Natural and Spiritual

[Taffy]

Once my law/mountain is removed, the veil is removed from my mind and the invisible things become made known . .. revelation springs forth "after" I've cast my mountain of knowledge of sin into the crystal sea. . . .

:Sparkletooth:

[Taffy]

Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Kinda see it that way Myself Kim :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: Amen CP. A sea of "glass" means one that is not tossed about by every wind of doctrine. It is calm because it has come into His presence. He calms the seas, does He not? What manner of man is this, they said.

When I first came to the Lord, I was reading the part in there about Him walking on the water, and when I got to the part about the wind, the Lord spoke to me and said, "Satan is nothing but a big bag of wind!"

I cracked up laughing, it was just like He was looking over my shoulder as I read, and made His own comment on the text. Many a thing has been gleaned from that one comment and that one passage of scripture. Blessings....

Ok now I gotcha walking on the water verses sinking is all I needed on that one Card yes I can see that, is it sorta like Ye are from beneath I am from above type thing? Like Jesus was walking over their heads if the waters are peoples? Me and Rose were talking about the tongues of angels and of men. If Paul could talk differently among them that were spiritual but not of the same tongue as those who were more carnal maybe? Because that makes sense to me. As Rose said, "the angels of God ascending and descending upon that latter (being Christ) who speaks both of earthly things and heavenly things.

Am I catching onto it yet?

:cloud9: You got it....... :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

[quote

And just because you get one picture doesnt nessesarily mean you get all of them or how they tie in and thats where I find myself now.

:HeartThrob:
[/quote]

"That's" why we need to assemble ourselves together . . when we, as pieces assemble, we manifest the complete picture of the glory of God . . .maybe that's why I felt such a connection when you came back . . .we've been fitted together . . .you on one side, Taf on the other . . . as that famous saying goes in the movie made in that GREAT state of Iowa, "Field of Dreams" where Kostner says . . "Am I in heaven?"  Being linked with you guys causes me to ask the same thing.

[Zeek]

Card Im curious, what do you do with "No more Sea" then within that similitude?

Fire, I know you asked Card but may I add my 2 cents? I think of these statements of the Spirit.......

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6  And before the throne [there was] a  sea  of  glass  like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.rev4.5

and

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.  2  And I saw as it were a  sea of  glass  mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the  sea of  glass , having the harps of God.  3  And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almightyrev15.1

cp

Thanks Clay, yes good verses, I was sorta thinking in relation to the sea becoming a fire is that Jesus said if you had faith you could say unto this mountain "Be thou CAST into the sea" and we know the Lord descended upon Mt Sinai in FIRE and in revelation a great burning mount (we have not come to) was CAST into the sea. I sorta see that as the Law in a sense. For instance the power of sin = the law, he also casts our sins into the depth of the sea and the "no more sea" which at first became as the blood of a dead man (Adam?) I was seeing Sea in that respect, but I also realize that there are other similitudes I would love to see but if I cant I ask hoping for some scriptures because it sure helps.

Heres an example just so you know where I am coming from on that one portion (its just a copy paste from my study Im not typing this all up or nothing)


The Lord said Luke 12:49 I AM COME to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it BE **ALREADY kindled**?


Exodus 19:18 And **mount Sinai** was altogether on a smoke, because **THE LORD DESCENDED** upon **IT** IN FIRE: and the smoke **thereof** ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.


Jesus said NOW is the time for Judgment

Ephes 4:9 (Now that **he ascended[/b]**, what is it but that he also DESCENDED **FIRST** INTO the lower parts of the earth?

Rose showed me this Mount Sinai....Mount SIN - AI (SIN I).  :grin:

Through THE LAW comes The Knowledge OF SIN.

Mount Sinai represents "the law" (first order)

Ephes 4:10 He that descended **is** THE SAME ALSO** that **ASCENDED UP** far above all heavens, that he might FILL all things.

The law is NOT of faith, we were SHUT UP to the Faith, and Faith is the substance of things hoped for, "Faith IS come" (revealed in us)

Mat 21:21 Verily I say unto you, If ye **have faith**, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall **SAY **unto **this mountain** ***Be thou removed,*** and be thou CAST **INTO** THE SEA; ***it shall be done***


Rev 8:8 And the second angel **SOUNDED**, and **as it were** a great ***mountain burning with fire*** WAS CAST **INTO** THE SEA: and the third part of the sea became blood;

NOT the mount that BURNED with Fire = MT Sinai

Heb 12:18-19 For ye ARE NOT COME unto ***the mount*** that might be touched, and that ***burned with fire***

Again emphasizing "We believe" therefore WE SPEAK to show it again...

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall ***SAY*** unto this mountain """be thou removed """ and be thou CAST into THE SEA; and shall NOT DOUBT in his heart, but shall **BELIEVE** THAT **those things** which **HE SAITH** shall come to pass; he shall have """whatsover"" **HE SAITH**

**We BELIEVE** therefore **WE SPEAK**, that **your faith** (which IS come) may become **effectual** through **the acknowleging of** every good thing" in you in Christ

(GRACE and truth come BY HIM)  :bigGrin:

The angel speaking to Zerubbabel "shoutings"

Zach 4:7 WHO art thou, O great mountain? **before** Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall ***bring forth*** the headstone ~thereof~ ***with SHOUTINGS*** crying, **Grace,** grace **UNTO IT**.


Rev 8:33 And the second angel **SOUNDED**, and as it were A GREAT MOUNTAIN ***burning with FIRE** was CAST into the SEA: and the third part of the sea became blood

Too freaking kool  :grin: Sorry I repeat myself in my notes to remind me where I am (cause I get lost easy)  :grin:

Shut UP under The Law **UNTIL** FAITH IS **REVEALED** BOTH MOUNT SINAI & OUR SINS get CAST into the SEA.

Now faith is come

1Cr 13:2... though I have ALL FAITH, so that I COULD **REMOVE** MOUNTAINS, and ***have not Charity, I am nothing**

We ADD to our faith, our faith worketh by love


**The power of** sin is "The Law" (when we were "in the flesh"). Through the law comes the "knowledge of sin". The law is not of faith and now that faith is come we are not under the tutor (which was meant to lead us to Christ) = Lord have "mercy upon me" = a sinner.

The sins committed under the first covenant represented by "Mt Sinai" is cast into the Sea. Our sins into the depths of the Sea too. For without the law sin is dead and Sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under The Law but under Grace. "Shouts of GRACE to it"

Mic 7:19 He will **turn again**, He will have compassion upon us; He will **SUBDUE** our iniquities ; and THOU wilt CAST " ALL their SINS " INTO the depths of the SEA

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the FIRST heaven and the FIRST earth were passed away; and there was NO MORE SEA. (The New covenant is THE SECOND) He **MADE** the FIRST OLD and ALL things are NEW even the New covenant.


It would make sense (spiritually speaking) if our sins are cast INTO the SEA

THAT there is NO MORE "SEA", **THE FORMER THINGS** are NOT REMEMBERED AS HE REMEMBERS ***OUR SINS*** NO MORE

Which speaks the same here...

Heb 11:17 And their SINS and INIQUITIES will I REMEMBER NO MORE.

Again its after a covenant (the first, which made nothing perfect) is taken away and HE**establishes** the Second (the better hope which DID)

Romans 11:27 For this is MY COVENANT unto them, when **I** shall TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.

1John 3:5 And ye know that He was MANIFESTED to TAKE AWAY OUR SINS; and IN HIM is NO SIN

To be found IN HIM (not having a righteousness of our OWN) by the Law but being FOUND in Him (a righteousness) NOW made manifest WITHOUT THE LAW.

He makes THE FIRST OLD and makes ALL things NEW (even the Second, which is the NEW covenant). Its in THE NEW heaven and NEW earth (we are TO LOOK) and AT those things which are NOT SEEN WHEREIN **DWELLETH** righteousness (2Peter 3:13) Christ (The LORD is our righteousness). Christ IN us. For heaven and earth will pass away BUT NOT MY WORDS (Luke 21:33)

Luke 1:45 And blessed is she that believed: for ***there shall be*** a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. 

Not to the Mount that BURNED with FIRE (Mt Sinai)

Heb 12:28 For ye are NOT COME unto THE MOUNT that might be TOUCHED, and that BURNED with FIRE nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

Heb 12:22 But **YE ARE COME** unto MOUNT SION, and unto the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 To the General assembly and Church of **the firstborn** which are written in heaven, and TO GOD the Judge of all, and to the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT .

THE LAW made NOTHING PERFECT **BUT** the BETTER HOPE DID

Be not MOVED AWAY from *The HOPE of* the gospel, we shall SEE HIM as He IS for as HE IS so are WE (not "out of") but *IN* THIS WORLD, and he that hath **THIS HOPE** in Him PURIFIES HIMSELF as He himself is PURE = The pure in heart SHALL SEE GOD. Its a PURIFYING HOPE, we are saved by HOPE.

Jesus said, in my Fathers House are Many Mansion's

I loved what Rose showed me this is so kool....**Mansions** ... MAN -SIONS ( Mount SION ) JUST MEN made PERFECT. The JUST shall live BY FAITH....That isnt through The Law (the law is NOT of faith) and The Law made NOTHING PERFECT. Faith worketh by LOVE and we are perfected in love.

As long as I can see some connection somewhere I'll follow it through but I dont want to drive you crazy with verses either but "I" do really appreciate them cause Im very interested in the paterns so its helpful to me.

:bgdance: :bgdance:

[Taffy]

[quote

And just because you get one picture doesnt nessesarily mean you get all of them or how they tie in and thats where I find myself now.

:HeartThrob:

"That's" why we need to assemble ourselves together . . when we, as pieces assemble, we manifest the complete picture of the glory of God . . .maybe that's why I felt such a connection when you came back . . .we've been fitted together . . .you on one side, Taf on the other . . . as that famous saying goes in the movie made in that GREAT state of Iowa, "Field of Dreams" where Kostner says . . "Am I in heaven?"  Being linked with you guys causes me to ask the same thing.
[/quote]
Yeah,,NoW thats SINGING..YEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

oh Nate,,,YEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

the sisters KNow..yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

YEHAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

IS yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

so Yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :icon_flower:

so yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa to that post  :icon_flower: matey

[Nathan]

Sorry . . did I sound "pitchy"??? (Simon Cowell's trademark.)

[Taffy]

Card Im curious, what do you do with "No more Sea" then within that similitude?

Fire, I know you asked Card but may I add my 2 cents? I think of these statements of the Spirit.......

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6  And before the throne [there was] a  sea  of  glass  like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.rev4.5

and

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.  2  And I saw as it were a  sea of  glass  mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the  sea of  glass , having the harps of God.  3  And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almightyrev15.1

cp

Thanks Clay, yes good verses, I was sorta thinking in relation to the sea becoming a fire is that Jesus said if you had faith you could say unto this mountain "Be thou CAST into the sea" and we know the Lord descended upon Mt Sinai in FIRE and in revelation a great burning mount (we have not come to) was CAST into the sea. I sorta see that as the Law in a sense. For instance the power of sin = the law, he also casts our sins into the depth of the sea and the "no more sea" which at first became as the blood of a dead man (Adam?) I was seeing Sea in that respect, but I also realize that there are other similitudes I would love to see but if I cant I ask hoping for some scriptures because it sure helps.

Heres an example just so you know where I am coming from on that one portion (its just a copy paste from my study Im not typing this all up or nothing)


The Lord said Luke 12:49 I AM COME to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it BE **ALREADY kindled**?


Exodus 19:18 And **mount Sinai** was altogether on a smoke, because **THE LORD DESCENDED** upon **IT** IN FIRE: and the smoke **thereof** ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.


Jesus said NOW is the time for Judgment

Ephes 4:9 (Now that **he ascended[/b]**, what is it but that he also DESCENDED **FIRST** INTO the lower parts of the earth?

Rose showed me this Mount Sinai....Mount SIN - AI (SIN I).  :grin:

Through THE LAW comes The Knowledge OF SIN.

Mount Sinai represents "the law" (first order)

Ephes 4:10 He that descended **is** THE SAME ALSO** that **ASCENDED UP** far above all heavens, that he might FILL all things.

The law is NOT of faith, we were SHUT UP to the Faith, and Faith is the substance of things hoped for, "Faith IS come" (revealed in us)

Mat 21:21 Verily I say unto you, If ye **have faith**, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall **SAY **unto **this mountain** ***Be thou removed,*** and be thou CAST **INTO** THE SEA; ***it shall be done***


Rev 8:8 And the second angel **SOUNDED**, and **as it were** a great ***mountain burning with fire*** WAS CAST **INTO** THE SEA: and the third part of the sea became blood;

NOT the mount that BURNED with Fire = MT Sinai

Heb 12:18-19 For ye ARE NOT COME unto ***the mount*** that might be touched, and that ***burned with fire***

Again emphasizing "We believe" therefore WE SPEAK to show it again...

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall ***SAY*** unto this mountain """be thou removed """ and be thou CAST into THE SEA; and shall NOT DOUBT in his heart, but shall **BELIEVE** THAT **those things** which **HE SAITH** shall come to pass; he shall have """whatsover"" **HE SAITH**

**We BELIEVE** therefore **WE SPEAK**, that **your faith** (which IS come) may become **effectual** through **the acknowleging of** every good thing" in you in Christ

(GRACE and truth come BY HIM)  :bigGrin:

The angel speaking to Zerubbabel "shoutings"

Zach 4:7 WHO art thou, O great mountain? **before** Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall ***bring forth*** the headstone ~thereof~ ***with SHOUTINGS*** crying, **Grace,** grace **UNTO IT**.


Rev 8:33 And the second angel **SOUNDED**, and as it were A GREAT MOUNTAIN ***burning with FIRE** was CAST into the SEA: and the third part of the sea became blood

Too freaking kool  :grin: Sorry I repeat myself in my notes to remind me where I am (cause I get lost easy)  :grin:

Shut UP under The Law **UNTIL** FAITH IS **REVEALED** BOTH MOUNT SINAI & OUR SINS get CAST into the SEA.

Now faith is come

1Cr 13:2... though I have ALL FAITH, so that I COULD **REMOVE** MOUNTAINS, and ***have not Charity, I am nothing**

We ADD to our faith, our faith worketh by love


**The power of** sin is "The Law" (when we were "in the flesh"). Through the law comes the "knowledge of sin". The law is not of faith and now that faith is come we are not under the tutor (which was meant to lead us to Christ) = Lord have "mercy upon me" = a sinner.

The sins committed under the first covenant represented by "Mt Sinai" is cast into the Sea. Our sins into the depths of the Sea too. For without the law sin is dead and Sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under The Law but under Grace. "Shouts of GRACE to it"

Mic 7:19 He will **turn again**, He will have compassion upon us; He will **SUBDUE** our iniquities ; and THOU wilt CAST " ALL their SINS " INTO the depths of the SEA

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the FIRST heaven and the FIRST earth were passed away; and there was NO MORE SEA. (The New covenant is THE SECOND) He **MADE** the FIRST OLD and ALL things are NEW even the New covenant.


It would make sense (spiritually speaking) if our sins are cast INTO the SEA

THAT there is NO MORE "SEA", **THE FORMER THINGS** are NOT REMEMBERED AS HE REMEMBERS ***OUR SINS*** NO MORE

Which speaks the same here...

Heb 11:17 And their SINS and INIQUITIES will I REMEMBER NO MORE.

Again its after a covenant (the first, which made nothing perfect) is taken away and HE**establishes** the Second (the better hope which DID)

Romans 11:27 For this is MY COVENANT unto them, when **I** shall TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.

1John 3:5 And ye know that He was MANIFESTED to TAKE AWAY OUR SINS; and IN HIM is NO SIN

To be found IN HIM (not having a righteousness of our OWN) by the Law but being FOUND in Him (a righteousness) NOW made manifest WITHOUT THE LAW.

He makes THE FIRST OLD and makes ALL things NEW (even the Second, which is the NEW covenant). Its in THE NEW heaven and NEW earth (we are TO LOOK) and AT those things which are NOT SEEN WHEREIN **DWELLETH** righteousness (2Peter 3:13) Christ (The LORD is our righteousness). Christ IN us. For heaven and earth will pass away BUT NOT MY WORDS (Luke 21:33)

Luke 1:45 And blessed is she that believed: for ***there shall be*** a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. 

Not to the Mount that BURNED with FIRE (Mt Sinai)

Heb 12:28 For ye are NOT COME unto THE MOUNT that might be TOUCHED, and that BURNED with FIRE nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

Heb 12:22 But **YE ARE COME** unto MOUNT SION, and unto the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 To the General assembly and Church of **the firstborn** which are written in heaven, and TO GOD the Judge of all, and to the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT .

THE LAW made NOTHING PERFECT **BUT** the BETTER HOPE DID

Be not MOVED AWAY from *The HOPE of* the gospel, we shall SEE HIM as He IS for as HE IS so are WE (not "out of") but *IN* THIS WORLD, and he that hath **THIS HOPE** in Him PURIFIES HIMSELF as He himself is PURE = The pure in heart SHALL SEE GOD. Its a PURIFYING HOPE, we are saved by HOPE.

Jesus said, in my Fathers House are Many Mansion's

I loved what Rose showed me this is so kool....**Mansions** ... MAN -SIONS ( Mount SION ) JUST MEN made PERFECT. The JUST shall live BY FAITH....That isnt through The Law (the law is NOT of faith) and The Law made NOTHING PERFECT. Faith worketh by LOVE and we are perfected in love.

As long as I can see some connection somewhere I'll follow it through but I dont want to drive you crazy with verses either but "I" do really appreciate them cause Im very interested in the paterns so its helpful to me.

:bgdance: :bgdance:

Steady Zeek...cant have any Micheal Jacksons  Dancing.., thats My forte. :laughing7:

I missed this Post..Gonna save it the Morrow..beddies Time Bro for me :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Sorry . . did I sound "pitchy"??? (Simon Cowell's trademark.)

:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

[claypot]

Fire: Hey that thing on "God is not the Author of confusion" is not to be misunderstood with "misunderstanding" someone.

I hear ya. I was just saying for someone (Someone) who is not an author of confusion to put forth writings and a world and a church that is filled with much (to say the least) confusion seems contradictory doesn't it? No disrespect to God here, just venting.

What do ya think?

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Fire, I'm so lost in this thread that I can't even find where I know you asked me about the scripture in Job, to quote you, LOL  :mshock:

Anyway, if you haven't found it already, here it is....

Job 3:25 - For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

[peacemaker]

RESTORATION is that which comes from the Power of God, where there is No BUILDING, No PREACHING, No HYMNBOOKS, No CHOIRS, No ORGANS, No COLLECTI0N PLATES, No FORTY MINUTE SERMONS, and most of all NO SOLICITATION!

Now think of that for a moment ...  THIS IS REVIVAL!  :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie:

Wherever there is a manifestation of the Holiness of God, there will also be the revelation of Christ, like Paul on the way to Damascus.

Peacemaker

[peacemaker]

"We never bite the hand that feeds us."

AMEN SISTER! :boogie:

[Tony N]

This is concerning "the Dead" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[/b]
Some might say the death is "spiritual death" but some might say it is a "figurative death."

