. It is by giving those in the death state immortality and incorruption that death is rendered powerless. The only way death is to be abolished is by abolishing it with life. That is what 1 Corinthians 15 is all about.

Remember, those not found in the book of life are cast back into death and since death is the absence of life, we know that these people are not living some sort of life while in death.

At least these are my own thoughts on this subject. It is possible I am right.  :laughing7:

[eaglesway]

I see your train of logic. I have read some good things by bro Ray, but I am wary of anything that implies systematic similarity. It blocks open minded examination. Things like "all seconds are greater than firsts" or "all bible statements prove" require systematic acceptance of facts that need individual examination. There are some statements about the LOF that indicate to me a level of consciousness("torment day and night", for instance). I am not sure I have understood your perspective correctly- but it seems to me that you are saying there is no consciousness in the second death. I am not sure I can see that scripturally. Also, although I cannot directly prove it by literal verse, I think Gehenna  is a typological symbol for the LOF. But at any rate, I prefer references to scripture as opposed to blanket statements. For instance, even if many seconds are greater than firsts, this does not mean I should accet as a proof the staement ALL seconds are greater than firsts. Someone might say the second coming of Christ is greater than the first, but I would disagree,

Heb 9:26  Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

This would indicate that the first coming of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world, was the greatest, indeed even the core of all the mind of God in all creation, destruction and restoration.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
(1Pe 1:17-23)

Of course, above all these truths is the truth that the grace of God teaches us to love one another, so peace, my brother, John

[micah7:9]

What you do not accept is that these revelations are happening now, in, those who are hearing. These "seconds"  as you point out, are not known how they are working in the indivdual overcomer.  The workings maybe a greater in each  overcomer or less as is needed. This God fire as I believe it is, works in each individual as is needed.
The Gehenna fire that Jesus taught the disciples they must learn from, and be judged by, worked differently in each vessel, each disciple had different qualities. I do believe it is God's Fire.

[Tony N]

There are some statements about the LOF that indicate to me a level of consciousness("torment day and night", for instance). I am not sure I have understood your perspective correctly- but it seems to me that you are saying there is no consciousness in the second death. I am not sure I can see that scripturally.

I hope you don't mind me concentrating on your statement above to the exclusion of the rest of your fine post.

In Revelation 14:11 this was concerning the destruction of Babylon in a day. It is my understanding that "they are having no rest night or day, those worshipping the wild beast" is that this is while they are living. It is after they are killed that "the fumes of their torment is ascending for the eons of the eons."

However, Satan, the beast and false prophet is tormented night and day in the lake of fire for the eons of the eons.

For humans not written in the book of life it is never said to be torment but death.

[Tony N]

What you do not accept is that these revelations are happening now, in, those who are hearing. These "seconds"  as you point out, are not known how they are working in the indivdual overcomer.  The workings maybe a greater in each  overcomer or less as is needed. This God fire as I believe it is, works in each individual as is needed.
The Gehenna fire that Jesus taught the disciples they must learn from, and be judged by, worked differently in each vessel, each disciple had different qualities. I do believe it is God's Fire.

Hi micah, you are correct. I do not accept that these revelations are happening now. They are yet future. The thousand year reign has not begun yet in Revelation. The New Earth has not come yet nor have the bowls been poured out on the earth and on and on.

BTW, Jesus warned the Jews about a literal Gehenna which will surely be part of the millennial reign of Christ. Gehenna was used by Christ as a threat to the people that if they do something bad enough they will end up in that trash dump in an unburried condition.

[Tony N]

Ok Tony,

I got a link for you. It's just a page or so...
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/fire.htm
Not sure if you will like it or not, but a quick read all the same.
Paul

The writer states this from the link you provided. I will put the quote in italics so as to demarcate it from my reply:
To compare the terms "fire and brimstone" (or: burning sulfur) here with that in the book of Rev., let's read it from the LXX (the Greek version of the OT): "And the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah (theion) and fire from the Lord from out of the midst of heaven." I give here the Gr. word often translated "brimstone," or "sulfur," for you to note its spelling. This word is actually the neuter form of (theios) which means: Deity. With the definite article (the) before it, it means "the Divine nature." The same words are in the Greek text of Rev. 19:20 where we read of "the lake (or: pond) of the Fire (a figure of God) continuously burning within [the] Deity (theion)." So if it's the same as that which killed those of Sodom and Gomorrah, what will it do to those who take the mark of the beast? I suggest that it will kill them. But what does this mean?

Well, it's called "the second death"

The fire and sulphur which rained down on Sodom was not the second death. Those Sodomites did not enter into the lake of fire. That only takes place after the Great White Throne judgment.

Jesus said:
Luk 17:29 Yet on the day in which Lot came out from Sodom, fire and sulphur [theion] rains from heaven and destroys them all."
He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur.

Tony Tony, focus!

This author is not writing about the second death, he is writing about the Fire of God!

Your implanting the "second death"  into his paper.

You said... "He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur!  Yet, I read in your very own response by quoting him... he actually did!

I give here the Greek word often translated "brimstone," or "sulfur," for you to note its spelling. This word is actually the neuter form of (theios) which means: Deity. With the definite article (the) before it, it means "the Divine nature." (See your quote above)

I offered this link because I though you may enjoy it! I never meant it to be a contradiction to your beliefs!  From my point of view your putting down someone who actually leans to wards your beliefs. You may have become too defensive to see?  

Anyway, I read and study a lot and thought you may have liked this guy, I was not offering an opinion, but a gift. :2c:

Peace,
Paul

Paul,
The person in the link you posted was writing about Sodom and Gomorrah and fire and brimstone then said "it's called the second death." I might have improperly joined the two things. If so, I am sorry. I didn't mean to upset you.

BTW, theotes is never translated "Deity" is it? At least not in the Concordant Literal. It is always "sulphur" and once "Divine." I think the reason sulphur has divine connotations is maybe it was used in religions for their divine things?

Anyway, sorry if I misunderstood what you were getting at. I just thought the writer was leading from the fire and sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah and then saying it was the lake of fire.