Natural and Spiritual

[Molly]

Strong's G3340 - metanoeō μετανοέω
Transliteration
metanoeō

Pronunciation
me-tä-no-e'-ō (Key)

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)

The word metanoia is "after-mind" or "change-mind."  The problem with the quote from F. F. Bruce is trying to put what Judas felt into it.  "... Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself..." (AV)  The word for "repented himself" here is metamelomai which is "regret" or "after-care."  Judas regretted what he'd done.  What is so often taught as "repentance" is "an emotional sorrow for sin and an act of the will to turn from it."  Meta-gnoia is actually a "-mind" word from gnosis referring to origin of consciousness.  That influenced deriving our words "generate" and "genital" from it.  "Repent," which usually translates metanoia in English, comes from the Sanscrit pu from which we get our word "pure," which is what it means.  Somehow "to purify" (from sin) is still included when we see "repent;" yet, it has nothing to directly do with metanoia.  The ministry of the Forerunner John was "Baptism unto Repentance."  The culmination was presenting unto Israel the New Mind in the person of the Messiah Jesus who was without sin.  This new origin of our consciousness we are receiving makes us "more than conquerors" because it is not even dealing with sin.  That was finished.  The lamb of God was slain before the casting down of the earth.  The perfect life of God the Spirit present with us and in us, adjusting us to His will and changing us into His image and likeness is bringing salvation without sin.

Paul says we are more than conquerors, that is, more than overcomers.  Then, this is the question:  Who is this Christ:

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

He appeared the first time without sin.  Then took away our sin on the cross.

So the second appearance without sin unto salvation--is that the sons of God?

[bobf]

well, what do you think?  That we are all required to go through some horrible initiation into the kingdom, through literal scourging and crucifying?  I sure hope not.

I don't know anyone who has been literally crucified or scourged, so no.  Look up suffer, suffering, suffered, etc. in the NT and you will see it is required to enter the kingdom of God.  Do I like that?  Not really.

[rosered]

 

  Thanks ReFormer  for breaking that down for me  about repent



  Wow Kim , when  was you doing this ?  :mshock:

  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

  Thanks ReFormer  for breaking that down for me  about repent



  Wow Kim , when  was you doing this ?  :mshock:

  :thumbsup:

Like two years ago ya nut :grin: I just copy pasted this from a portion of my studies LOL I didnt type it by hand while I was talking wit cha  :grin:

Hugs  :HeartThrob:

ya fooled me  :mblush: LOL   they are excellent  :cloud9:
point taken sis ..

[Molly]

Barley field

...the fields... are white already to harvest.

http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.asp?imageid=1533651

[Zeek]

well, what do you think?  That we are all required to go through some horrible initiation into the kingdom, through literal scourging and crucifying?  I sure hope not.

I don't know anyone who has been literally crucified or scourged, so no.  Look up suffer, suffering, suffered, etc. in the NT and you will see it is required to enter the kingdom of God.  Do I like that?  Not really.

Heres just a few I agree with you

2Titus 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus **shall suffer persecution**.

Was Paul not saying the same thing as the Lord?

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have **persecuted me**, they will also **persecute you**; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Is the Lord not telling the truth?

Mat 5:10 ~Blessed~ are they which **are persecuted** for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed (or happy) in the above (and below) verse spoken by Peter and the Lord

1Peter 3:14 But and **IF YE SUFFER** for righteousness' sake, ~happy~ are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

Mat 5:11-12 ~Blessed~ are ye, when men shall **revile you**, and **persecute you**, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. ~Rejoice~, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so **persecuted they** the prophets which were before you.

Jesus and James agreeing on the persecution of the prophets who are examples unto us

James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of **suffering affliction**, and of patience.

What "worketh" patience? Something beneficial.... "tribulation'

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also **TO SUFFER** for his sake;

Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he **MUST SUFFER** for my name's sake.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh **persecuted him** that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Thes 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have **persecuted us**; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:36-37 As it is written, For thy sake **we are killed** all the day long; we are accounted as **sheep for the slaughter**. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

1Cr 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: **being reviled**, we bless; **being persecuted**, we **suffer it**:

Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, **The reproaches** of them that reproached thee fell on me.

1Peter 4:14 If ye be **reproached** for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Isaiah 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the ***reproach** of men, neither be ye afraid of **their revilings**.

Luke 6:22 ~Blessed~ are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall **reproach** you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Again....

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. IF they have **persecuted me**, they will ALSO **persecute you**; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

How is one OFFENDED?

Mark 4:17 And have **NO ROOT** in themselves, and so endure but for a time: AFTERWARD, **WHEN AFFLICTION** OR **PERSECUTION** ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are OFFENDED.

1Thes 3:3 That no man should be moved by **THESE AFFLICTIONS**: for yourselves know that WE are **APPOINTED** thereunto.

2Titus 1:18 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of **THE AFFLICTIONS** of the gospel according to the power of God;

Phil 3:10 That I may **KNOW HIM**, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of **HIS SUFFERING**, being made conformable unto his death;

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, **in bringing many sons unto glory**, to make the captain of their salvation perfect **through sufferings**.

Heb 5:9 being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

2Thes 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your **persecutions** and **tribulations** that ye endure

Many are the afflictions of the righteous

1Thes 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, WE TOLD YOU before that we should **SUFFER PERSECUTION**; even as it came to pass, and **ye know**.

Acts 14:22 we must through **much tribulation** enter into the kingdom of God.

1Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, **AFTER THAT** YE HAVE SUFFERED **A WHILE**, **MAKE YOU PERFECT**, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Isaiah 51:22 Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, (((Behold)) I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; THOU SHALT NO MORE DRINK IT AGAIN

Isaiah 51:23 But I will put it INTO THE HAND **OF THEM that **AFFLICT THEE**; which have said to THY SOUL, Bow down, that we may go over: and **THOU** HAST LAID THY BODY AS THE GROUND, and as the street, **TO THEM** that went over.

2Thes 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation **TO THEM** that **TROUBLE YOU**;

Where does He chose one in?

Isaiah 48:10 (((Behold)) I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of **AFFLICTION**.

Its shown in our trials...

Heb 11:36 And others had trial of **cruel mockings** and **scourgings**, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment


1Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the **fiery trial** which is to try you, ~as though~ some strange thing happened unto you:

Partakers in Christ's sufferings, The "fellowship of His suffering".

1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of **Christ's sufferings**; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


1Peter 1:7 That **the trial** of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


How did Peter know?

Luke 22:31 Simon, Simon, ((behold)) Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt **SUFFER**: (( behold )) the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

1Peter 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, ~knowing that~ **THE SAME AFFLICTIONS** are accomplished IN your brethren that are in the world.

2Cr 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

2Cr 1:5 For as **the sufferings** of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

2Cr 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the **same sufferings** which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

2Cr 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of **the sufferings**, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

2Cr 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all **our tribulation**.

2Titus 2:3 Thou therefore **endure hardness**, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

Remember Job...

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which **endure**. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.


Psalm 34:19 MANY are **the afflictions** of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

2Titus 3:1 **Persecutions**, **afflictions**, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

2Titus 4:5 But watch thou in all things, **endure afflictions**, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Going where one wants to go?

John 21:19 When thou wast ~young~, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall ~gird thee~, and carry thee whither **thou wouldest not**.

Psalm 18:32 It is ~God that girdeth me~ with strength, and maketh my way perfect.

As Christ was made perfect, learning obedience through what He suffered so do we

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that ~is perfect~ shall be as his master.

Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1Titus 4:10 For therefore we both labour and **suffer reproach**, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, ~specially~ of those that believe.

Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet **suffer persecution**? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only **LEST** they should **suffer persecution** for the cross of Christ.

persecution, by whom?? 

those stuck in the old covenant system.  Those "walking dead".

but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

[Molly]

1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

---Psa 23


The anointing is for kings and priests.

But he is both king and priest.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

[Zeek]

AMEN Molly

[Zeek]

Psa 6:7  Mine eye is consumed because of grief; it waxeth old because of all mine enemies.

Psa 6:8  Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

Psa 6:9  The LORD hath heard my supplication; the LORD will receive my prayer.

Psa 6:10  Let all mine enemies be ashamed and sore vexed: let them return and be ashamed suddenly.

[Zeek]

Psa 7:10  My defense is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

Psa 7:11  God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Psa 7:12  If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.

Psa 7:13  He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

Psa 7:14  Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood.

Psa 7:15  He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

Psa 7:16  His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

Psa 7:17  I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.

[Zeek]

Psa 9:13  Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:

[Zeek]

Psa 10:1  Why standest thou afar off, O LORD? why hidest thou thyself in times of trouble?

Psa 10:2  The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

Psa 10:3  For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.

Psa 10:4  The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

Psa 10:5  His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.

Psa 10:6  He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.

Psa 10:7  His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.

Psa 10:8  He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor.

Psa 10:9  He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den: he lieth in wait to catch the poor: he doth catch the poor, when he draweth him into his net.

Psa 10:10  He croucheth, and humbleth himself, that the poor may fall by his strong ones.

Psa 10:11  He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it.

Psa 10:12  Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.

Psa 10:13  Wherefore doth the wicked contemn God? he hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require it.

Psa 10:14  Thou hast seen it; for thou beholdest mischief and spite, to requite it with thy hand: the poor committeth himself unto thee; thou art the helper of the fatherless.

Psa 10:15 Break thou the arm of the wicked and the evil man: seek out his wickedness till thou find none.

Psa 10:16  The LORD is King forever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.

Psa 10:17  LORD, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:

Psa 10:18  To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.

[Zeek]

last one for now


Psa 13:2  How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me?

Psa 13:3  Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psa 13:4  Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved.

Psa 13:5  But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.

Psa 13:6  I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.

[Zeek]

Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

[Zeek]

Hi Kim, I have no doubt of WHO the persecution comes from.  What I personally believe, is that the persecution and trials and tribulation was at the hands of those who were "Ishmaels", old covenant hardened law zealots.  I personally believe that it served a purpose, to usher in the NEW.  I lean more and more toward a fulfilled view (first century fulfillment)

Today, I believe we mistaken daily trials and hardship (which both ungoldy and godly suffer) and label it the same as "tribulations" to enter the kingdom. 

jmo,

Z

[Molly]

Hi Kim, I have no doubt of WHO the persecution comes from.  What I personally believe, is that the persecution and trials and tribulation was at the hands of those who were "Ishmaels", old covenant hardened law zealots.  I personally believe that it served a purpose, to usher in the NEW.  I lean more and more toward a fulfilled view (first century fulfillment)

Today, I believe we mistaken daily trials and hardship (which both ungoldy and godly suffer) and label it the same as "tribulations" to enter the kingdom. 

jmo,

Z

Yes, we have a sure foundation, with Jesus as the cornerstone.  We can stand on their shoulders.

14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

--Rev 21

[Molly]

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

I'll stay with what he says :grin:

ALL of this over HIS WORDS   :sigh:

I think it's more a matter of how one interprets those words.  That's why I was asking you what experiences you were equating them with. 

If people use such words to justify beating children, for instance, I think they are sorely mistaken.  The shepherd guides his sheep with the rod, he doesn't beat them.

Will we go through a type of tribulation in our lives?  sure.  Everyone has some 'cross' to bear. And, He has His ways of getting our attention.   But, it in no way needs to compare with what He went through.  Or what Paul went through.  It might, but it doesn't have to.  Nor do I believe if we are good, we will avoid it necessarily.  Or that it is brought on by God himself.  This is an evil place we are living in--but I will fear no evil, because he is with me...

But the popular culture is promoting a 3 year tribulation, for instance--and I think it is wrong to expect that because it will just give the bad guys license to do it and have all the Christians think that it is expected.  And, there is no indication that it is expected at all.  I would rather expect this from Him--

6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.


Not that it's here or there, but I had a vision once where I was told to wear his stripes, putting them on like a coat--he has born the iniquity for us all, he has already done all the heavy lifting..

[Molly]

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

I'll stay with what he says :grin:

ALL of this over HIS WORDS   :sigh:

I think it's more a matter of how one interprets those words.  That's why I was asking you what experiences you were equating them with. 

If people use such words to justify beating children, for instance, I think they are sorely mistaken.  The shepherd guides his sheep with the rod, he doesn't beat them.

Will we go through a type of tribulation in our lives?  sure.  Everyone has some 'cross' to bear. And, He has His ways of getting our attention.   But, it in no way needs to compare with what He went through.  Or what Paul went through.  It might, but it doesn't have to.  Nor do I believe if we are good, we will avoid it necessarily.  Or that it is brought on by God himself.  This is an evil place we are living in--but I will fear no evil, because he is with me...

But the popular culture is promoting a 3 year tribulation, for instance--and I think it is wrong to expect that because it will just give the bad guys license to do it and have all the Christians think that it is expected.  And, there is no indication that it is expected at all.  I would rather expect this from Him--

6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.


Not that it's here or there, but I had a vision once where I was told to wear his stripes, putting them on like a coat--he has born the iniquity for us all, he has already done all the heavy lifting..

So you refuted verses based on what my experience might be with them or what my interpretation of them "could possiibly be"?  :grin:

No I dont think its a STICK for the last time  :grin: Do you see God with a STICK beating people?  :grin:

Yes I realize by His stripes we are healed but I also realize that He still CHASTENS US one does not negate the other, how do you figure on that? This is what I cant understand both are equally true. Theres judgment

1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Has He stopped Judging us, or chastening us? Is He now somehow changed? 

I dont know what your going on about concerning 3 years I look at the ongoing discipline of the Father for our benefit not just for 3 years, I dont know what you mean by that (?)

I just posted verses so I cant figure out why all the dancing around them, its not like I said anything more then what was written, what Paul said and what Jesus confirmed. Simply put the Lord chastens who He LOVES and either He dont love His Sons To day as He did yesterday or He does.

It's a matter of how people interpret those words and use them to justify doing all sorts of bad things to each other.

And, it's a matter of the heart of the Father.

What is judgment to us?   We can see it with Peter, sifted by satan.

What horrible thing did Jesus do to him?  What 'rod'?  What 'chastening'?

Jesus told Peter what was going to happen, told him he was praying for him, and after it happened, just looked at him.

Peter judges himself within the context of his love for Christ.

I'm just saying...

He is so good to us.

[rosered]

who chastens like the Lord s Word?


Mic 7:14 Feed thy people with thy rod  the flock of thine heritage ...

Prov 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

Mic 6:9 hear ye the rod, and who hath appointed it.

Prov 15:21 The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise.

[Taffy]

Exactly G I with you but you can see it in scripture, what I cannot stand is pretending its not in there as if Gods chastening doesnt exist cause if were without it we are bastards and not sons  :grin: I didnt just pull it out of my rear, but from the OT but the NT which further defines the process and how people might feel through it, its not just some stick in someones hand for goodness sake :grin:  

Besides maybe someone going through it might be comforted, to somehow be able to reccognize it and by that reccognition not despise it (the Chastening of the Lord) maybe because they have been told God would never do such a thing I dont know?  :grin: To me it blessed me to know His involvement and also to know its because He loves us not because he hates us  or has left us in the dust. So what someone might think is a terrible thing for God to be doing I see as comforting thing to know He does this sorta thing because He loves us.

Amen

Yes Kim, Correction at First is never seems comforting,      ( some 10 yrs I was out there, but never felt alone )    but through the Process Eventually comes an  Understanding which is, and Like ya mentioned ,TO know HE  leads us through it IS comfort indeed.

And No sis ,Definately NOT a Stick , Punishment means to Correct that which is WRONG,we parents do it daily, out of love for off spring .       Spare the ROD and spoil the child.... first natural , then the spiritual , tis a Learning process which continues


Pro 22:15 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. 
Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 
Pro 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left [to himself] bringeth his mother to shame.
:icon_flower: :HeartThrob:

[Taffy]

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

I'll stay with what he says :grin:

be zealous therefore, and repent.

:icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

Strong's G3340 - metanoeō μετανοέω
Transliteration
metanoeō
Pronunciation

me-tä-no-e'-ō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

from G3326 and G3539

TDNT Reference
4:975,636
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)

 even Peter  had to be converted turned around , before he could feed the sheep  , and He  was sifted like wheat by satan to the destruction of his flesh   so His Spirit would be saved

 see how sheep wander and go astray ?

 converted  Strong's G1994 - epistrephō ἐπιστρέφω
Transliteration
epistrephō
Pronunciation

e-pē-stre'-fō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

from G1909 and G4762

TDNT Reference
7:722,1093
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) transitively

a) to turn to

1) to the worship of the true God

b) to cause to return, to bring back

1) to the love and obedience of God

2) to the love for the children

3) to love wisdom and righteousness

2) intransitively

a) to turn to one's self

b) to turn one's self about, turn back

c) to return, turn back, come back

 Ps  
wheat makes bread  [Bread of heaven] and  tares poison  mankind , but birds of the air eat them and  do not die  
 on the wheat and tares   wow this thread is all over the place , I cannot
 keep up , I gotta go , my daughter wants on puter now ...  :msealed:
 love yas ...
 

     

he he Rosey.I woke this morning and found I was 5 pages back on this thread....
Yes to Change ones MIND, to TURN around AMEN :icon_flower:

[Tony N]

spare the rod and spoil the child?

(Pro 10:13)  In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.

(Pro 13:24)  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

(Pro 14:3)  In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.

(Pro 22:8)  He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.

(Pro 22:15)  Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

(Pro 23:13)  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

(Pro 23:14)  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from the unseen.

(Pro 26:3)  A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

(Pro 29:15)  The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.


Under the law if a child were to get mouthy with their parents or stay out and carouse around the parents were to take the child to the priest and the child was to be stoned to death.

So it makes perfect sense that it would be better for the child to be corrected with a rod, a literal rod, than to be stoned to death.

So, since this thread is about Natural and Spiritual, figurative and literal, I take it that the rod here is really meant to be a literal rod.

[Taffy]

well, what do you think?  That we are all required to go through some horrible initiation into the kingdom, through literal scourging and crucifying?  I sure hope not.

I don't know anyone who has been literally crucified or scourged, so no.  Look up suffer, suffering, suffered, etc. in the NT and you will see it is required to enter the kingdom of God.  Do I like that?  Not really.

Heres just a few I agree with you

2Titus 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus **shall suffer persecution**.

Was Paul not saying the same thing as the Lord?

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have **persecuted me**, they will also **persecute you**; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Is the Lord not telling the truth?

Mat 5:10 ~Blessed~ are they which **are persecuted** for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed (or happy) in the above (and below) verse spoken by Peter and the Lord

1Peter 3:14 But and **IF YE SUFFER** for righteousness' sake, ~happy~ are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

Mat 5:11-12 ~Blessed~ are ye, when men shall **revile you**, and **persecute you**, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. ~Rejoice~, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so **persecuted they** the prophets which were before you.

Jesus and James agreeing on the persecution of the prophets who are examples unto us

James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of **suffering affliction**, and of patience.

What "worketh" patience? Something beneficial.... "tribulation'

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also **TO SUFFER** for his sake;

Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he **MUST SUFFER** for my name's sake.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh **persecuted him** that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Thes 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have **persecuted us**; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:36-37 As it is written, For thy sake **we are killed** all the day long; we are accounted as **sheep for the slaughter**. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

1Cr 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: **being reviled**, we bless; **being persecuted**, we **suffer it**:

Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, **The reproaches** of them that reproached thee fell on me.

1Peter 4:14 If ye be **reproached** for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Isaiah 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the ***reproach** of men, neither be ye afraid of **their revilings**.

Luke 6:22 ~Blessed~ are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall **reproach** you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Again....

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. IF they have **persecuted me**, they will ALSO **persecute you**; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

How is one OFFENDED?

Mark 4:17 And have **NO ROOT** in themselves, and so endure but for a time: AFTERWARD, **WHEN AFFLICTION** OR **PERSECUTION** ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are OFFENDED.

1Thes 3:3 That no man should be moved by **THESE AFFLICTIONS**: for yourselves know that WE are **APPOINTED** thereunto.

2Titus 1:18 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of **THE AFFLICTIONS** of the gospel according to the power of God;

Phil 3:10 That I may **KNOW HIM**, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of **HIS SUFFERING**, being made conformable unto his death;

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, **in bringing many sons unto glory**, to make the captain of their salvation perfect **through sufferings**.

Heb 5:9 being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

2Thes 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your **persecutions** and **tribulations** that ye endure

Many are the afflictions of the righteous

1Thes 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, WE TOLD YOU before that we should **SUFFER PERSECUTION**; even as it came to pass, and **ye know**.

Acts 14:22 we must through **much tribulation** enter into the kingdom of God.

1Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, **AFTER THAT** YE HAVE SUFFERED **A WHILE**, **MAKE YOU PERFECT**, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Isaiah 51:22 Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, (((Behold)) I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; THOU SHALT NO MORE DRINK IT AGAIN

Isaiah 51:23 But I will put it INTO THE HAND **OF THEM that **AFFLICT THEE**; which have said to THY SOUL, Bow down, that we may go over: and **THOU** HAST LAID THY BODY AS THE GROUND, and as the street, **TO THEM** that went over.

2Thes 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation **TO THEM** that **TROUBLE YOU**;

Where does He chose one in?

Isaiah 48:10 (((Behold)) I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of **AFFLICTION**.

Its shown in our trials...

Heb 11:36 And others had trial of **cruel mockings** and **scourgings**, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment


1Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the **fiery trial** which is to try you, ~as though~ some strange thing happened unto you:

Partakers in Christ's sufferings, The "fellowship of His suffering".

1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of **Christ's sufferings**; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


1Peter 1:7 That **the trial** of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


How did Peter know?

Luke 22:31 Simon, Simon, ((behold)) Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt **SUFFER**: (( behold )) the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

1Peter 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, ~knowing that~ **THE SAME AFFLICTIONS** are accomplished IN your brethren that are in the world.

2Cr 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

2Cr 1:5 For as **the sufferings** of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

2Cr 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the **same sufferings** which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

2Cr 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of **the sufferings**, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

2Cr 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all **our tribulation**.

2Titus 2:3 Thou therefore **endure hardness**, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

Remember Job...

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which **endure**. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.


Psalm 34:19 MANY are **the afflictions** of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

2Titus 3:1 **Persecutions**, **afflictions**, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

2Titus 4:5 But watch thou in all things, **endure afflictions**, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Going where one wants to go?

John 21:19 When thou wast ~young~, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall ~gird thee~, and carry thee whither **thou wouldest not**.

Psalm 18:32 It is ~God that girdeth me~ with strength, and maketh my way perfect.

As Christ was made perfect, learning obedience through what He suffered so do we

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that ~is perfect~ shall be as his master.

Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1Titus 4:10 For therefore we both labour and **suffer reproach**, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, ~specially~ of those that believe.

Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet **suffer persecution**? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only **LEST** they should **suffer persecution** for the cross of Christ.

:icon_flower:
Just a Few, :icon_flower: AMEN :icon_flower:

The carnal Minded will always persecute the Spiritual Man , and suffer we Must

1Peter 3:14 But and **IF YE SUFFER** for righteousness' sake, ~happy~ are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of **Christ's sufferings**; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

[Tony N]

Tony,

But see your interpretation of Christ's explanation was not completely literal either.

You intepreted "world" literally as this world, but you did not interpret "children" literally.  A follower of the serpent seed doctrine would be telling you to quit interpreting "children" figuratively.  "Believe the scriptures Tony! They are LITERALLY the offspring of Satan!!"

No, dear friend, Satan did not impregnate their mothers. They are not literally the offspring of Satan.
The word behind "world" is "Kosmos" and can be "system" or "adornment". It need not literally be the whole world or globe with oceans and north and south pole with Santa's village.

Ok, so:
- Tares means children of the adversary, but not literal children, those who do the works of Satan.
- Field means world which means world.
- Sowing means planting or placing.

But then your interpretation does not agree with certain facts:
1. Satan does not take people who are already wicked (tare seeds) and put then in this world to mature.
2. Jesus does not take people who are already good (wheat seeds) and put them in this world to mature.
3. Wicked people do not end up all being wicked people, destined to be burned at the end of the age.

For example, Paul was at one time doing the works of Satan.  He persecuted and sought to kill Christ's church.  So Paul was a tare planted in this world by Satan.  Therefore, according to your interpretation, Paul should have been allowed to mature as a tare and then burned at the end of the age.

Paul was chosen in Christ before the disruption of the world. The others were not. So though Paul was killing christians he did it (according to him) innocently.
1Ti 1:13 "I, who formerly was a calumniator and a persecutor and an outrager: but I was shown mercy, seeing that I do it being ignorant, in unbelief."

Before Paul even believed he was already set for life eonian:
Act 13:48 "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."

It doesn't say that if they believe they would be set for life eonian.

So Paul was a wheat, a son of the kingdom, even before doing anything good or bad that God's grace may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts but of Him Who is calling.

[Taffy]

Under the law if a child were to get mouthy with their parents or stay out and carouse around the parents were to take the child to the priest and the child was to be stoned to death.

So it makes perfect sense that it would be better for the child to be corrected with a rod, a literal rod, than to be stoned to death.

So, since this thread is about Natural and Spiritual, figurative and literal, I take it that the rod here is really meant to be a literal rod.

HI Tony.
Altho we No longer live in the shadow ,The Rod we were discussing was a Spiritual One,..

Do you really believe these Rods are literal?... if ya Beat a Child senseless ,it would produce Righteousness, Wisdom, Understanding, Tis speaking about the tongue, THE MOUTH AND THE LIPS...., all connected to whats In the HEART and Mind...

The correction of the Rod is far Better than DEATH, the reason the child got stoned was to show what would lead to DEATH if The Child after Law wasnt corrected By THE ROD..

Dont you see types, shadows, similitudes, similies etc.... :dontknow:


These are\were the Shadows\Types of the Things to Come ....



(Pro 10:13)  In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.

(Pro 13:24)  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

(Pro 14:3)  In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.

(Pro 22:8)  He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.

Foolishness IS tied, that which Bound NEEDS to be released bro....Tis all speaking after the spirtual man moving from a Child under Law to a SON of Faith..until you see this bro..

(Pro 22:15)  Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

(Pro 23:13)  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

(Pro 23:14)  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from the unseen.

(Pro 26:3)  A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

(Pro 29:15)  The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.


So yes, the Rod In the shadow was Literal, so was the stoning......

But beating My child sensless with a Literal stick ,Sure aint going to MAKE HIM Righteous EVEN it the Literal

:icon_flower: