Natural and Spiritual

[Taffy]

Back to my question:

If, according to some of you, antichrist is dwelling in you, in the temple, and this somehow is the fulfillment of him sitting in the temple proving that he is God by miracles, how have you been creating miracles proving that you are God to deceive the elect?

No Worries Bro :icon_flower:

[bobf]

Back to my question:

If, according to some of you, antichrist is dwelling in you, in the temple, and this somehow is the fulfillment of him sitting in the temple proving that he is God by miracles, how have you been creating miracles proving that you are God to deceive the elect?

Hi Tony.... not sure which verse you are referring to regarding the "miracles" part.

How about just an example of that spirit:

Daniel 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

The king was not possessed by the devil ala The Exorcist.  The king was not running around deceiving the elect by performing physical miracles.   The king himself was elect and yet was also presently deceived by the spirit of antichrist within him.  By what miracle did this spirit deceive him?  By the miracle of the king having built such a majestic kingdom all by his lonesome, when in truth God had built that kingdom and handed it to the king.

God ordained that:
1. That spirit within the king's heart would be destroyed through seven times of judgment
2. The king would receive back his kingdom (which is why I called the king "elect")
3. The king would have a new heart that exalted God as God and knew for sure that the king was no god.

Here is that spirit again:

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

The pharisee falsely believes himself to be better than others on account of himself.  Self worship, self glorification, scorning others as less than.

Anyone who has received something from God... whatever gift, whatever "kingdom"... whether insight or knowledge or ability to speak or ability to comfort others.... whatever gift... if that person puffs himself up and says to himself "hey, looky me... looky what I built.... I'm somethin' special... etc." ...  that person has the same spirit and is on the same path as king Neb.

[Tony N]

What I find interesting is that we are never told that we have the antichrist or the man of lawlessness dwelling in us.

Jesus told his followers that "Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
then let those in Judea flee into the mountains (Mat 24:15,16).

He didn't say, When you see the abomination of desolation in your bodies then flee to the mountains.

We also are never taught that Satan dwells in us. The holy spirit will not share space with Satan. Jesus said if that were the case then the house would be divided and fall (or something to that effect.)

[bobf]

What I find interesting is that we are never told that we have the antichrist or the man of lawlessness dwelling in us.

We also are never taught that Satan dwells in us. The holy spirit will not share space with Satan. Jesus said if that were the case then the house would be divided and fall (or something to that effect.)

Romans 7
1. Evil is present with Paul, sin dwells in Paul
2. Paul delights in God's law in the inward man

Paul's inward man was "sharing space" with evil and sin.  Where did that evil in Paul come from?

Jesus told his followers that "Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
then let those in Judea flee into the mountains (Mat 24:15,16).

He didn't say, When you see the abomination of desolation in your bodies then flee to the mountains.

Tony... you are operating from an assumption of literalism... that if God wants to say "in your bodies" that God must say "in your bodies".  That assumption is proven to be unreliable since Christ said "destroy this temple..." not "destroy this body"

[Tony N]

Hi Bob, thanks for your good words.

I don't see how equating "sin dwelling in our flesh" with "the antichrist making the abomination in the sanctuary and proving that he is God."

Am I to flee to the mountains if I see the antichrist in my flesh? What good would that do for me? Since the antichrist would still be with me. I could never run far enough to get away from him.

[claypot]

What I find interesting is that we are never told that we have the antichrist or the man of lawlessness dwelling in us.

We also are never taught that Satan dwells in us. The holy spirit will not share space with Satan. Jesus said if that were the case then the house would be divided and fall (or something to that effect.)

Romans 7
1. Evil is present with Paul, sin dwells in Paul
2. Paul delights in God's law in the inward man

Paul's inward man was "sharing space" with evil and sin.  Where did that evil in Paul come from?

Jesus told his followers that "Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
then let those in Judea flee into the mountains (Mat 24:15,16).

He didn't say, When you see the abomination of desolation in your bodies then flee to the mountains.

Tony... you are operating from an assumption of literalism... that if God wants to say "in your bodies" that God must say "in your bodies".  That assumption is proven to be unreliable since Christ said "destroy this temple..." not "destroy this body"

I am seeing something from you Tony and it is very good. You ask questions that cause this topic to go on and on which, to me, is a very good thing. You make people go back to the basics and repeat over and over again what has already been said but they do it in new ways because of how you rephrase your questions. Me thinks you must know how most will respond to your questions but you keep asking them which I believe to be of God because I am learning so much from the new ways many are saying the same thing to you.

You are a very good teacher in this way, much like the Lord Himself. You are teaching by leading people to analyze their beliefs via your questions. Like God asking Adam where he was in the garden. God knew where Adam was yet a very basic question like that would make a person think about where he is at, don't you think?

Remember no one is saying the physical literal does not take place. They are saying that when the physical does happen it is the acting out of spiritual (Kingdom) truths.

cp

[bobf]

Hi Bob, thanks for your good words.

I don't see how equating "sin dwelling in our flesh" with "the antichrist making the abomination in the sanctuary and proving that he is God."

Am I to flee to the mountains if I see the antichrist in my flesh? What good would that do for me? Since the antichrist would still be with me. I could never run far enough to get away from him.

If it's not a literal "temple" or a literal "man of lawlessness" sitting in a building, then it would not be a literal "fleeing to the mountains" either would it?

[claypot]

Hi Bob, thanks for your good words.

I don't see how equating "sin dwelling in our flesh" with "the antichrist making the abomination in the sanctuary and proving that he is God."

Am I to flee to the mountains if I see the antichrist in my flesh? What good would that do for me? Since the antichrist would still be with me. I could never run far enough to get away from him.

Tony, I think that I can guarantee you that if you run to the mountains, which I see to be the Holy Place within you in this context, that if you continually do this the anti christ within you will be defeated. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus, the Rock, the Mountain we are to flee into.

If you can't relate 'sin dwelling in our flesh' with 'a mans enemies are those of his own household' then you just can't do it but I see no other way it can be seen and can't believe you really can't either.

Do you really think that Jesus wants us to run to Him and say things like "Jesus, now you can accept me because I just came from my house where I told my Mom and Dad and brothers and sisters just how much I hate them and how detestable they are to me.  Aren't you proud of me?'

Remember Tony, you are a son or Father or brother to or of someone.

I really think if we said this to Jesus, He would tell us in effect to depart from Him because we are not really hearing what He is trying to communicate. Jesus had only so much time for those who willingly remained in the dark. He knew until God chose to reveal Himself within a person speaking of spiritual things was useless.

cp

[claypot]

Tony, you wrote....

What I find interesting is that we are never told that we have the antichrist or the man of lawlessness dwelling in us.

Tony, we are told and then we are told.

It is often more in the hearing than in the being told, don't you think?

cp

[Zeek]

If you can't relate 'sin dwelling in our flesh' with 'a mans enemies are those of his own household' then you just can't do it but I see no other way it can be seen and can't believe you really can't either.

Hi Cp, I would love to hear how you see these verses?? 

Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Why do you keep seeing "flesh" in you?? 


2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 


Present tense verses. 


I personally see real fault in that we are part flesh, part spirit (sounds like mixing of old wine with new). 


and i think in an earlier verse, bobf talked about Romans 7, "sin dwelling in me",

for me;


that is man under law, and we are rescued from this per end of Romans 7, and Romans 8. 



where i'm at for now, I refuse to go back, to look back and see a man of flesh. 

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.



HE IS THE END. 


Do you only see "the salvation of your souls" as future, not attainable NOW??

[Zeek]

2Co 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

[bobf]

If it's not a literal "temple" or a literal "man of lawlessness" sitting in a building, then it would not be a literal "fleeing to the mountains" either would it?

Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Whatever "fleeing to the mountains" means, the reason for fleeing is BECAUSE "these be the days of vengeance" written about throughout scirpture.  The purpose of "fleeing to the mountains" is to to escape the days of vengeance.  Right?  So by examining "the days of vengeance" throughout scripture and how to escape from "the midst of" those days we might get an idea about what "fleeing" means and maybe who it applies to etc.

[bobf]

and i think in an earlier verse, bobf talked about Romans 7, "sin dwelling in me",

for me; that is man under law, and we are rescued from this per end of Romans 7, and Romans 8.

Zeek what do you see as the defintion of being "carnally minded" or "in the flesh" or "walk... after the flesh" per Romans 8.  The reason I ask is: For any person who is any of those things, Romans 8 would not yet apply to them and they would still be under Romans 7, right?

[claypot]

If you can't relate 'sin dwelling in our flesh' with 'a mans enemies are those of his own household' then you just can't do it but I see no other way it can be seen and can't believe you really can't either.

Hi Cp, I would love to hear how you see these verses?? 

Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Why do you keep seeing "flesh" in you?? 


2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 


Present tense verses. 


I personally see real fault in that we are part flesh, part spirit (sounds like mixing of old wine with new). 


and i think in an earlier verse, bobf talked about Romans 7, "sin dwelling in me",

for me;


that is man under law, and we are rescued from this per end of Romans 7, and Romans 8. 



where i'm at for now, I refuse to go back, to look back and see a man of flesh. 

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.



HE IS THE END. 


Do you only see "the salvation of your souls" as future, not attainable NOW??

Zeek, I see corruption and mortality, not so much in me as you say, but still a presence in my very being. I also see incorruption and immortality too.

I very much see the salvation of my soul as a very current event right now as well as a future reality.

I agree with you that we are not PART this and PART that. We are one essence. We are part of a greater essence and there are other essences that make us, us. Within my essence there is the Kingdom of God and enemies of this Kingdom as I believe Jesus taught.

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the  kingdom  of God is within you. lk17.21

and

and the enemies of a man are those of his household. mt10.36

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. rom8.6

I see this as partly saying that those who see things primarily as natural or fleshly are walking in the flesh and not in the spirit. This is 'not having the Spirit of Christ' or to put it another way, it is not 'getting' what Jesus means when He talks. Eat my flesh, Jesus said. Pluck out your eye, He said. Come on people, listen to me, I think Jesus is saying. Listen to me with spiritual ears.

Zeek, don't go back and 'look' to your flesh, always look to Jesus the spiritual. Tis true, we should strive to get to the place where we know Jesus not according to the flesh or physical literal, but know Him only according to the spirit.

cp

[bobf]

Why do you keep seeing "flesh" in you?? 

Why did Paul see flesh in men?

1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

If I'm walking in the Spririt then I am not fulfilling the lust of the flesh

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But since I'm often still fulfilling the lust of the flesh, then I know from the above verse, that at thoses times at least, I am not walking in the Spirit and the victory in Romans 8 doesn't apply, has not arrived yet.

Ever see any variance or strife around here?

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies.

Yes, God says those things in "past tense" because God has predesintated us to be conformed to the image of His Son.  God declares the end from the beginning, calls those things which ARE NOT as though they were.  It's a "done deal" even if not done in actuality yet.

[claypot]

Bob, Bob, Bob. That's good eating!  :thumbsup:

[bobf]

Bob, Bob, Bob. That's good eating!  :thumbsup:

TY CP!   :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, Amen, bobf, He calls those things that are not as though they were. This is why the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, because the root of the spirit of prophecy IS to call those things that are not as though they were. So in essence, He was/is prophesying over us those things that are not YET, as though they were, because the Spirit dwells outside of time, and so in the Spirit, THEY ARE ALREADY.

We, on the other hand, at least 2/3 of us (body and soul), dwell in time. Standing in faith then, (to take the "promised land" = the promises of God/on the MOUNTAIN TOPS) is simply placing one foot on what God has spoken to us by His Spirit (outside of time), BELIEVING, and the natural will then manifest what was spoken by the Spirit, because heaven/Spirit rules in the affairs of men. This is bringing heaven/Spirit and earth/flesh into agreement/covenant, because everything is out of course. Didn't He say, fear not, it is your Father's good pleasure to bring you the kingdom?

Planets "walk" in courses (science calls them orbits), so did the priests serve in their courses, remitting sins by the laying on of hands, and then slaughtering the "offending" flesh, which in essence, was putting "one world" back on course, which is walking in the Spirit/right relationship with God.

What we many times do not realize that we are the Word made flesh also. That sounds shocking on the surface of it, but if you know that ALL the waters below the firmament (heaven) ARE the Word (which is the Spirit of God) made flesh, it's not so hard to fathom. ALL creation is His mirror, He poured Himself into it to create it, and therefore it cannot BE (manifest His nature and glory which are His attributes) anything less than what He IS (in the Spirit). Man was made in His image, but so was the creation, only it is fragments of His image, put there to witness some aspect of His glory, thus ALL the heavens (this is the first of the 3 heaven's Paul spoke of) declare (or show openly) His glory.

Didn't intend to go here this morning, but oh well  :dontknow: :happygrin: Blessings....

[Tony N]

Hi Bob, thanks for your good words.

I don't see how equating "sin dwelling in our flesh" with "the antichrist making the abomination in the sanctuary and proving that he is God."

Am I to flee to the mountains if I see the antichrist in my flesh? What good would that do for me? Since the antichrist would still be with me. I could never run far enough to get away from him.

If it's not a literal "temple" or a literal "man of lawlessness" sitting in a building, then it would not be a literal "fleeing to the mountains" either would it?

And Jesus, the disciples, and the Israelites are all just figments of Jesus' wild imagination. Wait, it wasn't Jesus who told the non-existent disciples to spiritually fee to mountains which are not mountains at all. That was just Matthew making up a story of kingdom truths so that we would see beyond the story to what might really be?

But cp says these things will literally come to pass. I agree with cp on that. If we are going to "spiritualize" everything concerning the antichrist, then we must "spiritualize everything in Matthew 24 and 25. I find that not very convincing.

[Molly]

Hi Bob, thanks for your good words.

I don't see how equating "sin dwelling in our flesh" with "the antichrist making the abomination in the sanctuary and proving that he is God."

Am I to flee to the mountains if I see the antichrist in my flesh? What good would that do for me? Since the antichrist would still be with me. I could never run far enough to get away from him.

If it's not a literal "temple" or a literal "man of lawlessness" sitting in a building, then it would not be a literal "fleeing to the mountains" either would it?

And Jesus, the disciples, and the Israelites are all just figments of Jesus' wild imagination. Wait, it wasn't Jesus who told the non-existent disciples to spiritually fee to mountains which are not mountains at all. That was just Matthew making up a story of kingdom truths so that we would see beyond the story to what might really be?

But cp says these things will literally come to pass. I agree with cp on that. If we are going to "spiritualize" everything concerning the antichrist, then we must "spiritualize everything in Matthew 24 and 25. I find that not very convincing.

I tend to agree with you.  I have seen people go that far.  Jesus was not a real man--he is a spiritual principal.  Then my eyes roll back in my head. lol

All you have to do it look at the world to see these things playing themselves out in four dimensions.

[bobf]

And Jesus, the disciples, and the Israelites are all just figments of Jesus' wild imagination. Wait, it wasn't Jesus who told the non-existent disciples to spiritually fee to mountains which are not mountains at all. That was just Matthew making up a story of kingdom truths so that we would see beyond the story to what might really be?

But cp says these things will literally come to pass. I agree with cp on that. If we are going to "spiritualize" everything concerning the antichrist, then we must "spiritualize everything in Matthew 24 and 25. I find that not very convincing.

Tony.... it does not follow that IF Christ chose to explain things in figures without explicitly saying so, that neither He nor His disciples existed.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Maybe it's me, but I don't think anyone is denying the natural exists (it is the body and the feet, to be exact), but only that we are to focus on the SPIRITUAL (the Head which is Christ) applications, as hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh.

God is interested in building HIS kingdom IN US (as opposed to all the kingdoms men are building out there, including CHRISTIAN men), ruling and reigning IN US, before anything is going to be able to be ruled over "out there", as no one is going to get the rod of authority BUT HIM (fully matured) IN US. My  :2c:.....Blessings.....

[Molly]

:cloud9: Maybe it's me, but I don't think anyone is denying the natural exists (it is the body and the feet, to be exact), but only that we are to focus on the SPIRITUAL (the Head which is Christ) applications, as hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh.

God is interested in building HIS kingdom IN US (as opposed to all the kingdoms men are building out there, including CHRISTIAN men), ruling and reigning IN US, before anything is going to be able to be ruled over "out there", as no one is going to get the rod of authority BUT HIM (fully matured) IN US. My  :2c:.....Blessings.....

So do you think that is literally going to happen in this world?  That some day the rod of authority will be given to the body of Christ?  Or does that just happen inside the small group of people who grow up into the head, and it's a personal thing?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: God's pattern is to deal with a firstfruits company in everything, so I think it is FIRST those that are going to be matured into being one with the Head, and then those that remain. Part of the confusion in the church IMO is in that they don't realize that there is a bridegroom company (those to be joined with the Head) AND a bride company ,ie. those He (in a many membered bridegroom company) is coming "back" for. They entered the ark in TWO'S, the foundation of the church is built upon the apostle and prophet, Head and Body, ie. two's are all over the place.

And notice the pattern that God always speaks to the man (Head/firstfruits/spirit) first, whereas as Satan always speaks to the woman (body/soul), bypassing the Head. Blessings....

[claypot]

:cloud9: Maybe it's me, but I don't think anyone is denying the natural exists (it is the body and the feet, to be exact), but only that we are to focus on the SPIRITUAL (the Head which is Christ) applications, as hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh.

God is interested in building HIS kingdom IN US (as opposed to all the kingdoms men are building out there, including CHRISTIAN men), ruling and reigning IN US, before anything is going to be able to be ruled over "out there", as no one is going to get the rod of authority BUT HIM (fully matured) IN US. My  :2c:.....Blessings.....

So do you think that is literally going to happen in this world?  That some day the rod of authority will be given to the body of Christ?  Or does that just happen inside the small group of people who grow up into the head, and it's a personal thing?

Molly, here is my main and only real point and I see it in Cards, Nathans, Bobs, Taffs and so many more. It is this, some things of Scripture will take place and have and are taking place in the flesh, literally. To me though, it just doesn't matter what happened 10 years ago or 20 or 1000 or 2000. It just doesn't. It doesn't affect my life what might happen in the flesh or physical 10 years from now or 20 or 1000 or 2000. What turns my crank is what is going on RIGHT NOW IN ME. This makes me sit up and take notice of every word, jot and tittle of Scripture if it is a writing from God to and about the making of me and all my fellow humans RIGHT NOW.

cp