Natural and Spiritual

[Tony N]

What if tares is the ungodly nature in you . . .and wheat is the godliness in you?  Why is this so bad to consider?  Romans 1:20 states that God uses the natural to reveal spiritual truths . . . the whole purpose for natural explanations, is to reveal spiritual reality.  They're not meant to be embraced as the end of the road . .but they are to be applied as patterns of things unseen . . .the kingdom of heaven does not come by observation . .it is IN you . . .as are the wheat . .as are the tares.

Dear Nathan,
Thanks for your words concerning this matter.
And what if the tares are the ungodly nature in you . . . and wheat is the godliness in You? you ask? If that is the case, then the angels are to be sent at the end of the eon and cast out of the kingdom all who make snares and are doing lawlessness. We must wait till the end of the eon. We must wait for the angels to do the separating.

I am sorry, friend, but part of me is not a part of Satan. And whether we of the nations make snares or do lawlessness, grace superabounds unlike Israel, who, when Christ returns, will be judged by Christ and He will cast out of His kingdom all in Israel who make snares and all doing lawlessness.

It is partly a matter of maturity and partly a matter of unbelief.

Jesus never said that when He comes and sends the angels to cast the bad out of his Kingdom that the sons of the kingdom are the exact same ones as the sons of Satan.

Neither did He ever say that the sons of the kingdom is the good in our flesh and the sons of Satan is the bad in our flesh.

The kingdom of heaven was among the Jews while Jesus was among them.

In Matt.3:2 the kingdom of the heavens was near. If it was in them why was it near but not in them when John the Baptist came?
This talks about those entering into the kingdom of the heavens, not the kingdom of the heavens entering into them:

Mat 5:20 For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

If the kingdom was already in them why did Jesus teach His disciples to pray:

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, on earth also."

And after Christ came and went the disciples were still looking forward to entering the kingdom:

Act 14:22 establishing the souls of the disciples, besides entreating them to remain in the faith and saying that, "Through many afflictions must we be entering into the kingdom of God."

So, friend, when Christ comes back to set up His kingdom when the eon ends, He is going to judge Israel for judgment begins in the house of God. He will send forth His angels and take out of Israel all who make snares and who do lawlessness.

If the sons of Satan stands for the bad in our flesh, how are the angels going to kick that part of us out of the kingdom?

Another bad problem I see with not believing Jesus when He Himself interprets to us what the wheat and the tares are is that when we make fanciful esoteric statements about His interpretation it disqualifies us from having a sound mind. It is not spiritual. It is unbelief.

[rosered]

Nathan,

Your comments reminded me of something.   I have had what I believe to be spiritual awareness and it is very hard to try to explain it to someone else.  Try as we may, the only way to even begin is to try to come up with some analogy with physical things and they are simply inadequate.

I do agree that everyone is at a different point and that is how God intends for it to be.  I do not say this in a negative way, but 31 pages of this topic is about people desparate to either know greater things spiritually or desparate to try to help someone else understand what they see spiritually.  and to me, that is a good thing.

I have met two people recently that I know God put in my path to help, it excites me to no end, and my enthusiasm cannot be conveyed to these people without appearing like some wierdo, it is very difficult for me to put the brakes on and be patient in a developing relationship with them.  To me I just want to jump in with both feet and love them to death.   I am finding that few people can understand why and I am not sure I have the ability to explain it.

Indeed, it is not about me being better than them, it is desperatly hoping God shows them the same freedom.

Not sure if this will help the thread any or not.

Hi Paul , my brother   it does help ! Gods Spirit is teaching us ,  the ways of God  , I can  know this with a clean heart to speak it ,  your compassion  towards others   is endearing  , I also   feel the same   as God puts these   poor souls and some times stumbling blocks in our path so we will turn to God only for our help and needs  , I can see your humble spirit many times    doing the works of God and am blessed to know you and love you and call you my brother in Christ ..  God be with you and bless you and yours  always in Him ... rose

[rosered]

  Dear Tony N ,
     we have much to learn , Like Peter , he spoke  with   great confidence 
  but when tested found his lack , it was Jesus who saved Him and it was the knowledge he  gained  by  trial and error  ,   them experiences changed him and made  him ready and able worker  to do Gods will  and feed the sheep of Jesus  sheepfold 
 
    But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.


Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 

  Peter did loose  his life  and found Life in Christ so much more than he ever had doing satans bidding   the things  / works  of mens  hands 

[Tony N]

 Hi Tony  N
  I have read your  post  to Fire and bobf ,,
 and I am going to ask you bro  , have you considered Peter  , my prime example of a tare ,  Peter was by the way to be sifted like wheat , that means a good thrashing ,, wheat is trashed out  
 being that Jesus called him satan , because he was a stumblingblock to Jesus and mindful of the things of men and not God
 could a tare  be   the things of men  by definition ,  Jesus also called in John  4   them sons of the wicked one your father  the devil ...
 because of the works that they did    were not of faith  nor   of God , but men and seeking mens approval  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Dear rosered, it is a moot point you bring up concerning Peter.
The point Jesus was making about the tares and the wheat is that when this eon ends He is going to send in His angels and cast out of His kingdom all who make snares and all who do lawlessness. Period.
This is a judging of Israel. He is going to kick out of His kingdom those bad people when this eon ends.

After He does this He is going to judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren (Matthew 25:31-46). The goat nations get eonian chastening outside the kingdom. The sheep nations enter into the joys of the kingdom.
The sons of the adversary get cast out of the kingdom and must endure chastening along with the bad nations.

[rosered]

Every person who's reading and posting on this forum is literally, at a different place in maturity in Christ

  Hi Nathan , this is it in a nutshell bro !  you said it, THE Testimony of
Jesus Christ IS the Spirit of Prophecy  mans wisdom  is the stumbling block of all offenses to the Cross of Christ ..........

 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.


1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1Cr 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.


1Cr 2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:


1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


1Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[Nathan]

Nathan,

Your comments reminded me of something.   I have had what I believe to be spiritual awareness and it is very hard to try to explain it to someone else.  Try as we may, the only way to even begin is to try to come up with some analogy with physical things and they are simply inadequate.

I do agree that everyone is at a different point and that is how God intends for it to be.  I do not say this in a negative way, but 31 pages of this topic is about people desparate to either know greater things spiritually or desparate to try to help someone else understand what they see spiritually.  and to me, that is a good thing.

I have met two people recently that I know God put in my path to help, it excites me to no end, and my enthusiasm cannot be conveyed to these people without appearing like some wierdo, it is very difficult for me to put the brakes on and be patient in a developing relationship with them.  To me I just want to jump in with both feet and love them to death.   I am finding that few people can understand why and I am not sure I have the ability to explain it.

Indeed, it is not about me being better than them, it is desperatly hoping God shows them the same freedom.

Not sure if this will help the thread any or not.

Alas Paul, you've hit the nail on the head.  I've grown much over the last couple months just from being a part of this conversational family.  My desire is not to prove my points of view, but it is to know Truth on an intimate level and set as many free who are willing to let themselves be filled with whatever God pours through me into them.  It's a give and take.  It excites me to share what I see, it matures me to accept what I don't.  I'm not saying everyone should "agree" with every thing.  I'm saying every thing should be received.  Agreement has nothing to do with it.  All agreement is, is my mind accepting what's being said.  Unfortunately, for me anyway, my mind is my biggest problem.

It does play a huge role, but there's always an order to it.  My mind is the womb of me.  When spirit truths are planted there . .so long as I don't reject them, they will take root and grow . .and birth life in my understanding.  But if my mind rejects them, they become still-born and all my mind birthed was death.  There seems to be a growing number of new people (new to me) that are becoming engaged in the converstations that say things that causes my spirit to leap within me.  My mind has trouble catching up, but I'm training it to shutup until it catches up . .in the mean time, let the spirit do it's work with what's being said.  This is the area that always needs work and a good share of grace and mercy . .both from God and myself.

One other thing about this tare and wheat issue I'd like to throw  out there.  This picture is one of a field . .not one of a garden.  The field is me . . I am a generation . . . so you could say the field is a generation of time.  But I also think that you can break it down to segments of time within a generation . .kind of like "rows" of corn and wheat.  The reason I point this out is because, like wheat, there are things in us that "come into" maturity.  I believe the things that are then harvested and stored are things in us that God planted, grew, and harvested and the barn is his house (In my Father's house are many rooms . . .).  Scripture speaks of storing things that are not eaten by moths yes?  I believe those are the things that my field produced and God had already harvested . . .even though my life is not yet over . .which would mean . .like wheat . . . you don't just plant it once . .you have to replant it year after year.  eon after eon. . .experience after experience . .from glory to glory . . .

Where as in a garden, you plant the tree one time and without any further required labor, the tree produces fruit of it's own accord.  The fruit can be harvested every year, but the tree is planted only once.  So . . . here's the question . . .because of the fact that 6 days were created in order for there to be a 7th . .and our goal is to enter into that Sabbath rest . .yes??  Then can we not make the jump and say that it is the elders in Christ who find the place of rest in him where there is no more mindless laboring for something that is given freely?  Would you rather continue living as a field of wheat?  Or . . .would you rather return back to the original garden from which you came?

For me, natural reasoning = days of labor = field of wheat and tares.
Spiritual revelation = Sabbath Rest = Garden of Spiritual kingdom manifesting within me.

[rosered]

 Hi Tony  N
  I have read your  post  to Fire and bobf ,,
 and I am going to ask you bro  , have you considered Peter  , my prime example of a tare ,  Peter was by the way to be sifted like wheat , that means a good thrashing ,, wheat is trashed out  
 being that Jesus called him satan , because he was a stumblingblock to Jesus and mindful of the things of men and not God
 could a tare  be   the things of men  by definition ,  Jesus also called in John  4   them sons of the wicked one your father  the devil ...
 because of the works that they did    were not of faith  nor   of God , but men and seeking mens approval  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Dear rosered, it is a moot point you bring up concerning Peter.
The point Jesus was making about the tares and the wheat is that when this eon ends He is going to send in His angels and cast out of His kingdom all who make snares and all who do lawlessness. Period.
This is a judging of Israel. He is going to kick out of His kingdom those bad people when this eon ends.

After He does this He is going to judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren (Matthew 25:31-46). The goat nations get eonian chastening outside the kingdom. The sheep nations enter into the joys of the kingdom.
The sons of the adversary get cast out of the kingdom and must endure chastening along with the bad nations.

Hi Tony , I cannot believe you said that!

 Every thing and every   example Jesus gave us Tony is  excellent  for our learning and gaining experience  , Jesus Christ testimony /WITNESS  

IS  the Spirit of prophecy , the revealing of the things hidden of God though the ages [eions]  to now  , NOW is the time to  rise up out of sleep

 and awake unto the righteouness of God , not all have this knowledge  
   this Knowledge   and Wisdom is the POWER OF GOD IS JESUS CHRIST  all that Jesus said and done


For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:


1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

[Tony N]

 Hi Tony  N
  I have read your  post  to Fire and bobf ,,
 and I am going to ask you bro  , have you considered Peter  , my prime example of a tare ,  Peter was by the way to be sifted like wheat , that means a good thrashing ,, wheat is trashed out  
 being that Jesus called him satan , because he was a stumblingblock to Jesus and mindful of the things of men and not God
 could a tare  be   the things of men  by definition ,  Jesus also called in John  4   them sons of the wicked one your father  the devil ...
 because of the works that they did    were not of faith  nor   of God , but men and seeking mens approval  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Dear rosered, it is a moot point you bring up concerning Peter.
The point Jesus was making about the tares and the wheat is that when this eon ends He is going to send in His angels and cast out of His kingdom all who make snares and all who do lawlessness. Period.
This is a judging of Israel. He is going to kick out of His kingdom those bad people when this eon ends.

After He does this He is going to judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren (Matthew 25:31-46). The goat nations get eonian chastening outside the kingdom. The sheep nations enter into the joys of the kingdom.
The sons of the adversary get cast out of the kingdom and must endure chastening along with the bad nations.

Hi Tony , I cannot believe you said that!

 Every thing and every   example Jesus gave us Tony is  excellent  for our learning and gaining experience  , Jesus Christ testimony /WITNESS  

IS  the Spirit of prophecy , the revealing of the things hidden of God though the ages [eions]  to now  , NOW is the time to  rise up out of sleep

 and awake unto the righteouness of God , not all have this knowledge  
   this Knowledge   and Wisdom is the POWER OF GOD IS JESUS CHRIST  all that Jesus said and done


For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:


1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

But Rosered, I have learned from what Jesus said.
He said that at the end of this eon He is going to judge those in Israel and kick out of that kingdom, by His angels, all the people who make snares and do lawlessness.
Then in the same book, Matthew records in 25:31-46 Jesus saying that when He returns He is also going to judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren during their great tribulation.

What is so difficult to learn about that? The only difficult thing is just believing Jesus.

[Nathan]

What if tares is the ungodly nature in you . . .and wheat is the godliness in you?  Why is this so bad to consider?  Romans 1:20 states that God uses the natural to reveal spiritual truths . . . the whole purpose for natural explanations, is to reveal spiritual reality.  They're not meant to be embraced as the end of the road . .but they are to be applied as patterns of things unseen . . .the kingdom of heaven does not come by observation . .it is IN you . . .as are the wheat . .as are the tares.

Dear Nathan,
Thanks for your words concerning this matter.
And what if the tares are the ungodly nature in you . . . and wheat is the godliness in You? you ask? If that is the case, then the angels are to be sent at the end of the eon and cast out of the kingdom all who make snares and are doing lawlessness. We must wait till the end of the eon. We must wait for the angels to do the separating.

I am sorry, friend, but part of me is not a part of Satan. And whether we of the nations make snares or do lawlessness, grace superabounds unlike Israel, who, when Christ returns, will be judged by Christ and He will cast out of His kingdom all in Israel who make snares and all doing lawlessness.

It is partly a matter of maturity and partly a matter of unbelief.

Jesus never said that when He comes and sends the angels to cast the bad out of his Kingdom that the sons of the kingdom are the exact same ones as the sons of Satan.

Neither did He ever say that the sons of the kingdom is the good in our flesh and the sons of Satan is the bad in our flesh.

The kingdom of heaven was among the Jews while Jesus was among them.

In Matt.3:2 the kingdom of the heavens was near. If it was in them why was it near but not in them when John the Baptist came?
This talks about those entering into the kingdom of the heavens, not the kingdom of the heavens entering into them:

Mat 5:20 For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

If the kingdom was already in them why did Jesus teach His disciples to pray:

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, on earth also."

And after Christ came and went the disciples were still looking forward to entering the kingdom:

Act 14:22 establishing the souls of the disciples, besides entreating them to remain in the faith and saying that, "Through many afflictions must we be entering into the kingdom of God."

So, friend, when Christ comes back to set up His kingdom when the eon ends, He is going to judge Israel for judgment begins in the house of God. He will send forth His angels and take out of Israel all who make snares and who do lawlessness.

If the sons of Satan stands for the bad in our flesh, how are the angels going to kick that part of us out of the kingdom?

Another bad problem I see with not believing Jesus when He Himself interprets to us what the wheat and the tares are is that when we make fanciful esoteric statements about His interpretation it disqualifies us from having a sound mind. It is not spiritual. It is unbelief.

Tony,
In your quest to disprove spiritual things by embracing your literal points of view, you mix in spiritual with your literal . . . it's no wonder you struggle so much with us.  

You argue
If that is the case, then the angels are to be sent at the end of the eon and cast out of the kingdom all who make snares and are doing lawlessness. We must wait till the end of the eon. We must wait for the angels to do the separating

You're trying to take my analogy and apply your literalism to it.  I never stated that at the end of the eon . . which I guess you're implying that would be at the end of my life on earth . .. angels would come and separate.  You've rejected this from the beginning.  And until you reverse that order, you're never going to see anything else other than what you're mind has already convinced you to be true.

So let me ask you this . . . do you know all things?  I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your truthful answer here would be "no".  And "if" that be the case, then you are also admitting the POSSIBILITY that there may be things your mind doesn't fully know about this either.  Is your mind so vast that it can stand against what it doesn't comprehend and claim that what it doesn't know is false?  

Scriptures say what does the separating . .. let it interpret itself.  Your mind is envisioning winged spirit beings sweeping through the earth and herding up people like cattle at the slaughter.  But that's just not what Scripture is saying . .it's saying messengers . . . and for me, it's not the messenger but the message the messenger is bringing . . which Ephesians states as the Word of God that does the separating . . what does it separate?  It separates soul from spirit . . .life from death . . .wheat from tare.

If you don't see it the same way, that's absolutely fine, but to imply that anyone who sees what you don't are wrong, for me is a slippery road to choose.

[bobf]

Tony,

I did not put repentance into the parable.  No symbol in the parable or explanation of the parable is about repentance.  Ok?

I raised basically one objection to your interpretation of the parable. That objection has nothing to do with when the eon ends or who the reapers are.  It only has to do with what wheat / children of the kingdom and the tares / children of the devil refer to.

My objection was this.

You say that the wheat & tares are people, elected or not-elected before they were born.  The parable does not take place ALL at the end of the eon.  The parable spans time from planting to harvest.  During that time span, events described in elsewhere in scripture unfold.  One such event was Christ calling on people to repent of doing unrighteousness.  That event is NOT described in the parable.  The parable is NOT about that event.  But that event DOES take place sometime within the setting & time span of the entire parable.

1. During the time frame of the parable, Jesus called on people to repent
2. You say each person is either wheat or tare

Therefore one or both of these is true:
1. Jesus called on wheat to repent of unrighteousness
2. Jeuss called on tares to repent of unrighteousness

Can you tell me which or explain why neither would be true?

Please don't muddy the waters with umteen other issues such as angels vs men, reaping being repetance, etc.  My objection is very simple.  My objection is WHY I don't believe the tares & wheat are whole people.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I never said Paul was tare turning into wheat.  It is precisely tares turning into wheat that I am avoiding!

1. Evil and sin were dwelling in Paul and doing the unrighteousness, not Paul (Romans 7:20-22)
2. Whoever doeth unrighteousness is a child of the devil (1 John 3:10)
3. Evil and sin in Paul was a Child of the Devil (from 1 & 2) and common sense tells you these were OF the devil, not OF God.
4. Evil and sin in Paul was a Tare (from 3 & Matthew 13:38)

Each step above follows from scripture and / or the previous step.  I am not figuratively interpreting "children of the devil" I am using 1 John 3:10 as the scriptural definition.

As of Paul writing Romans 7, Paul was still awaiting being "delivered" or "set free" from the situation of evil & sin dwelling in him.

According to my interpretation:
- the wheat are never called on to repent
- the tares are never called on to repent
- each plant only bares its own fruit
- there are no tares turning into wheat

Your interpretation implies that:
- people (includes wheat) were called upon by Jesus to repent of doing unrighteosness
- wheat were doing unrighteousness
- wheat were baring the wrong kind of fruit for wheat
etc.

That is my one and only objection Tony.  It has nothing to do with who reaps or when.

I have not seen any answer to that objection.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Nathan,

Your comments reminded me of something.   I have had what I believe to be spiritual awareness and it is very hard to try to explain it to someone else.  Try as we may, the only way to even begin is to try to come up with some analogy with physical things and they are simply inadequate.

I do agree that everyone is at a different point and that is how God intends for it to be.  I do not say this in a negative way, but 31 pages of this topic is about people desparate to either know greater things spiritually or desparate to try to help someone else understand what they see spiritually.  and to me, that is a good thing.

I have met two people recently that I know God put in my path to help, it excites me to no end, and my enthusiasm cannot be conveyed to these people without appearing like some wierdo, it is very difficult for me to put the brakes on and be patient in a developing relationship with them.  To me I just want to jump in with both feet and love them to death.   I am finding that few people can understand why and I am not sure I have the ability to explain it.

Indeed, it is not about me being better than them, it is desperatly hoping God shows them the same freedom.

Not sure if this will help the thread any or not.

Hi Paul , my brother   it does help ! Gods Spirit is teaching us ,  the ways of God  , I can  know this with a clean heart to speak it ,  your compassion  towards others   is endearing  , I also   feel the same   as God puts these   poor souls and some times stumbling blocks in our path so we will turn to God only for our help and needs  , I can see your humble spirit many times    doing the works of God and am blessed to know you and love you and call you my brother in Christ ..  God be with you and bless you and yours  always in Him ... rose

My dear friend Rose,

thank you.

[rosered]

 
 this is weird to me
 because Jesus Christ is a stumbling block and ROCK of offense

 now hands / works of men  and sinners are an offense to Him ?

look at how they are opposite forces ? its the same word offend   that are  taken out of the kingdom and are burned  by the angels / messengers of God



Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,


1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


1Pe 2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Strong's G4625 - skandalon
σκάνδαλον
Transliteration

skandalon
Pronunciation

skä'n-dä-lon (Key)

Part of Speech

neuter noun

Root Word (Etymology)

probably from a derivative of G2578

TDNT Reference
7:339,1036
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick

a) a trap, snare

b) any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling

c) fig. applied to Jesus Christ, whose person and career were so contrary to the expectations of the Jews concerning the Messiah, that they rejected him and by their obstinacy made shipwreck of their salvation

2) any person or thing by which one is (entrapped) drawn into error or sin

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Strong's G4625 - skandalon
σκάνδαλον
Transliteration

skandalon
Pronunciation

skä'n-dä-lon (Key)

Part of Speech

neuter noun

Root Word (Etymology)

probably from a derivative of G2578

TDNT Reference
7:339,1036
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick

a) a trap, snare

b) any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling

c) fig. applied to Jesus Christ, whose person and career were so contrary to the expectations of the Jews concerning the Messiah, that they rejected him and by their obstinacy made shipwreck of their salvation

2) any person or thing by which one is (entrapped) drawn into error or sin


 It is the same word  and interpretation  :mshock: :icon_flower:

 seems that the works of the flesh are the dead works  that  them tares do  and are so by called Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?


Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?


Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.


Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.


 now God knows we are in a  wicked world run  by sinners and  works of mens hands  and that the wisdom of this world  is what God allows  in His longsuffering  towards us  and that all should repent and be saved

 this would be the end of the world  for us , them works being burned up
 and all things NEW !!!!!  


2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

[Nathan]

Chuckt adds

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies (( tarres )) among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

You can see this in a person being "approved" and made manifest (or evident to Paul)

Romans 16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ

Sure looks like he did this...

2Titus 2:15 **Study** to shew thyself **approved unto God** a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, **rightly dividing** the word of truth.

2Cr 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

Paul appears to "reccognize" those who become manifest telling us we too will reccognize them as well

I thought it was KOOL that Heresies are there to "prove US" thats why WE are to PROVE ALL THINGS  :grin:

Heresies are also listed as a manifest work of THE FLESH. when you look elsewhere it speaks of false prophets "among the people" as there was then so now also

and then look here...

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath SPOKEN a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

I always sorta wondered if this indicated being handed over to Satan for the destruction of THE FLESH (because THATS what heresies are OF) given "being handed over" (( also )) pertained to what was BEING TAUGHT and it was considered "Blaspheme" which I see as  speaking AGAINST (in this regard against the truth). Manifesting as a teaching regarding the Ressurection (of particular concern because it over threw the "hope"). This being handing over was to TEACH them not to do that. Could be wrong but it appears to fit.

God PROVETH YOU to see if you love Him and will CLEAVE unto Him  :bigGrin: Love that!

Hey Kim, just curious . . .you've quoted Titus several times now (study to show thyself approved)  Are you saying that one justifies one's self when one studies the Bible?

For me, I've found that particular verse to say "Study, and you will find you are approved"  In order to see I am approved, I study.  I ponder, my spirit "hovers" over spiritual things as the experience of reproduction releases his life seeds in my womb (woman) of understanding.

[Taffy]

Chuckt adds

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies (( tarres )) among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

You can see this in a person being "approved" and made manifest (or evident to Paul)

Romans 16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ

Sure looks like he did this...

2Titus 2:15 **Study** to shew thyself **approved unto God** a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, **rightly dividing** the word of truth.

2Cr 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

Paul appears to "reccognize" those who become manifest telling us we too will reccognize them as well

I thought it was KOOL that Heresies are there to "prove US" thats why WE are to PROVE ALL THINGS  :grin:

Heresies are also listed as a manifest work of THE FLESH. when you look elsewhere it speaks of false prophets "among the people" as there was then so now also

and then look here...

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath SPOKEN a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

I always sorta wondered if this indicated being handed over to Satan for the destruction of THE FLESH (because THATS what heresies are OF) given "being handed over" (( also )) pertained to what was BEING TAUGHT and it was considered "Blaspheme" which I see as  speaking AGAINST (in this regard against the truth). Manifesting as a teaching regarding the Ressurection (of particular concern because it over threw the "hope"). This being handing over was to TEACH them not to do that. Could be wrong but it appears to fit.

God PROVETH YOU to see if you love Him and will CLEAVE unto Him  :bigGrin: Love that!

Hey Kim, just curious . . .you've quoted Titus several times now (study to show thyself approved)  Are you saying that one justifies one's self when one studies the Bible?

For me, I've found that particular verse to say "Study, and you will find you are approved"  In order to see I am approved, I study.  I ponder, my spirit "hovers" over spiritual things as the experience of reproduction releases his life seeds in my womb (woman) of understanding.

I dont think thats What Kims Implying Nat , More an Understanding of Dividing the FORM from the Reality ,Old man New man.

Study Is the same word used here as Labour or endeavour
Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[rosered]

I wanted to say Amen to Nathan and Roses earlier posts awesome!  :thumbsup:

Rose would a stumbling block be the same as a snare and an offence? Because I read in proverbs (I believe) that the fear of MAN brings "a snare" and when you look at Peter it was his FEAR of the circumcision that caused him not to walk in the truth (which is as an upright stake as you showed me once) and their table being a stumbling block and a snare as well as their BACKS being BENT always would indicate that which was not "UPright". It speaks of the OFFENSE of the cross CEASING in regards to what appears contrary to the circumcision. Jesus also added in (paraphrasing) "Ye are mindful of the things OF MEN and not God" and thats part of the "offence" and stumbling block which appears to reemerge with Peter in Acts and more specifically speaks to him fearing "the circumcision" or the very fear of men that brings a snare spoken in the OT but you can get glimpses of what it can pertain to in regards to the cross.

Not sure just a thought  :HeartThrob:

 Good thoughts  Kim  !   :HeartThrob:the Cross being the upright stake
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 Yes I can see this sis , the Cross being  of no effect  by their own wisdom  :mshock:
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.  savourest phroneō  5426 greek
not the things of God      savourest 1) to have understanding, be wise

2) to feel, to think

a) to have an opinion of one's self, think of one's self, to be modest, not let one's opinion (though just) of himself exceed the bounds of modesty

b) to think or judge what one's opinion is

c) to be of the same mind i.e. agreed together, cherish the same views, be harmonious

3) to direct one's mind to a thing, to seek, to strive for

a) to seek one's interest or advantage

b) to be of one's party, side with him (in public affairs) :icon_flower:

[Zeek]

Chuckt adds

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies (( tarres )) among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

You can see this in a person being "approved" and made manifest (or evident to Paul)

Romans 16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ

Sure looks like he did this...

2Titus 2:15 **Study** to shew thyself **approved unto God** a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, **rightly dividing** the word of truth.

2Cr 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

Paul appears to "reccognize" those who become manifest telling us we too will reccognize them as well

I thought it was KOOL that Heresies are there to "prove US" thats why WE are to PROVE ALL THINGS  :grin:

Heresies are also listed as a manifest work of THE FLESH. when you look elsewhere it speaks of false prophets "among the people" as there was then so now also

and then look here...

