Natural and Spiritual

[Molly]

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

I'll stay with what he says :grin:

He is so tenderhearted and kind to us.  He loves us so much--he would never hurt us.  If the son wishes to forgo his Father's guidance (the rod, used only for guidance, as a boundary marker), and go out and slop swill with the pigs, he won't stop him.  He knows the son will be brought back to remembrance of how wonderful the Father's house is and come back to Him.



He shall feed his flock like a shepherd--

And he shall gather the lambs with his arms--

And carry them in his bosom--

And gently lead those that are with young--

And gently lead

And gently lead those that are with young--

[Taffy]

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

I'll stay with what he says :grin:

be zealous therefore, and repent.

:icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

Heed the rod and the one who appointed it, which would be to listen to his correction not beatin to a pulp, that would be taking it literally  :grin:

:icon_flower: :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Ok so its he who spares the rod loves his son more?  :grin:

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

From the base of

G3145
μασσάομαι
massaomai
mas-sah'-om-ahee
From a primary word μάσσω massō (to handle or squeeze); to chew: - gnaw.

[rosered]

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

I'll stay with what he says :grin:

be zealous therefore, and repent.

:icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

Strong's G3340 - metanoeō μετανοέω
Transliteration
metanoeō
Pronunciation

me-tä-no-e'-ō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

from G3326 and G3539

TDNT Reference
4:975,636
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)

 even Peter  had to be converted turned around , before he could feed the sheep  , and He  was sifted like wheat by satan to the destruction of his flesh   so His Spirit would be saved

 see how sheep wander and go astray ?

 converted  Strong's G1994 - epistrephō ἐπιστρέφω
Transliteration
epistrephō
Pronunciation

e-pē-stre'-fō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

from G1909 and G4762

TDNT Reference
7:722,1093
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) transitively

a) to turn to

1) to the worship of the true God

b) to cause to return, to bring back

1) to the love and obedience of God

2) to the love for the children

3) to love wisdom and righteousness

2) intransitively

a) to turn to one's self

b) to turn one's self about, turn back

c) to return, turn back, come back

 Ps  
wheat makes bread  [Bread of heaven] and  tares poison  mankind , but birds of the air eat them and  do not die  
 on the wheat and tares   wow this thread is all over the place , I cannot
 keep up , I gotta go , my daughter wants on puter now ...  :msealed:
 love yas ...
 

     

[Molly]

G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then?  :grin:

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE  :grin:

"chastening"

G3809
παιδεία
paideia
pahee-di'-ah
From G3811; tutorage, that is, education or training; by implication disciplinary correction: - chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture.


Sheesh we are talking about someone who loves us so much he has already taken our stripes for us upon himself.



5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

--Isa 53

[Tony N]

It is too bad these formums can't be set up so no one  hijacks the thread :hijacked:

Maybe if I start a new Natural and Spiritual II thread and people try to just post back and forth with me rather than everything under the sun?

[Zeek]

 


Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.


Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

[rosered]

I'll just chuck the scriptures out the window now its becoming a word game  :grin:

Its CORRECTION, DISCIPLINE, CHASTENING, REPROOF, REBUKE its the SPIRITUAL ROD of THE FATHER who LOVES US and HE CHASTENS US becuase HE doesnt HATE US  :grin:

ITS GRIEVOUS for goodness sake (smacks head)  :doh:

I hear you !  
it hurts like the devil .............hee hee

[Zeek]

It is too bad these formums can't be set up so no one  hijacks the thread :hijacked:

Maybe if I start a new Natural and Spiritual II thread and people try to just post back and forth with me rather than everything under the sun?

hi jacked threads are all in one's perception.  

the Spirit moves like the wind.  

[Molly]

I'll just chuck the scriptures out the window now its becoming a word game  :grin:

Its CORRECTION, DISCIPLINE, CHASTENING, REPROOF, REBUKE its the SPIRITUAL ROD of THE FATHER who LOVES US and HE CHASTENS US becuase HE doesnt HATE US  :grin:

ITS GRIEVOUS for goodness sake (smacks head)  :doh:

well, yes it's grievous for us whenever we finally see the error of our ways...

But that's it--we have brought it on our own head, and we grieve ourselves...


21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:


--Luke 15

[Taffy]

G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then?  :grin:

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE  :grin:

Course Not sis :icon_flower:

Tribulation is Never easy ,neither  the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task  of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,

I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND  Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....

My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...

make sense?

[Zeek]

G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then?  :grin:

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE  :grin:

Course Not sis :icon_flower:

Tribulation is Never easy ,neither  the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task  of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,

I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND  Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....

My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...

make sense?

YES, YES, YES 

(sorry, i know post was to Kim, but yes for me)

[Molly]

G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then?  :grin:

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE  :grin:

Course Not sis :icon_flower:

Tribulation is Never easy ,neither  the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task  of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,

I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND  Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....

My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...

make sense?

I don't understand this.  Can you explain?

[Taffy]

It is too bad these formums can't be set up so no one  hijacks the thread :hijacked:

Maybe if I start a new Natural and Spiritual II thread and people try to just post back and forth with me rather than everything under the sun?

Tony..
I really dont think people MEAN to Diversify....at Times a Thread gets Like whispers....ya Know, and Moves. More often the case, specially when one like this flows in the manner it does....

Threads would be starting one a Minute..and no doubt would probably loose their Flow, Altho What you say Is techinically correct..I just Like to say Sorry

[Zeek]

It is too bad these formums can't be set up so no one  hijacks the thread :hijacked:

Maybe if I start a new Natural and Spiritual II thread and people try to just post back and forth with me rather than everything under the sun?

Tony..
I really dont think people MEAN to Diversify....at Times a Thread gets Like whispers....ya Know, and Moves. More often the case, specially when one like this flows in the manner it does....

Threads would be starting one a Minute..and no doubt would probably loose their Flow, Altho What you say Is techinically correct..I just Like to say Sorry

To me it's sad if this type of flow were stopped.  today as i participated and read, I felt the Spirit move me several times, teared up, rejoiced, and praised HIM. 

He is SO GOOD

[Taffy]

G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then?  :grin:

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE  :grin:

Course Not sis :icon_flower:

Tribulation is Never easy ,neither  the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task  of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,

I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND  Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....

My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...

make sense?

YES, YES, YES 

(sorry, i know post was to Kim, but yes for me)

Thanks Zeek, :icon_flower:

at Times although Im more outspoken then Maybe may..i do get a Little shy of Posting for probably fear Upsetting many...sorta a hard place and A rock

[Molly]

Exactly G I with you but you can see it in scripture, what I cannot stand is pretending its not in there as if Gods chastening doesnt exist cause if were without it we are bastards and not sons  :grin: I didnt just pull it out of my rear, but from the OT but the NT which further defines the process and how people might feel through it, its not just some stick in someones hand for goodness sake :grin:  

Besides maybe someone going through it might be comforted, to somehow be able to reccognize it and by that reccognition not despise it (the Chastening of the Lord) maybe because they have been told God would never do such a thing I dont know?  :grin: To me it blessed me to know His involvement and also to know its because He loves us not because he hates us  or has left us in the dust. So what someone might think is a terrible thing for God to be doing I see as comforting thing to know He does this sorta thing because He loves us.

I'm not really sure what we are talking about.  I've been through some terrible tribulations in my life, but I never laid them at the feet of God, although they all brought me closer to God--and If I could somehow have understood without them, they never would have happened.

But the shepherd's rod is for guidance only with regard to his sheep.

He only beats predators of the sheep with it.

[Taffy]

G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then?  :grin:

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE  :grin:

Course Not sis :icon_flower:

Tribulation is Never easy ,neither  the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task  of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,

I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND  Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....

My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...

make sense?

I don't understand this.  Can you explain?

Ill do My best too Molly.

How can we Understand what its Like to Be an Indian UNLESS we once walked at Least a DAY in their Moccasins...

Maybe at Times we Forget who the epistles were for .

The reason I posted what I did Is because Ive suffered Under a Degree of Bondage...more than a bit id like to add

How Can a Child Under LAW, LIKE MANY WERE, Babes In Christ who came from certain traditions ,become SONS unless Corrected from their previous Understanding....Tis how I read it, Relative to those of the time and anyone else who  Since has suffered in some similar degree.

Grace TEACHES US,......To CHANGE,....The battles are The Principalities ABOVE, the oracles,( heard of the Battle of AMGGEDDON Tis a Battle of the Mind , via change of Thought moving from a Child to A SOn , the Son will continually be corrected if he Falls away....Looses That Sound mind....

Ive experienced the Suffering OF CHANGE, the LOSS of Many Brothers and sisiters of FAITH , be it a Chuch Under law..Therefore I can Relate the Loss

does this help?

[Molly]

G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then?  :grin:

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE  :grin:

Course Not sis :icon_flower:

Tribulation is Never easy ,neither  the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task  of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,

I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND  Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....

My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...

make sense?

I don't understand this.  Can you explain?

Ill do My best too Molly.

How can we Understand what its Like to Be an Indian UNLESS we once walked at Least a DAY in their Moccasins...

Maybe at Times we Forget who the epistles were for .

The reason I posted what I did Is because Ive suffered Under a Degree of Bondage...more than a bit id like to add

How Can a Child Under LAW, LIKE MANY WERE, Babes In Christ who came from certain traditions ,become SONS unless Corrected from their previous Understanding....Tis how I read it, Relative to those of the time and anyone else who  Since has suffered in some similar degree.

Grace TEACHES US,......To CHANGE,....The battles are The Principalities ABOVE, the oracles,( heard of the Battle of AMGGEDDON Tis a Battle of the Mind , via change of Thought moving from a Child to A SOn , the Son will continually be corrected if he Falls away....Looses That Sound mind....

Ive experienced the Suffering OF CHANGE, the LOSS of Many Brothers and sisiters of FAITH , be it a Chuch Under law..Therefore I can Relate the Loss

does this help?

well, I didn't have the same experience--no church for me.  I tried to find a church that I could relate to as an adult, but never succeeded.  Therefore, I've been mostly alone in this walk from the human standpoint.

So I'm not really sure what you are talking about--maybe I can't know.

Ideally, the child grows up and his father says to him--here is your inheritance son, enjoy!  LOL

But there is that period between childhood and adulthood that we all go through--and it can take the form of rebellion, as we learn about our limits.

I don't think that's what you are talking about though..

[bobf]

Ok so its he who spares the rod loves his son more?  :grin:

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

From the base of

G3145
μασσάομαι
massaomai
mas-sah'-om-ahee
From a primary word μάσσω massō (to handle or squeeze); to chew: - gnaw.

Strongs: "Metaph.  Of God as a father chastening men as children by afflictions"

USAGE:

• Matthew 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;


• Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.


• Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.


• Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.


• Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.


• John 19:1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.

~~~~~~~~~

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church.

Mark 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized.

[Zeek]

 
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 

[bobf]

Exactly G I with you but you can see it in scripture, what I cannot stand is pretending its not in there as if Gods chastening doesnt exist cause if were without it we are bastards and not sons  :grin: I didnt just pull it out of my rear, but from the OT but the NT which further defines the process and how people might feel through it, its not just some stick in someones hand for goodness sake :grin:  

Besides maybe someone going through it might be comforted, to somehow be able to reccognize it and by that reccognition not despise it (the Chastening of the Lord) maybe because they have been told God would never do such a thing I dont know?  :grin: To me it blessed me to know His involvement and also to know its because He loves us not because he hates us  or has left us in the dust. So what someone might think is a terrible thing for God to be doing I see as comforting thing to know He does this sorta thing because He loves us.

Big Amen.

Lamentations 3

• 1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.


• 26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD


• 27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.


• 28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him.


• 29 He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.


• 30 He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach.


• 31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

[reFORMer]

 

Strong's G3340 - metanoeō μετανοέω
Transliteration
metanoeō

Pronunciation
me-tä-no-e'-ō (Key)

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)

The word metanoia is "after-mind" or "change-mind."  The problem with the quote from F. F. Bruce is trying to put what Judas felt into it.  "... Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself..." (AV)  The word for "repented himself" here is metamelomai which is "regret" or "after-care."  Judas regretted what he'd done.  What is so often taught as "repentance" is "an emotional sorrow for sin and an act of the will to turn from it."  Meta-gnoia is actually a "-mind" word from gnosis referring to origin of consciousness.  That influenced deriving our words "generate" and "genital" from it.  "Repent," which usually translates metanoia in English, comes from the Sanscrit pu from which we get our word "pure," which is what it means.  Somehow "to purify" (from sin) is still included when we see "repent;" yet, it has nothing to directly do with metanoia.  The ministry of the Forerunner John was "Baptism unto Repentance."  The culmination was presenting unto Israel the New Mind in the person of the Messiah Jesus who was without sin.  This new origin of our consciousness we are receiving makes us "more than conquerors" because it is not even dealing with sin.  That was finished.  The lamb of God was slain before the casting down of the earth.  The perfect life of God the Spirit present with us and in us, adjusting us to His will and changing us into His image and likeness is bringing salvation without sin.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just wanted you all to know, I'm not ignoring the conversation, but I had to leave and when I came back y'all mad posters had jumped ahead 6 pages on me, LOL. I don't think I'm going to try to catch that up in comments. Carry on..... :winkgrin:  Blessings...

[Molly]

Ok so its he who spares the rod loves his son more?  :grin:

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

From the base of

G3145
μασσάομαι
massaomai
mas-sah'-om-ahee
From a primary word μάσσω massō (to handle or squeeze); to chew: - gnaw.

Strongs: "Metaph.  Of God as a father chastening men as children by afflictions"

USAGE:

• Matthew 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;


• Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.


• Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.


• Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.


• Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.


• John 19:1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.

~~~~~~~~~

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church.

Mark 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized.

well, what do you think?  That we are all required to go through some horrible initiation into the kingdom, through literal scourging and crucifying?  I sure hope not.