Introducing Myself

[Taffy]

Taffy, what you have done doesn't look good because it isn't good. But you don't care about the latter, only the former – how things look. You are a proud and wretched creature, and you will know it.

Well Thanks for those loving words Paul. :icon_flower:

Hi to you too.

your such a Joy....

Alas, The Proud have their Crown ,Tis the those HIGH places which are made low ,very much associated with the PRIDE of the Flesh AND THE WISDOM ( MIND) BENEATH  , You could consider wretched as a Metaphor for sinful ....OH, wretched Man am I ..who will save me from this BODY of Death ...Still born of FLESH

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The Proud boast from the mouth, lips and Tongue  :mblush: ......or even Maybe, those In HIM Boast of Him :icon_flower:

Ever notice Rich men are often mentioned ,as those who are pharisees?

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked


[/b] ALL METAPHORS FOR SINFUL) 

ya Know paul..this wretched Body of Mine died with HIM, reconciled by his death, saved by His LIFE....

As Im born of HIM ,by the Power of HIS Spirit , Christ the POWER of God , All Things become New...the old man dies along with the Pride of the Fleshy mind, that which is\WAS enmity to HIM, Now being re -newed IN the Mind and heart, tis  the PROMISE of the New Covenant  :icon_flower:


..Blessings
T :icon_flower:

[onlytruth]

hi everyone...
i had an interesting dream...my wife and i were sleeping in our infant daughters room when there was a knock at the door.My wife went to answer the door and when she saw the person at the door, terror filled her eyes.She called me and said he's trying to shoot us,i asked her to step back and went to the door.
I look out and see a man biking back and forth rapidly skidding his tires on our and our neighbours front lawn.I proceed outside realizing he has a gun but continue to approach overcoming the fear.
He reminds me of a plumber(who has't returned my phone calls)but looking at him he is now clean shaven,his sm beard gone.We go around the side of the house to the back and sit by the fence looking at the back wall where an elaborate array of plumbing parts are assembled.
He mentions how his wife has cheated on him(in san francisco) and how hurt he is .I try to console him but we both know the healing process has to happen.He doesn't want to abandon her but he doesn't know yet how it's going to work out.
I believe this dream applies to this thread
In my infancy(loving everyone regardless of words spoken) I get up to see my wife(who's father and mother were part of numerous cults -jw,kabalarian etc,etc.) being shot at(spoken word curses)and backing away from the invitation.
I in turn push forward through the 'unknowing' see the bike person (bike= doing God's work in your own strength,unlike a car) tearing apart what people love to show others.
We talk about the water pipes(channels who God's will flows through) not fully understanding why it looks the way it does!
The plumber who has been wounded by those close to him(perhaps the church body)(free love at a price(city of san fran)).He wants to resolve it but doesn't know how to ...so a hurt heart ,hurts other hearts.
I beleive we have to love, as jesus loved, in spite of ourselves especially the plumber
blessings :icon_king:

[peacemaker]

Are ya Getting the picture   :icon_flower:   

It takes a fuller's soap, and pure water to remove the world's dirt from off our eyes.

"Darkness is night  :secret:  but joy cometh in the morning!"

peacemaker

[sparrow]

hi everyone...
i had an interesting dream...my wife and i were sleeping in our infant daughters room when there was a knock at the door.My wife went to answer the door and when she saw the person at the door, terror filled her eyes.She called me and said he's trying to shoot us,i asked her to step back and went to the door.
I look out and see a man biking back and forth rapidly skidding his tires on our and our neighbours front lawn.I proceed outside realizing he has a gun but continue to approach overcoming the fear.
He reminds me of a plumber(who has't returned my phone calls)but looking at him he is now clean shaven,his sm beard gone.We go around the side of the house to the back and sit by the fence looking at the back wall where an elaborate array of plumbing parts are assembled.
He mentions how his wife has cheated on him(in san francisco) and how hurt he is .I try to console him but we both know the healing process has to happen.He doesn't want to abandon her but he doesn't know yet how it's going to work out.
I believe this dream applies to this thread
In my infancy(loving everyone regardless of words spoken) I get up to see my wife(who's father and mother were part of numerous cults -jw,kabalarian etc,etc.) being shot at(spoken word curses)and backing away from the invitation.
I in turn push forward through the 'unknowing' see the bike person (bike= doing God's work in your own strength,unlike a car) tearing apart what people love to show others.
We talk about the water pipes(channels who God's will flows through) not fully understanding why it looks the way it does!
The plumber who has been wounded by those close to him(perhaps the church body)(free love at a price(city of san fran)).He wants to resolve it but doesn't know how to ...so a hurt heart ,hurts other hearts.
I beleive we have to love, as jesus loved, in spite of ourselves especially the plumber
blessings :icon_king:

wow, that was pretty darn interesting. Good interpreting job there, onlytruth.. :thumbsup:  :icon_flower:

[reFORMer]

(It's late for me again.  I hope to share more here later.  For now, consider the relevance of the following opened from Scripture:)
----------------------------------------

Jesus took no part in any institutions of men. He wasn't born to the priests caste. He was not a Pharisee, nor a Sadducee, nor a Herodian. He didn't try to reform the Roman Empire either. He wasn't a Caesar, nor a senator, nor any earthly king among the political systems of His day. He came as an individual who God was with, like a gem, set in the finding of Israel.  Only He, and not any of His apostles, is said to have disciples.  He said, "I can not do anything of myself." (Jn 5:30)  He said God His father did the miraculous works attesting to the word He brought.

Paul also, in the first "oracles of God" to be written in almost half a millennia, in the first letter written after a man achieved victory over death, says he is an "apostle (not from men, neither through a man..." (Ga 1:1)  He was not a product of any group nor did he represent any group of men.  He was not ordained of men nor mentored by a man.  He goes farther, saying, "If I still pleased men, I were not a slave of Christ." (Ga 1:10)  It seems clear he is not advocating submission to even men of God in these words we regard as Holy Writ.  Advancing he says, "When it delights God...to unveil His Son in me...I did not immediately submit it to flesh and blood, neither came I up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me..."  So he goes still farther in saying he didn't go where the move of God was happening, where there were the only men so commendable as to be chosen bythe Messiah Himself and that were additionally qualified by walking with the Incarnation Himself for 3 1/2 years.  He says he went the opposite direction, "away into Arabia..." (Ga 1:15-17)  In case we don't understand the Holy Spirit's take on authority, Paul takes it so much farther to say, "Now from those reputed to be somewhat--what kind they once were is of no consequence to me (God is not taking up the human aspect)--for to me those of repute submitted (or,added) nothing." (Ga 2:6)  He's effectively leveling all who would follow Jesus, none exalted above aother.  He reveals that honoring The Teacher God has God honoring him, teaching him well.  Well wouldn't you know it, he has to darn the hole with an iron thread!  He brags about how he, "withstood [Cephas] to the face..." (Ga 2:11)  Yet, we are ready to assume Peter was perhaps the foremost authority among The Twelve.  Paul, the newcomer without any man or group of men to commend him, is he in rebellion?  No.  The kingdom of God of God is just God in direct relationship with each of us and God, being Jealous, won't have other mediators between us and Him.  Is Paul an anarchist?  No.  The only authority in the Church which is His body is Jesus present as the Holy Spirit. The true servants of God connect us to the Head and secure and enlarge that connection. Rather than the Holy Spirit giving them to lead the people, they give people over to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Those who think God wants us submitted to them or we won't advance in the image and likeness of God neither know what the coming of Jesus the Messiah means or what His presence in His Church accomplishes.


your brother, James Rohde

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: reFormer, there isn't enough space to write all the Amens I'd like to, to this. When I was alone, being taught of that same Spirit, one of the first things He ever said to me was, "You are never to bow the knee to any man (mankind's flesh), but only to My Spirit."  Let's pause for a moment and reflect on the external structure needed, if everyone would do JUST that......

It's hard to fathom, isn't it? Total submission to Him = total liberty. Not liberty as the flesh would have it, but liberty in His Spirit to only do and say that which pleases the Father. No wonder then it says, as many as are lead by His Spirit, they are the sons of God.
Blessings....

[Molly]

The only authority in the Church which is His body is Jesus present as the Holy Spirit. The true servants of God connect us to the Head and secure and enlarge that connection.

... one of the first things He ever said to me was, "You are never to bow the knee to any man (mankind's flesh), but only to My Spirit." 

This is so important.  This is the principal that our country was founded on--this idea that every man is accountable directly only to God, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.[2Cor 3:17]

Is there any man living or dead you could trust more than Jesus?  If you could pick only one to trust with everything that is dear to you, who would that be?  Who is the only one without controversy who has our best interest at heart?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


And--


John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

[CHB]

Is there any man living or dead you could trust more than Jesus?  If you could pick only one to trust with everything that is dear to you, who would that be?  Who is the only one without controversy who has our best interest at heart?

Amen Molly!!!  that is why it says, "there is ONLY ONE MEDIATOR between man and God and that is Jesus Christ, not another man.

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: AMEN. ALL men (not just a few, not just the unsaved, not just the non ministers) seek after their own things and not the things which be of Christ. It is only from being led by His Spirit and being IN His Spirit that we are able to seek after HIS things, and that includes the well being of others. Blessings....

