The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[jabcat]

Thanks micah.  What do you think about death and the grave's involvement - being cast into it?  Death and the grave cast into judgment?  Or using another part of your definition, cast into "a decision made" about them?

[Molly]

why is it a lake [pond]--such a small place--if so many people are going to end up there?  why not 'the ocean of fire'?   also, the implication of a harbor or haven implies a safe place, although even harbors can get nasty under certain conditions--but generally a boat will pull into a harbor for safety.

and, why not the canyon of fire or the desert of fire?  why water?

we have the gulf of fire going on now--just the top layer burns.

[eaglesway]

When it says, "This is the second death", it may not mean the lake of fire is the second death in itself. It may mean the lake of fire is effecting the second death upon all that are cast into it.
In other words

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The "having their part in" in experiencing the second judgment, being a death experience of another kind. DEATH BEING A TERMINATION OF THE PURSUIT OF ONES OWN WILL. The second death may be a termination of another sort, bringing one to the end of ones own will by the penetrating light (light is fire to darkness 1 Cor 3:13) of the Day.

In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
(Isa 27:1-2)

Rev 1:16  And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:14-16)

It is written that everything that is brought to the light becomes light. The fire/light/day will consume the hiding places, the veils, the towers, the strongholds, the rationals of the wisdom from below that is earthly sensual, demonic. It is given man once to die, then judgment. The eyes of Christ are as flames of fire in John's vision, and the writer of Hebrews says all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. He has a sword coming out of His mouth and that sword divides asunder soul and spirit and makes manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Maybe the lake of fire is a specific experience of krisis- discernment- exposure that will end in the bowing of the knee and the confession of the tongue in those who are purged within it. The love of God like a blow torch upon the darkness till all is light and God, who is light and who is a consuming fire, and who is love- becomes all in all as the adversaries crumble n the presence of His awesomeness.

I am just presenting this as food for thought, not as a doctrine.

[gregoryfl]

You can also go back to the first time it is written about in Daniel 7.

Ron

Where in Daniel 7? I must have overlooked it or I am reading it wrong. Thanks

I will provide what I see to be the same event being written about, according to topic. Here is Daniel's account:

ancient of days sat: his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, and its wheels burning fire.
Dan 7:10  A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousands of thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11  I saw at that time because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke; I saw even until the beast was slain, and its body destroyed, and it was given to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12  As for the rest of the animals, their dominion was taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

And now here is John's account:

Rev 19:20  The beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight, with which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of firethat burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21  The rest were killed with the sword of him who sat on the horse, the sword which came forth out of his mouth. All the birds were filled with their flesh...

Rev 20:12  I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14  Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

The only time in scripture that reference is made to books used for judgment before a throne is in these 2 places, which leads me to believe Daniel and John are seeing the same event, with different nuances. One thing I note is that the fire into which the beast is thrown in Daniel's account has it's source from God himself. I surmise it is possible that God, as a consuming fire, is the source of the lake of fire into which anything not of God gets consumed, and anything which is of God remains.

Ron

Also, as an aside, I also find it interesting that the two statements concerning believers and the second death, namely, that it has no power over them (Rev 20:6) and that it does not hurt them (Rev 2:11), is only found in one other place in scripture, in Daniel's account of the 3 Hebrews thrown into the fire heated 7 times hotter than normal. They are said also to not be hurt by the fire (Dan 3:25), and that it did not have power over them (Dan 3:27). Thus I see through making these thematic connections that Daniel should be read along with Revelation as each compliments the other and shows things concerning the nature of the lake of fire.

[micah7:9]

Thanks micah.  What do you think about death and the grave's involvement - being cast into it?  Death and the grave cast into judgment?  Or using another part of your definition, cast into "a decision made" about them?

Death only has exsitence in who was alive, death is in the grave; so when one goes the other follows, I would say. And Peter said that judgment (decsions make) begin in the house of God. If we are alive in Him then we had to die, or as it reads in Gen.2:17 "dying thou dost die" and I like how Bob Dylan said it as well."if you aint busy being born, your busy dying."
Rom 8:13  for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;
I just believe that should I gain any understanding at all.....it is Spirit that is my "literal."

[Tony N]

As soon as it fits with the topic - not to sidetrack the discussion, but dovetail into it - Tony, micah, anyone, how do you think scripture defines the second death?  Since the LOF is the second death, what does it look like and what exactly would you say it accomplishes?  "Just" no more death, i.e., "eternity", or something else connected to that?

(I've come to believe the process is spiritual, yet has both spiritual AND literal results - but I'd probably have a hard time explaining it in great detail.)   :thinking:

The second death cannot stand for another metaphor because it is the explanation of the first figure "the lake of fire." So whatever death is, that is what it is. Death is the complete cessation of all life.

The second curtain, the second day, the second week, the second hour; these are literally what they are.

So since the first death is a literal death in which there is a complete absence of life, the second death is a literal death in which there is a complete absence of life.