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath SPOKEN a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

I always sorta wondered if this indicated being handed over to Satan for the destruction of THE FLESH (because THATS what heresies are OF) given "being handed over" (( also )) pertained to what was BEING TAUGHT and it was considered "Blaspheme" which I see as  speaking AGAINST (in this regard against the truth). Manifesting as a teaching regarding the Ressurection (of particular concern because it over threw the "hope"). This being handing over was to TEACH them not to do that. Could be wrong but it appears to fit.

God PROVETH YOU to see if you love Him and will CLEAVE unto Him  :bigGrin: Love that!

Hey Kim, just curious . . .you've quoted Titus several times now (study to show thyself approved)  Are you saying that one justifies one's self when one studies the Bible?

For me, I've found that particular verse to say "Study, and you will find you are approved"  In order to see I am approved, I study.  I ponder, my spirit "hovers" over spiritual things as the experience of reproduction releases his life seeds in my womb (woman) of understanding.

I dont think thats What Kims Implying Nat , More an Understanding of Dividing the FORM from the Reality ,Old man New man.

Study Is the same word used here as Labour or endeavour
Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Amen another good one to confirm what you showed as study and labour is somewhere in there where it speaks of those who labour in the word and doctrine. The division is everywhere between the covenants, two trees, the old man and new man, soul and Spirit, and even how his words are used. I know I used to see only physical things and try to compare them to other physical things, then physical things with spiritual things then spiritual things with spiritual but the Spirit teaches us and given we are natural by nature His help in making us able to receive the Spiritual is needed because we cant without Him but its an "exercise" and the more you exercise the stronger you become and your progress should also become evident. The more you give yourself over to something the more of a master you become at a thing, but not just in knowledge (or doctrine) but in hearing and doing and its the doing part I am always working on, just speaking for myself  :grin: I havent "arrived" but the goal "seeing Him as He is and being like Him in this world" is

I gotta a VERY long way to go  :grin:

so is this a mixing of old and new wine??  Is this man's destiny, to be between two trees till their physical death?? 

[Zeek]

Zeek I dont understand your question a mans "destiny" between the two covenants?

i'll try another way,

so is all of our life a struggle between the old man and the new man??  always striving for something we can't reach??

hope deferred makes the heart sick. 

but

today

is the day of salvation???

[Zeek]

ok, just this part of your statement confused me


"I havent "arrived" but the goal "seeing Him as He is and being like Him in this world" is

I gotta a VERY long way to go  "



so is this goal achievable?

[Tony N]

Tony,

I did not put repentance into the parable.  No symbol in the parable or explanation of the parable is about repentance.  Ok?

O.K. Then how do (according to you) the sons of the wicked one become sons of the kingdom? or How does (according to you) the tare leave the human?
You state that while the sons of the wicked grow along side the sons of the kingdom that Jesus was telling them to repent. You bring repentence up again and again further down in your post here.

I raised basically one objection to your interpretation of the parable. That objection has nothing to do with when the eon ends or who the reapers are.  It only has to do with what wheat / children of the kingdom and the tares / children of the devil refer to.

My objection was this.

You say that the wheat & tares are people, elected or not-elected before they were born.  The parable does not take place ALL at the end of the eon.  The parable spans time from planting to harvest.  During that time span, events described in elsewhere in scripture unfold.  One such event was Christ calling on people to repent of doing unrighteousness.  That event is NOT described in the parable.  The parable is NOT about that event.  But that event DOES take place sometime within the setting & time span of the entire parable.

But the parable does place all at the end of the eon. Jesus Himself said that at the end of the eon that He would have the angels go forth and take out the tares from the kingdom (not from people's bodies). Jesus is the One Who said that the wheat and tares are people. A son of Abraham is a person who does what Abraham did: believe God. It is not a concept which believes God. It is not a spirit which believes God.
Jesus is the One Who said that "the wheat, these are the sons of the kingdom. The tares are the sons of the wicked one. Jesus was a son. The sons of Israel (Israel being the kingdom of Israel) are they literal sons?
1Thess. 5:5 "for you are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness." Was Paul telling the Thessalonians that they were not really people since light and day cannot really beget sons?
Likewise, sons of the kingdom are really people just as surely as sons of light and sons of the day are really the Thessalonians and believers.

1. During the time frame of the parable, Jesus called on people to repent
2. You say each person is either wheat or tare

Therefore one or both of these is true:
1. Jesus called on wheat to repent of unrighteousness
2. Jeuss called on tares to repent of unrighteousness.
Can you tell me which or explain why neither would be true?

Tony's reply:
See what I mean? You say repentence is not a part of what Jesus said in the parable yet you keep bringing up repentence as if it is germain to the parable. As a matter of fact, Jesus quit telling the people to repent before He brought this parable up. He quit trying to change them. He acclaimed His Father as the Lord of heaven and earth for He hides these things from the wise and prudent and reveals them unto minors (Matt.11:25) and He told His disciples who asked why He speaks to the people in parables that it was so that hearing they would not hear and seeing they would not see so that fulfilled would be Isaiah's prophecy (Matt.13:13). Notice that it was right after Jesus told them the reason He spoke in parables is that He spoke of the parable of the tares and wheat? He was leaving them to be blind and deaf. He was letting the tares grow alongside the wheat. He was not letting anyone interfere with their growing together. So the sons of the kingdom would have to grow up with the sons of the wicked one without interferrence until the end of the eon. Then and only then are they to be interferred with, and that by angels. I realize you don't want to talk about the end of the eon and the angels reaping but it is germain to the parable. Maybe you don't get it because, well, Jesus gave the reason for giving parables? They are then, at the end of the eon, as a whole, reaped by the angels. The sons who make snares and do lawlessness are kicked out of the kingdom to live among the nations. Therefore both your numbers 1 and 2 are false above.

In the parable Jesus never called on the wheat nor the tares to repent of being what they were.  I realize you said He told them to repend when they were planted and growing but that is not part of the parable and should not be imported into the parable.

Please don't muddy the waters with umteen other issues such as angels vs men, reaping being repetance, etc.  My objection is very simple.  My objection is WHY I don't believe the tares & wheat are whole people.

Tony's reply: You therefore object to what Jesus said. He said what the tares and wheat were. The sons of the kingdom are not the same sons as the sons of the wicked one. Did Jesus muddy the waters by bringing up the end of the eon, the angels, etc? You just have a hard time fitting those things into your untennable scenario.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I never said Paul was tare turning into wheat.  It is precisely tares turning into wheat that I am avoiding!

1. Evil and sin were dwelling in Paul and doing the unrighteousness, not Paul (Romans 7:20-22)
2. Whoever doeth unrighteousness is a child of the devil (1 John 3:10)
3. Evil and sin in Paul was a Child of the Devil (from 1 & 2) and common sense tells you these were OF the devil, not OF God.
4. Evil and sin in Paul was a Tare (from 3 & Matthew 13:38)

Friend, I say this in all humility, you are not making sense. In your number 2 above John said "whoever . . . ." That "whoever" is a person. He did not way "whatever doeth . . . but "whoever doeth." It is the "whomever" is the chold of the Adversary. John did not say that "whatever in the person is a child of the Adversary." Therefore your number 3 does not work with numbers 1 and 2.
Also, how does sin and evil in a person repent? I can understand a person repenting, but sin and evil? That, friend, is just not right.

Each step above follows from scripture and / or the previous step.  I am not figuratively interpreting "children of the devil" I am using 1 John 3:10 as the scriptural definition.

As of Paul writing Romans 7, Paul was still awaiting being "delivered" or "set free" from the situation of evil & sin dwelling in him.

According to my interpretation:
- the wheat are never called on to repent
- the tares are never called on to repent
- each plant only bares its own fruit
- there are no tares turning into wheat

In the parable no one is called on to repent!

Your interpretation implies that:
- people (includes wheat) were called upon by Jesus to repent of doing unrighteosness
- wheat were doing unrighteousness
- wheat were baring the wrong kind of fruit for wheat
etc.

That is my one and only objection Tony.  It has nothing to do with who reaps or when.

I have not seen any answer to that objection.

I hope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.

My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).

[Taffy]

Likewise, sons of the kingdom are really people just as surely as sons of light and sons of the day are really the Thessalonians and believers.

WHAT is  this Light and DAY referring to Tony?

When did these folk LIVE in the DAY?

Just thought to ask

:icon_flower:

[rosered]

hope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.

My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).

Who keeps all the Law Tony ? men in the flesh ? works of mens hands ?   ,   the mind of Christ keeps it and those whom are in Christ
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.  a good thrashing is how wheat is  gathered  :thumbsup:

1) illegitimate, bastard

2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave



 Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.    


1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black ,

a bastard wheat  


again we go back and forth to  childbearing  and what is HOLY  

[Taffy]

hope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.

My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).

Who keeps all the Law Tony ? men in the flesh ? works of mens hands ?   ,   the mind of Christ keeps it and those whom are in Christ
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.  a good thrashing is how wheat is  gathered  :thumbsup:

1) illegitimate, bastard

2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave



 Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.    


1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black ,

a bastard wheat  


again we go back and forth to  childbearing  and what is HOLY  

:thumbsup: , A good thrashing   is GOOD for Him :icon_flower:


Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.  :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Tony,

I did not put repentance into the parable.  No symbol in the parable or explanation of the parable is about repentance.  Ok?

O.K. Then how do (according to you) the sons of the wicked one become sons of the kingdom? or How does (according to you) the tare leave the human?
You state that while the sons of the wicked grow along side the sons of the kingdom that Jesus was telling them to repent. You bring repentence up again and again further down in your post here.

I raised basically one objection to your interpretation of the parable. That objection has nothing to do with when the eon ends or who the reapers are.  It only has to do with what wheat / children of the kingdom and the tares / children of the devil refer to.

My objection was this.

You say that the wheat & tares are people, elected or not-elected before they were born.  The parable does not take place ALL at the end of the eon.  The parable spans time from planting to harvest.  During that time span, events described in elsewhere in scripture unfold.  One such event was Christ calling on people to repent of doing unrighteousness.  That event is NOT described in the parable.  The parable is NOT about that event.  But that event DOES take place sometime within the setting & time span of the entire parable.

But the parable does place all at the end of the eon. Jesus Himself said that at the end of the eon that He would have the angels go forth and take out the tares from the kingdom (not from people's bodies). Jesus is the One Who said that the wheat and tares are people. A son of Abraham is a person who does what Abraham did: believe God. It is not a concept which believes God. It is not a spirit which believes God.
Jesus is the One Who said that "the wheat, these are the sons of the kingdom. The tares are the sons of the wicked one. Jesus was a son. The sons of Israel (Israel being the kingdom of Israel) are they literal sons?
1Thess. 5:5 "for you are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness." Was Paul telling the Thessalonians that they were not really people since light and day cannot really beget sons?
Likewise, sons of the kingdom are really people just as surely as sons of light and sons of the day are really the Thessalonians and believers.

1. During the time frame of the parable, Jesus called on people to repent
2. You say each person is either wheat or tare

Therefore one or both of these is true:
1. Jesus called on wheat to repent of unrighteousness
2. Jeuss called on tares to repent of unrighteousness.
Can you tell me which or explain why neither would be true?

Tony's reply:
See what I mean? You say repentence is not a part of what Jesus said in the parable yet you keep bringing up repentence as if it is germain to the parable. As a matter of fact, Jesus quit telling the people to repent before He brought this parable up. He quit trying to change them. He acclaimed His Father as the Lord of heaven and earth for He hides these things from the wise and prudent and reveals them unto minors (Matt.11:25) and He told His disciples who asked why He speaks to the people in parables that it was so that hearing they would not hear and seeing they would not see so that fulfilled would be Isaiah's prophecy (Matt.13:13). Notice that it was right after Jesus told them the reason He spoke in parables is that He spoke of the parable of the tares and wheat? He was leaving them to be blind and deaf. He was letting the tares grow alongside the wheat. He was not letting anyone interfere with their growing together. So the sons of the kingdom would have to grow up with the sons of the wicked one without interferrence until the end of the eon. Then and only then are they to be interferred with, and that by angels. I realize you don't want to talk about the end of the eon and the angels reaping but it is germain to the parable. Maybe you don't get it because, well, Jesus gave the reason for giving parables? They are then, at the end of the eon, as a whole, reaped by the angels. The sons who make snares and do lawlessness are kicked out of the kingdom to live among the nations. Therefore both your numbers 1 and 2 are false above.

In the parable Jesus never called on the wheat nor the tares to repent of being what they were.  I realize you said He told them to repend when they were planted and growing but that is not part of the parable and should not be imported into the parable.

Please don't muddy the waters with umteen other issues such as angels vs men, reaping being repetance, etc.  My objection is very simple.  My objection is WHY I don't believe the tares & wheat are whole people.

Tony's reply: You therefore object to what Jesus said. He said what the tares and wheat were. The sons of the kingdom are not the same sons as the sons of the wicked one. Did Jesus muddy the waters by bringing up the end of the eon, the angels, etc? You just have a hard time fitting those things into your untennable scenario.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I never said Paul was tare turning into wheat.  It is precisely tares turning into wheat that I am avoiding!

1. Evil and sin were dwelling in Paul and doing the unrighteousness, not Paul (Romans 7:20-22)
2. Whoever doeth unrighteousness is a child of the devil (1 John 3:10)
3. Evil and sin in Paul was a Child of the Devil (from 1 & 2) and common sense tells you these were OF the devil, not OF God.
4. Evil and sin in Paul was a Tare (from 3 & Matthew 13:38)

Friend, I say this in all humility, you are not making sense. In your number 2 above John said "whoever . . . ." That "whoever" is a person. He did not way "whatever doeth . . . but "whoever doeth." It is the "whomever" is the chold of the Adversary. John did not say that "whatever in the person is a child of the Adversary." Therefore your number 3 does not work with numbers 1 and 2.
Also, how does sin and evil in a person repent? I can understand a person repenting, but sin and evil? That, friend, is just not right.

Each step above follows from scripture and / or the previous step.  I am not figuratively interpreting "children of the devil" I am using 1 John 3:10 as the scriptural definition.

As of Paul writing Romans 7, Paul was still awaiting being "delivered" or "set free" from the situation of evil & sin dwelling in him.

According to my interpretation:
- the wheat are never called on to repent
- the tares are never called on to repent
- each plant only bares its own fruit
- there are no tares turning into wheat

In the parable no one is called on to repent!

Your interpretation implies that:
- people (includes wheat) were called upon by Jesus to repent of doing unrighteosness
- wheat were doing unrighteousness
- wheat were baring the wrong kind of fruit for wheat
etc.

That is my one and only objection Tony.  It has nothing to do with who reaps or when.

I have not seen any answer to that objection.

I hope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.

My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).

:bdh: :bdh: :bdh: :bdh: :bdh:

[Tony N]

hope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.

My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).

Who keeps all the Law Tony ? men in the flesh ? works of mens hands ?   ,   the mind of Christ keeps it and those whom are in Christ
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.  a good thrashing is how wheat is  gathered  :thumbsup:

1) illegitimate, bastard

2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave



 Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.    


1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black ,

a bastard wheat  


again we go back and forth to  childbearing  and what is HOLY  

Again, rosered, it is a moot point you bring up. The sons of the wicked one are the humans who make snares and do lawlessness. Those sons, at the end of the eon will the angels kick out of the kingdom. The sons of the kingdom remain.
The thrashing is not part of the parable. The part of the parable is that the tares cast out of the kingdom by the angels. One can only go so far with a parable. So the thrashing has no part in this parable. Christ didn't bring it up and neither should we.
Also chastening and thrashing are not the same thing.

Sorry.

Tony

[rosered]

Likewise, sons of the kingdom are really people just as surely as sons of light and sons of the day are really the Thessalonians and believers.

WHAT is  this Light and DAY referring to Tony?

When did these folk LIVE in the DAY?

Just thought to ask

:icon_flower:

Exactly "children OF THE DAY" the gates will not be *SHUT* BY DAY :grin: ((Behold)) **I** set before thee an *OPEN* door... Children of THE DAY are "no more of the night"

And there shall be no night "there"

He's all THAT then some  :thumbsup:

amen !
  Pauls word and Christ Spirit confirms this in us right now!!

Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2Cr 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

2Cr 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:


2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2Cr 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

2Cr 4:8 [We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair;
2Cr 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;


2Cr 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.


2Cr 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2Cr 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

 wow , how profound  this really is !   Thank you Jesus for the  opportunity   and witness to become so real  in our lives and in our deaths!