[Nathan]

A note to affirm Cardinal's previous post . . . I think there is much to be said about the difference between men and "man".  There is a balance to all things that God establishes in us.  There is definitely a call to be obedient to the steps ordered of the Spirit of God and that "man" is not the one that leads you into all truths . . .at the same time . . .there are "men" (spiritually speaking, this obviously includes women as well . . .) that God does appoint and ordain that he establishes "over" others.

There is a necessity for the 5-fold ministry within the body . . .and within "my" body.  The spirit of life is a submissive spirit that does not rebel against authority in general.  Thus we are to submit ourselves "one to another."  Now, having said that, I understand that there are men being led by the mind of "man" that abuse this authority and as a result, many are wounded more than they are healed.  My spirit is to bow to no "man" in me . . .to no "carnality" or "flesh".  the original order in which we were created was that our Spirit rules over our mind and body . . .but when we let our spirit bow to our flesh . . . that is where great error begins to manifest in our understandings of what and how we interpret Scripture.

That's the 3rd dimension for me . . .the 2nd is when we see the corporate church bowing to traditions of men, rather than to the spirit of God.  We are spirit beings created to fly . . . but carnality binds and clips the wings to keep people as earth dwellers.  But there are prophets, apostles, preachers, teachers and evangelists out there that do emit life over law . .relationship over religion . .and there "is" much benefit to one who relinquishes their selfishness and personal control to another which then Christ manifests through us "in" that process of submission.

Just a thought.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I understand where you are coming from Nathan, and as a former 5 fold, maybe more than you know. All I'm going to say is this....one day the Lord asked me a seemingly simple question. He said, "What is in the Holy of Holies?"

I thought about it for a few seconds, before replying, "YOU ARE, LORD." That spoke volumes to me on so many different levels, it was like an explosion within. Blessings....

[Nathan]

Hey Card . . .I am in total agreement with you . . .on all points.  And when it comes to the 5 fold . . .for me . .  . I'm not one that is adamant about following the principles . .not personally . . .but here's my stance on it all today . . .where I'm at with it today . . .could change tomorrow . .but for today . . .

I beleive that as we mature in the Lord, certain aspects of the principles of Scripture will shift in us.  And when I experienced my first paradigm shift, my reaction to the place where I "was" was that it needs to be dispensed of . .it's no longer necessary . . .but what I left out  . . or at least didn't think about at the time was . . . well, the easiest way for me to explain this is by using the school analogy again . .because that's really what I see a flourishing church to be . . a school. 

And as great as it would be to have a church that can house all three dimensions in it, in most all cases, that's not to be.  A belief system is generally based on a common platform.  Most churches, evangelical and otherwise . ..are ministry oriented.  They are works-based and ministry oriented.  Most who are in kingdom realms now came out of there . . .it's not that they were bad, it's just that's where we were at that age in Christ.

And as one would graduate from junior high into highschool . .one wouldn't then claim there is no longer a need for junior high schools . .that would be silly . . .but to say that junior high schools are no longer necessary . . ."for me" . . .that would then make much more sense.

In the same way . ..when referring to the 5-fold ministry of a works-based church . . to say that they are all wrong and unnecessary would be a tragedy . . .I'm not saying you said that . .I'm saying I "thought" that . .but it's just not an accurate thing to say.  There are still so many people who are just not comfortable dealing with dimensions and hidden things that they "need" a place where they still can reach and touch the Father . .and he meets us on our own terms.  Not the most effective place to be, but it's what he does nonetheless.  So that's where I was coming from when touching on that area of my first post.

But as far as the holy of holies goes . . .understanding what's in that is all based on revelation through relationship with the Father through the Son and not on works-based rudiments. 

That help?

[Taffy]

Are ya Getting the picture   :icon_flower:   

It takes a fuller's soap, and pure water to remove the world's dirt from off our eyes.

"Darkness is night  :secret:  but joy cometh in the morning!"

peacemaker

:icon_flower:

**  JOY ** is WITHIN, He cometh in the Morning :icon_flower:

2Cr 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand

:icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi Nathan.....I should have said this before, but I guess I hope you know me enough now to know the motive of my heart when I share anything He has made life in me is not to condemn anyone. So I do hope you understand that when I say certain things, I am mindful of the fact that you are in 5 fold ministry and I am NOT trying to point anything at you at all. We are all where we are at until the Lord decides otherwise, and I agree with the school analogy; I use it myself a lot, to explain why I no longer attend anywhere, except when and where He leads.

My "problem" then in writing these things, is that as I share revelation He has given me concerning the purpose and ultimate ending of the in part realm, of which the 5 fold is a part, it is not personal, but intended to be revelatory so that whoever He desires to move, may have some of what they need quickened to them, so they can move without condemnation of their flesh, or the flesh of others, bearing down on them.

