Natural and Spiritual

[Cardinal]

It was in the process of trying to confirm for sure if UR was true, I was studying OT scriptures alot, suddenly WHAM...  I started seeing scriptures in a new light...   I actually had to go look for anyone who might be seeing things the same way, because I thought I was  :icon_joker: nutso  :icon_jokercolor: or something... LOL

:cloud9: I know the feeling well  :winkgrin:. When I started this walk 23 years ago, I had one friend, who, He in His mercy, raised up with me. For the first year, we didn't know a living soul who was being shown the things we were. I kept saying, "They're (people in church) going to stone us for this stuff, maybe literally, you know that, right?" rofl.....

[reFORMer]

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'  In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.  [/i]

--Daniel 9

Molly,
What version are you using?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading -------- of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (KJV)

Concordant Literal indicates they got the following bold "the sanctuary" from the Septuagint: "...on a wing of the sanctuary shall be desolating abominations..."

[Cardinal]

Well, golly Gee . . .if he meant my mind, why didn't he just say that?  Why all the secrecy? 

  :icon_flower:

mmm ,...Good question....never did figure that out  :icon_flower:

:cloud9: Because it's the nature of kings to search out a matter? Gold isn't found on the surface.  :winkgrin: (And I know you know this, just clownin')

[Taffy]

It was in the process of trying to confirm for sure if UR was true, I was studying OT scriptures alot, suddenly WHAM...  I started seeing scriptures in a new light...   I actually had to go look for anyone who might be seeing things the same way, because I thought I was  :icon_joker: nutso  :icon_jokercolor: or something... LOL

:cloud9: I know the feeling well  :winkgrin:. When I started this walk 23 years ago, I had one friend, who, He in His mercy, raised up with me. For the first year, we didn't know a living soul who was being shown the things we were. I kept saying, "They're (people in church) going to stone us for this stuff, maybe literally, you know that, right?" rofl.....

Some 16  yrs since we left such habitats....many a Yr for sure Alone, weird..BUT never Lonely :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Well, golly Gee . . .if he meant my mind, why didn't he just say that?  Why all the secrecy? 

  :icon_flower:

mmm ,...Good question....never did figure that out  :icon_flower:

:cloud9: Because it's the nature of kings to search out a matter? Gold isn't found on the surface.  :winkgrin: (And I know you know this, just clownin')

Of course matey...
I just love that Search ***OUT****, kINDA  REMINDS me of work*****  OUT ****** your salvation :winkgrin:

:icon_flower:...like From INSIDE out , Opposed to OUTSIDE IN... :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Dear Bob, Scripture does not agree with that assumption.

Tony, it was not an assumption.  The translation I quoted says exactly what I said.  "...and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

Let's expand on the last part of the above verse: "for that all did sin." Expanded: [and it is] for [that reason of death passing through] that all did sin.

In other words, sin entered the world when Adam sinned. After Adam sinned death began its process in Adam. And since all mankind came from Adam, death passed through into all mankind. Based upon death passing through into all mankind, all sinned.

That's one way to expand it.  Every translation I read that expands it, expands it as "because all sinned" or equivalent.

• NKJV Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
• NLT When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned
• NIV Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–
• ESV Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
• NASB Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
• RSV Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned
• HNV Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; and so death passed to all men, because all sinned

It does not say that "all sinned and due to that, death passed through into all mankind."

That is exactly what all the translations that expand it say.

Paul is saying that sin was not even being taken into account because the law of Moses was not given yet, nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses (before the law was given).

Something is wrong with that theory Tony, God is taking sin into account here...

• Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

<br>

• Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

<br>

• Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

<br>

• Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

<br>

• Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

<br>

• Genesis 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

I would say that Paul is saying that even though the law had not been explcitly spelled out until Moses, death STILL reigned through sin.

So this proves that death did not come because everyone sins but due to Adam's transgression.

For me, it would take alot more than what you presented to prove that the wages of death is sin.


Bob

Bringing another previous conversation to the top . . . the argument Tony has in this is, he's taking the comments of others to mean that rather than death passing into all men through one man, death is passing into all men through the sins of all men . . .and then all these different translations were shared out . . .I just wanted to comment on what I see here with this.  I can see what Tony is saying here (gasp!) that all sin has passed on to us through one man.  I agree with that.  I think the arguement is the result of another misplaced comma.

I don't see this saying that sin came into all men due to all men sinning . . .I see this saying DEATH came to all men, through all men sinning . . .missing the mark births separation from life.  But the whole message is not about sin, it's not about the first Adam introducing the sin . .and it surely isn't about death.  The whole purpose of the passage is to see that as much as sin has reached all mankind through one man . . .HOW MUCH MORE does life reach all mankind through the LAST ADAM's manifesting life on earth through the resurrection from death?  The argument of sin seems to be taking away from the message of life . . .just my opinion is all.

[reFORMer]

Jer 31:20 [Is] Ephraim my dear son? [is he] a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. 

"...my bowels are troubled for him..." is really God saying, "...My womb trembles for him..." (Jr 31:20)

"He who is believing into me, according as the Scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water." (Jn 7:38, CLV)

Knoch, in his Keyword Concordance indicates "bowel" and/or "womb" are interchangeable for Greek koil i' a that he asigns CAVITY for the keyword.  It is your "innermost chamber."

The image of God is Adam and then "male and female."  Out of your WOMBS shall gush rivers of living water!  It is upon the dry ground he promised to pour out rivers of mercy.

[Molly]

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'  In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.  [/i]

--Daniel 9

Molly,
What version are you using?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading -------- of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (KJV)

Concordant Literal indicates they got the following bold "the sanctuary" from the Septuagint: "...on a wing of the sanctuary shall be desolating abominations..."

That's the Holman Standard Christian Bible.  Why?  Do you think it's not correct?  I just hadn't realized before that satan took Jesus to the pinnacle [wing/"kanaph"] of the temple and told him to throw himself down.   This translation fits in perfectly with that.

What's satan doing hanging out on the pinnacle [highest point, as a wing] of the temple?

[Molly]

out of their bellies shall flow rivers of living waters

Gee I love that Scrip....the BIRTH of a New mind..HIS in US :icon_flower:

Hey Taf . . .why the belly?  Why not the mouth?  Why not the mind?

Because it has to do with birthing--childbirth.




1After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

--Gen 15

[out of thine own] "bowels"
H4578
מעה
mê‛eh
may-aw'
From an unused root probably meaning to be soft; used only in plural the intestines, or (collectively) the abdomen, figuratively sympathy; by implication a vest; by extension the stomach, the uterus (or of men, the seat of generation), the heart (figuratively): - belly, bowels, X heart, womb.

[Nathan]

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'  In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.  [/i]

--Daniel 9

Molly,
What version are you using?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading -------- of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (KJV)

Concordant Literal indicates they got the following bold "the sanctuary" from the Septuagint: "...on a wing of the sanctuary shall be desolating abominations..."

That's the Holman Standard Christian Bible.  Why?  Do you think it's not correct?  I just hadn't realized before that satan took Jesus to the pinnacle [wing/"kanaph"] of the temple and told him to throw himself down.   This translation fits in perfectly with that.

What's satan doing hanging out on the pinnacle [highest point, as a wing] of the temple?

That's what Paul was referring to in 2 Thessalonians . . .satan . .the adversary . . .my mind . . at emnity, the adversary against the kingdom of the invisible realm.  He's doing the same thing he did with Adam in the garden and he continues to do "in" all of us . . .he tries to lure us away from the tree of the Spirit and get us to eat from the tree of natural reasoning . .Adam chose knowledge, Jesus subdued knowledge and brought forth life.

Do you really think that a king of darkness, evil and filth had anything that would literally and physically tempt Jesus, who was light and life?  Is that what the church has come to?  That death really has a quality within that life would be tempted to be a part of?

To much is out of place with that principle.  However, if you see that Jesus was in the flesh . . .just like any other man . . .then he also was given a natural mind . . .he had carnality in him just like any other man as well . . and it was that carnality in him that tried to tempt him into relinquishing his authority in the spirit over to the throne of his flesh . . . that just fits on so many levels.

[Zeek]

the vagus nerve starts in the brain and transverses to the stomach.  This article is very interesting, takes a bit to get through;

re; "out of the belly"


http://www.gem-international.org/dayspring/Men%20as%20Trees%20Walking.pdf

[Cardinal]

To much is out of place with that principle.  However, if you see that Jesus was in the flesh . . .just like any other man . . .then he also was given a natural mind . . .he had carnality in him just like any other man as well . . and it was that carnality in him that tried to tempt him into relinquishing his authority in the spirit over to the throne of his flesh . . . that just fits on so many levels.

:cloud9: Yes, it does, doesn't it? (smile) Blessings....

[claypot]

For me seeing Scripture must make sense and apply to my life in every way. I see God as being just fiesty and sly enough to tell me about myself in just such mysterious ways as He does in Scripture.

When I looked at Scripture mostly in a physical literal way there were just too many things that make for good history and bedtime stories but way too much that couldn't apply to me and all my fellow humans right now as I walk through this sleep we call life.

Death caused sin, sin caused death is a good example. It matters not to me if I look at this in a physical literal way because death and sin are here, nothing I can do about it. But within my being I see sin operating and I see death as a result. The Good News ofcourse is that I see a divine essence operating within too that is moving my conscience and feelings and thoughts and whatever and destroying sin and death, the works of the devil.

I like bedtime stories and history and even good Bible debate but when all is said and done I put such things on a 'shelf' and go on with my life while if I pick up something that tells me right now how to 'get to Heaven'. I grab on to it with a grip that is like holding on to a life saving device in a emergency.

Also, like I said before and Nathan brought forth again, questions from people like Tony are great as they bring so much out into the open that needs to be brought out. I also like to be proven wrong. I do not like waste in my life. Something that baffles me to no end is how when someone is shown that their reasonings have got to be faulty, they hang on to them anyway and can even ignore real contradictions and go have a ham sandwich. When I am presented with a contradiction to what I believe I literally cannot sleep or eat until I find some kind of real answer. Let me say, questions I put forth to myself like 'Was there a 'time' when there was nothing and if there was, how could something come out of nothing and if there was always something, how can that be'. Questions like these drive me nuts. By the way I have a kind of answer to this question so I do eat and sleep!

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I know what you mean cp. When something is bugging me that doesn't "compute", I usually can't get it off my mind until it's reconciled in light of everything else He's made life in me. I "chew the cud" over and over and over, until I wear myself out or He gives me the answer, whichever comes first, LOL. I waited 2 years on Him to tell me why the bones had life. Blessings....

[claypot]

:cloud9: I know what you mean cp. When something is bugging me that doesn't "compute", I usually can't get it off my mind until it's reconciled in light of everything else He's made life in me. I "chew the cud" over and over and over, until I wear myself out or He gives me the answer, whichever comes first, LOL. I waited 2 years on Him to tell me why the bones had life. Blessings....

Bones, life....tell me more, sounds intriguing.

I waited literally over 10 years to get an explanation of 'Many will say to me........and I will say, Depart....' and it's sister verse 'Why do you call me Lord and do not......'

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Wow. Now THAT'S diligence, LOL. He's never given me any revelation on the scriptures you've quoted. But what He gave me was in reply to my bugging Him about why when they threw the dead boy on the bones, did he spring to life? What was it about the bones?

Then one night, for no apparent reason, while praying for someone at bible study, He dropped the reason into my spirit. It was because (spiritually speaking) there was NO FLESH on them. Once the circumcision of our hearts removes the flesh, we are as those bones, then bone of His bone. Then when He completely clothes us with HIS flesh, we are flesh of His flesh = glorified body. Blessings...

[sheila]

 Hi,

   I have a little different outlook re; Jesus carnality being flesh.

  He didn't have carnality in Him, because He was born from

above. What satan did was try and plant his carnality[beastly

thought] into the mind of Christ...there by sin entering into his

flesh.and outworking into action

  We who were born in sin[or from below] have this carnality

already in our flesh..we inherited it from Adam..it was already

 entered in to our flesh..so satan could draw out sin works from

our flesh by putting the thoughts[carnal] into our minds more

.easily.

  Jesus could say in re to satan..he has nothing in me.

  That temptation came without..just as in the garden it was

without their bodies to start with...then entered in when the

thought was planted and accepted and acted on.

    Adam and Eve were 'naked" but not aware...they were

vulnerable to the entry of corruption into them..not clothed

with the Glory of God,INCORRUPTION of their vessels.

  God did this on purpose to serve as a lure for satan..for

satan would have to leave the incorruptible heavenly realm to

work out his evil desires of his heart on vulnerable vessels to

carry out his evil works.Michael and His angels sucessfully

 fought off the thoughts of 'accusing' mankind before God..

  [Jude 9,Rev 12;7] and threw satan out.



    Mankinds corruptible flesh is neutral[weak] Not so the  

heavenly bodies..negative spirit force does not work through  

 them or on them..they must leave their proper dwelling places

 to do evil through a vessel that will accept the negative.

  You may ask, what about satans angels..you see satan is not

of God's seed..God's seed can not sin...God put this negative

spirit force in an incorruptible vessel..the vessel looked just

 like God's other angelic sons,satan is death,the opposite of

 God. God also placed His seed in corruptible vessels on earth..

 that can accept both positive and negative spirit motivation.

   This Holy seed can not bear fruit until it falls to the

    earth and dies any fruit of that vessel comes from a source  

other than that dormant seed that is germinating. So therefore

  either it is God's Holy spirit doing the works in you,or satans

negative spirit working in you. He keeps us blameless and

 spotless in this way.It is how He will remove all shame

 of sin from mankind.We will all praise Him for this work of HIS

HANDS FOR WE ARE WONDERFULLY AND FEARFULLY MADE.

   Jesus Christ despised [Hebrews 12;2]the shame that death

should also touch his vessel on the cross. The shame of our

nakedness is covered by Christ's garment now,but with

 'the BEST ROBE' when we rise to heaven,our incorruptible

 new spirit  body in God's Glory

  Fallen man's flesh has negative in it already..and easily is

drawn out by negative spirit. Jesus flesh[being without

negative in it[sinless] was not drawn out as easily..but more

able to repel it[more resistant due to such POSITIVE SPIRIT

 FORCE.   We have a 'token' of that spirit..which increases our

 resistance and helps us in this spiritual battle.

  He came in flesh, and did face temptation by satan and

 overcome..yes,His flesh was subjected unto death on the cross

 but He as representantive of the spirit man born from above..

  also realized mankind dwelt in a weaker vessel.


  This is part of the 'mystery' that was spoken of regarding

 the union of husband and wife..dwelling with them in

  knowledge,as a weaker vessel.

  Bringing 'every thought' into subjection to Christ goes a long

 way to helping us refuse these negative spiritual imputs.

    Being 'Born from Above" as the Lamb of God..Father

  guarded him with angels..descending and ascending...

  to keep Him  on every side and prepare Him in everyway

 to do the will of His Father and break up the works of satan.

   Due to this fact,satan tried to get him to test God in

  the matter on His ability to keep him.It was really

satan himself testing God's ability to keep him.

  He was led of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted..

  He instructs us to pray...lead me NOT into temptation

  He was in want of bread during His temptation..but

 during the 40 days of fasting prescribed He knew  He should

 live by every word from Father,after temptation angels came at

 the appointed time and ministered to him.

  Satan bribed Him with all the kingdoms of the world,which

was His inheritance anyway..in Father's time...NOW, for one

 act  of worship..one compromise of His Father's will...

   In SOS she comes walking up out of the wilderness

 leaning on her beloved...we must not lean on our own

 understanding...He has shown us the proper response

 to satan's temptation in the wilderness..that comes after we

  receive the Holy spirit.  There may be a time when we are

 in 'want' of spiritual bread or direction.At these times..stand

with what you have already been given. Wait on the Lord..

  do not turn 'stones' into bread[for not a stone will be left

 upon a stone] His Holy spirit/angels will come and feed you

  spiritually.

   Do not use the spiritual gift in you to receive   all the

Kingdoms of the world,and the glory of them.Leave off seeking

glory in this world. Your Father will do all these things He

 promised in His own time. Don't you realize the world will hate

you,just like they did Jesus?.Unless you compromise,and be

 like the world..then the world will love it's own.Babylon

  sought the glory of all the kingdoms of the earth.

    Do not 'test' the Lord in the wilderness of this earth

   for in actuality it is satan 'testing' God's ability to break

  up his works.

  Rev 13  The Beast to Which the Dragon gives his power...

 is none other that satan planting his evil desires/thoughts in

mankinds flesh.........and he had power to give life to the image

of the beast  .

 Rev14  The Lamb and His company

 and they sung as it were a new song before the throne,

 and before the four beasts and the elders, and no man

 could learn that song but the 144,000,which were redeemed

from the earth  ...and in their mouth was found no GUILE; for

they are without fault before the throne of GOD .

   These comprise the New Heavens that descend ,

 these minister unto us the truths of God..and give us God and

 Jesus mind[trUTH/understanding] thoughts through the power

of His Holy

 Spirit...the city has four corners in the earth and four corners

in heaven..it gathers into ONE HOLY CITY- NEW HEAVEN AND

 NEW EARTH...all that has been scattered by the wrath of God

that was upon the old heavens and old earth.

    The accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown out

His fiery WORD

 has burned up and annihilated the lie of carnal/beastly

 understanding[law/condemnation/sacrifice of animals]

  The New Heavens Proclain the Love and Mercy of God and

Jesus for mankind and proclaim their healing, their eating

 from the tree of LIFE proceeding out of the throne of God.

  And of God giving them the free gift of eternal lfe

   Yes, when His children rise to Glory..there will be no shame

  Joel 2;25 And I will restore to you the years that the locusts hath eaten,the cankerworm and the caterpillar and  the palmer-
worm, my great army which I sent among you.

and you shall eat in plenty,and be satisfied,and praise the name of the Lord your God,that has dealt wondrously of you;
and my people shall never be ashamed.

  Now we are clothed in Christs garment to cover our nakedness,it has even been declared to us by the Holy spirit
that all mankind is to be  clothed in it. We are reckoned spotless
and blameless in heaven through Faith in His son.

 

[pneuma]

:cloud9: Wow. Now THAT'S diligence, LOL. He's never given me any revelation on the scriptures you've quoted. But what He gave me was in reply to my bugging Him about why when they threw the dead boy on the bones, did he spring to life? What was it about the bones?

Then one night, for no apparent reason, while praying for someone at bible study, He dropped the reason into my spirit. It was because (spiritually speaking) there was NO FLESH on them. Once the circumcision of our hearts removes the flesh, we are as those bones, then bone of His bone. Then when He completely clothes us with HIS flesh, we are flesh of His flesh = glorified body. Blessings...

:thumbsup: love that sis, thanks, no flesh yahoo :happygrin:

[Tony N]

Dear Bob, Scripture does not agree with that assumption.

Tony, it was not an assumption.  The translation I quoted says exactly what I said.  "...and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

Bob, there is an elipsis after "because." The elipsis is "of death," in other words: "because of death, all sinned."

For instance, the Concordant Literal has it:

Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned -"
Eph . .hw . pantec. . hamarton
on . which . . all . . . sinned

The elipsis above is "the basis of," since "death is the nearest antecedent to "death passed through into all mankind" the most logical way to look at it is "death passed through into all mankind, on the basis of which all sinned."

Paul further proves his point concerning this in Romans 5:19 of Romans by stating:
For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be made just.

It doesn't say they first chose to sin and then death passed through into them. It says that due to what Adam did, they were made sinners. How were they made sinners? Death passed through into them due to what Adam did in 5:12.

It also does not say that all mankind first chose to sin and due to that they were made sinners.

Bob, if Romans 5:12 says "all die due to all sinning then Paul's whole point is lost in 5:12.

Let's expand on the last part of the above verse: "for that all did sin." Expanded: [and it is] for [that reason of death passing through] that all did sin.

In other words, sin entered the world when Adam sinned. After Adam sinned death began its process in Adam. And since all mankind came from Adam, death passed through into all mankind. Based upon death passing through into all mankind, all sinned.

Bob replied:

That's one way to expand it.  Every translation I read that expands it, expands it as "because all sinned" or equivalent.

• NKJV Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
• NLT When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned
• NIV Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–
• ESV Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
• NASB Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
• RSV Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned
• HNV Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; and so death passed to all men, because all sinned

Tony wrote: It does not say that "all sinned and due to that, death passed through into all mankind."

Bob wrote: That is exactly what all the translations that expand it say.

That doesn't mean they are correct.

King James has:
(KJV)  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Where "for that" means "for  that [reason] all have sinned."

(YLT)  because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that [reason] all did sin;

What is "that reason"? What is "for that"? "for that death passed through into all men, all have sinned."
It says death passed through into all mankind in 5:12 and in 5:18 it says that all mankind were MADE sinners due to what Adam did. It doesn't say they chose to become sinners due to what Adam did.

Tony wrote: Paul is saying that sin was not even being taken into account because the law of Moses was not given yet, nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses (before the law was given).

Bob's reply: Something is wrong with that theory Tony, God is taking sin into account here...

• Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

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• Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

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• Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

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• Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

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• Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

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• Genesis 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

No, nothing is wrong with Paul's thought. Obviously the above verses you quoted does not contradict what Paul wrote in 5:13,14. obviously Paul knew all about all the people who were killed in the Old Testament including the flood in Noah's day. Those people were sinning due to death operating in them. They couldn't be dying because they were breaking the law of Moses because the law of Moses was given many years later.

Paul stated:

"for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;" nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be."
(Rom 5:13-14)

Bob, Paul just said that until law came by Moses, sin was in the world. People were sinning. Yet sin was not taken into account where there is no law. In other words, the just penalty according to the law was the death penalty for Cain slaying Able. Yet God just told him he would be a wonderer. Yet Cain and all those people still died. They didn't die because they sinned. They sinned because they had death passed through into them due to what Adam did.
God didn't kill the Sodomites due to breaking the law of Moses since the law was not given yet. So what law could they break?

Bob wrote: I would say that Paul is saying that even though the law had not been explcitly spelled out until Moses, death STILL reigned through sin.

You reversed the order. Actually in 5:21 it says taht "Sin reigns in death." It is in the realm of death that Sin, as an evil monarch which all mankind are enslaved to, reigns.

Tony wrote: So this proves that death did not come because everyone sins but due to Adam's transgression.

For me, it would take alot more than what you presented to prove that the wages of death is sin.
Bob

Paul did not say "The wages of death is sin." He said "the rations of sin is death."
Concerning "the wages of sin is death", in Romans 6:20 all are slaves of Sin. Slaves do not receive wages but rations. It is more properly "The rations of sin is death." Slaves didn't work for wages but for rations. And this has to do with the walk of the saint, not the sinner.

[Tony N]

:cloud9: Wow. Now THAT'S diligence, LOL. He's never given me any revelation on the scriptures you've quoted. But what He gave me was in reply to my bugging Him about why when they threw the dead boy on the bones, did he spring to life? What was it about the bones?

Then one night, for no apparent reason, while praying for someone at bible study, He dropped the reason into my spirit. It was because (spiritually speaking) there was NO FLESH on them. Once the circumcision of our hearts removes the flesh, we are as those bones, then bone of His bone. Then when He completely clothes us with HIS flesh, we are flesh of His flesh = glorified body. Blessings...

Cardinal, that is rich. Thanks! You just made my day.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You're welcome pneuma ......good to see you around these parts again. And so are you Tony.....And Sheila, that was some deep meat; gonna have to read that several times, but I like what I "hear" so far.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

[Molly]

God also placed His seed in corruptible vessels on earth..

  that can accept both positive and negative spirit motivation.

    This Holy seed can not bear fruit until it falls to the

     earth and dies any fruit of that vessel comes from a source 

other than that dormant seed that is germinating. So therefore

   either it is God's Holy spirit doing the works in you,or satans

negative spirit working in you. He keeps us blameless and

  spotless in this way.It is how He will remove all shame

  of sin from mankind.

This is something that I have been struggling with and I've come to the same conclusion, too--namely that man is a carrier of spirit, that he does not have his own, other than that spirit which gives the life of breathing in and out, which all the animals have.   But, he is either carrying the Holy Spirit or the spirit of demons, which is why when Jesus swept the house clean of demons, twice as many demons came back--because the house was now clean and empty.  Thanks.

The question is--can the seed of Christ fall to the earth and die, while we are yet alive?  Doesn't Paul say we are buried with Jesus in his death?  Therefore, couldn't we be also resurrected with him while we live?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  Without going into any elaborate explanations at this time, I just want to say an emphatic, YES. Sheila, where are you......

[sheila]

  Re Can the seed of Christ fall to the earth and die,

 while we are yet alive. Yes..that is what He did when He lay

 down His life on the cross for His freinds..he did it for our

benefit.He had the life in Himself, we don't because the seed

is dormant til the death of our corrupt flesh. That is why He said we

must eat his flesh and drink his blood. His seed..when it raised

up to heaven,bore much fruit[even the Holy spirit which was

poured out]on our flesh

  We don;t have any righteous works of our own down here..His

 are credited to us. In the same manner sinworks worked

through our body are credited to satan in the judgement.

     Rev 22;11 He that is unjust,let him be unjust still and he which is filthy let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous let him be righteous still and He that is Holy let him be holy still.

  It is part of the mystery of godliness and lawlessness that is revealed. It is not that Jesus is saying 'to bad for those sinners'

   We can have life NOW through partakings with Christ's spirit
  but it is Christ's life in us, not our own at present..we have
no righteousness in our own flesh..because sin dwells in it
it is as filthy rags we are clothed in. Righteousness is credited through FAITH in His son and the spirit of Love motivating us
 to good works

    There is Good and there is Evil..and God;s Judgement
 is just. When we jdge by appearance instead of God's judgement we can call unclean what God has cleansed.

  Man has truly ate from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil..and it brings the death of our flesh..for good
and evil entered into our flesh from that fruit of disobediance.

  The tree of Life is not like that..Our Father has life in Himself
 andso does His seed..it is eternal and can not sin..it may
 be planted in a clay vessel[dust of the earth] that may
 also receive seed of the enemy[parable wheat/weeds]
  But when it dies and  is raised up to Heaven it bears good fruit.

   Certain revelations Father saved back for the end, He has often not let his right hand know what His left hand has been doing. At this time He wants children of understanding
     
  Son of Man ,Seed of the Woman]bespeaks of the incorruptible seed in man that rises up unto heaven. As in Adam all die,so to in Christ all shall live..it is this Holy seed that rises up and
 shows itself incorruptible..the progency of God..death
 has no hold on it..though it must fall to the earth and die.

    Hope I was clear enough

   Some will say "what about Rev 22;12  and behold,I come quickly and my reward is with me,to give every man according as his work shall be"

   First man Adam..satan/sin works.=.death

  Christ= God's works  of the tree of LIFE=eternal life  

  these are the only two works and their rewards

[Molly]

That is why He said we

must eat his flesh and drink his blood. His seed..when it raised

up to heaven,bore much fruit[even the Holy spirit which was

poured out]on our flesh

So could we then say that Abraham, the former pagan gentile, has been given the Holy Spirit and the resurrected Christ so that he could now believe and obey God? 


Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


That Abram not only has the seed but that it is germinated/resurrected at his meeting with with the High Priest,  Melchizedek?  Because how can man have righteousness without Christ?



18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

--Gen 14




Oddly enough, the way that sentence is written in the KJV, the descriptor, "possessor of heaven and earth," qualifies Abram, not God.