Hi Tony, My nephew asked me about
1Pet. 4: 6 in that it seems to fly in the face of soul sleep.  Can you give me an
explanation of this verse so I could help him in his discussions with his mainstream
friends.  He is defending the truth that we are reposing when we die, but he, nor I can
explain this verse.  Can you or Dean give some light on this?  I couldn't find anything
written on it besides the commentary, and I have difficulty understanding what A.E.K.
says there.  Thanks, Ted

O.K. Ted, there is a real simple answer to the 1 Peter 4:6 problem concerning "the dead."
Let's look at the context first:

1Pe 4:1-6 Christ, then, having suffered for our sakes in flesh, you also arm yourselves
with the same thought, for he who is suffering in flesh has ceased his sins, (2) 2 by no
means still to spend the rest of his lifetime in the flesh in human desires, but in the will
of God." (3) For sufficient is the time which has passed by to have effected the
intention of the nations, having gone on in wantonness, lusts, debauches, revelries,
drinking bouts, and illicit idolatries, (4) while they are thinking it strange of you not to
race together into the same puddle of profligacy, calumniating you;" (5) who shall be
rendering an account to Him Who is holding Himself in readiness to judge the living and
the dead. (6) For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be
judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in
spirit."

The one who "spends the rest of his lifetime . . . in the will of God" (vs.2) is alive (alive
to God).
The ones who are doing the things of the flesh mentioned in verse 3 and 4 are dead (to
God).
The evangel is brought to those who were dead . . . (to God) in Peter's day. Though they
were alive, they were really "dead to God." Just as Jesus said "let the dead be
entombing the dead" He was saying, let those who are dead (to God) be entombing those
who really are dead. He told the person "Yet you follow Me." If he would have followed
Christ he would have been *alive* to God. Verse 5 above is about the judging of those
who are living (to God) and those who are dead (to God) by their living in the
debaucheries etc. Those who were dead to God, who were also evangelized were running
to the puddle of profilgacy.

The two widows, one living, one dead:
1Ti 5:5 Now one really a widow, and alone, relies on God and is remaining in petitions
and prayers night and day."1Ti 5:6 Yet she who is a prodigal, though living, is dead (to
God)."

Notice the widow who relies on God and remains in petitions and prayers night and day?
She is alive . . . to God.
Now look at the widow who is prodigaling her wealth. She has no need for God. She is
spening freely and foolishly. She, though by all appearances is living, is really dead . . .
to God.

So 1 Peter 4:5 is not about an evangel going to dead people in their tombs or to
disembodied spirits (if there were such a thing) but to people who were alive in Peter's
day but who were dead to God by their deplorable acts of the flesh.

Does this help? I told you it would be simple.

Tony

[Tony N]

even though the Bible says that "Christ died for our sins" there are some people who believe that Christ didn't really reside in death for three days and nights but was with the thief in paradise beginning that day. So they believe He wasn't really dead.

I don't believe Christ was in paradise that day but will, in the future be in paradise with the thief.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise." (Concordant Literal)

Notice the comma is after "today." In the KJV and many other translations the comma is before "today" making the person think that "today" the two would be in paradise. But that is impossible.

So was Christ figuratively dead or did He really die for our sins? It can't be both.

Tony

[Tony N]

Hi FF,
I think Paul was not caught away to paradise. Someone he knew was caught away to the third heaven.

2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "

The third heaven is not a vertical destination but horizontal as to time . . . in the future.
John, in spirit, too saw the third heaven which is in conjunction with the new earth and could be called the third earth.

The first heaven and earth came forth from chaos and vacancy in Genesis. The second heaven and earth came forth from the flood. The third heaven and earth come forth from a heaven and earth destroyed by fire.

So it was that third heaven that, in spirit, Paul, or someone he knew of, who saw the third heaven.

Paradise is part of the 1000 year kindgom and it was that kingdom the thief asked Christ to remember him when He comes in His kingdom. That day Christ promised the thief that he would be with Him in paradise but to be understood that he would be with Him in paradise when He comes in His kingdom.

You hip to this trip?  :boyheart:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Notice the comma is after "today." In the KJV and many other translations the comma is before "today" making the person think that "today" the two would be in paradise. But that is impossible.

While I understand the argument, it is not impossible to be in paradise today unless we are bound to what an interpretation of paradise is.   The emotional aspect of things, perhaps....

The comma placment depends on the argument of doctrine.  There are no commas in the original text, so a comma is based on the doctrinal position of the scholars or translators, nothing more nothing less.    But is it necessary to decide which in order to gain the truth?


My physical life may not be considered paradise but my real encounter with Jesus brings me to a place of paradise, now.  Is it what my emotions or desires imagine?  Maybe not, but as I read countless posts and arguments over the  "fear of hell" "am I doing enough for christ" "am I pleasing to God"  "whats Gods will for me" "what does God want me to do".

Then I realize, yes, I am in paradise today because I do not live in any fear of the unknown.  Will things be even better in the future when God becomes ALL in ALL?  I believe so,  so, it can indeed be both for me.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I believe Paul was speaking of Stephen, as Paul was standing there holding his garments as he was stoned to death. Without Stephen's remitting of his sins on the spot, there would have been no Paul, but only still a "Saul". Blessings....

[Molly]

:cloud9: I believe Paul was speaking of Stephen, as Paul was standing there holding his garments as he was stoned to death. Without Stephen's remitting of his sins on the spot, there would have been no Paul, but only still a "Saul". Blessings....

wow! :mshock:

[Tony N]

Notice the comma is after "today." In the KJV and many other translations the comma is before "today" making the person think that "today" the two would be in paradise. But that is impossible.

While I understand the argument, it is not impossible to be in paradise today unless we are bound to what an interpretation of paradise is.   The emotional aspect of things, perhaps....

The comma placment depends on the argument of doctrine.  There are no commas in the original text, so a comma is based on the doctrinal position of the scholars or translators, nothing more nothing less.    But is it necessary to decide which in order to gain the truth?


My physical life may not be considered paradise but my real encounter with Jesus brings me to a place of paradise, now.  Is it what my emotions or desires imagine?  Maybe not, but as I read countless posts and arguments over the  "fear of hell" "am I doing enough for christ" "am I pleasing to God"  "whats Gods will for me" "what does God want me to do".

Then I realize, yes, I am in paradise today because I do not live in any fear of the unknown.  Will things be even better in the future when God becomes ALL in ALL?  I believe so,  so, it can indeed be both for me.

Dear Paul, neither Christ nor the thief were in any sort of paradise when the died nor while on the cross. When they were in death, death was an enemy. It is the ultimate in being cut off from the life of God. It is bad.

FF, where in Scripture do you find the third heaven to be paradise? Paradise seems to be on the new earth which would be the third earth, not in a third heaven. dig? :laughing7:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Dear Paul, neither Christ nor the thief were in any sort of paradise when the died nor while on the cross. When they were in death, death was an enemy. It is the ultimate in being cut off from the life of God. It is bad.

The theif realizing Christ was right in front of him was reassured of his fate,  that is an immediate beginning of paradise.  Death is portrayed as an enemy that is defeated, knowing your about to die a physical death with the faith it has no power is paradise bro.

[Nathan]

Tony here I just posted the wrong **numbers** in the provided verses

2Cr 12:2 I knew **a man** in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the **third heaven**.

2Cr 12:4 How that **he** was caught up **into paradise**, and **heard** unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Personally, I think Paul "was" referring to himself just as Mark, I think it was, was referring to himself when they tried to grab him when Jesus was taken and they literally tore his clothes off and he ran off naked.  But regardless . . .I disagree that it's dealing with past, present or future as far as which heaven you're in.  I believe the third heaven is the third dimension . .it's in the invisible realm where Hebrews 11 and the beginning of 12 speak that we are compassed about by a great cloud of witnesses .. . can we see them?  No.  Is it because those that were in the past are now in the future?  I don't really believe so at all.  I think it's because we "are" enveloped by these guys right here and now, they're simply in a different realm than the physically living.

As far as whether or not the thief went to paradise as he took his last breath . . . I think we're again, slipping into the natural reasoning aspect of this.  Death to me, is simply a verb.  It's the experience of spirit being separated from flesh.  And both Jesus and the thief did experience this act.  And on the other side of death is the unknown to my mind, but the spirit is calling the unknown paradise, heaven, the garden, a spiritual dimension . . .  In order for Jesus to get the keys of sin, he had to go into the core of man . . . by way of separation from spirit and flesh. 

Who's to say, during this three days . . according to "our" application of time . .that the thief was not taken into the kingdom?  Why are we wanting to put a time limit as to "when" we "can" enter into heaven?  Time does not measure God, nor can it measure his kingdom. 

Hmmm . . .time is my measuring device through which I translate and interpret spiritual things . . .no wonder it doesn't fit anything in my traditional thinking.  I'm using the wrong measuring device.  Ezekiel was instructed to measure the temple . . and his measuring tool was a length of 6 cubics . . .coincidence?  Old Testament tool of measuring.  He was also told to measure the outer court . . .(natural dimension of things . . .works/labor based mentality)  But in Zechariah 2, "he" was told "not" to measure the outer court because "in that day"  (In Christ) there will be no walled cities.  Because encompassing the city will be a fire of God around each and every one of us.  You can't measure spiritual truth by trying to apply natural means . . .such as time.

[Tony N]

Tony here I just posted the wrong **numbers** in the provided verses

2Cr 12:2 I knew **a man** in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the **third heaven**.

2Cr 12:4 How that **he** was caught up **into paradise**, and **heard** unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Hi FF, thanks for posting that.
Let's look at it like this:

2Co 12:2-4  I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "  (3)  And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware)  (4)  that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "

In other words, that man was not only snatched away to the third heaven (which John saw in the future) but that man was snatched away into the paradise (which John also saw on the new earth).

That new heaven and new earth and paradise is yet future. Therefore the paradise which Jesus told the thief that day he would be in was the future paradise yet to come.

Neither Jesus nor the thief were in paradise either mentally nor in reality that day they died.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think this is why it is so difficult to relay the thought of spiritual knowledge by the means of natural things.

Heaven is portrayed in scripture the only real way we can communicate it and that is the thought of some physical place.   We say "God is in heaven"  well, then he cannot be down here now then?   But then we can agree God is everywhere, so is he simply in both places or is heaven in relationship to how we think a "state of existance" rather than some place we are "going" to?   I believe it is the former.

Define  "Paradise" and we can look at the dictionary, or someones interpretation of what the bible says about it, but reality is the fact that some people can enjoy things others hate.  For instance, growing up Paradise was described to me as some never ending church worship service, my thought is that would be HELL to me.  :happy3:

So my point is that realizations of actual truth, not just the assertions of another persons descriptions is the state of paradise for me.   My life is not always what I'd like it to be, but there is no argument that can prove that my release from the misery of how I once thought is not paradise.

What can we get from the thief on the cross? He was facing his doom, nails through his body, understanding that he is not going to get out of this physical fate, only to recognize Christ and the hope that brings.

Hope my friends,  hope in the midst of misery is indeed spiritual paradise. 

[chuckt]

I mean look at the tongue itself it is also shown as a tree of life (which is shown in the midst of the paradise of God) and that which pertains to having ones own conversation in heaven itself (where we are seated with Christ). That alone must make ya question how we percieve the thing. You got tongues of angels and men and the angels would ascend and decend upon the latter Jacob saw in His dream and Jesus speak of that as ascending and descending upon the Son of man here forword.

what a great reminder and very important things to remember.

Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.   :HeartThrob: