Natural and Spiritual

[Zeek]

hi ZEEK.

The unveiling of Jesus Christ....IS...WAS...and WILL BE  :winkgrin:

this applys individually and corperately.

10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.


be well
chuckt

If that is the case, that the unveiling always "will be", then there never can be a "completed" consumation; because there will always be a "will be".   It never can be "finished", because there is always one more individual that "will be" unveiled.

the "will be" implies un-ending unveiling.   the enemy never can be fully defeated, as always "more unveiling" is in the future.

When the last enemy is destroyed, then will there be a "will be" revealing/unveiling still?;

according to your theory, the last enemy never really is destroyed, as "unveiling always "will be". 

[Tony N]

Dear Bob, Just because Paul brought out an allegory concerning the bond woman and free does not mean EVERYTHING is an allegory in Scripture.

Did I say that Tony?  Was that the point of talking about that allegory?  No.  It was to point at that just because a passage LOOKS literal does not make it literal-only.  You said you know it is not allegorical because you know it is literal.  Paul knew the passages he referenced in Genesis were both literal and allegorical.

Hi Bob, No, I guess you didn't. I was just saying it to make sure you weren't saying it.
So I guess the next step is this: How are we to take each thing Jesus said in Matthew 24 and 25 as allegorical and literal as to what is to take place which will mark the end of the eon.
This is important to the whole sense of the tares and wheat (the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one) since the separation is to take place at the end of the eon. Since Jesus told the disciples concerning the temple that not one stone would be left upon another and since it happened exactly as He said, why should we take the rest of the chapter as allegorical or allegorical and literal?

Neither the prophets, nor any writer in the new testament presents the things happening in Matt.24,25 as allegorical. No, not even one.

Yet Jesus said that generation would not pass away till all these things be fulfilled.

Actually He did not in those words.

All the Scriptures in the O.T. concerning the coming Messiah (Christ); were they to be taken as allegorical with no real happenning?

Again, I'm not talking about all OT scriptures.  And an allegory actually implies both real happening and another meaning.

O.K. Bob. So what are the allegories in Matthew 24 and 25?

Peace bro.
P.S. my 4 month old puppy is not doing very well. She may pass away today from liver shunt disease. So sad.

Tony

[Nathan]

I can say at this point that I'm only partial preterist...seeing more and more of what was actually fulfilled in 70 A.D.  But I really do like your post, PM...very helpful...

what's your take on the abomination of desolation?  Pretrib rapturers think it's the anti-christ (future) sitting in the (rebuilt?) temple ..hmmmm....maybe not :mnah:...

Also, if the temple's not rebuilt, then the sacrifice and grain offering verse is also a bit problematic wrt to futurism, huh? ...

I haven't followed every post on this VERY long thread...if this is getting too off topic, maybe you could answer me on the "Is rebuilding the temple unscriptural?" thread...THANKS!

I'm responding to this on "rebuilding of the temple unscriptural" thread if you're interested.

[bobf]

So I guess the next step is this: How are we to take each thing Jesus said in Matthew 24 and 25 as allegorical and literal as to what is to take place which will mark the end of the eon.  This is important to the whole sense of the tares and wheat (the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one) since the separation is to take place at the end of the eon. Since Jesus told the disciples concerning the temple that not one stone would be left upon another and since it happened exactly as He said, why should we take the rest of the chapter as allegorical or allegorical and literal?

First, the fact that it literally perfectly came to pass that not one stone was left upon another has no bearing on whether it is an allegory.  That was my first reason for bringing up Paul's allegory.  My other reason was to point out that God does not have to say "hey guys, this is an allegory" for it to be one.  I expect that Matthew 24-25 will literally come to pass some time in the future.  But even if I were around to witness each event literally come to pass, I'd still believe it's an allegory.  My belief that it is an allegory has nothing whatsover to do with whether or not it literally comes to pass.  Neither of those two reasons I just gave are any justification for believing it is an allegory, they are only reasons for not believing it is NOT an allegory.

Valid reasons for believing something is an allegory:
1. Indications within the text itself.
2. Attaining a clear picture of spiritual events to take place from scripture as a whole, and then seeing that the literal descriptions "line up" with those spiritual events.

I would also like to point out that if it is an allegory that does not necessitate that every single item in Matthew 24-25 be highly symbolic.  For example in Paul's allegory there were symbols for the old and new covenants but the literal "cast out" corresponded to "cast out" in the allegorical interpretation.

O.K. Bob. So what are the allegories in Matthew 24 and 25?

LOL.  If I felt like I had a clear picture of that I would have already presented it or started a thread a long time ago.  But I will get back to you with an overall picture and some of the symbols as I see them.

I think there are some big impediments to that discussion though:
1. My understanding has plenty of gaps.  If you've ever tried to explain something in which your understanding is incomplete or unsure, you know what I mean.
2. You believe some scriptures are to & about Israel only, others to & about the church only.  I'll likely be mixing and combining.

I will get back to you though.

Actually He did not in those words.

I gave you my reason for thinking He did.  Your argument against was based on the verb being the subjuntive mood, but based on the Greek grammar rules I sited that just makes Christ's statements all the more emphatic.  In addition to the grammar, it just seems far-fetched to me that Christ would be saying "Do ye not see all these? VERILY I SAY TO YOU, there MAY not be left here a stone upon a stone..."  Or "Heaven and earth shall pass away, BUT my words shall [MAY] not pass away."  Christ's words may pass away?  I don't think so.  Does VERILY combined with MIGHT make sense?

1. I don't see another way to read that verse that is likely.
2. The way I'm reading it, the way it is genrally translated, pretty much forces an allegory.
3. There is absolutely no reason that I can see for believing it is NOT an allegory.
4. If #3 is true then there is no reason to be inclined to look for an alternative for whatever the natural reading of "this generation..."

Peace bro.  P.S. my 4 month old puppy is not doing very well. She may pass away today from liver shunt disease. So sad.

I'm really sorry to hear that Tony.

Peace to you too brother,
Bob

[Tony N]

O.K. Bob, it makes sense what you say about the subjunctive (for now).

I think there are still problems with eschatological ideas which state that Christ did come back while that generation was alive in the manner and in lieu of all which Christ said must come to pass prior to His return.

I brought this up before but not much was replied to it:

Act 3:18-21  Yet what God announces before through the mouth of all the prophets - the suffering of His Christ - He thus fulfills.  (19)  Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord,  (20)  and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus,  (21)  Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.

Peter must have been in the audience Jesus spoke to of "this generation." Yet Peter stated that national repentence was necessary or Christ would not come back. Acts is a history of Israel rejecting Christ and so Christ coming back was suspended due to the secret given only to Paul:

Rom 11:25-27  For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."  (26)  And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."  (27)  And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins.

Only when the complement of the nations has entered (it has not yet entered after 2000 years) then Christ will come back and save Israel; (not save the church but save Israel.)

So it is more than likely that people have misunderstood what "this generation" meant because obviously Peter and Paul both state when Christ will come back. He did not come back yet to that generation either allegorically or literally.

[Nathan]

Actually Tony, he "did" come back to those in that generation.  That's what we keep bouncing back and forth.  Paul states that the gospel he preached was not a gospel given to him by other men, but that the Lord himself appeared to him and showed him many things.  Some he was to pass on to others, some he was not to repeat.  The entire book of Revelation is documented proof that Christ came back . . . He is salvation to those who acknowledge him, he is a judge to those who don't.

[Zeek]

O.K. Bob, it makes sense what you say about the subjunctive (for now).

I think there are still problems with eschatological ideas which state that Christ did come back while that generation was alive in the manner and in lieu of all which Christ said must come to pass prior to His return.

I brought this up before but not much was replied to it:

Act 3:18-21  Yet what God announces before through the mouth of all the prophets - the suffering of His Christ - He thus fulfills.  (19)  Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord,  (20)  and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus,  (21)  Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.

Peter must have been in the audience Jesus spoke to of "this generation." Yet Peter stated that national repentence was necessary or Christ would not come back. Acts is a history of Israel rejecting Christ and so Christ coming back was suspended due to the secret given only to Paul:

Rom 11:25-27  For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."  (26)  And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."  (27)  And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins.

Only when the complement of the nations has entered (it has not yet entered after 2000 years) then Christ will come back and save Israel; (not save the church but save Israel.)

So it is more than likely that people have misunderstood what "this generation" meant because obviously Peter and Paul both state when Christ will come back. He did not come back yet to that generation either allegorically or literally.

some ideas on "nations"


– The Nations –



In many places where the Scriptures speak of the "nations" it is referring to non Jews-Israelites, but not exclusively so, and in the light of New Testament prophecy this is an important distinction to acknowledge. Concerning Israel, we find the following in Genesis:

Gen 17:4-6 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.

Gen 17:16 And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her."

Gen 35:11 Also God said to him: "I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body. cf. Gen 48:4

Gen 48:19 But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations."

Moving now to the New Testament we find references to Diasporic Jews:

Act 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Acts 2:5-11 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."

Jesus makes it clear that "...salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]. The way or means of salvation came through the Jews, and ultimately in Jesus Christ – a salvation that outworked through the "in Christ" first-fruit believers of the "this generation" and thus fulfilled; they were the priestly vine [Jn 15:1, 5], the elect, the remnant, the chosen – those commissioned for the world's restoration unto God [Mt 28:19-20; 2Cor 5:19; 1Pet 2:9-10].

The nations of Mt 25:32 were the two southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin gathered together with the ten northern tribes constituting greater Israel – those who under the Assyrian Tiglath-Pileser in 722BC and the Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar in 586BC had been "scattered to the four corners" of the known world. Israel, having been scattered abroad and assimilating into foreign cultures, though keeping to their monotheism, became representative of the Gentile nations. And in a real sense, being the covenanted people were out of covenant with their God – being out of their Land, became in effect in relation to God, accursed Gentiles – "Lo-Ammi – not My people" [Hos 1:9-10; 2:23].

Hos 8:8 Israel is swallowed up; now they are among the Gentiles like a vessel in which is no pleasure.

As Abram before coming into covenant with God was a Gentile so too was Israel in her banished state. In restoration i.e., resurrection [Ezk 37:1-14], Israel is again the people of God, yet this time inclusively so, for in Christ the middle wall of division was obliterated and those "not a people" [Rom 9: 25-26] are now brought into the commonwealth of Israel [Eph 2:12], and are now the people of God, or as John says "...Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God." Rev 21:3.

Isa 11:11-12 It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left, from Assyria and Egypt, from Pathros and Cush, from Elam and Shinar, from Hamath and the islands of the sea. He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

In context then it can be noted that the "All the nations will be gathered" in Mt 25:32 is to be equated with and is therefore identical to "...all the tribes of the earth..." of Mt 24:30. Further to this is the Greek text in which both Isaiah and Matthew render the common translation "earth" more correctly as "LAND" [gēs –γης], thus giving it a more focused setting.

This then is what the great gathering of the peoples, the nations [Gen 49:10d] of the AD70 Parousia of Christ was all about. Consequently, Israel's redemption brought to fruition the Divinely planned reconciliation of the wider world [Rom 11:11, 15, 25-27].

From this then we see that the PRIMARY deception of the nations in Rev 20:10 was in reference to Israel under the Old Covenant.


http://www.pantelism.com/TheNations.htm

[Zeek]

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Col 1:5  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6  Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[Nathan]

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Col 1:5  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6  Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

That's a beautiful song you're singing Zeek . . .beautiful.
Next step . . . there are cities "in me".  There are walls that "I" put there that the message of God envelops without a sound . . .until the seventh day when his praise is declared and my walls come crashing down.  My earth has heard his voice, all my earth has seen his mighty hand . . . he "has come" "Is coming" and "will continue to come" to this world within me.

[Cardinal]

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Col 1:5  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6  Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

That's a beautiful song you're singing Zeek . . .beautiful.
Next step . . . there are cities "in me".  There are walls that "I" put there that the message of God envelops without a sound . . .until the seventh day when his praise is declared and my walls come crashing down.  My earth has heard his voice, all my earth has seen his mighty hand . . . he "has come" "Is coming" and "will continue to come" to this world within me.

:cloud9: AMEN to both of these..... :thumbsup: wow, a great time of fellowship here today, all....blessings....

[crowbar]

Wonder no more!!  For me it is one and the same! :icon_flower: :icon_king:

[Taffy]

Under HEAVEN....

emphasis..those beneath , those NOT yet In their RIGHT minds , etc...

Nice post Zeek...  :icon_flower:

[Zeek]

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Col 1:5  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6  Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

That's a beautiful song you're singing Zeek . . .beautiful.
Next step . . . there are cities "in me".  There are walls that "I" put there that the message of God envelops without a sound . . .until the seventh day when his praise is declared and my walls come crashing down.  My earth has heard his voice, all my earth has seen his mighty hand . . . he "has come" "Is coming" and "will continue to come" to this world within me.

Amen,

I think of where I was just 2-3 years ago, and how "much more" He has revealed, in me.  Sometimes I kind of freak out (in a good way) when I get those "undescribable moments with HIM, peace that passes understanding", and the unfolding of HIM as we continue this journey. 

LOVE is so much more than an emotion. 

PRAISE HIM, and LOVE to all of you here.

Z

[Taffy]

Under HEAVEN....

emphasis..those beneath , those NOT yet In their RIGHT minds , etc...

Nice post Zeek...  :icon_flower:

YE are from BENEATHE  :grin: He was certanly from ABOVE huh?  :grin:

Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 
AMEN SIS :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

Amen!!!  :bigGrin:

Rev 14:6 And I saw another ANGEL FLY in THE MIDST of HEAVEN ***HAVING*** THE GOSPEL TO PREACH **unto them** that DWELL ON THE EARTH and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people  :bigGrin:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from THE HOPE of THE GOSPEL, which YE HAVE HEARD, and WHICH WAS PREACHED to EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN ***whereof*** I PAUL am made a minister

Ye received "me" as an "ANGEL of God" even "Christ Himself"  :grin:

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it , but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I wonder if flying in mid heaven is sorta as being seated with Christ and seeing things more clearly by revelation?

:cloud9: YES to that, heaven is the same as walking in the Spirit. And thank you for this post, I just saw an angel, LOL.  :thumbsup: The another angel he is talking about that flies in the midst of heaven having the gospel (the TRUE gospel which is being revealed again in this day and hour), is Christ in a many membered body. That's why they received Paul as an angel, ie. message or messenger of the gospel. Blessings...

[Taffy]

Under HEAVEN....

emphasis..those beneath , those NOT yet In their RIGHT minds , etc...

Nice post Zeek...  :icon_flower:

YE are from BENEATHE  :grin: He was certanly from ABOVE huh?  :grin:

Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 
AMEN SIS :icon_flower:

Amen thanks for the verse Im on my other puter now  :grin:

I think He was preaching to every CREATURE so they can BECOME the *NEW* CREATURES  :grin:

LIVING CREATURES??  :grin:

all Being Made New souls In HiM SIS..YUP

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

[Tony N]

Actually Tony, he "did" come back to those in that generation.  That's what we keep bouncing back and forth.  Paul states that the gospel he preached was not a gospel given to him by other men, but that the Lord himself appeared to him and showed him many things.  Some he was to pass on to others, some he was not to repeat.  The entire book of Revelation is documented proof that Christ came back . . . He is salvation to those who acknowledge him, he is a judge to those who don't.

Nathan,
Christ did not come back and arrive from Mount Zion for all Israel to be saved.
The complement of the nations has not entered in yet. Last I knew I got saved as did most who post on these boards and saved through grace and people of the nations are still being added to the complement.

Not only that but all which Christ spoke of which would happen prior to His return did not occur either allegorically nor literally.

That which Peter spoke of in Acts 3 did not occur for Christ to come back either.

[Nathan]

Oh, how I wish I could stay here and watch this conversation with you guys  . .but my day here is done . . .look forward to see how it went tomorrow . .watch yourself Kim . .this is a wild one . . you may want to take your computer into the shower WITH you during this . . .wouldn't that be a hoot!! :laughing7: :laughing7:

[Tony N]

Yeah but Tony havent we come to Mt Sion already? Isnt that what it says?

FF, first of all the complement of the nations has to enter, then arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer and then all Israel will be saved.

The Jews or Hebrews which the writer of Hebrews wrote to concerning THEM coming to Mt. Zion is not the same as "arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer."

Once the last person of the nations is saved which completes the body of Christ then and only then will Christ come back and arrive out of Zion.

[claypot]

Wow, this is a long and good discussion. Can I add my 2 cents. Of course I can. Only God and the mods can stop me.

I just want to say the natural and spiritual are my favorite topics or at least right up there. I think the interpretation of the Bible is way out there so that's where I go. I don't really care if 2 naked people were running around a garden way back when unless it points to something. I don't care who or what is arriving out of Mt Zion unless it represents something about life, my life, your life, all life.

If God just wants us to do something to be saved then He could have told us in a few sentences and called it a day. We either do it or we don't.

Here is my take. The whole of Scripture is God telling us what we are, who we are and how we are made.

Example: The sheep and goats. Within my make up are sheep and goats, not literal ones but figurative. I am one lump and within this lump are vessels of honor and dishonor.

Jacob I love, Esau I hate, God says. I take this to mean God loves the divine within us and hates the carnal.

So far, most of all Scripture I've read fits this way of deciphering Scripture. I do see much of what is written taking place in our physical literal world but I see all of it taking place in the spirit realm.

Just my thoughts and I covet your responses. I know some of this many of you have heard before and some even are way ahead of me in realizing these thoughts as real but I wanted to vent a bit. I have read much of this thread and am enjoying it.

claypot

[bobf]

Tony, can you help me with verses what verse is "arriving out of Zion be the rescuer" I know its just worded differently in mine but Im curious. Sorry you know me Im not too swift without verses but I want to understand what you mean here. So there will be the last person saved on earth and Christ will come back to Zion and out of Zion?

Hi FF,

I think Tony is referring to this:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

[Taffy]

Christ in us our hope of glory and Him shining out of us is as out of Sion God, the perfection of beauty hath shined if we go onto perfection. Even Sion is just men made perfect right? Looks what laid in Zion... this is beautiful, forgive me if I screw it up though I try.

Theres a Stone laid in Zion (Peter calls Him a precious Stone)

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, ((( Behold ))) **I LAY** ((( in Zion ))) for a foundation A STONE, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, **a sure foundation**: he that believeth shall not make haste.

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that IS LAID, which is JESUS CHRIST.

The first foundation was called Jasper here (I see as Christ)

Rev21:19 The first foundation was JASPER  

Here He is again in the building of the wall of it

Rev 21:18 And **the building of** the wall of it was of JASPER: and the city (ye are a city) was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

WE are (In Him) are builded together through the Spirit

**IN WHOM** YE also ARE BUILDED TOGETHER for an habitation of God through the Spirit

Heres the Glory unto Glory by the Spirit and the glass

2Cr 3:18 But we all, with **open face** beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 

Heres HAVING the Glory of God (of which Christ IS and clear crystal, the Stone like Jasper again

Rev 21:11 ***HAVING***the glory of God: and HER LIGHT was like unto A STONE **most precious**,  even like a JASPER STONE, ~clear as crystal~

God commanding the LIGHT to shine OUT here

2Cr 4:6 For **God** who commanded THE LIGHT TO SHINE **OUT OF** darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

And the God who commanded (above) is He that did "lighten" but the Lamb (Christ) is the light

Rev 21:3 And the city (YE are a City) had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did **lighten it**, and the Lamb IS THE LIGHT **thereof**.

Our Light (Him in us) is to SHINE OUT of the city (Sion/us)

Mat 5:16 Let your light SO SHINE before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

We are perfected "In Love" God IS Love and the perfection of beauty that should shine out from us (that true light that NOW shineth)

Psalm 50:2 **OUT OF** Zion, the perfection of beauty, GOD (who is love) hath shined.

Let us go onto "perfection" would be God (who is love) shining out from her. Christ being the sure fountation (even precious stone) God laid in her. Her light is like UNTO HIS as He is a light so is SHE and her light is compared to the Jasper Stone as the same likeness of that stone is shown on the throne, in the building of the wall of it and sure foundation.

He's THAT precious stone and in each place more qualities of Him are found pertaining to these things

Ok this is sorta how Im seeing it

Sion (of just men made perfect) IS the city of the living God. Its God Who laid the Stone (most precious = Christ) "This indescrible gift" in Sion "out of which" God (even the love of God in Christ) should shine. The perfection of beauty is of Him. These are they who have gone onto perfection. "I am the light" of the world Ye are a city on a hill (Mount Sion where the Stone is laid) **Having** the glory of God and ones light being like unto His we can let "our light" (Him) Shine. We are created in Christ (unto the good works) we should let shine (before men) to glorify the Father.

Theres some real beautiful things in this, maybe I can rewrite it cause sometimes its the placement of the verses which makes it either easier or harder to see. Look at those verses CLOSELY and compare them they are pretty kool Tony :HeartThrob:

Edited to see if I could show it better

(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/jackson.gif)

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

[Tony N]

Yeah but Tony havent we come to Mt Sion already? Isnt that what it says?

FF, first of all the complement of the nations has to enter, then arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer and then all Israel will be saved.

The Jews or Hebrews which the writer of Hebrews wrote to concerning THEM coming to Mt. Zion is not the same as "arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer."

Once the last person of the nations is saved which completes the body of Christ then and only then will Christ come back and arrive out of Zion.

Tony, can you help me with verses what verse is "arriving out of Zion be the rescuer" I know its just worded differently in mine but Im curious. Sorry you know me Im not too swift without verses but I want to understand what you mean here. So there will be the last person saved on earth and Christ will come back to Zion and out of Zion?

Dear FF,
My bad,

Act 3:19-21  Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord,  (20)  and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus,  (21)  Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.

Rom 11:25-26  For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."  (26)  And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."

Some who have posted in this thread have said that Christ already did come back. Christ did meet Paul on the road to Damascus but did not set foot on the earth. And that was outside the promised land, not from Mt. Zion.

Peter, Paul and Mary (that should be a music band) all looked forward to Christ's return and wrote about it (except Mary). And He certainly did not come back according to Matthew 24 and 25 nor according to Revelation 1 thru 19 nor

2Th 1:7-8  and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers,  (8)  in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ"

[gregoryfl]

Yeah but Tony havent we come to Mt Sion already? Isnt that what it says?

FF, first of all the complement of the nations has to enter, then arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer and then all Israel will be saved.

The Jews or Hebrews which the writer of Hebrews wrote to concerning THEM coming to Mt. Zion is not the same as "arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer."

Once the last person of the nations is saved which completes the body of Christ then and only then will Christ come back and arrive out of Zion.

Tony, can you help me with verses what verse is "arriving out of Zion be the rescuer" I know its just worded differently in mine but Im curious. Sorry you know me Im not too swift without verses but I want to understand what you mean here. So there will be the last person saved on earth and Christ will come back to Zion and out of Zion?

Dear FF,
My bad,

Act 3:19-21  Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord,  (20)  and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus,  (21)  Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.

Rom 11:25-26  For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."  (26)  And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."

Some who have posted in this thread have said that Christ already did come back. Christ did meet Paul on the road to Damascus but did not set foot on the earth. And that was outside the promised land, not from Mt. Zion.

Peter, Paul and Mary (that should be a music band) all looked forward to Christ's return and wrote about it (except Mary). And He certainly did not come back according to Matthew 24 and 25 nor according to Revelation 1 thru 19 nor

2Th 1:7-8  and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers,  (8)  in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ"

What if he truly did come back, but, as was the case with his coming the first time in the flesh, most did not discern it because of what they were expecting?

Ron

[bobf]

O.K. Bob, it makes sense what you say about the subjunctive (for now).

That's cool.  Lots of my ideas I keep in a tentative "for now" category. ;)

I think there are still problems with eschatological ideas which state that Christ did come back while that generation was alive in the manner and in lieu of all which Christ said must come to pass prior to His return.

An allegorical fulfillment would not be literally "in the manner" described in Matthew 24-25 nor would it need to be "in lieu of" a literal fulfillment of anything He described.  I know you already know that, but not sure what else you mean by "in the manner and in lieu of".

I brought this up before but not much was replied to it:

Act 3:18-21  Yet what God announces before through the mouth of all the prophets - the suffering of His Christ - He thus fulfills.  (19)  Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord,  (20)  and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus,  (21)  Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.

Peter must have been in the audience Jesus spoke to of "this generation." Yet Peter stated that national repentence was necessary or Christ would not come back. Acts is a history of Israel rejecting Christ and so Christ coming back was suspended due to the secret given only to Paul:

Rom 11:25-27  For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."  (26)  And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."  (27)  And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins.

Only when the complement of the nations has entered (it has not yet entered after 2000 years) then Christ will come back and save Israel; (not save the church but save Israel.)

So it is more than likely that people have misunderstood what "this generation" meant because obviously Peter and Paul both state when Christ will come back. He did not come back yet to that generation either allegorically or literally.

You're using Acts 3 and Romans 11 to further prove a point which we already agree on, namely that Matthew 24-25 has not yet been literally fulfilled.  So how can that have any bearing on or disprove a non-literal inward fulfillment of Matthew 24-25 in that generation?