The Lord Himself set up and ordained myself and the others in the full 5 fold ministry (all 5) I was a part of, so for me to say He has not done such things, would be irrational at best. But by the same token, He ended it, and then showed me why, and why it must come to an end to receive more in the final dispensation of the age. That doesn't mean He's ended it with all the others that He has set up, only that it is coming at some point. Blessings to you.....

[Nathan]

This is my delimma . . .I'm a pastor . .part of the 5 fold ministry . .but I'm with you . . .my message is not one to establish more ministry, but it's to illuminate that we are "in" the day of REST. 

So, even though I'm in this ministry, I am not enforcing it on others that it's the only way to go . . .I believe it's all a maturity process.

Ministers and pastors are still needed to minister to and pastor over the flock as it goes through this process . .but all of our goals should always be moving toward that person of REST.

And yes Card, I really think you and I are saying the same stuff. :cloud9:

[Witness]

That God's Spirit working within me identifies with things of the Father and not of the world...not that I can't interact with others, talk to them, spend time with them; but that our spiritual eyes may be set on different goals, our life's focus on different things (things of the Spirit and life vs. things of the flesh and death) etc.  A super literal interpretation of the verses of which you speak would mean that Jesus didn't do what He said...and we know that's not true, because there was no lie or deceit in Him.

james, if God's Spirit were truly working within you, you would identify with the things I describe, for you would be, using your own words, identifying with the things of the Father and not of the world.  my experience with the walk with the Lord is not about dos and don'ts (you said, "not that I can't interact with others..."), but i experienced a parting of ways with those who didn't have the call of God on their lives as I did on mine. Does that mean i couldn't talk to them?  no.  if some were adamantly, viciously opposed (and they were), there wasn't much to talk about (to put it lightly). when the Lord said he brings a sword to divide, He means it!

You talk about not needing a super literal interpretation of those verses.  this isn't about interpretation, james!  this is about what the Lord has directly, personally done for me.  I didn't do what i did because I interpreted the Bible a certain way.  the Lord did what He did, creating that opposition for my sake, and after all was said and done I realized that i was living through exactly what the Scriptures say.  what a wonderful thing!

maybe it doesn't matter, but I don't understand what you are saying about those verses taken literally would mean that Jesus didn't do what He said.  I know that those verses applied to my life, and He did exactly what He said by bringing division with my family and others when I believed and obeyed Him.

who says I have locked myself away in a room?  am I not here talking to all of you???

as for a hierarchy, the Lord has His system of things, all in order, and that includes putting some over others, in righteousness.  God establishes certain men to exercise authority, as evidenced by the scriptures I gave to CHB. (which you ignore or try to explain away, CHB?)

you may say you believe the Bible, james, but what I see you doing is picking, choosing, and changing whatever sounds good to you.

onlytruth, your dream wasn't from God.

even if it were, sparrow, people in the Lord don't praise each other for anything given by God - whether the dream or the interpretation.  If God gives an interpretation (and he didn't), He gets the glory, not the person.

obviously apostle Paul wasn't saying what you say he was saying, reformer.  1) do you deny he gave the instructions that I quoted to CHB? (he doesn't contradict himself)  2) in galatians 1:18 (right after the verses you were quoting), he describes that he abode with Peter for 15 days and also saw James, Jesus' brother.  3) he also reports this-

Galatians 2:1-2 EMTV  Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, also taking Titus along.  (2)  And I went up by revelation, and I set before them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those with influence, lest somehow I might run, or had run, for nothing.

so he did submit to those in authority in Jerusalem! he also required submission of those he ministered to and gave orders!

1 Corinthians 5:3-5 BBE  For I myself, being present in spirit though not in body, have come to a decision about him who has done this thing;  (4)  In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you have come together with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,  (5)  That this man is to be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may have forgiveness in the day of the Lord Jesus.

it amazes me to see how much praise you received for your letter, reformer.  anyone who wishes to walk with the Lord needs to flee from your influence.

there are some excellent writings on Paul and Victor's site that address these issues- 
Iniquity (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/iniquity.htm)
That Prophet part 2 (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/thatprophet2.htm)
The Big Lie Exposed (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehoodexposed/biglie.htm).

[jabcat]

OK Witness, I think you're misunderstanding and judging, and not openly answering my questions;  which actually does provide information. 

Quote: "you may say you believe the Bible, james, but what I see you doing is picking, choosing, and changing whatever sounds good to you."  That's your opinion, and my opinion is that your opinion is based on your understanding and perhaps even more so, the influence of your "teachers".  There is such a thing as taking scripture in context, and rightfully dividing the Word of Truth.  Think what you will (or is it what your leaders approve?). God will sort it out. 

One more question.  Do you answer these questions and address these issues, or is someone else dictating what you say?

Jesus is my Savior.  Call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved.  Believe on the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved.  With what manner of judgment you mete it shall be meted unto you. Selah.
 

[Taffy]

That God's Spirit working within me identifies with things of the Father and not of the world...not that I can't interact with others, talk to them, spend time with them; but that our spiritual eyes may be set on different goals, our life's focus on different things (things of the Spirit and life vs. things of the flesh and death) etc.  A super literal interpretation of the verses of which you speak would mean that Jesus didn't do what He said...and we know that's not true, because there was no lie or deceit in Him.

james, if God's Spirit were truly working within you, you would identify with the things I describe, for you would be, using your own words, identifying with the things of the Father and not of the world.  my experience with the walk with the Lord is not about dos and don'ts (you said, "not that I can't interact with others..."), but i experienced a parting of ways with those who didn't have the call of God on their lives as I did on mine. Does that mean i couldn't talk to them?  no.  if some were adamantly, viciously opposed (and they were), there wasn't much to talk about (to put it lightly). when the Lord said he brings a sword to divide, He means it!

You talk about not needing a super literal interpretation of those verses.  this isn't about interpretation, james!  this is about what the Lord has directly, personally done for me.  I didn't do what i did because I interpreted the Bible a certain way.  the Lord did what He did, creating that opposition for my sake, and after all was said and done I realized that i was living through exactly what the Scriptures say.  what a wonderful thing!

maybe it doesn't matter, but I don't understand what you are saying about those verses taken literally would mean that Jesus didn't do what He said.  I know that those verses applied to my life, and He did exactly what He said by bringing division with my family and others when I believed and obeyed Him.

who says I have locked myself away in a room?  am I not here talking to all of you???

as for a hierarchy, the Lord has His system of things, all in order, and that includes putting some over others, in righteousness.  God establishes certain men to exercise authority, as evidenced by the scriptures I gave to CHB. (which you ignore or try to explain away, CHB?)

you may say you believe the Bible, james, but what I see you doing is picking, choosing, and changing whatever sounds good to you.

onlytruth, your dream wasn't from God.

even if it were, sparrow, people in the Lord don't praise each other for anything given by God - whether the dream or the interpretation.  If God gives an interpretation (and he didn't), He gets the glory, not the person.

obviously apostle Paul wasn't saying what you say he was saying, reformer.  1) do you deny he gave the instructions that I quoted to CHB? (he doesn't contradict himself)  2) in galatians 1:18 (right after the verses you were quoting), he describes that he abode with Peter for 15 days and also saw James, Jesus' brother.  3) he also reports this-

Galatians 2:1-2 EMTV  Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, also taking Titus along.  (2)  And I went up by revelation, and I set before them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those with influence, lest somehow I might run, or had run, for nothing.

so he did submit to those in authority in Jerusalem! he also required submission of those he ministered to and gave orders!

1 Corinthians 5:3-5 BBE  For I myself, being present in spirit though not in body, have come to a decision about him who has done this thing;  (4)  In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you have come together with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,  (5)  That this man is to be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may have forgiveness in the day of the Lord Jesus.

it amazes me to see how much praise you received for your letter, reformer.  anyone who wishes to walk with the Lord needs to flee from your influence.

there are some excellent writings on Paul and Victor's site that address these issues- 
Iniquity (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/iniquity.htm)
That Prophet part 2 (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/thatprophet2.htm)
The Big Lie Exposed (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehoodexposed/biglie.htm).

Hi witness

maybe you just dont see the Judgment in your post...im sure not going to Highlight them..

By all means share your veiw...and continue to do so :icon_flower:..BUT please SPARE your JUDGMENT

Ya Know even those pharisees WHO judged..forgot to Judge....gee what a Contradiction dont ya think :icon_flower:




Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


WOW ,those who Judged by the LAW forgot to Judge.....can ya tell me whats Missing?..

can ya help us out?  :icon_flower:

cos some folk  ARE in the dark, according to some....

Blessings Sister

Taffy :icon_flower:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I know that those verses applied to my life, and He did exactly what He said by bringing division with my family and others when I believed and obeyed Him.

Sometimes we have to be careful about what actually caused division and what manifests from it.   We can set a stage for evidence that appears to align with a verse, but really is not rooted in faith.

I assume you believe in the reconciliation of all mankind?

As I come to that belief and expressed that, I found division in my own household, so therefor I was seeing a manifestation of walking in faith as of course there is a verse that says that will happen.    But I was deceived.

I was not deceived about the reconciliation of all mankind.   I was a big assed jerk making accusations to my family I did not have the authority to make just because they did not believe what I was telling them.

A manifestation of faith took place within my family but it only happened when I was secure about what I believed and did not sway from it.  Rather than railing on about this belief I had that everyone else should follow, I allowed God to do the work of convincing.

Interesting now, my family is coming to accept the concept of there not being eternal damnation and even a family friend is accepting that as well.

People can continue their accusations if they like, fortunatly, those accusations only have authority about as far as I can throw my house.   Claiming that authority and actually having it are two entirely different things.

[jabcat]

You know Witness, in a way I'd sort of like to take back the things I've posted to you, because I feel bad for you.  I may be wrong, but I suspect you're being used, and are really a little one that needs to be loved and not injured.  Please forgive me if I have done so, and I will be praying for you.  I mean the content of what I've spoken, but again, believe you need a helping hand, not further pain inflicted.  If these were purely your thoughts that would be one thing, but I don't think they are.  May God provide you with special love, comfort, and a true light to your path.

James.

[peacemaker]

"And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His covering among themselves."

You are not a fool, just because you have thought something foolish; but only if the folly of it escapes you.

We will be carried to a higher place, even while we yet live!

Truly, truly, I say ...

peacemaker

[reFORMer]

 

as for a hierarchy, the Lord has His system of things, all in order, and that includes putting some over others, in righteousness.  God establishes certain men to exercise authority, as evidenced by the scriptures I gave...

There are authorities in the civil sphere, like kings and governors, over Adamic men, though not to the extent of denying the Lord who bought us. (cf., Rm 13:1-7)  When our bodies are transfigured like unto Jesus body of glory, the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdom of our God and of His Christ.  Even now we pursue, "Thy kingdom come , Thy will be done, in earth as it is in the heavens."

Church order is based on Christ, not Adam.  "...whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ, in Whom...there is no male and female..." (Ga 3:27-28)  In the Adam family, male is head of female.  "Head" includes the idea of source, as, for example, when we speak of "the 'head'waters of the Nile."  This is meant to refer to being one flesh, the great mystery, of Christ and the Church.  Jesus is the head.  If another is between the bride and her husband, telling her that to share intimate love with her husband she must go through him, what do you suppose that husband will do? and her husband is God!

Two orders exist:  Adam and Christ.  The nature of authority is very different for each.  In Adam, being many individual souls, authority is external submission.  It is heirarchical as the prophet Samual warned those of God's priestly nation how a king:  "...will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties..." (1 Sa 8:12)  This is not God's way for His royal Priesthood, then or now.  It happened of old for our instruction.  "Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations." (1 Sa 8:4-5)  This is what so many who have various leadership titles are practising.  Whether Pastor or Priest, Man of God, Bishop, so called Apostles and the like:  many are at best mixtures if not altogether false.  They are enabled by usurping the gifts and blessings from their audiences.  Examine the account in 1 Samuel 8 and notice how the king we are warned of takes the tenth, or tithe.

If they would have a king over them God says, "...they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them." (1 Sa 8:7)  "Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles." (1 Sa 8:19-20)  The confusion is when instead of the gift of God within, which is God manifesting, men rather claim they have it to be in charge of other men.  Real Elders maintain the Liberty of the Spirit to lead through any and every member's function.  True servants of God connect us to our head, Christ Jesus, securing and enlarging that connection.  Authority in the Body of Christ is God directly revealing Himself in us.  Anything of Jesus more fully formed that I see in another is true authority.  But, this is serving to bring about the same Image in me.  This touches on the word of "purpose" that seems so little heard, that "we should ALL attain...into a mature (finished, perfect) man, into the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ...(Ep 4.13)

The New Covenant is, "Not in accord with the covenant which I make with their fathers In the day of My taking hold of their hand To be leading them out of the land of Egypt..." (He 8:9)  No more, "Precious Lord, take my hand" because it is a union with Him rising within you.  In the New Covenant, spoken of so long ago by the prophet Jeremiah, "the Lord is saying: 'Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them...'" (1 Sa 8:10)  It is something you know by the Spirit within.  It is absolutely not teachable.  Someone outside of us cannot bring it about.  "And by no means should each be teaching his fellow citizen, And each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord!' For all shall be acquainted with Me, From their little to their great..." (1 Sa 8:11)  This is Immanuel, God-with-us, citizens in a kingdom where all of us are taught of God directly.  It is Him within another that makes that one profit in this kingdom.  What made Samuel or Moses, Elijah, Paul or John was God in them, not their flesh.  The Adam heirarchy is not in the Church which is His body.  The call is to come out of Babylon!  "And I hear another voice out of heaven, saying, "Come out of her, My people, lest you should be joint participants in her sins, and lest you should be getting of her calamities..." (Rv 18:4)

"And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.  But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve." (Luke 22:25-26, AV)  There's no hierarchy among those who are Jesus's disciples, period.  We're simply working other lords when any but Jesus Himself rules over each of us directly.  No problem with the boss in his office in the workplace.  We honor the President in his Whitehouse.  It's as the Church there's little benefit from external or legal rule.  When a bunch of youngsters come running in, because I'm so big I can see over (episkopos) them, where they're going, what they're doing.  Being younger they give me authority.  "Now Johnny, stop that.  All of you, quiet down.  Cheryl, go find your mother.  Everybody just take it back outside."  And the greatest is slave of all.  It's not how much I can bring healing or prophecy and the rest that determines my greatness.  The measure of ministry is how much of the image of Christ, all he is and does, I can bring forth from others.

Because the practice of Gentile Authority is so prevelent among believers, most commonly under the title of Pastor, it is important to note that when God tells the story of the Church, which is mostly in the book of Acts, there is no Pastor ever mentioned.  The only time of a possible mention in the N.T. is in the list of God's slaves in Ephesians 4:11; but, if we would be conformed to what is written, it is as inappropriate to apply it to what is done under that name today as it is to call the Pope and Apostle or believe official Mormon dignitaries are the prophet they are titled.  In Acts 20:28 we do not have anyone being called a Pastor.  The verb form of the word is describing a function, not labeling an office.  This function of "shepherding" is something intinsic to every child of God, and, if allowed to mature, we will come into it as a natural matter of course. It's our nature, being born of the good and the great Shepherd. Also because that's Who is in us, as we increase in our availability to Him, which is what maturing really is,  we operate in Shepherding ways, recognized or not. What Paul specifically warned them about was "from yourselves will arise men...to pull away disciples after themselves." (v.30) None of the apostles, only Jesus Himself is every said to have disciples.  Really the one most common position today that comes closest to being defined by those warning words of Scripture are Pastors. Perhaps not all are burdensome (taking the resource of the flock) wolves (which run in packsand have their own social order) not sparing the flocklet (you cross them and you're eliminated, their "alpha male" dominance must be enforced.) To accomplish having the people under their discipline they "speak dia-strepho," meaning "through-turn," reminiscent of our "Spin Doctors." You can't directly find it in the word but they'll put a spin on it to keep you under them. We are under a real Jesus and nobody's supposed to be between Him and us. You can't get any higher authority , so it's difficult to understand why we should believe we must have lesser authorities (if that's what they are) over us to get to Jesus; but, then, that's their spin.  They reveal that they don't want you to believe Jesus is as real as they are.  It's hard to say only bad Pastors or Priests are in view when so much of what the apostle said is descriptive of the position.



your brother, James Rohde

[reFORMer]

obviously apostle Paul wasn't saying what you say he was saying, reformer.  1) do you deny he gave the instructions that I quoted to CHB? (he doesn't contradict himself)

It is important to carefully examine the strongest apparent Biblical objection to the kingdom of God commonly made with Hebrews 13:17.  The KJV, which many translations follow, has made up some things reflecting the understanding of those paying for the translators work:  "Obey them that have the rule over you..."  "Rule" isn't there in the original, neither is "over."  It more literally has those who are "advanced in 'protecting and caretaking' (one word)."  Additionally, this is not the usual word translated "obey," which is to do what somebody else tells you to do.  The original is "yield," giving place to those who are already themselves doing something, or, "be persuaded."  The subsequent phrase (KJV) "and submit yourselves," aside from the fact it is in question if one desires a pure text, may be translated as, "and be deferring to them."  So we have, beginning with the context of maintaining sacrificial good deeds, "Yield to those who are advanced in protecting and caretaking (and be deferring to them, for they are vigilant for the sake of your souls..."  Instead of being told to be doing what we're told to do by those who would rule over us, this has us making room for and going along with those in our midst who are doing good works, specially the kind of work that has to do with adjusting our souls to accord with the Lord Jesus Christ. (v.8)  A similar phrase is in v.7, and instead of KJV: "Remember them that have the rule over you..." we should read, "Be remembering those who are in advance of you (or, those of your leaders) who speak to you the word of God, contemplating the sequel of their behavior, whose faith be imitating:  Jesus Christ, yesterday and today, the Same into the eons also." (He 13:7-8, CLV)

(Don't falsely imagine I'm basing this on the Concordant Literal Version only.  Anyone can do their own homework and discover what I've written is true.)

2) in galatians 1:18 (right after the verses you were quoting), he describes that he abode with Peter for 15 days and also saw James, Jesus' brother.  3) he also reports this-

Galatians 2:1-2 EMTV  Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, also taking Titus along.  (2)  And I went up by revelation, and I set before them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those with influence, lest somehow I might run, or had run, for nothing.

so he did submit to those in authority in Jerusalem! he also required submission of those he ministered to and gave orders!

We really only need quote in context to what you refer:
Galatians 2:1-11 (CLV)...
1 Thereupon, after the lapse of fourteen years, I again went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus also along with me.
2 Now I went up in accord with a revelation, and submitted to them the evangel which I am heralding among the nations, yet privately to those of repute, lest somehow I should be racing or ran for naught.

What is stated is that it was the Gospel he preached that was submitted to them, not his own person.

3 But not even Titus, who is with me, being a Greek, is compelled to be circumcised.
4 Yet, it was because of the false brethren who were smuggled in, who came in by the way to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they shall be enslaving us-
5 to whom, not even for an hour do we simulate by subjection, that the truth of the evangel should be continuing with you.
6 Now from those reputed to be somewhat-what kind they once were is of no consequence to me (God is not taking up the human aspect)-for to me those of repute submitted nothing.

This is how he regards those "supposed to be pillars!"  He refuse to submit to those with James keeping the laws of Moses and says of the apostles that they are of no consequence" to him because, God is no respector of persons, He, "...is not taking up the human aspect."

7 But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,
8 according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),
9 and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision-
10 only that we may be remembering the poor, which same thing I endeavor also to do.

Now this is immediately followed with:

11 Now when Cephas came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, for he was self-censured.

Mm...not very much submission to "authority" there!  Just because many people do not understand the gospel's liberating us  from the rule of other men does not invalidate the truth.  No boss or law will be needed when accomplished is the purpose of God:  to fill ALL things with Himself and cover all the earth with His glory as the waters cover the sea.   No boss or law can get us there either!  It is by grace which is the operation of God.

so he did submit to those in authority in Jerusalem! he also required submission of those he ministered to and gave orders!

It is clear from the context Paul submitted the Gospel, not himself.  Nowhere in Holy Scripture is this reported of Paul or any of the apostles, that they required submission to those they ministered to.  It is rather an oxymoron in fact, since "minister" is another word for "slaving."  That would have a slave subject his masters to himself.  As I say, it in NOT written.  This is something I'm now going very much into.  I've already personally done exhaustive studies on what Greek words might seem to imply defiance of Jesus'clear teaching on the subject (cf., Lk 22:25-26).  Paul repeatedly "entreats" or, "begs," never ordering them to obey.  1 Cor 7:10 is a good example, explaining where our commands are from:  "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord..."  The Concordant Literal has:  "Now to the married I am charging, not I, but the Lord..."

so he did submit to those in authority in Jerusalem! he also required submission of those he ministered to and gave orders!
1 Corinthians 5:3-5 BBE  For I myself, being present in spirit though not in body, have come to a decision about him who has done this thing;  (4)  In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you have come together with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,  (5)  That this man is to be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may have forgiveness in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Again, to quote in context to what you refer clarifies this is not about somebody bossing anybody else around in the Church.  It refers to something agreed on in the gathering of believers, with Paul's spirit and  with the power of our Lord Jesus! (v.4)

1 Corinthians 5:1-8 (CLV)...
1 Absolutely, it is heard that there is prostitution among you, and such prostitution (which is not even named among the nations), so that someone has his father's wife.
2 And you are puffed up, and mourn not rather, that the one who commits this act may be taken away from your midst.
3 For I, indeed, being absent in body, yet present in spirit, have already, as if present, thus judged the one effecting this,
4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (you being gathered, and my spirit, together with the power of our Lord Jesus),
5 to give up such a one to Satan for the extermination of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Not ideal is your boast. Are you not aware that a little leaven is leavening the whole kneading?
7 Clean out, then, the old leaven, that you may be a fresh kneading, according as you are unleavened. For our Passover also, Christ, was sacrificed for our sakes
8 so that we may be keeping the festival, not with old leaven, nor yet with the leaven of evil and wickedness, but with unleavened sincerity and truth.

it amazes me to see how much praise you received for your letter, reformer.  anyone who wishes to walk with the Lord needs to flee from your influence.

If you or anyone wants to flee into the arms of Jesus, understand what I explain to you.  Specially if there's a gathering of believers seeking to enter into being a body for Christ, the wife of the Lamb, seek into the way I point out here.


your brother, James Rohde

[jabcat]

Good word, James  :thumbsup:...context, rightly dividing....missed by many, needed by all...God will work all according to His will.

[reFORMer]

Do you realize how much time and labor goes into writing like that? not to mention the years of being dealt with by God.  I'm counting dung here!