Natural and Spiritual

[rosered]

Hey Rose, when God breathed into the Adams NOSTRILS didnt he breathe into HIS WRATH or anger? I recall you showed that to me once...Thinking bout that take a second look here

Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. **THESE ARE** A SMOKE in MY NOSE, A FIRE that burneth all the day.

Children of Nostrils or His NOSE?   Children of wrath or anger   get it sis?   the anger of man does not cause the righteousness of God or something like that? lol

  this is ?


Jam 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.


Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:


Jam 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.


  wrath here is orgē    3709 Greek
1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character

2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger

3) anger, wrath, indignation

4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself

a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates

[bobf]

Dear Bob, Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
The parable says nothing to do with the tares "having to repent, repent of doing righteousness, repent of being a child of the devil." Christ also neither said nor even intimated that the tares had to repent of being tares. Neither did I imply that. So, yes, of course this is messed up.

Tony, I didnt say that the parable is about tares repenting and becoming wheat, nor did I say that reaping is repenting.  What I said is that if your interpretation of wheat and tares is applied to other gospel scriptures (where people are called on by Jesus to repent) then those scriptures are about tares repenting and becoming wheat.

Do you deny that Jesus called on people doing unrighteousness to repent and do righteousness?
Then if every peson is either tare or wheat then Jesus was either:
[1] calling on wheat to repent
[2] calling on tares to repent

Can you tell me which?

In contrast, who did Paul say was doing unrighteousness when he sinned?  Did Paul say his whole self sinned?  Or did he say it was "no more I that do it" and "evil is present with me" and "sin that dwelleth in me".

• Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.

If you are saying that the tare inside of you is the bad part inside of you, how do the angels come and take that bad part out of you and cast it out of the kingdom and burn it up? How does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?

Like they did for Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4.

• Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones...

Look at the heart of Nebuchadnezzar before he was judged.  If you will notice, he was worshipping himself.

• Daniel 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

Here is the heart of Nebuchadnezzar after he was judged.

• Daniel 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Neb's old heart was removed from within him, leaving a new heart in a process of judgment that took seven times to complete.  Probably some wailing and gnashing of teeth was going on there.  That whole process of judgment was the reaping & burning of tares.

How does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?

Only if you think Paul was schiziod in Romans 7:19=22 above.

When the angels are sent by the Son of Mankind they are sent at the end of the eon.  Some (at least one, Fireinfold) believes that the end of the eon happened when Jesus appeared almost 2000 years ago.

According to 1 Cor 10:11 the ends of the eon were come upon them.  I believe this is primarily a spiritual event in the lives of God's people rather than a physical historical event.  So I do not believe at all that it happened in 70AD as a singular physical event.   Saying it is primarily a spiritual event does not preclude that it is also describing a future singular historical event like you envision.

If that is the case, Bob, then almost 2000 years ago Christ already sent in his angels and already did the reaping of all the tares and wheat so you are about 2000 years too late to have the tares separated from the wheat in your body.

• Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


• Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

What did Jesus say to all?  "When YE SHALL SEE these things come to pass..."

The messengers/angels go into the kingdom and cast out of that kingdom all the snares and all who are doing lawlessness. It says nothing about repentence. It says nothing about the wheat and the tares being in each individual person.

The parable also says nothing about wheat & tares being individual whole people.

Parable Says
tare = children of the wicked one

Scripture Says
children of the wicked one = those who do unrighteousness

Scripture Says
those who do unrighteousness = it is no more I who do it but evil & sin present within me

Therefore
tare = sin & evil within the person, not the whole person

[bobf]

Good post Bobf, whats interesting too is the binding up of the tares and how the disciples were given the power to bind or loose, think that could apply?

Those scriptures actually came to mind while I was writing my last post.  Not sure how they apply or what they mean though.  :sigh:

Job 36:13 But the hypocrites in heart heap up wrath: they cry not when he bindeth them.

Heap up and treasurest up are the same between them in relation to wrath

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

Interesting.  Here's another translation: "The godless in heart cherish anger; they do not cry for help when he binds them.

Maybe somethings in this in regards to the binding them and the revelation of Gods righteous Judgment even when Jesus Christ is revealed with his angels who bind them in bundles and the binding and loosing given to His disciples?

I didn't quite get that part, can you rephrase?

Thanks,
Bob

[rosered]

 

  good  stuff Kimbo ,


Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.


Jhn 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
remit

1) to send away

a) to bid going away or depart

1) of a husband divorcing his wife

b) to send forth, yield up, to expire

c) to let go, let alone, let be

1) to disregard

2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)

a) of teachers, writers and speakers

3) to omit, neglect

d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit

e) to give up, keep no longer

2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person

3) to leave, go way from one

a) in order to go to another place

b) to depart from any one

c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned

d) to desert wrongfully

e) to go away leaving something behind

f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion

g) to leave on dying, leave behind one

h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining

i) abandon, leave destitute


Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.


Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] you retain, they are retained.
retain  1) to have power, be powerful

a) to be chief, be master of, to rule

2) to get possession of

a) to become master of, to obtain

b) to take hold of

c) to take hold of, take, seize

1) to lay hands on one in order to get him into one's power

3) to hold

a) to hold in the hand

b) to hold fast, i.e. not discard or let go

1) to keep carefully and faithfully

c) to continue to hold, to retain

1) of death continuing to hold one

2) to hold in check, restrain


seems Jesus is saying   to forgive or to hold accountable dont it ?!!! :mshock:

[peacemaker]

Tony, take two aspirin, it helps thin the blood and will set you free from a headache.

But, you may need to increase the dosage – after the last few posts. :bottlebump:

peacemaker

[rosered]

seems Jesus is saying   to forgive or to hold accountable dont it ?!!!

Sorta explains Pauls response about Alexander the coppersmith (who did him much harm) when he said "Lord REPAY Him" (bind him) verses "Lord FORGIVE Him" (loose him) maybe?

What do you think?

 It sure  does seem that way to me , I really dont understand   the  word remit    by itself and how it is applied in the biblical  sense ,  the  word  definitions do help
   with that single verse   I could never  get it  lol :dontknow:

Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] you retain, they are retained.   what????


 I thought of the same  thing!!  
Alexander the coppersmith  too!,  and How Paul held him accountable to God repayment   plan  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

Rose the word "permit" sorta reminds me of ones obedience being "fulfilled"  too because Paul speaks of when your obedience is fulfilled every act of disobedience would be punished

  Yes sis , its is a type  of    power given a Standard maybe ?

  #3 in the dict  defintions  :thumbsup:
  3. a rule or principle that is used as a basis for judgment:


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/standard

[Zeek]

Dear Bob, Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
The parable says nothing to do with the tares "having to repent, repent of doing righteousness, repent of being a child of the devil." Christ also neither said nor even intimated that the tares had to repent of being tares. Neither did I imply that. So, yes, of course this is messed up.

Tony, I didnt say that the parable is about tares repenting and becoming wheat, nor did I say that reaping is repenting.  What I said is that if your interpretation of wheat and tares is applied to other gospel scriptures (where people are called on by Jesus to repent) then those scriptures are about tares repenting and becoming wheat.

Do you deny that Jesus called on people doing unrighteousness to repent and do righteousness?
Then if every peson is either tare or wheat then Jesus was either:
[1] calling on wheat to repent
[2] calling on tares to repent

Can you tell me which?

In contrast, who did Paul say was doing unrighteousness when he sinned?  Did Paul say his whole self sinned?  Or did he say it was "no more I that do it" and "evil is present with me" and "sin that dwelleth in me".

• Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.

If you are saying that the tare inside of you is the bad part inside of you, how do the angels come and take that bad part out of you and cast it out of the kingdom and burn it up? How does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?

Like they did for Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4.

• Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones...

Look at the heart of Nebuchadnezzar before he was judged.  If you will notice, he was worshipping himself.

• Daniel 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

Here is the heart of Nebuchadnezzar after he was judged.

• Daniel 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Neb's old heart was removed from within him, leaving a new heart in a process of judgment that took seven times to complete.  Probably some wailing and gnashing of teeth was going on there.  That whole process of judgment was the reaping & burning of tares.

How does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?

Only if you think Paul was schiziod in Romans 7:19=22 above.

When the angels are sent by the Son of Mankind they are sent at the end of the eon.  Some (at least one, Fireinfold) believes that the end of the eon happened when Jesus appeared almost 2000 years ago.

According to 1 Cor 10:11 the ends of the eon were come upon them.  I believe this is primarily a spiritual event in the lives of God's people rather than a physical historical event.  So I do not believe at all that it happened in 70AD as a singular physical event.   Saying it is primarily a spiritual event does not preclude that it is also describing a future singular historical event like you envision.

If that is the case, Bob, then almost 2000 years ago Christ already sent in his angels and already did the reaping of all the tares and wheat so you are about 2000 years too late to have the tares separated from the wheat in your body.

• Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


• Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

What did Jesus say to all?  "When YE SHALL SEE these things come to pass..."

The messengers/angels go into the kingdom and cast out of that kingdom all the snares and all who are doing lawlessness. It says nothing about repentence. It says nothing about the wheat and the tares being in each individual person.

The parable also says nothing about wheat & tares being individual whole people.

Parable Says
tare = children of the wicked one

Scripture Says
children of the wicked one = those who do unrighteousness

Scripture Says
those who do unrighteousness = it is no more I who do it but evil & sin present within me

Therefore
tare = sin & evil within the person, not the whole person

Hi bob, enjoyed the post.  

so do u think that nebach. was an example of "all people", including those "who believe on HIM", and do you see anywhere that his "faith" was tried in fire??  

I can agree that all people are tares, children of wrath at the start; but it does seem to me that the new testament talks of two peoples; ones who were given eyes to see, ears to hear; that repented and believed on HIM ("isaacs" per galatians 4), and who underwent baptism ("drinking of the cup)/ having their faith tried by fire;

and there were those who hung to their old mindest, never repented ("ishamels" per gal 4); denied Jesus come in the flesh, refused to give up "hanging" onto self righteousness through the law; and did see their house come crashing down, with NOTHING left, desolate; a perpetual shame. (which I do see as having happened in 70 ad).  

and if this is a continual "is, was and will be", then there are those today who have been given eyes to see, ears to hear and are going through "baptism" with a trial of their faith;

and those

who will go down in shame.  


what ya think?

 

[rosered]

 
 Hi Kim ,
 you Know I  feel Jesus is the standard  and  set the rule , meausing line
  When he  told us to pray for our  enemies , that was  taking the Law to another level [higher standard]
 that had not been in effect before , it was eye for eye  and tooth for tooth  '

thought of this  one .....And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

 what do you think that means ?  to loose on earth and heaven
 or bind on earth and heaven ?

[Chris]

Didnt Jesus appear once in the end of the world? End of what world then Tony?

But he was Lamb that was crucified BEFORE the foundation of the world, what world was that too? And yet the flood was a figure of batism itself, how do you work that?

Tony any thought on this one?

Dear Fireinfolding,
I cannot find the verse where it stated that "Jesus appear once in the end of the world." could you please reference that verse?

Here it is Tony

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

As to your second statement:

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Lamb was slain proleptically from the disruption; actually, of course, He was slain at Golgotha.
The blood of Christ was
1Pe 1:20 "foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world, yet manifested in the last times because of you, who through Him are believing in God,

Just as Abraham carried the death of his son for days before ascending the mountain, so God carried the death of His Son for many thousands of years before the mount of Golgotha.

Tony thats the verse and you are correct on the BEFORE the foundation of the earth, thats my fault I cant always quote very well depending on what puter Im on.  The word is FROM the foundation of the world, now I reckon it the same given theres a foundation but I also hate when His words arent used so my appologies on freehanding that.

Yes I agree with him being foreordained and the propheticness of it

1Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

And he was also the lamb slain from the foundation of the world who appeared once in the end of the world, I understand the prophetic implications by that meaning I can see The cross of Christ hidden in the days of Genesis and I know God calls things that are not as though they are but its the wording concerning what he said, He said the harvest is at the end of the world, he also said SAY NOT **four months** till the harvest (if your following his every word). So Jesus is saying WHEN the harvest is *the end of the world* and tells us what NOT to say in regards to this harvest yet the appostles are confirming he came ONCE **the end of** the world. So my question is which world? The old world (and God not sparing it) is linked specifically to Noah yet at the same time Peter speaks of Noahs time as a FIGURE of the baptism that saves and so Jesus appearing once in the end of the world collaberates with this figure concerning the baptism that speaks back to the end of the world at that time and pulls it forward in Christ who come in the end of that world.

Im not sure if Im being clear or you can understand what Im getting at

:mrflo: If he really didn't know, he wouldn't have corrected ya earlier by posting the same verse from a different translation, in this post: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3960.msg44519#msg44519

:laughing7:

[rosered]

Rose look up the other word "retain" 2192 thats attached to the word "child" and to Jesus words "hath 2192 power" or ears etc. Is it contrary to remit in that respect, having power verses not having power?

Gees this is irking me  :grin: Still looking

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

with child 1722 1064 2192   this can really apply to so many things  :mshock:   to hold /possess

 I cannot narrow it down  lol.......  sorry maybe some one else or you can ?
   it is interesting  enough though ....  :thumbsup:

[Zeek]

I just don't see how Paul in his writings was not talking about two people's.  those stuck in old covenant thinking;

and those given eyes and ears to hear/ believers.

If u take the writings as still applying to us in the same way as they did to those Paul was writing to, then to me that only makes sense.  Paul was being brutally persecuted by "a people", not by himself.  There was "old covenant" people, and "new covenant" people.  

But, for me, I can see the validity of the "internal wheat and tares", and see it as applicable as "one" way of applying or "one layer" of scripture;

but for me, it can be applied this way only if one sees the scriptures not applying to us in the same way as it was occuring then.

Hope that makes sense.  

Rom 9:33  even as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

Mar 8:38  For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man also shall be ashamed of him, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

1Jn 2:28  And now, my little children, abide in him; that, if he shall be manifested, we may have boldness, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

2Th 3:14  And if any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle, note that man, that ye have no company with him, to the end that he may be ashamed.


Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

[Tony N]

Dear Bob, Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
The parable says nothing to do with the tares "having to repent, repent of doing righteousness, repent of being a child of the devil." Christ also neither said nor even intimated that the tares had to repent of being tares. Neither did I imply that. So, yes, of course this is messed up.

Tony, I didnt say that the parable is about tares repenting and becoming wheat, nor did I say that reaping is repenting.  What I said is that if your interpretation of wheat and tares is applied to other gospel scriptures (where people are called on by Jesus to repent) then those scriptures are about tares repenting and becoming wheat.

Do you deny that Jesus called on people doing unrighteousness to repent and do righteousness?
Then if every peson is either tare or wheat then Jesus was either:
[1] calling on wheat to repent
[2] calling on tares to repent

Can you tell me which?

In contrast, who did Paul say was doing unrighteousness when he sinned?  Did Paul say his whole self sinned?  Or did he say it was "no more I that do it" and "evil is present with me" and "sin that dwelleth in me".

• Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.

If you are saying that the tare inside of you is the bad part inside of you, how do the angels come and take that bad part out of you and cast it out of the kingdom and burn it up? How does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?

Like they did for Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4.

• Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones...

Look at the heart of Nebuchadnezzar before he was judged.  If you will notice, he was worshipping himself.

• Daniel 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

Here is the heart of Nebuchadnezzar after he was judged.

• Daniel 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Neb's old heart was removed from within him, leaving a new heart in a process of judgment that took seven times to complete.  Probably some wailing and gnashing of teeth was going on there.  That whole process of judgment was the reaping & burning of tares.

How does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?

Only if you think Paul was schiziod in Romans 7:19=22 above.

When the angels are sent by the Son of Mankind they are sent at the end of the eon.  Some (at least one, Fireinfold) believes that the end of the eon happened when Jesus appeared almost 2000 years ago.

According to 1 Cor 10:11 the ends of the eon were come upon them.  I believe this is primarily a spiritual event in the lives of God's people rather than a physical historical event.  So I do not believe at all that it happened in 70AD as a singular physical event.   Saying it is primarily a spiritual event does not preclude that it is also describing a future singular historical event like you envision.

If that is the case, Bob, then almost 2000 years ago Christ already sent in his angels and already did the reaping of all the tares and wheat so you are about 2000 years too late to have the tares separated from the wheat in your body.

• Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


• Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

What did Jesus say to all?  "When YE SHALL SEE these things come to pass..."

The messengers/angels go into the kingdom and cast out of that kingdom all the snares and all who are doing lawlessness. It says nothing about repentence. It says nothing about the wheat and the tares being in each individual person.

The parable also says nothing about wheat & tares being individual whole people.

Parable Says
tare = children of the wicked one

Scripture Says
children of the wicked one = those who do unrighteousness

Scripture Says
those who do unrighteousness = it is no more I who do it but evil & sin present within me

Therefore
tare = sin & evil within the person, not the whole person

Dear Bob,
You say you don't make the parable be about repentence but in fact you do.

You keep evading the important points I made as well.

The angels do the reaping. The angels do the binding up of the tares, not the disciples as fireinfolding intimates. Angels or messengers. Now please everyone, repeat at least 100 times so maybe you get it:  

Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

The angels are not the tares nor the wheat. Neither the tares nor the wheat are called upon to repent. The ones making snares and doing lawlessness are the sons of the wicked one. At the end of this eon those sons are kicked out of the kingdom AT THE END OF THE EON by angels and then the 1000 year eon begins and those sons of the wicked one will not be enjoying any part in that kingdom for the duration thereof.

The culling takes place at the end of the eon. It does not take place when a person repents or, as Bob imagines that it is possible for a tare to become a wheat (is that possible in nature?).

This is all just fancy muddying up by Bob of what is made very clear by Christ.

The point Bob makes about Christ telling people to repent in other passages has not one thing to do with what is going to happen at the end of the eon. Obviously there comes a time in God's plan when the eon ends in which there is no room for repentence. There has come a point in time when God is going to just kick out the workers of evil out of His kingdom by using the angels to do it. So repentence is a moot point.

Please, repeat after me: "end of the eon." "end of the eon." "end of the eon." "end of the eon."

Bob, you bring Paul into the picture which Christ never even in His wildest imagination ever would have done so. So what if the sin which dwelt in Paul caused him to do what he didn't want to do? The point is is that at the end of the eon Christ is going to kick out of His kingdom all making snares and DOING LAWLESSNESS . . . at the end of the eon . . . at the end of the eon . . . at the end of the eon.

Paul was not reaped at the end of the eon. Angels did not reap Paul. If they had before Christ called him he would have been kicked out to the kingdom and would have been weeping and gnashing his teeth for the duration of the 1000 year kingdom.

Does it really make sense to you that Christians are a composite of Satan and Christ? Is Satan in the body of Christ?

You also say that the tares are not the whole person but what is part of the person (from what I gather).  Christ said that the tares are the sons of the wicked one. He never said that the tares are a composite part of a person.

And finally, you are taking what Christ said in which He started with a figure and ended with a literal meaning to that figure and you are changing the literal back into a figure which Christ never intended. It is its own interpretation. It needs no further interpretation.

So to sum up my points:

This judgment takes place at the end of the eon.
The sons of the kingdom get to stay in the kingdom.
The sons of the wicked one get kicked out of the kingdom by the angels.
Repentence has no place in this judgment.

Love and sorry if my Scriptural reasoning is giving you folks a headache!

Tony

[Tony N]

Tony, take two aspirin, it helps thin the blood and will set you free from a headache.

But, you may need to increase the dosage – after the last few posts. :bottlebump:

peacemaker

I'm not the one with the headache. I said I'm sorry if I give you folks a headache.
The truth hurts (you) and then it sets you free.

[bobf]

Hi bob, enjoyed the post.  

so do u think that nebach. was an example of "all people", including those "who believe on HIM", and do you see anywhere that his "faith" was tried in fire??

Yes, I think Neb. is an example of all people, but at the time that God sends them his word, they clearly hear His word, then they proceed to ignore it.

I don't read anything in Daniel 4 that shows his faith being tried, but in the big picture I get throughout scripture I believe that the faith every person will be tried.  All we get in Daniel 4 is that he "looks up" which seems to signify faith, and then God restores Him.  It's just not showing that aspect.  But scriptures seem to be like that.  They don't always tell the whole story in one place.  That would be too easy! ;)

I can agree that all people are tares, children of wrath at the start; but it does seem to me that the new testament talks of two peoples; ones who were given eyes to see, ears to hear; that repented and believed on HIM ("isaacs" per galatians 4), and who underwent baptism ("drinking of the cup)/ having their faith tried by fire;  and there were those who hung to their old mindest, never repented ("ishamels" per gal 4); denied Jesus come in the flesh, refused to give up "hanging" onto self righteousness through the law; and did see their house come crashing down, with NOTHING left, desolate; a perpetual shame. (which I do see as having happened in 70 ad).  and if this is a continual "is, was and will be", then there are those today who have been given eyes to see, ears to hear and are going through "baptism" with a trial of their faith; and those who will go down in shame.  what ya think?

Based on how I see things now... I agree there are those two types of people in scripture, but I see those as two types of people that every person "goes through".  Saul / Paul seems to exemplify both types.   From what I gather from Psalm 107, all the redeemed of the Lord first condemn and rebel against God's word.  None of them repent or seek mercy upon hearing the command.  Only after God brings them down.  I believe everyone sees their house come down.  I don't think self-righteousness in the law as the only kind of "house" built on the sand.  For exmaple, I think Neb. saw himself as God-like, not righteous or godly.

This is the tentative picture I have in my mind:
1. God sends His word
2. Every person condemns God's word
3. God brings them down
4. Repentance, return to God, seek mercy
5. God has mercy on them and delivers
6. God tries faith / circumcizes heart

Psalm 107 shows 1-5.
Nebuchadnezzar Daniel 4 shows 1-5 but 6 might be buried within the seven times wihtout expounding on it.
Deuteronomy 30 shows 1-6
Lamentations 3 shows 1-6
The NT generally focuses mostly on 1,4,5,6 but I think 2&3 are in there

Also, I think some of the faith trying is enduring the self-inflicted ruin the proceeded repentance.

As far as 70AD I think the was a fulfillment but not THE fulfillment. such that they are done being fulfilled.

Again, tenative... still trying to understand.

[Zeek]

Hi bob, enjoyed the post.  

so do u think that nebach. was an example of "all people", including those "who believe on HIM", and do you see anywhere that his "faith" was tried in fire??

Yes, I think Neb. is an example of all people, but at the time that God sends them his word, they clearly hear His word, then they proceed to ignore it.

I don't read anything in Daniel 4 that shows his faith being tried, but in the big picture I get throughout scripture I believe that the faith every person will be tried.  All we get in Daniel 4 is that he "looks up" which seems to signify faith, and then God restores Him.  It's just not showing that aspect.  But scriptures seem to be like that.  They don't always tell the whole story in one place.  That would be too easy! ;)

I can agree that all people are tares, children of wrath at the start; but it does seem to me that the new testament talks of two peoples; ones who were given eyes to see, ears to hear; that repented and believed on HIM ("isaacs" per galatians 4), and who underwent baptism ("drinking of the cup)/ having their faith tried by fire;  and there were those who hung to their old mindest, never repented ("ishamels" per gal 4); denied Jesus come in the flesh, refused to give up "hanging" onto self righteousness through the law; and did see their house come crashing down, with NOTHING left, desolate; a perpetual shame. (which I do see as having happened in 70 ad).  and if this is a continual "is, was and will be", then there are those today who have been given eyes to see, ears to hear and are going through "baptism" with a trial of their faith; and those who will go down in shame.  what ya think?

Based on how I see things now... I agree there are those two types of people in scripture, but I see those as two types of people that every person "goes through".  Saul / Paul seems to exemplify both types.   From what I gather from Psalm 107, all the redeemed of the Lord first condemn and rebel against God's word.  None of them repent or seek mercy upon hearing the command.  Only after God brings them down.  I believe everyone sees their house come down.  I don't think self-righteousness in the law as the only kind of "house" built on the sand.  For exmaple, I think Neb. saw himself as God-like, not righteous or godly.

This is the tentative picture I have in my mind:
1. God sends His word
2. Every person condemns God's word
3. God brings them down
4. Repentance, return to God, seek mercy
5. God has mercy on them and delivers
6. God tries faith / circumcizes heart

Psalm 107 shows 1-5.
Nebuchadnezzar Daniel 4 shows 1-5 but 6 might be buried within the seven times wihtout expounding on it.
Deuteronomy 30 shows 1-6
Lamentations 3 shows 1-6
The NT generally focuses mostly on 1,4,5,6 but I think 2&3 are in there

Also, I think some of the faith trying is enduring the self-inflicted ruin the proceeded repentance.

As far as 70AD I think the was a fulfillment but not THE fulfillment. such that they are done being fulfilled.

Again, tenative... still trying to understand.

thanks bobf for input, I appreciate your posts.

wondering how u see these this verse, and how you relate it to nebec. story and it being the process all men go through.

Mat 21:44  And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.


I see this as:

narrow (life, broken, ears to hear, faith) vs. wide (destruction, perpetual shame).

or

Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mat 7:25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.

Mat 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Mat 7:27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


are you saying before a person can go through the narrow door, he first had to go through the wide door,

crushed, ground first,

then converted,

then broken?? 


thanks

z

[bobf]

thanks bobf for input, I appreciate your posts. wondering how u see these this verse, and how you relate it to nebec. story and it being the process all men go through.

Mat 21:44  And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

I see this as: narrow (life, broken, ears to hear, faith) vs. wide (destruction, perpetual shame).

That's the way I aways read it.  I have heard an opposite view where falling on the stone is stumbling on the stone and being crushed to powder is the "good" side but I've never studied it and I really have no idea.

Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mat 7:25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.

Mat 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Mat 7:27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

are you saying before a person can go through the narrow door, he first had to go through the wide door,

I'm not saying anyone has to do go through the wide gate first like it's some kind of requirement.  It just seems to me that scriptures say that everyone does.  The conditions are set in the verses you quoted.  Whoever does not do the will of the Lord his house will fall.  So does eveyone not do the will of the Lord to the point that his house falls?

When I read Psalm 107 which is all about the redeemed of the Lord, I see a repetition of houses built on the sand that are falling.

• Psalms 107:2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy; 3 And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.

First they rebelled against God's Word.  How can their house not fall?

• Psalms 107:11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High.

The Psalm repeats the same story over and over.

#1

• Psalm 107:4 They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in. 5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them. 6 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses. 7 And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation. 8 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! 9 For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.

#2

• Psalm 107:10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; 11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: 12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. 13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. 14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. 15 Oh that men would praise the LORD [for] his goodness, and [for] his wonderful works to the children of men! 16 For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder

#3

• Psalm 107:17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted. 18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death. 19 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses. 20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. 21 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! 22 And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.

and it goes on with a few more like that.

And then there is this passage about salvation:

• Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

So Christ is transforming things like this:

broken hearted ---> bind up
captives ---> liberty
prison ---> opening
mourning ---> comfort
ashes ---> beauty
spirit of heavines ---> garment of praise

My question is, why are they broken-hearted, captive, in prison, mourning, spirit of heaviness, and in ashes?  Pretty clear that they must have reaped what they sowed.  Is that the same as saying their house fell?

And in the middle of those bad/good pairs, there is one more bad/good pair:
- acceptable year of the Lord
- day of vengeance of our God

The Acceptable Year of the Lord is what brings the good stuff on the right sie of those pairs.  That leaves the Day of Vengeance of our God.  What's it doing in that passage?  Well, I think it's the reaping, what brings the left side of those pairs.  House falling.

crushed, ground first, then converted, then broken??

Not at all sure which one corresponds to what.


God bless,
Bob

[peacemaker]

Tony, take two aspirin, it helps thin the blood and will set you free from a headache.

But, you may need to increase the dosage – after the last few posts. :bottlebump:

peacemaker

I'm not the one with the headache. I said I'm sorry if I give you folks a headache.
The truth hurts (you) and then it sets you free.

You dont give me a headache Tony  :grin: I get a thousand truths a day they dont hurt cha  :grin:

O generations of Vipers who have a fraudulent or venomous intent, reputedly impersonating your own gods without authority –  being yourselves past any shame – who has warned you?  "You snakes ...serpents ..."

Tony, although paraphrased for emphasis, it appears that Jesus addressed the cunning, malignant, and wicked one – and their offspring who merely established their own righteousness.

"A dull mind with a devilish tongue are usually found in the same head; given the heart of that person."

These people already had what they thought was missing, but misapprehended the truth because of their own deceitful natures.

"...but my people, did not listen to my voice ...even, Israel, ...so then, I let them go on in the stubbornness of their own heart ...that they might walk in their own counsels ...age-abiding!"

The venom of that old serpent nature within the passions of men, causes them to commit sins which end in their destruction like the ruins of an ancient temple.

I do not see the denial of the literal, but...

"If our line of vision remained at ground level,  we would starve to death in a grocery store."

These comments are not meant to inflame, but a wicked heart and the carnal mind – Christ sets on fire, laying it to waste –  but saving the man, himself.

peacemaker

BTW Fire, thank you, for having a heart of prayer! :HeartThrob:

[Taffy]

 Hi Kim ,
 you Know I  feel Jesus is the standard  and  set the rule , meausing line
  When he  told us to pray for our  enemies , that was  taking the Law to another level [higher standard]
 that had not been in effect before , it was eye for eye  and tooth for tooth  '

thought of this  one .....And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

 what do you think that means ?  to loose on earth and heaven
 or bind on earth and heaven ?

Hi ya Rosie

The Keys of HEAVEN( Christ) The Power Given to Unbind that which is Bound via Faith loosed from the Bond

but equally so Seems that Which needs Binding is the the adversary within :icon_flower:

Earth is Man\body       Heaven\Heart mind and soul

[Taffy]

Mat 13:41-42  The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers (or angels), and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,  (42)  and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.

Isnt it interesing that the Lord who was crucified in Jerusalem (which is "spiritually called" Sodom Egypt Rev 11:8) and seems to connect the furnace to itself?

Duet 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Isaiah 31:9 And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.

Furnaces usually have smoke and fire

Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. **THESE ARE** A SMOKE in my nose, A FIRE that burneth all the day.

Its interesting a "people" can actually be defined of the Lord as an actually "smoke" and "a fire"?

Cut pieces and a smoking cauldron huh?  :grin:  Doesnt that sound like Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Yet its MEN who gather them and Angels He sends to reap yet sends the disciples?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Into which fire?  Men who are shown as a fire? Or that which sets a man on fire but he can remain completely unaware of it?

Isaiah 42:25 Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.

So we have furnace, and its reference to Jerusalem and to Egypt Physically called and spiritually called, People who are defined as a smoke and a fire (elements of a working furnace) which is often refered to as a furnace of "affliction" which ties into the tongue and the afflictions of the righteous and hypocrites to boot even why men can gather them.

Adding: so men cast them in the fire and men can pull them out of the fire?

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Good Post Kimmy
Ever Noticed there always seems to be a Double meaning ,

On One hand we see the Smoke of Incence, The (righteous) prayers  of the saint ascending as a Pure fragrance

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

1Ki 3:3 And Solomon loved the LORD, walking in the statutes of David his father: only he sacrificed and burnt incense in high places.

Then The smoke of what you speak of Above , The smoke which BY REASON darkens .

Kinda speaks of Blindness , A darkening of the Sun and Air, maybe this connects with Self righteousness which also Relates to being in darkness \blind.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 

A blinding\darkness

2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 

[Tony N]

Dear Bobf and fireinfolding,
First Fireinfolding:
If the eon ended when Christ died then are you prepared to state that all of Matthew 24 and 25 occurred just before He died? And are you prepared to state that all of Revelation chapters 1 to 19 inclusive occurred prior to His death? The reason I ask is that all those things must occur prior to the eon ending which Christ spoke of.
The separating of the wheat and tares occurrs when the eon is ending as well.

Bobf, concerning the last sentence above, it seems you cannot seem to wrap your mind around that statement.
You seem to think that Paul went through a change from a tare to a wheat and that (as far as I can tell from what you wrote) this is what Christ was really getting at when He spoke on the wheat and the tares?

Yet the judgment spoken of occurrs at the conclusion of the eon:

Mat 13:40 Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon."

Why, oh why, Bob is it so difficult for you to understand Matthew 13:40? I am trying to understand how you think on this matter and for the life of me I cannot understand you.

Furthermore Christ interpreted what the tares and the wheat are. You don't interpret the interpretation with a further interpretation. The interpretation is its own interpretation.

Furthermore, the angels are the ones who kick out of the kingdom all snares and those doing lawlessness. This is a judgment. It has nothing to do with anyone changing from a tare to a wheat.

Furthermore, if the tare is in the flesh then the tare was never separated from Paul because Paul stated that it was a present reality he was still dealing with after being saved.

And we, who still have this flesh to contend with in which sin is inherrent have noticed that if the flesh is the tare then it has not been separated from us as evidenced here:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."

Again, dear Bob, the separating is done by angels, not humans. The separating is done at the conclusion of the eon, not during the length of the eon. The separating is an all at the same time event, not a one at a time event.

Can you deal with these issues?

Peace, and apple pie,
Tony

[Nathan]

Dear Bobf and fireinfolding,
First Fireinfolding:
If the eon ended when Christ died then are you prepared to state that all of Matthew 24 and 25 occurred just before He died? And are you prepared to state that all of Revelation chapters 1 to 19 inclusive occurred prior to His death? The reason I ask is that all those things must occur prior to the eon ending which Christ spoke of.
The separating of the wheat and tares occurrs when the eon is ending as well.

Bobf, concerning the last sentence above, it seems you cannot seem to wrap your mind around that statement.
You seem to think that Paul went through a change from a tare to a wheat and that (as far as I can tell from what you wrote) this is what Christ was really getting at when He spoke on the wheat and the tares?

Yet the judgment spoken of occurrs at the conclusion of the eon:

Mat 13:40 Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon."

Why, oh why, Bob is it so difficult for you to understand Matthew 13:40? I am trying to understand how you think on this matter and for the life of me I cannot understand you.

Furthermore Christ interpreted what the tares and the wheat are. You don't interpret the interpretation with a further interpretation. The interpretation is its own interpretation.

Furthermore, the angels are the ones who kick out of the kingdom all snares and those doing lawlessness. This is a judgment. It has nothing to do with anyone changing from a tare to a wheat.

Furthermore, if the tare is in the flesh then the tare was never separated from Paul because Paul stated that it was a present reality he was still dealing with after being saved.

And we, who still have this flesh to contend with in which sin is inherrent have noticed that if the flesh is the tare then it has not been separated from us as evidenced here:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."

Again, dear Bob, the separating is done by angels, not humans. The separating is done at the conclusion of the eon, not during the length of the eon. The separating is an all at the same time event, not a one at a time event.

Can you deal with these issues?

Peace, and apple pie,
Tony

After 31 pages of countless explanations one would THINK that there would have been some progress made on this one issue.  But as we've explained before, there are two perspectives from which the observations are being made and until the two become one, there will be another 31 pages written with no better results than the last 31.  I have been trying to catch up on all that's been written since I last posted . .but people are posting faster than I can read and rather than set out on the current conversation . . .I thought I'd jump from page 15 . .which is all the further I've gotten so far . . .and through an insert here and work my way up from there.

Every person who's reading and posting on this forum is literally, at a different place in maturity in Christ.  And as such, every person is going to see differently.  Having been a teenager, I can remember the hard time I often gave my parents due to the fact that they were no where near as smart as I was.  But what exposed my immaturity with them was my attitude toward them.  I was very condescending and critical of their approach on pretty much every subject.  The older I got, the wiser they seemed to become . . .reality obviously was, they didn't "become" any wiser . . .it was my perception that was maturing and changing.

It's the exact same thing here.  There is always going to be someone who is more mature in the deeper things of God than I.  And there will always be people who are more immature in the things of God than I.  Just because I see things differently doesn't mean you are wrong and I am right.  It simply means we are of different ages in our walk.  Those who are willing to recieve things they don't understand will also be the ones who experience more growth than those who are unwilling to recieve anything beyond what they think they already know.

The wheat and tares topic really seems to illuminate the separation between the adults and teenagers in Christ.  The gifts of ministry . .if I'm not mistaken, is for the purpose of the maturity of the saints . .which indicates that God intends for all of us to experience growth.  That may sound pretty obvious, but the deeper question that continues to pull at us is, how much am I willing to let go of so that God can rebuild in me things that "He" ordained and not the imaginations of men.  For me, growth is not reaffirming what I already think I know.  Growth is receiving things that I've never heard and my mind has never comprehended.

What if tares is the ungodly nature in you . . .and wheat is the godliness in you?  Why is this so bad to consider?  Romans 1:20 states that God uses the natural to reveal spiritual truths . . . the whole purpose for natural explanations, is to reveal spiritual reality.  They're not meant to be embraced as the end of the road . .but they are to be applied as patterns of things unseen . . .the kingdom of heaven does not come by observation . .it is IN you . . .as are the wheat . .as are the tares.

[chuckt]

The wheat and tares topic really seems to illuminate the separation between the adults and teenagers in Christ.  The gifts of ministry . .if I'm not mistaken, is for the purpose of the maturity of the saints . .which indicates that God intends for all of us to experience growth.  That may sound pretty obvious, but the deeper question that continues to pull at us is, how much am I willing to let go of so that God can rebuild in me things that "He" ordained and not the imaginations of men.  For me, growth is not reaffirming what I already think I know.  Growth is receiving things that I've never heard and my mind has never comprehended.

good point, i guess without the ""bad"" we wouldnt know ""good"" without darkness we wouldnt know light, ETC.

God has a good reason to let the tarres grow with the wheat, i see:

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies (( tarres )) among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 


thats one way to look at it i guess, and the many layers of scripture stand true!

What if tares is the ungodly nature in you . . .and wheat is the godliness in you?  Why is this so bad to consider?  Romans 1:20 states that God uses the natural to reveal spiritual truths . . . the whole purpose for natural explanations, is to reveal spiritual reality.  They're not meant to be embraced as the end of the road . .but they are to be applied as patterns of things unseen . . .the kingdom of heaven does not come by observation . .it is IN you . . .as are the wheat . .as are the tares.

YUP, again can not it apply to us individually  as well a corperate? yes i do in fact see ""tarres"" being bundled up NOW. even in my own life.

God bless
chuckt

[Paul Hazelwood]

Nathan,

Your comments reminded me of something.   I have had what I believe to be spiritual awareness and it is very hard to try to explain it to someone else.  Try as we may, the only way to even begin is to try to come up with some analogy with physical things and they are simply inadequate.

I do agree that everyone is at a different point and that is how God intends for it to be.  I do not say this in a negative way, but 31 pages of this topic is about people desparate to either know greater things spiritually or desparate to try to help someone else understand what they see spiritually.  and to me, that is a good thing.

I have met two people recently that I know God put in my path to help, it excites me to no end, and my enthusiasm cannot be conveyed to these people without appearing like some wierdo, it is very difficult for me to put the brakes on and be patient in a developing relationship with them.  To me I just want to jump in with both feet and love them to death.   I am finding that few people can understand why and I am not sure I have the ability to explain it.

Indeed, it is not about me being better than them, it is desperatly hoping God shows them the same freedom.

Not sure if this will help the thread any or not.

[rosered]

Dear Bobf and fireinfolding,
First Fireinfolding:
If the eon ended when Christ died then are you prepared to state that all of Matthew 24 and 25 occurred just before He died? And are you prepared to state that all of Revelation chapters 1 to 19 inclusive occurred prior to His death? The reason I ask is that all those things must occur prior to the eon ending which Christ spoke of.
The separating of the wheat and tares occurrs when the eon is ending as well.

Bobf, concerning the last sentence above, it seems you cannot seem to wrap your mind around that statement.
You seem to think that Paul went through a change from a tare to a wheat and that (as far as I can tell from what you wrote) this is what Christ was really getting at when He spoke on the wheat and the tares?

Yet the judgment spoken of occurrs at the conclusion of the eon:

Mat 13:40 Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon."

Why, oh why, Bob is it so difficult for you to understand Matthew 13:40? I am trying to understand how you think on this matter and for the life of me I cannot understand you.

Furthermore Christ interpreted what the tares and the wheat are. You don't interpret the interpretation with a further interpretation. The interpretation is its own interpretation.

Furthermore, the angels are the ones who kick out of the kingdom all snares and those doing lawlessness. This is a judgment. It has nothing to do with anyone changing from a tare to a wheat.

Furthermore, if the tare is in the flesh then the tare was never separated from Paul because Paul stated that it was a present reality he was still dealing with after being saved.

And we, who still have this flesh to contend with in which sin is inherrent have noticed that if the flesh is the tare then it has not been separated from us as evidenced here:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."

Again, dear Bob, the separating is done by angels, not humans. The separating is done at the conclusion of the eon, not during the length of the eon. The separating is an all at the same time event, not a one at a time event.

Can you deal with these issues?

Peace, and apple pie,
Tony

Hi Tony  N
  I have read your  post  to Fire and bobf ,,
 and I am going to ask you bro  , have you considered Peter  , my prime example of a tare ,  Peter was by the way to be sifted like wheat , that means a good thrashing ,, wheat is trashed out  
 being that Jesus called him satan , because he was a stumblingblock to Jesus and mindful of the things of men and not God
 could a tare  be   the things of men  by definition ,  Jesus also called in John  4   them sons of the wicked one your father  the devil ...
 because of the works that they did    were not of faith  nor   of God , but men and seeking mens approval  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;


1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.


1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.


1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.


1Cr 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.


1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.


1Cr 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.


1Cr 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

1Cr 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;


1Cr 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ [is] God's.


 now PETER  though experience  gained knowlege of God and told us not to be surpised by the firey trials that come upon us , he suffered loss   but  gained  be saved by all that he suffered  , his  tares [ thoughts and actions   that offend , Jesus was  plain about  calling satan an offense  , right there in peter !! , the things and works that be of men]  were dissolved   in the Fire God is a consuming Fire ..