Natural and Spiritual

[Zeek]

Hi Zeek,

For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil2.13

I would say I am enduring to and waiting for God's work and Jesus' work to be done in me and in all creation. I am a complete work yet I am a work in progress. Do you understand what I am trying to say?

cp

I do, but I guess I dont see it that way anymore. 

So how do you know when his work is completed in you?  or is this unattainable while you are "flesh being"?  What's HIS measuring stick? 

So are you waiting for salvation, or are you saved?? 

[Zeek]

Zeek, I don't know what you are saying in your last 2 posts.

cp

To me those verses speak of the "same gospel" that Paul preached, and the gospel of the kingdom.  I think some are saying they are two different gospels.

[Cardinal]

Me thinks 'this generation' as Jesus used it refers to the time when blindness rules. The generation of the blind so to speak. The next generation is the incorruptable one, the immortal one of which was, is and is to come. The generation of light has come in Jesus Christ and will be completely fullfilled when the generation of 'Adam' is consumated.
cp

:cloud9: This is what was shown to me too, CP. Christ is the last Adam; those that are IN Christ, baptized into His Spirit, are in that "generation" and are part of the scripture, dealing with, "Who shall declare (means show openly) His GENERATION?"

Generation word means the same as revolution, as in what I talked about on another post about it being like a revolution of a whirlwind that takes us "up" higher into the things of the Spirit. So singurlarly, we are "on" one of those revolutions. Corporately, so was each successive generation of those that were IN HIM, all the way back to His appearing, plus some from the OT, as He has been progressively "raising" man up out of the dust realm and into the heavenlies. Blessings...

[gregoryfl]

Claypot,

Thanks for bringing that up. I was not limiting that enduring to the end to only 70 AD, but was just focusing my answer on that historical fulfullment.

I agree with the spirit in which you mean we all endure today. The way I would describe it is that all things have been fulfilled actually from the throwing-down of the world in God's view, but from our perspective, in time and space, for us there is the constant revelation of those things fulfilled, so in that sense there is an enduring for us and each generation after us. From Genesis 1:2 on revelation is everywhere, but unfortunately it is not brought out in translation. It is there however, in Hebrew.

Ron

[bobf]

Please, hyper-spiritualists, no "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be] made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Tony, what does filling up literal valleys and laying low literal mountains have to do with everyone seeing the salvation of God?  I mean, it's not God giving us a better viewing angle is it?

Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up.

[Molly]

Me thinks 'this generation' as Jesus used it refers to the time when blindness rules. The generation of the blind so to speak. The next generation is the incorruptable one, the immortal one of which was, is and is to come. The generation of light has come in Jesus Christ and will be completely fullfilled when the generation of 'Adam' is consumated.
cp

:cloud9: This is what was shown to me too, CP. Christ is the last Adam; those that are IN Christ, baptized into His Spirit, are in that "generation" and are part of the scripture, dealing with, "Who shall declare (means show openly) His GENERATION?"

Generation word means the same as revolution, as in what I talked about on another post about it being like a revolution of a whirlwind that takes us "up" higher into the things of the Spirit. So singurlarly, we are "on" one of those revolutions. Corporately, so was each successive generation of those that were IN HIM, all the way back to His appearing, plus some from the OT, as He has been progressively "raising" man up out of the dust realm and into the heavenlies. Blessings...

We tend to think of 'generation' as being 20 or 30 years, but it has another meaning.



Proverbs 30:14
There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.


Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


In the Greek:

"generation"

G1081
γέννημα
gennēma
ghen'-nay-mah
From G1080; offspring; by analogy produce (literally or figuratively): - fruit, generation.


G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.


G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; "kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.


So it can be understood as all the same kind, as in ' like begets like.'



24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

--Gen 1


But, I have a question.  If Jesus is the last Adam--what is this "generation of vipers"?  Not Adam?

[Molly]

In the Hebrew--

"generation"

H1755
דּר    דּור
dôr  dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.



H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.


Funny, you used just those words, Cardinal--Jacob's ladder is a circular staircase, the Spirit gyrating dust to the heavens in a whirlwind?   :laughing7:

[bobf]

Dear Zeek, what gospel is Matthew concerned with? The gospel of the kingdom, that's what gospel. That is not the gospel Paul brought to the nations.

With us of the nations under Paul's evangel, we don't have to endure to the end as Matthew 24:13 states for Paul says "1Th 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him."

So there are different evangels: the evangel of the circumcision and the evangel of the Uncircumcision (Galatians 2).

How was it that THE gospel was preached to Abraham then?

[Zeek]

Claypot,

Thanks for bringing that up. I was not limiting that enduring to the end to only 70 AD, but was just focusing my answer on that historical fulfullment.

I agree with the spirit in which you mean we all endure today. The way I would describe it is that all things have been fulfilled actually from the throwing-down of the world in God's view, but from our perspective, in time and space, for us there is the constant revelation of those things fulfilled, so in that sense there is an enduring for us and each generation after us. From Genesis 1:2 on revelation is everywhere, but unfortunately it is not brought out in translation. It is there however, in Hebrew.

Ron

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

In the Hebrew--

"generation"

H1755
דּר    דּור
dôr  dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.



H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.


Funny, you used just those words, Cardinal--Jacob's ladder is a circular staircase, the Spirit gyrating dust to the heavens in a whirlwind?   :laughing7:

:cloud9: What? You guys think I pull this stuff out of thin air?  :laughing7: :winkgrin:  :HeartThrob:

Yep, and Elijah being taken up in a whirlwind. Think about Genesis as being the beginning of the whirlwind, ie. the first revolution, and then moving through all the other books, with the culmination being Revelation. Like steps on a ladder, but the ladder is moving, as the Spirit is forever moving.

What's even more funny, is this works the same way in reverse. Goat means to go around in circles. When our carnal nature is allowed to override the nature/direction of the Spirit, instead of going up and over the "mountains' we end up going around and around it, as it is presented to us, over and over again, until we overcome whatever it is. So what happens if in the natural you keep the same path over and over again? It creates a deeper and deeper rut in the earth/flesh, presumably until we have dug our own grave?  :mshock: So the expression, "being in a rut" takes on a whole new meaning, doesn't it, LOL.  :winkgrin:

He gave me a night vision one time of Him as the whirlwind. It was as real as real could be. It looked like illuminated living water, with diamonds in it, there was so much reflective beauty in it. Hard to describe. Blessings....

[gregoryfl]

In the Hebrew--

"generation"

H1755
דּר    דּור
dôr  dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.



H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.


Funny, you used just those words, Cardinal--Jacob's ladder is a circular staircase, the Spirit gyrating dust to the heavens in a whirlwind?   :laughing7:

:cloud9: What? You guys think I pull this stuff out of thin air?  :laughing7: :winkgrin:  :HeartThrob:

Yep, and Elijah being taken up in a whirlwind. Think about Genesis as being the beginning of the whirlwind, ie. the first revolution, and then moving through all the other books, with the culmination being Revelation. Like steps on a ladder, but the ladder is moving, as the Spirit is forever moving.

What's even more funny, is this works the same way in reverse. Goat means to go around in circles. When our carnal nature is allowed to override the nature/direction of the Spirit, instead of going up and over the "mountains' we end up going around and around it, as it is presented to us, over and over again, until we overcome whatever it is. So what happens if in the natural you keep the same path over and over again? It creates a deeper and deeper rut in the earth/flesh, presumably until we have dug our own grave?  :mshock: So the expression, "being in a rut" takes on a whole new meaning, doesn't it, LOL.  :winkgrin:

He gave me a night vision one time of Him as the whirlwind. It was as real as real could be. It looked like illuminated living water, with diamonds in it, there was so much reflective beauty in it. Hard to describe. Blessings....

I wholeheartedly agree Cardinal. Even the very stuff we are made up, our dna, that which encodes who we are, is depicted in the same upward spiral. Truly his creation, even the smallest particle, pictures spiritual truth.

Ron

[Molly]

The goat thing--I was noticing that in the actions and thoughts of the Pharisees that I posted last night from John 9---they were desperately trying to control something that was out of their control and ended up going round and round in circles, getting nowhere--

Even the blind man could see it lol.

Is this the blind leading the blind?  Around and around in the same circle, getting nowhere?



John 9

We start out with a miracle of God according to Jesus.

Then in come the Pharisees--

They hear about the miracle.

1) they reason Jesus doesn't come from God because he broke the Sabbath
2)But how can a sinner work a miracle?
3)So they decide the man wasn't blind to begin with
4) But his parents tell them he was
5)So they try to get the blind man to agree Jesus is a sinner
6)But the blind man won't go along with them
7)So they ask the blind man again, how did he heal you?
8)But the blind man says he's already answered that question
7)So they tell the blind man he's a sinner and they don't care what he thinks

Finally,  they banish the blind man from their presence because they can't solve the problem. rofl




Ron--the double helix of DNA! Like two vines winding around each other--like a spiral staircase! :mshock:

[Taffy]

The goat thing--I was noticing that in the actions and thoughts of the Pharisees that I posted last night from John 9---they were desperately trying to control something that was out of their control and ended up going round and round in circles, getting nowhere--

Even the blind man could see it lol.

Is this the blind leading the blind?  Around and around in the same circle, getting nowhere?



John 9

We start out with a miracle of God according to Jesus.

Then in come the Pharisees--

They hear about the miracle.

1) they reason Jesus doesn't come from God because he broke the Sabbath
2)But how can a sinner work a miracle?
3)So they decide the man wasn't blind to begin with
4) But his parents tell them he was
5)So they try to get the blind man to agree Jesus is a sinner
6)But the blind man won't go along with them
7)So they ask the blind man again, how did he heal you?
8)But the blind man says he's already answered that question
7)So they tell the blind man he's a sinner and they don't care what he thinks

Finally,  they banish the blind man from their presence because they can't solve the problem. rofl




Ron--the double helix of DNA! Like two vines winding around each other--like a spiral staircase! :mshock:

Actually Molly they do Find somewhere..its a Ditch OR pit ,which for me relates very Much to the Grave :icon_flower:

[Molly]

The goat thing--I was noticing that in the actions and thoughts of the Pharisees that I posted last night from John 9---they were desperately trying to control something that was out of their control and ended up going round and round in circles, getting nowhere--

Even the blind man could see it lol.

Is this the blind leading the blind?  Around and around in the same circle, getting nowhere?



John 9

We start out with a miracle of God according to Jesus.

Then in come the Pharisees--

They hear about the miracle.

1) they reason Jesus doesn't come from God because he broke the Sabbath
2)But how can a sinner work a miracle?
3)So they decide the man wasn't blind to begin with
4) But his parents tell them he was
5)So they try to get the blind man to agree Jesus is a sinner
6)But the blind man won't go along with them
7)So they ask the blind man again, how did he heal you?
8)But the blind man says he's already answered that question
7)So they tell the blind man he's a sinner and they don't care what he thinks

Finally,  they banish the blind man from their presence because they can't solve the problem. rofl




Ron--the double helix of DNA! Like two vines winding around each other--like a spiral staircase! :mshock:

Actually Molly they do Find somewhere..its a Ditch OR pit ,which for me relates very Much to the Grave :icon_flower:

Yeah, that's what Cardinal said, too.  The rut, the pit, the grave--the living dead.  It would be really sad if they didn't want so much to pull the rest of us down with them.

[Taffy]

Yeah, that's what Cardinal said, too.  The rut, the pit, the grave--the living dead.

yeah weird egh :icon_king:

Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

:icon_flower:

[Tony N]

Dear Zeek, what gospel is Matthew concerned with? The gospel of the kingdom, that's what gospel. That is not the gospel Paul brought to the nations.

With us of the nations under Paul's evangel, we don't have to endure to the end as Matthew 24:13 states for Paul says "1Th 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him."

So there are different evangels: the evangel of the circumcision and the evangel of the Uncircumcision (Galatians 2).

How was it that THE gospel was preached to Abraham then?

Gal 3:8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gospel just means "good news." Abraham was told the good news that "in thee shall all the nations be blessed.

[Molly]

Dear Zeek, what gospel is Matthew concerned with? The gospel of the kingdom, that's what gospel. That is not the gospel Paul brought to the nations.

With us of the nations under Paul's evangel, we don't have to endure to the end as Matthew 24:13 states for Paul says "1Th 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him."

So there are different evangels: the evangel of the circumcision and the evangel of the Uncircumcision (Galatians 2).

How was it that THE gospel was preached to Abraham then?

Scripture reference please.

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

[Cardinal]

Ron said, " I wholeheartedly agree Cardinal. Even the very stuff we are made up, our DNA, that which encodes who we are, is depicted in the same upward spiral. Truly his creation, even the smallest particle, pictures spiritual truth."

:cloud9: AMEN. I haven't read it, but I was told Bob Torango was given truth on the DNA like that. Blessings....

[Cardinal]

The goat thing--I was noticing that in the actions and thoughts of the Pharisees that I posted last night from John 9---they were desperately trying to control something that was out of their control and ended up going round and round in circles, getting nowhere--

Even the blind man could see it lol.

Is this the blind leading the blind?  Around and around in the same circle, getting nowhere?



John 9

We start out with a miracle of God according to Jesus.

Then in come the Pharisees--

They hear about the miracle.

1) they reason Jesus doesn't come from God because he broke the Sabbath
2)But how can a sinner work a miracle?
3)So they decide the man wasn't blind to begin with
4) But his parents tell them he was
5)So they try to get the blind man to agree Jesus is a sinner
6)But the blind man won't go along with them
7)So they ask the blind man again, how did he heal you?
8)But the blind man says he's already answered that question
7)So they tell the blind man he's a sinner and they don't care what he thinks

Finally,  they banish the blind man from their presence because they can't solve the problem. rofl




Ron--the double helix of DNA! Like two vines winding around each other--like a spiral staircase! :mshock:

:cloud9: Yep, it does tie in. And the vines is interesting too. The "goodly Babylonianish garment" that the guy wanted to hang onto, runs into a meaning of vine, LOL. Hanging onto the one "side" of the ladder, ie. the one that is flesh, results in very bad things, LOL? Blessings....

[bobf]

Gal 3:8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gospel just means "good news." Abraham was told the good news that "in thee shall all the nations be blessed.

It was also the good news that God would justify the Gentiles through faith.  No relation to Paul's gpspel there?

[Tony N]

Please, hyper-spiritualists, no "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be] made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Tony, what does filling up literal valleys and laying low literal mountains have to do with everyone seeing the salvation of God?  I mean, it's not God giving us a better viewing angle is it?

Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up.

Bob, what it given as hyperbole or metaphorically in Luke and Isaiah does not mean this is the case with the great earthquake which is coming. It is yet future. It has not happened yet. Therefore it has not happened in anyone's pimple, or finger nail, or hair follicle, or liver, stomache, eyebrow etc. yet if it is about the flesh which it isn't. People don't have cities or islands in them. This is just getting beyond credibility.

Likewise mountains are not in people nor valleys. If anything, if it (mountains and valleys) is symbolic for humans it represents the human who is high and the human who is low.

Rev 16:18  And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19  And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

In Luke 3:5 John was supposed to prepare the way of the Lord. Notice at the end of 3:5 it says "and" so John was supposed to make smooth the way of the Lord AND not only that, but all flesh shall see the salvation of the Lord.

Christ has not come yet, the tares and the wheat have not be separated yet, the complement of the nations has not entered yet, the Lord has not out of Zion come to save all Israel yet and God has not dispatched His Son out of heaven because the restoration of all which the prophets told has not happened yet. You dig?

[Tony N]

Gal 3:8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gospel just means "good news." Abraham was told the good news that "in thee shall all the nations be blessed.

It was also the good news that God would justify the Gentiles through faith.  No relation to Paul's gpspel there?

It says this:
Gal 3:8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The good news that was brought to Abraham said "in thee shall all nations be blessed." It did not say: "God would justify the Gentiles through faith."

I fail to see how this connects with the fact that the tares and wheat have not been separated, Christ has not come back yet, the complement of the nations has not occurred yet, Matthew 24 and 25 has not occurred yet which must come before Christ returns. Heaven has still received the Son until the restoration of all has come.

[bobf]

I fail to see how this connects with the fact that the tares and wheat have not been separated, Christ has not come back yet, the complement of the nations has not occurred yet, Matthew 24 and 25 has not occurred yet which must come before Christ returns. Heaven has still received the Son until the restoration of all has come.

It doesn't relate... I was just commenting on comments about two gospels.

[Zeek]

2Co 10:5  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

G5313
ὕψωμα
hupsōma
hoop'-so-mah
From G5312; an elevated place or thing, that is, (abstractly) altitude, or (by implication) a barrier (figurative): - height, high thing.


Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Jas 4:6  But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Jas 4:10  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

lift you up:

G5312
ὑψόω
hupsoō
hoop-so'-o
From G5311; to elevate (literally or figuratively): - exalt, lift up.


1Pe 5:5  Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

1Pe 5:6  Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

G5011
ταπεινός
tapeinos
tap-i-nos'
Of uncertain derivation; depressed, that is, (figuratively) humiliated (in circumstances or disposition): - base, cast down, humble, of low degree (estate), lowly.

[claypot]

Hi Zeek,

For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil2.13

I would say I am enduring to and waiting for God's work and Jesus' work to be done in me and in all creation. I am a complete work yet I am a work in progress. Do you understand what I am trying to say?

cp

I do, but I guess I dont see it that way anymore. 

So how do you know when his work is completed in you?  or is this unattainable while you are "flesh being"?  What's HIS measuring stick? 

So are you waiting for salvation, or are you saved?? 

I don't have to know, I just become. I guess it is in the becoming that I know. God's measuring stick is Jesus Christ who is God's image. God said, Let us make man in our image. He is doing it.

I am waiting for salvation and yes, I am already saved. Depends on what perspective you take.

cp