Natural and Spiritual

[Taffy]

claypot, I really was buried with Christ when He was burried. I also really was raised from the dead when He was raised. I really am seated with Christ among the heavens even now. I am a new creation now. I am alive from among the dead. I am righteous before God. I am in Christ. How's that for true spirituality? And I really believe it!

:icon_flower:

A King and priest :icon_flower:

[claypot]

Amen.

[peacemaker]

claypot, I really was buried with Christ when He was burried. I also really was raised from the dead when He was raised. I really am seated with Christ among the heavens even now. I am a new creation now. I am alive from among the dead. I am righteous before God. I am in Christ. How's that for true spirituality? And I really believe it!

:icon_flower:

A King and priest :icon_flower:

:happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap: ... a standing ovation!

peacemaker

[Tony N]

2Cor. 3:2 You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,

Is this a literal letter written with ink and papyrus? Or is it a spiritual letter?

2Cor. 3:3 for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven, not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart."

Whether we like it or not, we are being read every day by our actions and words with our neighbors and friends. Are they getting a mixed message? Or do they see the consistency of "a letter of Christ"?

Are we manifesting a letter of Christ engraven with the spirit of the living God on the tablets of the heart? I often fail at this. Often the ink the letter people read seems to be a little smeared here and there. It seems the paper is a little torn here and there.

But there is hope! Read about all the problems those Corinthians were having and which Paul was addressing! And yet Paul still wrote that they were written on Paul's heart and that they were manifesting a letter of Christ. The word is translated into our lives to be read by all men.

These Corinthians must have known about the law written on stone tablets. Maybe they also read about those early Israelites who had hearts of stone which God would be replacing with hearts of flesh. I wonder if this is where we get the phrase "hard hearted"?
"The letter is killing, yet the spirit is vivifying." Paul did not mean that the letter engraven on their hearts was killing. But the letter of the law was killing yet the spirit is what brings to life a living relationship with God.

How does your letter read to your neighbors and friends? If they can "read you like a book" what is that book saying to them? Can they read a letter, as it were, from Christ? A letter of love? of sacrifice? of devotion to your heavenly Father?

Ah, the spiritual side of things is always much brighter than the fleshly side.

Tony

[reFORMer]

To use words that are symbolic to start with to represent various dimensions of being is only normal, inasmuch as they are "words," not the thing they call up in our minds.  If when you said "chair" one would literally appear in your friends head, you would be walking around killing people if you tried to talk.  Do you think Solomon was so stupid that he didn't understand what the various levels of meaning in his Song of Songs meant?  While in a boat together, Jesus warned His disciples to beware the leaven of the Pharisees, meaning their doctrine; but, they discussed among themselves what He meant.  Was He scolding them because they forgot to buy bread?  Jesus characterized His entire manner of teaching as symbolic.  He expressly said He was always intentionally speaking in parables, and without parables He did not speak.

[Molly]

Yes, we are symbolic beings by virtue of our powerful capacity for language and abstract thought.

The cognitive psychologists and linguists claim that thought determines destiny.  First the thought, then the feeling, then the act.  Control the thought, control the feeling, control the act, control the destiny.

Is it so simple as that?  The battle is a spiritual one, and that in the realm of thought.

God gave the man Adam language and then gave the god-Man Adam a command.

But that same gift was used by satan to deceive and murder, which could really sum up all the history of the last 6000 years.

Language is a tool which can be used to kill or make alive, controlling as it does our thoughts, feelings, and actions.


6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

--Gen 4



[sin lieth at the] "door"

H6607
פּתח
pethach
peh'-thakh
From H6605; an opening (literally), that is, door (gate) or entrance way: - door, entering (in), entrance (-ry), gate, opening, place.




2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.



Proverbs 18:21
The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Molly, that's almost exactly the way He showed me it works. Satan speaks a thought to our mind, and if we accept it, it creates an attitude, and that attitude produces an action. It really is that simple, and why we have a HELMET of salvation. Blessings....

[claypot]

To use words that are symbolic to start with, inasmuch as they are "words," not the thing they call up in our minds.  To represent various dimensions of being is only normal.  To use words that are symbolic to start with, inasmuch as they are "words," not the thing they call up in our minds.  If when you said "chair" one would literally appear in your friends head, you would be walking around killing people if you tried to talk.  For words to represent various dimensions of being is only normal.  Do you think Solomon was so stupid that he didn't understand what the various levels of meaning in his Song of Songs meant?  While in a boat together, Jesus warned His disciples to beware the leaven of the Pharisees, meaning their doctrine; but, they discussed among themselves what He meant.  Was He scolding them because they forgot to buy bread?  Jesus characterized His entire manner of teaching as symbolic.  He expressly said He was always intentionally speaking in parables, and without parables He did not speak.

Ref,

So good and right on IMO!

cp

[sheila]

   Yes, and the Israelites had blood of the passover Lamb

   on their doorposts...And all the Egyptians houses were dark

   but all the Israelites house had light.

[Tony N]

To use words that are symbolic to start with, inasmuch as they are "words," not the thing they call up in our minds.  To represent various dimensions of being is only normal.  To use words that are symbolic to start with, inasmuch as they are "words," not the thing they call up in our minds.  If when you said "chair" one would literally appear in your friends head, you would be walking around killing people if you tried to talk.  For words to represent various dimensions of being is only normal.  Do you think Solomon was so stupid that he didn't understand what the various levels of meaning in his Song of Songs meant?  While in a boat together, Jesus warned His disciples to beware the leaven of the Pharisees, meaning their doctrine; but, they discussed among themselves what He meant.  Was He scolding them because they forgot to buy bread?  Jesus characterized His entire manner of teaching as symbolic.  He expressly said He was always intentionally speaking in parables, and without parables He did not speak.

Ref,

So good and right on IMO!

cp

But Jesus spoke to the people in parables only after it was made apparent to Him that Israel was not going to accept Him as Messiah.

Mat 13:10 And, approaching, the disciples say to Him, "Wherefore art Thou speaking in parables to them?
Mat 13:11 Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given."

Later Jesus told His disciples to be warry of the leaven of the scribes and pharisees.

So was Jesus just being parabolic when speaking of His death? that He must be suffering much . . . etc. . . .

(Mar 8:31)  And He begins to teach them that the Son of Mankind must be suffering much and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed and after three days rise."

(Luk 9:22)  saying that "The Son of Mankind must be suffering much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be roused."

(Luk 17:25)  Yet first He must be suffering many things and be rejected by this generation.

(Act 9:16)  for I shall be intimating to him how much he must be suffering for My name's sake."

I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.

[sheila]

  Luke 2;34  Then Simon blessed them and said to Mary

  'This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many

  in Israel, and to be a SIGN that will be spoken against.

    His whole life was a sign...a signpost of the 'way" we

  should walk in this earth.


   I am the Way and the Truth and the Life


   Signs and symbols...words and letters,parabolic and pictorial

  all designed to show forth spiritual eternal realities.

   Our Father is a Great Teacher.

   

[claypot]

Tony wrote......

I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.

This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?

cp

[peacemaker]

Tony wrote......

I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.

This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?

cp

Was that a parable, as they often involve a character   :wink1:

peacemaker

[Tony N]

Tony wrote......

I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.

This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?

cp

cp, I am disappointed in your statement. It adds nothing to trying to get to the truth. Rather, it gives the false impression that I made a statment only to keep a conversation going.

There was an important point I was making, in case you missed it, and which you failed to quote.

Here, I'll repost the part that I wrote and which I wanted an answer to:

So was Jesus just being parabolic when speaking of His death? that He must be suffering much . . . etc. . . .

(Mar 8:31)  And He begins to teach them that the Son of Mankind must be suffering much and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed and after three days rise."

(Luk 9:22)  saying that "The Son of Mankind must be suffering much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be roused."

(Luk 17:25)  Yet first He must be suffering many things and be rejected by this generation.

(Act 9:16)  for I shall be intimating to him how much he must be suffering for My name's sake."

I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.

[claypot]

Tony wrote......

I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.

This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?

cp

cp, I am disappointed in your statement. It adds nothing to trying to get to the truth. Rather, it gives the false impression that I made a statment only to keep a conversation going.

There was an important point I was making, in case you missed it, and which you failed to quote.

Here, I'll repost the part that I wrote and which I wanted an answer to:

So was Jesus just being parabolic when speaking of His death? that He must be suffering much . . . etc. . . .

(Mar 8:31)  And He begins to teach them that the Son of Mankind must be suffering much and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed and after three days rise."

(Luk 9:22)  saying that "The Son of Mankind must be suffering much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be roused."

(Luk 17:25)  Yet first He must be suffering many things and be rejected by this generation.

(Act 9:16)  for I shall be intimating to him how much he must be suffering for My name's sake."

I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.

Sorry Tony, I was in a mood and took it out on you. It is good to be esteemed highly enough in your sight to warrant disappointment although I am ashamed of myself for causing this with a Brother. Let me try again.

I thought of the Spirits words that say but without a parable spake He not unto them. mk4.34

I think Jesus' death and suffering happened in a physical way yet I think it was God speaking directly to our 'hearts' and minds things spiritual. His death and suffering is a parabolic story in the sense that the death and suffering that Jesus experienced are like nothing we imagine them to be.

I not only believe we can make a parable out of everything Jesus said but I think we must do so to see all God intends us to see.

cp

[reFORMer]

I saw a young woman on a stage, which from a distance looked somewhat more impressive than close-up where the black paint was scuffed and dirty.  She was confidently saying something to the effect that,  "...by using the Bible symbolically rather that literally is central to the great deception the Bible warned was coming upon people in these last days.  By trying to use what should be directly understood to instead stand for allegories they will make it say anything they want."  Hearing this was so indescribably frustrating to me; but, I was just a spirit, floating horizontal to the stage at about the level of her head.  I reached for her jaw as she was speaking such adversarial words without understanding.  Even as I thought I couldn't affect something in the material realm, being just a spirit, I discovered to my surprise I was not only moving her jaw, but affecting her own being at a spiritual level such that she was very shaken, staggering backward with her mouth hanging open..  The word that was then spoken to me was:  "I will have a people who have been taught of me."  This gave me great comfort.

You do know that is what racial dispensationalists teach?  I've heard Hal Lindsay, John MacArthur and others say it.  It is a very uninformed view that robs believers of much wealth and knowledge.  Not only history of interpretation but Scripture itself bears witness to many allegories, types and symbols.

Galatians 4:21-31, (AV)...
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

It this passage concerning the symbolic an example for emulation in additional portions of the law, a kind of key to what else God would decode to our wondering eyes or does it describe a limit?


your brother, James Rohde

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, He will........

[Tony N]

Tony wrote......

I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.

This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?

cp

cp, I am disappointed in your statement. It adds nothing to trying to get to the truth. Rather, it gives the false impression that I made a statment only to keep a conversation going.

There was an important point I was making, in case you missed it, and which you failed to quote.

Here, I'll repost the part that I wrote and which I wanted an answer to:

So was Jesus just being parabolic when speaking of His death? that He must be suffering much . . . etc. . . .

(Mar 8:31)  And He begins to teach them that the Son of Mankind must be suffering much and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed and after three days rise."

(Luk 9:22)  saying that "The Son of Mankind must be suffering much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be roused."

(Luk 17:25)  Yet first He must be suffering many things and be rejected by this generation.

(Act 9:16)  for I shall be intimating to him how much he must be suffering for My name's sake."

I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.

Sorry Tony, I was in a mood and took it out on you. It is good to be esteemed highly enough in your sight to warrant disappointment although I am ashamed of myself for causing this with a Brother. Let me try again.

I thought of the Spirits words that say but without a parable spake He not unto them. mk4.34

I think Jesus' death and suffering happened in a physical way yet I think it was God speaking directly to our 'hearts' and minds things spiritual. His death and suffering is a parabolic story in the sense that the death and suffering that Jesus experienced are like nothing we imagine them to be.

I not only believe we can make a parable out of everything Jesus said but I think we must do so to see all God intends us to see.

cp

Claypot, if you lived during the time of the apostles and if the only account you ever received was John's account, you would never even know Jesus spoke in parables because it is never mentioned in John's account.

The parables that are supposed to be parables are said to be parables in the other accounts. Otherwise nothing else is a parable.

Now I'm not saying that some things which are not parables are not to be taken figuratively. We see types and shadows in the Old Testament concerning the Christ in the New.

[Nathan]

Tony wrote......

I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.

This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?

cp

cp, I am disappointed in your statement. It adds nothing to trying to get to the truth. Rather, it gives the false impression that I made a statment only to keep a conversation going.

There was an important point I was making, in case you missed it, and which you failed to quote.

Here, I'll repost the part that I wrote and which I wanted an answer to:

So was Jesus just being parabolic when speaking of His death? that He must be suffering much . . . etc. . . .

(Mar 8:31)  And He begins to teach them that the Son of Mankind must be suffering much and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed and after three days rise."

(Luk 9:22)  saying that "The Son of Mankind must be suffering much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be roused."

(Luk 17:25)  Yet first He must be suffering many things and be rejected by this generation.

(Act 9:16)  for I shall be intimating to him how much he must be suffering for My name's sake."

I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.

Sorry Tony, I was in a mood and took it out on you. It is good to be esteemed highly enough in your sight to warrant disappointment although I am ashamed of myself for causing this with a Brother. Let me try again.

I thought of the Spirits words that say but without a parable spake He not unto them. mk4.34

I think Jesus' death and suffering happened in a physical way yet I think it was God speaking directly to our 'hearts' and minds things spiritual. His death and suffering is a parabolic story in the sense that the death and suffering that Jesus experienced are like nothing we imagine them to be.

I not only believe we can make a parable out of everything Jesus said but I think we must do so to see all God intends us to see.

cp

Claypot, if you lived during the time of the apostles and if the only account you ever received was John's account, you would never even know Jesus spoke in parables because it is never mentioned in John's account.

The parables that are supposed to be parables are said to be parables in the other accounts. Otherwise nothing else is a parable.

Now I'm not saying that some things which are not parables are not to be taken figuratively. We see types and shadows in the Old Testament concerning the Christ in the New.

Tony, be sure when you make these statements as you do, you also add that this is just your opinion . .this is not fact.  As was very well shared from Galatians 4 on another thread . . .the topic touching on the son of Sarah being of promise, and the son of her handmaiden being one of law . . .is an allegory . . it is a natural experience revealing a spiritual truth. 

God's language . .to me . . .is not in what is written . . .but it's in the creation.  What is written is simply man's way of relaying what is created.  Your take on the parables seems very limiting.  You make it sound like many things Jesus did and experienced were just happenstances . . .cooincidence . . .when there is really no such thing . . .again . .in my opinion. 

Everything was maticulously laid out at the foundation of the world . . .everything Jesus not only said, but did was with purpose . .on purpose. . ."in" purpose.  Matthew 23 depicts something that for me is very telling . . .where it says "Jesus left the temple . . ."  It reminds me of what Elijah saw from the cave on the mountain . . .he saw all these great wonders manifesting before him . .but God was not in them . . .Well . . . unfortunately . . . the shadow "was" in the temple, but the substance left it because those running the temple doctrines, rejected the very one who established and enabled their safe passage into light and life.

When Jesus healed a blind man . .asked him what he saw . . .he said he saw men as trees walking . . . you really think Jesus was having an off day that day?  That he just didn't have enough faith in him to heal this guy in one shot?  Or could it be that Jesus was using the situation to reveal even a deeper revelation of the nature of his ministry?  Men are trees . . .take that to the garden . . .it's a whole other can of worms . .but it's fascinating to get into.

Bottom line . . . that "is" the nature of God . . . he speaks to us by way of natural events and actions . . not just in words . .but in deed as well.  Why do you suppose so many references speak of Christ "sitting" at the "right hand" of the Father?  You don't think that is an allegory of something else?

Seeing things spiritually . . .is identifying the allegory in the text, and letting that "reveal" to you the message spiritually intended.  An allegory, to me, is not another definition for "spiritual".  For me . .it's what opens the understanding of the spiritual content.

[Tony N]

Tony, be sure when you make these statements as you do, you also add that this is just your opinion . .this is not fact.  As was very well shared from Galatians 4 on another thread . . .the topic touching on the son of Sarah being of promise, and the son of her handmaiden being one of law . . .is an allegory . . it is a natural experience revealing a spiritual truth.

Dear Nathan, I am sure, that's why I said it. It is not just my opinion but a fact. An allegory is not a parable.
Jesus sitting at the right hand of God is not a literal statement.

Literally it is "sitting at the rights of God" (Mark 16:19).

It is a position of power since the right (hand) of God is His strong arm if you will (not that He really has arms and legs).

But it is not spoken as a parable but as symbolic language.

When reading the Genesis account of the creation I see all sorts of types and shadows of the gospel in it. I am not as you would characterize, one who takes everything literal all the time.

[Nathan]

Tony, be sure when you make these statements as you do, you also add that this is just your opinion . .this is not fact.  As was very well shared from Galatians 4 on another thread . . .the topic touching on the son of Sarah being of promise, and the son of her handmaiden being one of law . . .is an allegory . . it is a natural experience revealing a spiritual truth.

Dear Nathan, I am sure, that's why I said it. It is not just my opinion but a fact. An allegory is not a parable.
Jesus sitting at the right hand of God is not a literal statement.

Literally it is "sitting at the rights of God" (Mark 16:19).

It is a position of power since the right (hand) of God is His strong arm if you will (not that He really has arms and legs).

But it is not spoken as a parable but as symbolic language.

When reading the Genesis account of the creation I see all sorts of types and shadows of the gospel in it. I am not as you would characterize, one who takes everything literal all the time.

par⋅a⋅ble   /ˈpærəbəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation  [par-uh-buhl] Show IPA Pronunciation 

–noun 1. a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
2. a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.

Funny, the dictionary seems to think that a parable and an allegory are pretty much the same . . .fact?

[Tony N]

My dictionary is better than yours . . .

Main Entry: par·a·ble 
Pronunciation: \ˈpa-rə-bəl\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin parabola, from Greek parabolē comparison, from paraballein to compare, from para- + ballein to throw — more at devil
Date: 14th century
: example ; specifically :  a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
-----------------------------------------------------------

Main Entry: al·le·go·ry 
Pronunciation: \ˈa-lə-ˌgȯr-ē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural al·le·go·ries
Etymology: Middle English allegorie, from Latin allegoria, from Greek allēgoria, from allēgorein to speak figuratively, from allos other + -ēgorein to speak publicly, from agora assembly — more at else, agora
Date: 14th century
1: the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence ; also : an instance (as in a story or painting) of such expression
2: a symbolic representation : emblem 2

[Nathan]

My dictionary is better than yours . . .

Main Entry: par·a·ble 
Pronunciation: \ˈpa-rə-bəl\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin parabola, from Greek parabolē comparison, from paraballein to compare, from para- + ballein to throw — more at devil
Date: 14th century
: example ; specifically :  a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
-----------------------------------------------------------

Main Entry: al·le·go·ry 
Pronunciation: \ˈa-lə-ˌgȯr-ē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural al·le·go·ries
Etymology: Middle English allegorie, from Latin allegoria, from Greek allēgoria, from allēgorein to speak figuratively, from allos other + -ēgorein to speak publicly, from agora assembly — more at else, agora
Date: 14th century
1: the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence ; also : an instance (as in a story or painting) of such expression
2: a symbolic representation : emblem 2

Of course it is . . .everything you see is better than everyone else . . . why would your dictionary be any different.

[Tony N]

Of course it is . . .everything you see is better than everyone else . . . why would your dictionary be any different.

Thank you.

[claypot]

God is working and Jesus is working. All will be well and is well for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

cp