Natural and Spiritual

[rosered]

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 

Nice flower   

  :icon_flower:   Yes Bro  G !! thanks!  born  AGAIN  of the incorruptible seed  which IS CHRIST WORD OF GOD
Definatly  spiritual in nature  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

ps  as it is written , not all flesh is the '' SAME  FLESH ''

               :winkgrin:

  :HeartThrob:
Hope you are doing well Bro G  :icon_flower:

[Tony N]

Oh really Tony?  and what verse did you get that from?  

I already told you which verse yet you have not believed me because His word is _______ (fill in the blank) in you. I will repeat it . . .

John 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

1Co 2:13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom,
but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words."

Because most of your posts are emphasizing literal words while yet you're trying to say you are proclaiming life.  Life is not in a Greek or Hebrew dictionary.  You make it sound  like if only we all had the original text, then everyone would know the truth . . .

Is that what you're trying to say?

Nathan, if you are not matching spiritual words with spiritual blessings then you don't really know what those spiritual blessings are. Words are important. God uses words to tell us what blessings we have. They are not there just to use printer's ink. We can't know what the spiritual blessings are without knowing what God literally spoke to us. The words are spirit and spiritual. It doesn't say for us to change the "spiritual words" into hyper-spiritual meanings.

I never said life was in a Greek or Hebrew dictionary gives life. Did I? So why say it? That is a straw man argument.

Just being able to read the original Greek and understand the original Greek is not enough to know what God has revealed. Only God can open the mind to know. But we have to read what the words are that God gave us so that God can open those words to our minds and hearts. If those words are mistranslated, then the transmission of what the true spiritual blessings are is lost.

[Taffy]

Just being able to read the original Greek and understand the original Greek is not enough to know what God has revealed. Only God can open the mind to know. But we have to read what the words are that God gave us so that God can open those words to our minds and hearts. If those words are mistranslated, then the transmission of what the true spiritual blessings are is lost.

Again T no ones Disputing the literal....

some Fine scholars in the wwcg...Earnest L Martin was one in his time ...Kinda paid three tithes too....maybe ya work mate may have heard of him..along with two others..L Ray Smith and Mike Vinson

:icon_flower:

[Taffy]

ps  as it is written , not all flesh is the " SAME  FLESH "

               :winkgrin:

  :HeartThrob:
Hope you are doing well . ro G  :icon_flower:

Amen sis.. for the Flesh profits NOTHING...... Then to BE Born of his flesh and Bones :icon_flower:

1Cr 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.




Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the KNOWLEDGE of SIN.

Gen 2:3 Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.




Ephes 5:30 For WE are members of HIS body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

[Nathan]

Oh really Tony?  and what verse did you get that from?  

I already told you which verse yet you have not believed me because His word is _______ (fill in the blank) in you. I will repeat it . . .

John 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

1Co 2:13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom,
but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words."

Because most of your posts are emphasizing literal words while yet you're trying to say you are proclaiming life.  Life is not in a Greek or Hebrew dictionary.  You make it sound  like if only we all had the original text, then everyone would know the truth . . .

Is that what you're trying to say?

Nathan, if you are not matching spiritual words with spiritual blessings then you don't really know what those spiritual blessings are. Words are important. God uses words to tell us what blessings we have. They are not there just to use printer's ink. We can't know what the spiritual blessings are without knowing what God literally spoke to us. The words are spirit and spiritual. It doesn't say for us to change the "spiritual words" into hyper-spiritual meanings.

I never said life was in a Greek or Hebrew dictionary gives life. Did I? So why say it? That is a straw man argument.

Just being able to read the original Greek and understand the original Greek is not enough to know what God has revealed. Only God can open the mind to know. But we have to read what the words are that God gave us so that God can open those words to our minds and hearts. If those words are mistranslated, then the transmission of what the true spiritual blessings are is lost.
[/quote]

In essence Tony, your saying that words have spiritual meaning . . .but if you misinterpret the literal word, the Spirit can not reveal to you the spiritual intent . .

If this is what you are implying . .then I have to humbly disagree with you . .again . .  I believe the written words are not what lead me into truth . . .but the spirit leads and it's my perspective that can see.  If my perspective is wrong, then so is my understanding.  The words play a role for sure . . .but you spend the vast majority of your posts splitting hairs and engaging in arguments over the literal words . .. never mind the spiritual picture that lies beneath.  And you claim that "I'm" the one that initiates a strand argument?

Nathan, if you are not matching spiritual words with spiritual blessings then you don't really know what those spiritual blessings are.

This "sounds" intelligent . .but it makes no sense. How would you know what a spiritual blessing is, unless God reveals it to you as such?  Seriously . . .a while back there was a conversation about people having things dropped into them while in the shower . . .nobody was studying . .no words were being defined . . .God just chose to freak people out because that's what God does . . .it's a spiritual relationship that manifests at any given moment . . .studying is not required.  It's a great help, but to go on and on and on over one word . .as though an entire belief system and spiritual relationship pivots on getting that one thing right . . and you're doing it again here.

You're using the right Scriptures . .but your message isn't matching up to what the passages are saying.

John 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

You quote this to me, and this has been my issue with you from the beginning.  I've quoted this same thing to you bro.  You're telling me flesh doesn't benefit anything . . .and yet it's the fleshly descriptions you're arguing about.

1Co 2:13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom,
but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words."

And "this" is what we've been DOING all along only to have you accuse us of making up our own doctrines . . . ya got it all reversed.

[gregoryfl]

Here is my 2 drachma's on flesh. When spoken of in scripture, they have two meanings, each related to the other. I call them the two p's (in a pod)  :laughing7:

1) Physical soft tissue
2) Physical senses

They exist for 2 purposes, another 2 p's:

1)Protection
2)Pleasure

Physically, we are all in the flesh. Jesus was as well. However, in another sense, we are not. It is this sense which I have come to see as the following:

To be in the flesh is to live by our senses. We are our life. It leads, and because we are "in" it, we naturally follow. Simultaneously.
To be in the spirit is to live by the Lord. He is our life. He leads, and because we are in him, we naturally follow. Simultaneously

Ron

[claypot]

Tony, you wrote.....

It doesn't say for us to change the "spiritual words" into hyper-spiritual meanings.

I asked you before and you had no answer but being you used the term again maybe now you do. My 2 questions are.......w

What does hyper-spiritual mean?

Could God be labeled as being hyper-spiritual?

Here's a third question. Would you consider yourself a hyper-literalist?

cp

[Tony N]

Just being able to read the original Greek and understand the original Greek is not enough to know what God has revealed. Only God can open the mind to know. But we have to read what the words are that God gave us so that God can open those words to our minds and hearts. If those words are mistranslated, then the transmission of what the true spiritual blessings are is lost.

Again T no ones Disputing the literal....

some Fine scholars in the wwcg...Earnest L Martin was one in his time ...Kinda paid three tithes too....maybe ya work mate may have heard of him..along with two others..L Ray Smith and Mike Vinson

:icon_flower:

Taffy, you wrote:

[/quote]Again T no ones Disputing the literal....[/quote]

I think that Nathan is disputing the literal because when I try to correct the mistranslation of psuchekon as "natural" that it should be  "soulish" I am denigrated for trying to find the literal meaning of psuchekon. Otherwise I would not be going to all the trouble of defending my position.

I spoke a little with Mr. Martin on the phone a couple times. Didn't really know him personally. And spoke at one conference in Ohio with bro. L. Ray Smith and another conference with Mike Vinson if memory serves me correctly.

Anyway, peace bro.

Tony

[Tony N]

Tony, you wrote.....

It doesn't say for us to change the "spiritual words" into hyper-spiritual meanings.

I asked you before and you had no answer but being you used the term again maybe now you do. My 2 questions are.......w

What does hyper-spiritual mean?

Could God be labeled as being hyper-spiritual?

Here's a third question. Would you consider yourself a hyper-literalist?

cp

To me, hyper-spiritual is someone who goes beyond what the actual spiritual meaning of something is to something rather bizarro.

God is not hyper-spiritual.

I am not a hyper-literalist because I don't make things to be literal beyond their literalness.

[claypot]

This thread is so cool in the fact that God has just the right combination of people to keep it going. The repetition may be too much for some but it is good for me and I thank all involved. You all are some of the most patient people I know.

If I didn't think any better I would say Tony is playing an adversarial role to keep this thread alive to make a record of some sort. I think this only because when I review the arguments it seems the pro spiritual points win out dramatically over the pro physical but of course I am biased. My Father is spiritual, Jesus' words are spirit in nature (meaning?), our Holy Guide is Spirit, God's home turf is spiritual, the messengers are of a spirit nature and any who wish to worship God MUST worship Him in flesh....ooops I mean in SPIRIT and in truth.

Tony, you are a Brother. Keep up the good work. Walk in the spirit, eat spiritual food like Jesus did, pray to the Father who is Spirit and keep trying to make it all seem like a flesh show. We all learn in different ways.

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen cp, this really has been a bountiful thread, and God bless Tony for starting it, for sure God has used him.  :HeartThrob:

[claypot]

Tony, you wrote.....

It doesn't say for us to change the "spiritual words" into hyper-spiritual meanings.

I asked you before and you had no answer but being you used the term again maybe now you do. My 2 questions are.......w

What does hyper-spiritual mean?

Could God be labeled as being hyper-spiritual?

Here's a third question. Would you consider yourself a hyper-literalist?

cp

To me, hyper-spiritual is someone who goes beyond what the actual spiritual meaning of something is to something rather bizarro.

God is not hyper-spiritual.

I am not a hyper-literalist because I don't make things to be literal beyond their literalness.

Tony, if you don't see God as 'bizarro' then what do consider bizaar? I mean this with all due respect to you and God but you gotta admit, God is way out there, in a good way ofcourse.

I know I do challenge God by experimenting with His word. I don't think I will ever out 'bizaar' Him though. To find meanings in His message to us that may seem too good to be true and that bring honor to Him and His Son is a good thing and to suggest that we can go too far in doing that is complimenting the creation more than it should be complimented.

I don't think I can ever out spirtitualize God or over spiritualize Him who is Spirit.

Tony, you wrote...

I am not a hyper-literalist because I don't make things to be literal beyond their literalness.

I ask you, do you think you see beyond their literalness to the God who is not literal as you use the word literal?

cp

[Taffy]

Anyway, peace bro.

Tony

Right bac atcha Bud  :icon_flower

[Tony N]

Tony, you wrote.....

Tony, if you don't see God as 'bizarro' then what do consider bizaar?

I am not a hyper-literalist because I don't make things to be literal beyond their literalness.

I ask you, do you think you see beyond their literalness to the God who is not literal as you use the word literal?

cp

To read of this:
2Th 2:4 "who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?"

And say that is talking about the antichrist dwelling in our flesh is way bizarro. It is not what Paul intended to transmit to the Thessalonians.

I say: Literal when most likely, figurative when not.

Do I see beyond the literal? Of course, if it calls for it. A lamb sitting on the throne is not literally a lamb but Jesus. A sword coming out of Jesus' mouth is not really a sword by His words which kill. We are not literally salt.

[Taffy]

:cloud9: Amen cp, this really has been a bountiful thread, and God bless Tony for starting it, for sure God has used him.  :HeartThrob:

:icon_flower:

[Paul Hazelwood]

To read of this:
2Th 2:4 "who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?"

And say that is talking about the antichrist dwelling in our flesh is way bizarro. It is not what Paul intended to transmit to the Thessalonians.

It certainly is possible that he was conveying something along those lines.   This is the exact reason I left organized religion, Tony, those speaking as if their interpretation was what must be taken or everyone else has a problem.   And that is exactly what your doing.

Please delete this post if it breaks forum rules, but I'll never apologize for it.  I've had enough of this nonsense.

[Tony N]

To read of this:
2Th 2:4 "who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?"

And say that is talking about the antichrist dwelling in our flesh is way bizarro. It is not what Paul intended to transmit to the Thessalonians.

It certainly is possible that he was conveying something along those lines.   This is the exact reason I left organized religion, Tony, those speaking as if their interpretation was what must be taken or everyone else has a problem.   And that is exactly what your doing.

Please delete this post if it breaks forum rules, but I'll never apologize for it.  I've had enough of this nonsense.

Paul, no problem, friend. I take your post as positive criticism.



2Th 2:1-13  Now we are asking you, brethren, for the sake of the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to Him,  (2)  that you be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be alarmed, either through spirit, or through word, or through an epistle as through us, as that the day of the Lord is present."  (3)  No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction,  (4)  who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?  (5)  Do you not remember that, still being with you, I told you these things?  (6)  And now you are aware what is detaining, for him to be unveiled in his own era."  (7)  For the secret of lawlessness is already operating. Only when the present detainer may be coming to be out of the midst,  (8)  then will be unveiled the lawless one (whom the Lord Jesus will despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence),  (9)  whose presence is in accord with the operation of Satan, with all power and signs and false miracles"  (10)  and with every seduction of injustice among those who are perishing, because they do not receive the love of the truth for their salvation."  (11)  And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,  (12)  that all may be judged who do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice."  (13)  Now we ought to be thanking God always concerning you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, seeing that God prefers you from the beginning for salvation, in holiness of the spirit and faith in the truth,


The lawless one has not been unveiled yet. He has not come yet. He will come when that which is detaining him is taken out of the midst. We, the body of Christ detain him. When we meet the Lord in the air then he will be revealed.

I don't have a miracle working antichrist giving all power and signs and false miracles in my body. And that supposed antichrist which you say is in my body is not seducing those who are perishing with injustice because I receive the love of the truth for my salvation.

Sorry, friend but it is way wacked out hyper bizarro to think that is what Paul was telling the Thessalonians that they would be used to deceive the world.

God is not sending me an operation of deception to believe the falsehood of that man of lawlessness.

[claypot]

To read of this:
2Th 2:4 "who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?"

And say that is talking about the antichrist dwelling in our flesh is way bizarro. It is not what Paul intended to transmit to the Thessalonians.

I say: Literal when most likely, figurative when not.

Do I see beyond the literal? Of course, if it calls for it. A lamb sitting on the throne is not literally a lamb but Jesus. A sword coming out of Jesus' mouth is not really a sword by His words which kill. We are not literally salt.

Tony, all I can say is I'm glad we got you to tell us exactly what Paul meant when he spoke. Yes I am being sarcastic but look at your words, Brother. I'm sorry but I have to agree with Paul.

Also that phrase you live by and 'see God' by is something I've heard before from another Brother and it is really a bizaar way to intepret what a Spritual Being is communicating to us. That thing you said.....

I say: Literal when most likely, figurative when not.

Again, glad we have people like you to tell us when things should be literal physical and when they should be literal spiritual. My buddy I told you about who holds the above motto like you also argued with me that plucking out the eye was literal. When I told him hes got to be kidding, he replied that God wouldn't have said it if he didn't mean it and it sure would stop perverts from eyeing up good looking chicks. You are in a scary camp Brother. Good luck.

Why would that be your motto and guide to the Holy Scriptures? Ever hear of the spirit of the message?

Oh well, you can only see what you can see as I, so off I go to badger my Father with questions. Let me say though that some people baffle me more than God Himself.  :dontknow:

cp

[claypot]

Tony, do you take the book Pilgrims Progress as literal? Any of it?

cp

[Molly]

Ok I'm going to ask my question again, because I'm still wrestling with this--

What is the difference between Jesus and Adam--as men?  Why is Jesus obedient

and Adam is not?  Again, Jesus uses scripture to fight satan which Adam does not have--

is that the difference?

And, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,' -- is that something Jesus had

before the cross?  Or did that only happen after the resurrection? [for instance,

we see him use it when he breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples].  It must be

something he had before the cross because he said his words were spirit and life.

So, where did it come from?


In other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?

[Taffy]

To read of this:
2Th 2:4 "who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?"

And say that is talking about the antichrist dwelling in our flesh is way bizarro. It is not what Paul intended to transmit to the Thessalonians.

It certainly is possible that he was conveying something along those lines.   This is the exact reason I left organized religion, Tony, those speaking as if their interpretation was what must be taken or everyone else has a problem.   And that is exactly what your doing.

Please delete this post if it breaks forum rules, but I'll never apologize for it. 

No need to apologise Paul....we are EACH intitled to our veiw.

Alas.I heard all this years Back about the Anti Christ ....makes me shudder to think of the thought...... :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

author=Molly link=topic=3960.msg50138#msg50138 date=1233698657]
Ok I'm going to ask my question again, because I'm still wrestling with this--

What is the difference between Jesus and Adam--as men?  Why is Jesus obedient

and Adam is not?  Again, Jesus uses scripture to fight satan which Adam does not have--

is that the difference?




And, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,' -- is that something Jesus had

before the cross?  Or did that only happen after the resurrection? [for instance,

we see him use it when he breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples].  It must be

something he had before the cross because he said his words were spirit and life.

So, where did it come from?


In other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?

Wasnt HE born of the HOLY spirit, but tempted as all men. :bigGrin:

ohn 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,  full of grace and truth

[claypot]

Molly, your words in bold....

Ok I'm going to ask my question again, because I'm still wrestling with this--

What is the difference between Jesus and Adam--as men?  Why is Jesus obedient

and Adam is not?  Again, Jesus uses scripture to fight satan which Adam does not have--

is that the difference?

Great question/s. IMO Adam is the beginning of God making man in His image. 'He' is the floundering babe. 'He' is the clay, the dirt, the material of man. Jesus, on the other hand, is Gods finished product, completely filled with the Spirit. A done deal.

Molly I did comment on your question about Adam having Scripture. Are you thinking Adam needed a King James Bible or some such literal written work? I believe the first words spoke to Adam were Scripture. They talked, God and Adam did.


And, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,' -- is that something Jesus had

before the cross?  Or did that only happen after the resurrection? [for instance,

we see him use it when he breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples].  It must be

something he had before the cross because he said his words were spirit and life.

So, where did it come from?

Jesus did not obtain a quickening spirit, He is the resurrection and the life, He is the quickening spirit, He is the Son of God.


In other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?


The above.

Molly, just like I see my life. I am born in a floundering ignorant state and through trials and tribulations and victories and defeats I become me. I am a created being and this means going from one state of being to another. I don't see Jesus as being created, to me, He is. In the beginning I just can't seem to 'defeat' Satan yet when I am mature I will defeat 'him' 'in Jesus'.

cp

[claypot]

Another reason I want to see all of Scripture in Gods language is because of all the people who can't or won't ever study the written word. All of our talk about Israel and new Jerusalem and redemption and baptism and tribes and natural and spiritual and on and on are only interesting to the 'choir'. I want to take Gods words and communicate the literal spirit of the message to others. To preach physical things seems way too limited for the needs of people. Sure, if your right hand offends you cut it off, is good physical teaching for someone with gangrene in their right hand but the spiritual message is for all people in all times.

cp