Introducing Myself

[Taffy]

  paul C. came to you - "in demonstration of the Spirit and of power".

:cloud9: I know you directed your post at Martin, but I don't think he will mind if I comment on this part of this sentence quoted above, as he has so many other things to reply to. This statement, more than any other, just bowled me over. I'm not saying this to be mean spirited, but you obviously have no idea what it means to come in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power, if that is what you think Paul C. did in coming here, and that is alarming, and only confirms that all of you need prayer badly, and I ask you to forgive me for my joking earlier as clearly this is no joking matter. Blessings.....

isn't that exactly what happened here, on this forum?  these people claim to know God and to want to know god, but when a man from God answered them, they shut him down.

Ya beat me too it C :icon_flower:

Christ the POWER aand WISDOM of God....
:icon_flower:

[jabcat]

Wisdom, can you please tell me how you know these men are such powerful teachers that are sent from God to straighten so many others out...as opposed to say, 10 other men/women of renown that minister from God's Word?  Why are you so convinced they are to be listened to, perhaps even above all others?  Again, lest it be misunderstood...I DO NOT judge these men's salvation, or their relationship with God.  That is only known to God.  But would you please answer my questions?  Bottom line, how did you become convinced, and on what do you base your apparent opinion, that these men are to be set up above others as judges? 

Take care,

James.

[CHB]

When a group or man claims to be the only one who has been chosen to know the truth, that throws up a red flag to me. I have been involved with such a group. I learned the hard way that no one has all the truth. The World Wide Church of God claimed to be THE true Church, the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and Herbert W Armstrong was the leader.

Witness, my advice to you is, run as fast as you can from this group. Once you are free from it you will be able to see through the deception it portrays. Take a look at all the other men who claimed to be a prophet, or chosen of God to proclaim the truth. Since the apostles, I don't believe God has chosen ONE man to give the rest of us the whole truth.

CHB

[pneuma]

Hi all, as most of you know I have not been around much of late so I really don't know the extent of what happened concerning Paul Cohen. But maybe just maybe tents jumped the gun in banning him, after all we all see scripture a little differently.

Maybe he did come across as a know it all, but we all have our own style of writing, I have been accused of this as well as Craig has, but both myself and Craig if he was still here would tell you that we know we do not know it all but put forth what we see as of right now.

So the only concern for me would be Paul saying who is and who is not a child of God based on what he supposes us to believe, it just might be he does not understand what we believe because each of us has a different view on how God works out the salvation of all.

What Paul C. needs to realise, that he does not seem to, is that a child of God whether he understands everything perfectly is still a child of God. Paul ( the Apostle) never said those who believed in Christ were not children of God but he did say they were babes in Christ and still had need for milk and were not yet ready for strong meat.

Paul C if you read this I hope you can see this principle of the difference between those drinking milk and those eating meat and take it to heart.

I have not read much of what Paul wrote on his site but from what I have read he does have a point, which he brings out in his thread called

"The deadly error of the Universalists"

You will note He does not state the deadly error of Universalism, he states the deadly error OF THE UNIVERSALISTS, which is a BIG difference.

From his comments below, it seems to me that Paul believes in the salvation of all, but he see an error in the way some Universalists present how God is going to accomplish that salvation.

Here is his statement

There is one fundamental and deadly error in the teaching and preaching of the Universalists, and it is not the doctrine of universal salvation. The reconciliation of all things is a wonderful truth promised by God, the Lord Jesus Christ being declared both the beginning and the end of all things. It is written that to Him every knee shall bow, and all will know Him, from the least to the greatest. That is the Good News of God, which we do not dispute, but joyously affirm. Where the Universalists deviate from the truth is that they think to have found, and preach to others, another way to Heaven. As it is written: "But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you beside what we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

So how is it the Universalists so grievously err? Where have they gone astray?

Their error is this: The Universalists disregard the God-ordained principles and requirements by which one gets to the place of which they preach, which is salvation and peace with God and man. Therefore they never get there themselves, and neither do their listeners who follow them.

So it seems to me he is a believer in the salvation of all, but holds to a working out of that salvation in each and every life by the principles and requirements God has put forth in His word, which I also hold to and I know a few others on this board also hold to taking up our cross and dying daily principal.

So it might not be his message but the way he puts forth his message that people here have taken issue with.

Here is a question that a lady asked here awhile back and my response to it, I post it again in hopes that both Paul C and those who have had issue with what Paul C has said might understand the difference between the reconciliation which is pasts and the salvation which is promised as I believe this is where at least in part some of the confusion has come in.

Why preach the gospel at all?


For me the reason Jesus was sent and the reason Jesus sends us is to free people through Him from sin and death. Salvation is not complete just because one believes Jesus died for them. Believing is only the starting point on our journey toward full salvation, for we are reconciled by His death, but saved by His life.

All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.

So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.

Therefore Jesus send us out in order to proclaim His salvation by His LIFE.
His death reconciled all men, but His LIFE is what saves all men, this salvation is not a one time deal as such, but is a long process of walking in His LIFE and forsaking our own. Taking up the cross and following Him and enduring unto the end that we might be saved.


Thus we are told to proclaim His death and therefore His reconciliation for all men as a FACT that cannot be disputed , and we are to do this so that the entire world can have the same hope in His LIFE that we to have. Thus it is not by His death that sin and death are defeated but by His LIFE.

When we witness about that which Jesus done, we are first to tell all men that they have been reconciled because of His death, this fact breathes hope into the world that God does indeed love them. Then after people become aware of the fact of this reconciliation by His death we are to proclaim His resurrection. And it is because of the fact that He was resurrected OUT OF DEATH that the world is given hope of the same resurrection OUT OF DEATH. We are NOT saved from death, we are saved OUT OF DEATH, for it was while we were DEAD in sin that He died and was raised to life again for us.

So the resurrection is a moving from DEATH to LIFE, so as He died for all men, so to did He rise for all men, and this is the gospel of the good new toward ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.

If one believes Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE?

God bless

[WhiteWings]

"The deadly error of the Universalists"

You will note He does not state the deadly error of Universalism, he states the deadly error OF THE UNIVERSALISTS, which is a BIG difference.

Hi Scott,

The point is that in his own mind only his exact thoughts on universalism are true. Everyting that's a fraction different is 'deadly'

If he had presented his views in a gentle/modest way I'm sure his thread now woulf have been many pages long.
But because his warmonger attitude he got nothing besides the joy of putting some hate posts on his blog.

[pneuma]

Hi Scott,

HI WW good to see you still around these parts.

The point is that in his own mind only his exact thoughts on universalism are true.

Bro did he say only his exact thoughts on universalism are true? Or is it perhaps people here misunderstood him? I'm asking because like I said I was not here for what took place and I hate to see a brother banned for what may have been just a misunderstanding.

Everyting that's a fraction different is 'deadly'

I actually agree with that sentiment bro as there is only ONE truth, and anytime mans view is in place you will find that fraction deadly. My only problem here would be if Paul C thinks he knows all the truth for scripture itself tells us And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
But I am not sure Paul C is saying he knows everything, if he indeed is then he would do well to heed the scripture I just posted.

If he had presented his views in a gentle/modest way I'm sure his thread now woulf have been many pages long.
But because his warmonger attitude he got nothing besides the joy of putting some hate posts on his blog.

Again could this not be a misunderstanding of the way some people post?
I've been around these forum enough to see all manner of postings, some people come in with guns blazing and other hardly say much at all.
I am not in any way picking on anyone here especially the mods, it's a tough job, one not to be desired, and they take the brunt of this type of thing.

Of course saying people are not children of God who believe in Christ is off base but it might be Paul C did not take into account the difference in age (spiritually) of Gods children. And if that is the case it might be that pointing this out to him might have corrected his error and I hope he reads this and realises his error in doing that. Force feeding a babe meat just chokes the baby is a good rule to remember when speaking of the things of God, yet we have ALL been guilty of doing it.

Again guys I am not pointing any fingers I just hate to see someone banned until all options have been explored. I guess I just may have empathy for those who get banned because I have had it done to me.
Peace and God bless

[jabcat]

Hi Scott...have you been to his web site?  If not, I think that might shed a lot of light.  I guess that is, unless someone actually agrees with that type of POV  :dontknow:.  Although I personally didn't actually hit the ban button, I think the ban was perhaps a matter of discernment as much as anything.  Sort of a "oh boy, here we go..this won't end good, and in the meantime, it's going to be a terrible mess".  And again, posts have been removed from here, so the full evidence upon which to base opinions is not present. 

[WhiteWings]

Hi Scott,

The point is that in his own mind only his exact thoughts on universalism are true.

Bro did he say only his exact thoughts on universalism are true? Or is it perhaps people here misunderstood him?

IMO the first. But many here have similar thoughts about their own version of UR. What really makes the diffrence is how you communicate. When you block my driveway I can nicely ask you to move your car. Or I can ask with my riotgun.
Same question. Different attitude.

Everyting that's a fraction different is 'deadly'

I actually agree with that sentiment bro as there is only ONE truth, and anytime mans view is in place you will find that fraction deadly.

True. But only Father/Son/HS know things 100%. So claiming you know all is claiming your on their level....

But I am not sure Paul C is saying he knows everything, if he indeed is then he would do well to heed the scripture I just posted.

Maybe he doesn't think he's foolproof. But he hides it well with "I come to inform" instead of "I understand it like..."

If he had presented his views in a gentle/modest way I'm sure his thread now would have been many pages long.
But because his warmonger attitude he got nothing besides the joy of putting some hate posts on his blog.

Again could this not be a misunderstanding of the way some people post?

Both the writer and the readers are not perfect.
But if you take a (quick) look at his site you will see his tone isn't exactly gently. Toward gary his conclusion is... well something close to godless/heretic.

I guess I just may have empathy for those who get banned because I have had it done to me.

Scott,
Being banned on CARM is doesn't count as something bad  :laughing7:

[Taffy]

Hi Scott...have you been to his web site?  If not, I think that might shed a lot of light.  I guess that is, unless someone actually agrees with that type of POV  :dontknow:.  Although I personally didn't actually hit the ban button, I think the ban was perhaps a matter of discernment as much as anything.  Sort of a "oh boy, here we go..this won't end good, and in the meantime, it's going to be a terrible mess".  And again, posts have been removed from here, so the full evidence upon which to base opinions is not present. 

Yo Scott
Not all is what seems to appear bro, Maybe ya missed certain deleted Posts...we are not talking disagreement..but whole hearted Judgment.

:icon_flower:

[pneuma]

Hi Scott...have you been to his web site?  If not, I think that might shed a lot of light.  I guess that is, unless someone actually agrees with that type of POV  :dontknow:.  Although I personally didn't actually hit the ban button, I think the ban was perhaps a matter of discernment as much as anything.  Sort of a "oh boy, here we go..this won't end good, and in the meantime, it's going to be a terrible mess".  And again, posts have been removed from here, so the full evidence upon which to base opinions is not present. 

Hi Jab, I only read a little under the error of what universalsit beleive, but have sence posting my post here I have read some of his replies to the posters here and no I don't like that type of attitude of judgment but it could be a response of being banned from here, you know like someone getting their nicker all up in a bunch. Only God knows for sure. Anyway its not my place to pass judgment on anyone and if you can get pasts his posts directed at those on this board he does have some good things to say. Eat the meat spit out the bones.

[pneuma]

IMO the first. But many here have similar thoughts about their own version of UR. What really makes the diffrence is how you communicate. When you block my driveway I can nicely ask you to move your car. Or I can ask with my riotgun.
Same question. Different attitude.

:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: you crack me up bro, but tis true nonetheless

[pneuma]

Hi Scott...have you been to his web site?  If not, I think that might shed a lot of light.  I guess that is, unless someone actually agrees with that type of POV  :dontknow:.  Although I personally didn't actually hit the ban button, I think the ban was perhaps a matter of discernment as much as anything.  Sort of a "oh boy, here we go..this won't end good, and in the meantime, it's going to be a terrible mess".  And again, posts have been removed from here, so the full evidence upon which to base opinions is not present. 

Yo Scott
Not all is what seems to appear bro, Maybe ya missed certain deleted Posts...we are not talking disagreement..but whole hearted Judgment.

:icon_flower:

Taffy like I said bro I am not judging the mods here for banning him, obviously things transpired here that I am not aware of, I only question if deleting post and banning is the proper method of dealing with these type of things.

Let me give you a senerio a new reader comes here and see Paul C posts and wonders what all the fuss is about so they go and check out Pauls site and see that he says he was banned for comming here to profess the truth, you as mods here are privy to why he was banned as you say it was not what he beleived is why he was banned but the way he presented himself which is contrary to the rules of this board.

So the reader looks over all Pauls posts and see nothing that he said that was against the rule (as the mods deleted those posts) what impression does that give the reader?

Two camps (his and tents) saying two different reasons for the banning, whose the reader to beleive?

For myself I would have left the posts for the proof is in the pudding so to speak and they would either condem or uplift as the case may be.

Can you understand my reasoning? Would this not provide the truth/proof of the two reasons given?

I guess it is just the different way people view things bro, you guys view things different then me, not saying I am right and you guys wrong, just giving a different perspective to uphold the inegrity of this board. I would have first warned him publically about his conduct, locked the tread, but left all evedence in view for all to see, and if he did not change his conduct then banned him.

Now heres the critical point, by deleting his post you have done more to promote his web site then if you had of left the post for all to see, for now people will go there to see what all the fuss is about.

That's why I checked out his site, I could not see any reason in his posts that would be the cause of his being banned.

Hope you can see were I am comming from bro and again this is NOT a judgment against you mods, it just a different view on the way I see how things could be run, whether better or worse, I truly do not know, but think about it.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Some people can orchestrate a scenario on purpose.   The mods have set up a system and Paul C knew he would get banned.

The posts that remain in that thread are not personal character attacks nor are they judgments about the standing Paul C has with God.   His post was mainly slights of character disguised as some kind of biblical admonishion. 

It was likely intentional to give him more justification for his nonsense. Now he can play martyr and act like that proves he is correct.   It does nothing of the sort.   It's not provable but I stand by that charge of judgment willing to be judged in the same measure on this one.

[firstborn888]

obviously things transpired here that I am not aware of, I only question if deleting post and banning is the proper method of dealing with these type of things.

Paul C. says when he speaks to you it is God speaking to you. He says if you reject what he says you are rejecting God and spitting in God's face. Then he proceeds to prophesy curses that will take place because you have rejected God.

Any reader can go to his site and confirm what I have said above. It's a no brainer that what these guys say is nonsense unless you actually believe they are God's chosen above all men on earth and that they are God's exclusive spokes people. If so you need to hang on their every word or God will curse you  :thumbdown:

He just needs a good psychiatrist to work his problems out.   :winkgrin:

[onlytruth]

hi pneuma... i shouldn't have told cohen to check his judgement about a friend of mine.
because what came in response was pretty much a curse on my life and i now should live in holy terror according to him and victor.
i am not fearful, because truly greater is he who is in me!
he showed no love, no compassion,no mercy...just control through fear mongering.i've been intimadated by enough of well meaning christians that i know better, to turn away.
i will not correspond with him anymore,i feel sorry that he can't love,he is missing out on the abundant life.
blessings :icon_king:

[jabcat]

i am not fearful, because truly greater is he who is in me!
i will not correspond with him anymore,i feel sorry that he can't love,he is missing out on the abundant life.
blessings :icon_king:

Good for you ot  :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

hi pneuma... i shouldn't have told cohen to check his judgement about a friend of mine.
because what came in response was pretty much a curse on my life and i now should live in holy terror according to him and victor.
i am not fearful, because truly greater is he who is in me!

:cloud9: Unbelievable.... :mshock:

[Witness]

Wisdom, can you please tell me how you know these men are such powerful teachers that are sent from God to straighten so many others out...as opposed to say, 10 other men/women of renown that minister from God's Word?  Why are you so convinced they are to be listened to, perhaps even above all others?  Again, lest it be misunderstood...I DO NOT judge these men's salvation, or their relationship with God.  That is only known to God.  But would you please answer my questions?  Bottom line, how did you become convinced, and on what do you base your apparent opinion, that these men are to be set up above others as judges? 

Take care,

James.

yes, James-

a number of years ago, I was caught in the system of false Christianity. Through victor and paul's preaching, god showed me that He is not in anything that is formalized by doctrines - he did not come to give us doctrine! He came to give us life!!!  in obedience to these men of god, i have been receiving His life.  I was brought to repent of my false and wicked ways... separated from those close to me who wanted to continue in those ways. after coming to see that I am NOTHING and He is EVERYTHING, and if I have anything from Him, he has all the glory!  after being given this by God, He filled me with His Spirit - the baptism in the holy Spirit - through the ministry and hands layed on by victor and paul. 

after that I had new life in Him! he gave to me the scriptures in Ephesians 1, and showed me that I was "accepted in the beloved."  praise God!!!  since that time, He has given me visions, dreams, prophesys, and most importantly a walk with Him and fulfillment in His work.  and victor and paul are my spiritual elders, my fathers in the faith who birthed me and have been raising me to spiritual adulthood.

so when you ask me how I became convinced... I wasn't convinced!  the Lord has been directly working with me and giving me faith and all good things because of my walk of obedience to Him - submitting to those He sent to me.  and I know that others have to have the same to come into the true life in the Lord.  Everything else is make believe!

[Witness]

When a group or man claims to be the only one who has been chosen to know the truth, that throws up a red flag to me. I have been involved with such a group. I learned the hard way that no one has all the truth. The World Wide Church of God claimed to be THE true Church, the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and Herbert W Armstrong was the leader.

Witness, my advice to you is, run as fast as you can from this group. Once you are free from it you will be able to see through the deception it portrays. Take a look at all the other men who claimed to be a prophet, or chosen of God to proclaim the truth. Since the apostles, I don't believe God has chosen ONE man to give the rest of us the whole truth.

CHB

CHB-

just because you were taken in by a false teacher doesn't mean there are no true teachers - men of God!

you can't judge what is happening/has happened with me because you were burned. jesus said even then, "beware of false prophets." so because there were false prophets, does that mean people shouldn't have followed Jesus or apostle Paul?  paul even said-

1 Corinthians 11:1 DRB  Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

but what about those who were burned by false teachers?  did this not apply to them too?

the false doesn't disqualify the true, CHB.

[Witness]

paul replied to a couple older comments on his website, if you go to What's New.  www.thepathoftruth.com

since he is banned from coming on here, why don't you write him, Scott?  i'll send him your comments.

[jabcat]

Hi Witness.  Who are the folks you feel you need to be separated from, how was that decision made, and exactly what is your relationship/contact with them now, please?  Also, could you explain what the difference is between your belief in "the false" vs. your belief now in "the true"?  In other words, had you called on Jesus, believed on Him as your Savior before, but needed some things clarified, taught to you, changes made in your life before you could enter into what you now consider "the true", i.e., Victor and Paul's ministry?  Thanks, James.

[Taffy]

Let me give you a senerio a new reader comes here and see Paul C posts and wonders what all the fuss is about so they go and check out Pauls site and see that he says he was banned for comming here to profess the truth, you as mods here are privy to why he was banned as you say it was not what he beleived is why he was banned but the way he presented himself which is contrary to the rules of this board.

So the reader looks over all Pauls posts and see nothing that he said that was against the rule (as the mods deleted those posts) what impression does that give the reader?Two camps (his and tents) saying two different reasons for the banning, whose the reader to beleive?

For myself I would have left the posts for the proof is in the pudding so to speak and they would either condem or uplift as the case may be.

Sure Scott. :icon_flower:

The deleted posts still remain in storage and we have access  to them if necessary, the link to Paul and Victors site still remain on the thread,  if folk are interested in what these Guys are about, they only need visit and read thier site...As Byron mentioned ^ its no brianer ^.


If in the future such occasions arise,  we can store such threads upon another board , that is, if Gary and Martin see a purpose for it.

Ill sure mention it and we can see what materializes. :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

[Taffy]

hi pneuma... i shouldn't have told cohen to check his judgement about a friend of mine.
because what came in response was pretty much a curse on my life and i now should live in holy terror according to him and victor.
i am not fearful, because truly greater is he who is in me!
he showed no love, no compassion,no mercy...just control through fear mongering.i've been intimadated by enough of well meaning christians that i know better, to turn away.
i will not correspond with him anymore,i feel sorry that he can't love,he is missing out on the abundant life.
blessings :icon_king:

More than a few of us have been through such times OT ,Thanking HIM for releasing you from such bondage. :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

[firstborn888]

a number of years ago, I was caught in the system of false Christianity. Through victor and paul's preaching, god showed me that He is not in anything that is formalized by doctrines - he did not come to give us doctrine! He came to give us life!!! 

Witness,
   That's great and I'm so glad you found that God is real. I was never in that false system as God made Himself known to me when I was an atheist.
   I have worked very closely with many 'men of God'. When one I worked with (almost daily) for ten years pronounced a curse on some of my brothers and sisters I instantly knew that was NOT from God even though many things from that man were of God.
   Paul and Victor are failures as we all are. They will fail you witness. They are cursing what God has blessed and that is just so much B.S.
   I am not afraid of their stupid curses. God is my God without them. They are not being hated on here - they are receiving the just response for their bad behavior and ridiculous claims.
   We'll see how this charade ends up  :dontknow:
   Peace and grace to you witness  :icon_flower:
   I will waste no more time on this subject. Who they are and what they are doing is self evident.  :Sparkletooth:

[peacemaker]

victor and paul are my spiritual elders, my fathers in the faith who birthed me and have been raising me to spiritual adulthood ... submitting to those He sent to me ... and I know that others have to have the same to come into the true life in the Lord.  Everything else is make believe!

"... take heed to yourself, least you make a covenant or mutual agreement with the inhabitants of the land..."

Having a mode of life in their spiritual food that is primarily obtained by the killing and consuming of others.

peacemaker