[jabcat]

I may be getting this convoluted, but here goes.  Death and the grave are thrown into (another/second) death (LOF).  I'm having trouble getting my mind around that  :mblush:. 

Wouldn't that be the death of death? :scratchhead:

[Zeek]

I may be getting this convoluted, but here goes.  Death and the grave are thrown into (another/second) death (LOF).  I'm having trouble getting my mind around that  :mblush:. 

Wouldn't that be the death of death? :scratchhead:

2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

the death of covenental death.  The END. 

[jabcat]

Hi Zeek.  If I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, let me know.  Are you saying you believe the LOF already happened?  That the LOF was the end of basically, the age of law?   Thanks.

P.S.  I know there are different views on it...for instance, I believe Brother Willi understands the LOF to be now...

[Zeek]

Hi Zeek.  If I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, let me know.  Are you saying you believe the LOF already happened?  That the LOF was the end of basically, the age of law?   Thanks.

P.S.  I know there are different views on it...for instance, I believe Brother Willi understands the LOF to be now...

My thought is that the death of the Old Covenant creature was the death of death.

The first creation had a place a standing (through types and figures). It however was destined to pass away. Those who were identified as "old creatures" would experience the second death.  Their world came crashing down.

The first death imo, is sin or condemnation.  The power of sin is the law.  A relentless seeking for vindication of life which brought insecurity, and needing to prove something about ones self all the time and low self worth and low self esteem and always comparing ones self with someone else and trying to measure up or down, ECT.

The second death is the ending of the status of the old creature.

IMO, that "creature" did pass away, and we are wakening up to that truth.  

and this process now, can be looked at "inwardly"; but imo not to "bring in the NEW, but to realize what already is TRUTH.  Relationship and love is what it is all about imo;  

imo, there is no more "us versus them", chosen vs. not chosen, sons vs. bastards, "ishmaels vs. isaacs" other than through our own ignorance.   There is UNITY, and we are all in this together; as we realize who we are.  Ther is no "sons to be manifest", as we are all sons; opening our eyes at different times.

Imo, there are 1000's and 1000's of years ahead of humanity to awake to the Truth.  It is a process of discovery and journey through relationship in our new world; not a process of creating a new one.   

[Zeek]

a process of waking up to the futility of thinking that we are separate.   

[micah7:9]

As soon as it fits with the topic - not to sidetrack the discussion, but dovetail into it - Tony, micah, anyone, how do you think scripture defines the second death?  Since the LOF is the second death, what does it look like and what exactly would you say it accomplishes?  "Just" no more death, i.e., "eternity", or something else connected to that?

(I've come to believe the process is spiritual, yet has both spiritual AND literal results - but I'd probably have a hard time explaining it in great detail.)   :thinking:

The second death cannot stand for another metaphor because it is the explanation of the first figure "the lake of fire." So whatever death is, that is what it is. Death is the complete cessation of all life.

The second curtain, the second day, the second week, the second hour; these are literally what they are.

So since the first death is a literal death in which there is a complete absence of life, the second death is a literal death in which there is a complete absence of life.

1Co 15:31

(ASV)  I protest by that glorifying in you, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

(KJV)  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily

(WNT)  I protest, brethren, as surely as I glory over you--which I may justly do in Christ Jesus our Lord--that I die day by day.

(YLT)  Every day do I die, by the glorying of you that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord:

[micah7:9]

I may be getting this convoluted, but here goes.  Death and the grave are thrown into (another/second) death (LOF).  I'm having trouble getting my mind around that  :mblush:. 

Wouldn't that be the death of death? :scratchhead:

Glory!  1Co 15:55  where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

[CHB]

Hi Zeek.  If I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, let me know.  Are you saying you believe the LOF already happened?  That the LOF was the end of basically, the age of law?   Thanks.

P.S.  I know there are different views on it...for instance, I believe Brother Willi understands the LOF to be now...

My thought is that the death of the Old Covenant creature was the death of death.

The first creation had a place a standing (through types and figures). It however was destined to pass away. Those who were identified as "old creatures" would experience the second death.  Their world came crashing down.

The first death imo, is sin or condemnation.  The power of sin is the law.  A relentless seeking for vindication of life which brought insecurity, and needing to prove something about ones self all the time and low self worth and low self esteem and always comparing ones self with someone else and trying to measure up or down, ECT.

The second death is the ending of the status of the old creature.

IMO, that "creature" did pass away, and we are wakening up to that truth.  

and this process now, can be looked at "inwardly"; but imo not to "bring in the NEW, but to realize what already is TRUTH.  Relationship and love is what it is all about imo;  

imo, there is no more "us versus them", chosen vs. not chosen, sons vs. bastards, "ishmaels vs. isaacs" other than through our own ignorance.   There is UNITY, and we are all in this together; as we realize who we are.  Ther is no "sons to be manifest", as we are all sons; opening our eyes at different times.

Imo, there are 1000's and 1000's of years ahead of humanity to awake to the Truth.  It is a process of discovery and journey through relationship in our new world; not a process of creating a new one.   

Hi Zeek,

Sorry, I don't mean to interfer but I have wondered about this also. You said  "the second death is the ending of the old creature". You are not talking about the Adamic creature but the Moses/law creature, am I right? 

Don't we all still have a little of that same creature in us? What I mean is, we all to some extent have a feeling of we are in control of things. We all think that there are things we are, or should be doing to have a right standing with God. Most feel there is some kind of law that we need to do. Isn't this a continuation of the same thing just not on the bigger scale as the law of Moses.  Will not these things need to be burned out of us all?  It isn't just Israel who has a problem with letting go of the old laws, most of humanity are still in it's grip.

I guess what I am saying is, the veil is still there over most peoples eyes.

Hope I explained this well enough so you can understand what I am saying?

The 1000's and 1000's of years ahead is what I am concerned about.

CHB

[jabcat]

I would have some of the same thoughts/questions C.  I believe many things have been fulfilled, some have multiple/ongoing fulfillment, and some future - yet to occur.  Within the constraints of language, I still see the Lake of Fire as a "future event, eminating from God".   :2c:

[Molly]

Jesus, in his day, referred to dead people as 'sleeping,' and living people as 'dead.'

If dead people are just sleeping, they are not dead in the sense of ceasing to exist.  However, it would give that impression.

If living people are dead, they are not alive in the sense of awake and aware.   However, it would give that impression.

So, the reality is not always what it appears, nor is it always manifested.

The ministration of death of the Old Covenant did not always succeed 100 percent in its day,  nor has it gone away 100 percent yet, and people still delight in creating more and more draconian laws in hopes of shutting up the kingdom to everyone possible.

We are still waiting for the seventh trump of Revelation, IMO.


15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

--Rev 11

[CHB]

Here is something I found interesting. Maybe the Dead Sea is where the lof is.   http://bibleencyclopedia.com/lake.htm


jabcat, I agree with you that there are things to happen, I guess I just cannot see that all things are finished because I am still here in the flesh and people are still dying. I believe there will be an end of things as we know it somewhere in the future.

Molly,

Very interesting post, makes sense.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Jesus, in his day, referred to dead people as 'sleeping,' and living people as 'dead.'

He (also) descibed dead people active and alive.
The dead is only about spiritual dead/asleep.

^KJVLuk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

People that burry are quite active. Unless they are sleep-digging...  :grave:

[Cardinal]

jabcat, I agree with you that there are things to happen, I guess I just cannot see that all things are finished because I am still here in the flesh and people are still dying. I believe there will be an end of things as we know it somewhere in the future.

:cloud9: Exactly. The provision is there, but it has not been appropriated, and it won't be appropriated by all before the "end", because He never intended for it to. There is always a firstfruits in every move of God. Blessings....

[Molly]

jabcat, I agree with you that there are things to happen, I guess I just cannot see that all things are finished because I am still here in the flesh and people are still dying. I believe there will be an end of things as we know it somewhere in the future.

:cloud9: Exactly. The provision is there, but it has not been appropriated, and it won't be appropriated by all before the "end", because He never intended for it to. There is always a firstfruits in every move of God. Blessings....

Are we waiting for an 'endtime' firstfruits?  Is that here, yet?   He showed us the whole thing 2000 years ago.  He is the firstfruits of all of it.  But are there others?

Somebody--was it eby?--claimed to be the Elijah ministry announcing them.

[Beloved Servant]

"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" — Charles Pridgeon

DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE!

[micah7:9]

jabcat, I agree with you that there are things to happen, I guess I just cannot see that all things are finished because I am still here in the flesh and people are still dying. I believe there will be an end of things as we know it somewhere in the future.

:cloud9: Exactly. The provision is there, but it has not been appropriated, and it won't be appropriated by all before the "end", because He never intended for it to. There is always a firstfruits in every move of God. Blessings....

Are we waiting for an 'endtime' firstfruits?  Is that here, yet?   He showed us the whole thing 2000 years ago.  He is the firstfruits of all of it.  But are there others?

Somebody--was it eby?--claimed to be the Elijah ministry announcing them.

Right here....Rom 8:16  The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;

Rom 8:17  and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ--if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.
Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us;
Rom 8:19  for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,
Rom 8:21  that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Rom 8:22  for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.
Rom 8:23  And not only so , but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting--the redemption of our body;
Rom 8:24  for in hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for it ?
Rom 8:25  and if what we do not behold we hope for, through continuance we expect it .

[micah7:9]

"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" — Charles Pridgeon

DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE!

:thumbsup: :happy3:  :thumbsup:

[Beloved Servant]

"When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" (Isa. 26:9).
Mat. 12:20 says, "A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory."

[Cardinal]

"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" — Charles Pridgeon

DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE!

:thumbsup: :happy3:  :thumbsup:

:cloud9: I second that, Amen  :thumbsup: