Natural and Spiritual

[Tony N]

Tony,

How do you know Christ's explanation of the wheat & tares was literal & plain?

Hi Bob, excellent questions! This is very good! . . .

The disciples asked what the meaning of the parable was. Jesus didn't answer their question with another parable.
And Jesus said: Mat 13:11 Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given." Once He told them they knew because it was given them to know.

Mat 13:36 Then, leaving the throngs, He entered into the house. And His disciples come to Him, saying, "Elucidate to us the parable of the darnel of the field."
Mat 13:37 Now He, answering, said, "He Who is sowing the ideal seed is the Son of Mankind."

The Son of Mankind does not need to be made into a further figure of speech. Yet if you really think about it, practically ever word in every language is a figure of some sort. Every word presents to us a picture of some sort.

Mat 13:38 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one."

Sons of the kingdom are the sons belonging to the kingdom.
The sons of the wicked one are the sons belonging to Satan.


Mat 13:39 Now the enemy who sows them is the Adversary. Now the harvest is the conclusion of the eon. Now the reapers are messengers.

No further explanation is needed.


Mat 13:40 Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon."

They actually did that on the farms back then. In the conclusion of the eon it will be LIKE that.

Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

The sons of the wicked one make snares and do lawlessness. They are the darnel planted by the Adversary. They are literally humans the Adversary has grow up amongst the sons Christ has put on the earth.


Mat 13:42 and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the just be shining out as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

As the farmer culls out the darnel and casts it into the fire to be burned up, so the darnel will be cast out of the kingdom which is like a furnace of fire.

How can a kingdom literally have children?
How can Satan literally have children?  Serpent seed doctrine?

How were the Pharisees children of the father, the Adversary? By literally doing that which he does.

Will unbelievers literally be burned in a literal furnace of literal fire?  Is a lake a furnace?

No but they will go through fiery trials. Obviously the disciples knew exactly what He meant by furnace because Israel went through the furnace while held in Egypt for 400 some years in captivity.

How would removing unbelievers from the midst of the faithful uproot the faithful?

Jesus didn't want the removal of the darnel to take place UNTIL both the darnel and the wheat was ready. That's the point. The point is not the how of removing but WHEN is the proper time to remove both. It is when both are ripe for harvest. And that time is at the end of the eon and not afterword.

If Jesus was speaking plainly then why did He say "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear"?

Jesus told them that it is given to them to know the secrets of the kingdom. Obviously they heard and knew after He told them the meaning of the parable.

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

If you were a contemporary of Paul and reading the words for the first time, what would keep you from criticizing Paul for allegorizing a literal historical account?

I'm not against allegorizing a literal account. I'm against someone taking what Jesus said such and such is and turning it back into something He never said it was.

Besides, Paul explained exactly what the allegory was literally. He didn't muddy the waters by some esoteric means like what is done on these boards.


[/quote]

[Zeek]

 


Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:


Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.


Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.


Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,


Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,


Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.


Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.


Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.


Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.


Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.


Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.


Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.


Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.


Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!


Mat 23:17 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?


Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.


Mat 23:19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?


Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.


Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.


Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.


Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Mat 23:24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.


Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.


Mat 23:26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.


Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.


Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.


Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,


Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.


Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.


Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.


Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:


Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!


Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat
:


old covenant to new.

Power of sin is the Law


Who was it that the law was given to??

[Zeek]

 


Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;


Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:


Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.


Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:


Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:


Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.


Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;


Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.


Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.


Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,


Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Act 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?


Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.


Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.


Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.


Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.


Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;


Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.


Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,


Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

[Zeek]

 


Act 7:1 Then said the high priest, Are these things so?


Act 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,


Act 7:3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.


Act 7:4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.


Act 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not [so much as] to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when [as yet] he had no child.


Act 7:6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat [them] evil four hundred years.


Act 7:7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.


Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so [Abraham] begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac [begat] Jacob; and Jacob [begat] the twelve patriarchs.


Act 7:9 And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,


Act 7:10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.


Act 7:11 Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.


Act 7:12 But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first.


Act 7:13 And at the second [time] Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh.


Act 7:14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to [him], and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.


Act 7:15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,


Act 7:16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor [the father] of Sychem.


Act 7:17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,


Act 7:18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph.


Act 7:19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live.


Act 7:20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months:


Act 7:21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son.


Act 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.


Act 7:23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.


Act 7:24 And seeing one [of them] suffer wrong, he defended [him], and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:


Act 7:25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.


Act 7:26 And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another?


Act 7:27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?


Act 7:28 Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday?


Act 7:29 Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.


Act 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.


Act 7:31 When Moses saw [it], he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold [it], the voice of the Lord came unto him,


Act 7:32 [Saying], I [am] the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.


Act 7:33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.


Act 7:34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.


Act 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send [to be] a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.


Act 7:36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.


Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.


Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Act 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust [him] from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,


Act 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for [as for] this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.


Act 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.


Act 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices [by the space of] forty years in the wilderness?


Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.


Act 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.


Act 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;


Act 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.


Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.


Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Act 7:49 Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?


Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.


Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,


Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,


Act 7:58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.


Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

[Zeek]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.




Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:



1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

[Zeek]

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

[martincisneros]

Tony,

One of the things to pay attention to in St. Paul's writings is that he viewed himself as the Apocalypse.  As any good preacher would, he called himself the Son of God manifested in the flesh in Galatians 1, the bringer of eternal life in Titus 1, and his language in the last 4 chapters of 2Corinthians about coming and fighting against the rebellious with the Sword of his mouth forces me to conclude that his talk in Thessalonians of the Son of God coming and executing vengeance on the disobedient was his own (i.e. St. Paul's) ministry when you bare in mind 2Corinthians 10:3-6 in particular, though as I said 2Corinthians 10 and 2Corinthians 13 in their entirety "go there."

[martincisneros]

I believe that I could successfully argue that John "went there" too in Revelation, in viewing his own life and ministry as the Apocalypse.  These Apostles would have been doing this based off of Jesus's doctrine of continuing in His Word in the way that He continued in the Word of the Father (i.e. John 8).  The "I tried to worship this angel twice and he wouldn't let me" was more calculated than scholars have imagined.  He was targeting the gnostics and their big ol' angelology that placed these hundreds of angels between us and God.  And John's language in Revelation 19 is that he's coming to those Churches since Satan is no longer hindering him as he had through the many trials, being boiled in oil, etc., and his imprisonment on the isle of Patmos.  These people were addressing a Greek mindset that needed the melodrama.  Plus, they were training these Christian believers to expect more from the Christ within them.  The millenium for every believer is when they've grown up and their inner image of themselves is the exact same as their inner image of Jesus because they are new creations in Him, "old things have passed away, behold all things are become new" and in the context of this new creation "all things are of God."

[Cardinal]

  The millenium for every believer is when they've grown up and their inner image of themselves is the exact same as their inner image of Jesus because they are new creations in Him, "old things have passed away, behold all things are become new" and in the context of this new creation "all things are of God."

:cloud9: AMEN AND AMEN  :thumbsup:

[peacemaker]

How would removing unbelievers from the midst of the faithful uproot the faithful?

It wouldn't, unless this "removal of these tares come from within; the same soil." And not another field!

Amazing how many point a finger away from themselves, yet, there are three pointing directly back at them.

But let us not take any responsibility because the thumb faces upward: "It's the woman, you gave me."

peacemaker

[Cardinal]

Amazing how many point a finger away from themselves, yet, there are three pointing directly back at them.

But let us not take any responsibility because the thumb faces upward: "It's the woman, you gave me." peacemaker

:cloud9: EXACTLY.....that's what looking outward always does. Ah, but looking within and finding the truth about yourself and surrendering that kingdom over to the greater kingdom within, that's where revelation begins. Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, whose house we are. Until we rule our "kingdom" with a rod of iron, it will not be given to rule anything outside of it.

And the outer court had no covering so those who looked heavenward, saw a literal sun, moon, and stars and not the view of the priests who passed within the first veil and saw the light of the candlestick. Blessings...

[Tony N]

Tony writes

Jesus didn't want the removal of the darnel to take place UNTIL both the darnel and the wheat was ready. That's the point. The point is not the how of removing but WHEN is the proper time to remove both. It is when both are ripe for harvest. And that time is at the end of the eon and not afterword.

Mat 13:39 the harvest IS **the end of** the world; and THE REAPERS ARE THE ANGELS.

But then he says this...

John 4:25 SAY NOT ye, There are YET four months, and THEN cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

I mean he did say "the REAPERS are the Angels" right? But then He also said "I send YOU TO REAP"

John 4:38 I sent **YOU** TO REAP that whereon ye bestowed NO LABOUR: ***other men laboured***, and ye are entered **into** their labours.

Which appears to connect to this same thought

Neh 4:21 So we laboured **in the work** and half of them ***held the spears*** from ***THE RISING OF*** the morning **TILL** THE STARS APPEARED.

The ANGELS, or the STARS APPEARING in THE WORK (or labour) they ENTER INTO that which THEY HAVE BESTOWED NO LABOUR = OTHER MEN laboured

2Cr 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in ***ANOTHER man's line of things*** **MADE READY** TO **OUR HAND**

Which is sorta kool because Paul said "Ye received me as an ANGEL, as Christ himself" and in Revelation it speaks of an Angel having the everlasting gospel and how Paul was not taught the gospel he preached but received it of a revelation of Jesus Christ, and also how he said, if any man preaches another gospel then the one we preached let him be accursed.

But in regards to the Angels, its kool it shows elsewhere one holding a SICKLE (which are pruning hooks) TO REAP but not with spears (the others held). The spears were held TILL the Stars (I see as the angels) who appeared. The beating of" ones swords into pruning hooks is shown too.

Though I think its kinda neat how they actually laboured till the MORNING did RISE and then (((the stars appeared))) cause (I personally) see stars much better at night  :grin:

Dear Fireinfolding,
The disciples of John 4 are not the angels/messengers of the parable of the tares and the wheat.

Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

The end of the world or eon did not happen in John 4:

Mat 13:49  So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, Mat 13:50  And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And Taffy didn't think they understood these things yet the Lord asked them if they did and they said Yes:
Mat 13:51  Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

I believe these same messengers/angels come in flaming fire:
2Th 1:7-8  and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers,  (8)  in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ"

In the Bible angelos can be heavenly messengers or earthly messengers. You can't just say that if angel is used in one passage about harvest and the disciples are in another audience with Christ on a different topic as to harvest that therefore the disciples are the angels spoken of.

The important point of the parable and of this thread is that if it says the reapers are angels then we are not to turn that into something else like another figure. If He says that the wheat is the sons of the kingdom then that is what the wheat is . . . not our flesh.
If he says the sower is the Son of Mankind then that is who the sower is, not some other figure.

[Tony N]

How does one cast out the bondwomans son literally though?  :grin:

When Abraham's wife came to him and said
Gen 21:10 And saying is she to Abraham, "Drive out this maidservant an her son, for not shall he enjoy the tenancy--the son of this maidservant--with my son, with Isaac!"

And so Abraham cast out the maid with her son . . . literally.

[Molly]

I have the same problem as Tony with that passage on wheat and tares.  I keep trying to see it the way others describe, but I keep running into problems with seeing it that way.  If the tares are our flesh, when did the evil one sow [give us] flesh? If the wheat is our spirit, why was our spirit sown into flesh of tares?  Sorry,it just doesn't make sense to me.

[Molly]

How does one cast out the bondwomans son literally though?  :grin:

When Abraham's wife came to him and said
Gen 21:10 And saying is she to Abraham, "Drive out this maidservant an her son, for not shall he enjoy the tenancy--the son of this maidservant--with my son, with Isaac!"

And so Abraham cast out the maid with her son . . . literally.

well, he did, but then things continued on and the law came and men went into bondage.

But, Paul speaks as though it is an order for us to do it now--

Galatians 4:23
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Galatians 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.


He is saying there, move from flesh to Spirit.  He's talking in metaphors.

[Tony N]

Tony,

One of the things to pay attention to in St. Paul's writings is that he viewed himself as the Apocalypse.  As any good preacher would, he called himself the Son of God manifested in the flesh in Galatians 1, the bringer of eternal life in Titus 1, and his language in the last 4 chapters of 2Corinthians about coming and fighting against the rebellious with the Sword of his mouth forces me to conclude that his talk in Thessalonians of the Son of God coming and executing vengeance on the disobedient was his own (i.e. St. Paul's) ministry when you bare in mind 2Corinthians 10:3-6 in particular, though as I said 2Corinthians 10 and 2Corinthians 13 in their entirety "go there."

Dear brother Martin, could you give references for the sword usage by Paul?

I can only find it in these verses:

(Rom 8:35)  What shall be separating us from the love of God in Christ Jesus? Affliction, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

(Rom 13:4)  For it is God's servant for your good. Now if you should be doing evil, fear, for not feignedly is it wearing the sword. For it is God's servant, an avenger for indignation to him who is committing evil."

(Eph 6:17)  And receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is a declaration of God."

I can't see where Paul called himself the Son of God manifested in the flesh.
Unless you are using this verse:
Gal 1:16 "to unveil His Son in me that I may be evangelizing Him among the nations, I did not immediately submit it to flesh and blood"
which in that case I cannot see where Paul called himself the Son of God.


I can't find in your reference to Titus 1 that Paul is the bringer of eternal life. Can you show me?

In your 2 Corinthians passages I can see where Paul would avenge

Paul also said in 2 Cor.13:10:

I should not be using severity, according to the authority which the Lord gives me for building up and not for pulling down.

The apostles were given the authority just as Peter did with Ananias and Sapphira yet it was not Peter but the holy spirit.

I also think that the Corinthian passages you speak of were concerning believers. The Thessalonian passage about the Lord coming back again with His fiery messengers in 2 Thess.1:7 is not Paul but the Lord and the messengers and is concerned with unbelievers.

Maybe I misunderstand you.

The Corinthians testing Christ in Paul and Paul being the Son of God are two entirely different things in 2 Cor.13:3.

Christ also said that he who has seen me has seen the Father yet Christ was not the Father for the Father sent him into the world and the Father remained in heaven as Christ taught them to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven . . . ."

So just as they saw the Father through Jesus' actions and love so also was Christ' power evident in Paul.

[Tony N]

Tony writes

Jesus didn't want the removal of the darnel to take place UNTIL both the darnel and the wheat was ready. That's the point. The point is not the how of removing but WHEN is the proper time to remove both. It is when both are ripe for harvest. And that time is at the end of the eon and not afterword.

Mat 13:39 the harvest IS **the end of** the world; and THE REAPERS ARE THE ANGELS.

But then he says this...

John 4:25 SAY NOT ye, There are YET four months, and THEN cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

I mean he did say "the REAPERS are the Angels" right? But then He also said "I send YOU TO REAP"

John 4:38 I sent **YOU** TO REAP that whereon ye bestowed NO LABOUR: ***other men laboured***, and ye are entered **into** their labours.

Which appears to connect to this same thought

Neh 4:21 So we laboured **in the work** and half of them ***held the spears*** from ***THE RISING OF*** the morning **TILL** THE STARS APPEARED.

The ANGELS, or the STARS APPEARING in THE WORK (or labour) they ENTER INTO that which THEY HAVE BESTOWED NO LABOUR = OTHER MEN laboured

2Cr 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in ***ANOTHER man's line of things*** **MADE READY** TO **OUR HAND**

Which is sorta kool because Paul said "Ye received me as an ANGEL, as Christ himself" and in Revelation it speaks of an Angel having the everlasting gospel and how Paul was not taught the gospel he preached but received it of a revelation of Jesus Christ, and also how he said, if any man preaches another gospel then the one we preached let him be accursed.

But in regards to the Angels, its kool it shows elsewhere one holding a SICKLE (which are pruning hooks) TO REAP but not with spears (the others held). The spears were held TILL the Stars (I see as the angels) who appeared. The beating of" ones swords into pruning hooks is shown too.

Though I think its kinda neat how they actually laboured till the MORNING did RISE and then (((the stars appeared))) cause (I personally) see stars much better at night  :grin:

Dear Fireinfolding,
The disciples of John 4 are not the angels/messengers of the parable of the tares and the wheat.

Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

The end of the world or eon did not happen in John 4:

So Christ did not appear once IN the end of the world?

So are you saying there is YET four months (or whatever amount of time there is) UNTIL the harvest?  :grin:

Nothing applies huh?  :grin: Just your word bout it?  :grin:

No sweetheart, Jesus did not appear at the end of the world.
Here is the verse:

Heb 9:26 since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest."

Please note that "eons" is plural. When the eons end then sin will finally be repudiated due to His sacrifice. And it was for that reason He was manifest.

I think that the harvest Jesus spoke of in John 4 did come but the harvest of Matthew comes at the end of the eon, the end of this eon in which we life.

No sweetheart, it is not my word about it but THE Word has the final say.

[Molly]

John 4

Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then comest the harvest?  behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


He's telling his disciples the fields are ready to harvest now.  This is the white harvest.  White speaks of purity, of the priesthood, and also of barley.  The barley fields turn white at harvest time.  Barley is the firstfruits of Pentecost.  

So, how do we read this?  He is telling them to go forth and give the gospel to everyone, but only harvest the barley because that is what is ready for harvest?

[bobf]

Tony,

But see your interpretation of Christ's explanation was not completely literal either.

You intepreted "world" literally as this world, but you did not interpret "children" literally.  A follower of the serpent seed doctrine would be telling you to quit interpreting "children" figuratively.  "Believe the scriptures Tony! They are LITERALLY the offspring of Satan!!"

Ok, so:
- Tares means children of the adversary, but not literal children, those who do the works of Satan.
- Field means world which means world.
- Sowing means planting or placing.

But then your interpretation does not agree with certain facts:
1. Satan does not take people who are already wicked (tare seeds) and put then in this world to mature.
2. Jesus does not take people who are already good (wheat seeds) and put them in this world to mature.
3. Wicked people do not end up all being wicked people, destined to be burned at the end of the age.

For example, Paul was at one time doing the works of Satan.  He persecuted and sought to kill Christ's church.  So Paul was a tare planted in this world by Satan.  Therefore, according to your interpretation, Paul should have been allowed to mature as a tare and then burned at the end of the age.

[Molly]

Or you could say that Paul is an example of why you can't harvest the wheat and the tares until they mature, otherwise you might pull out a future Paul--because you can't tell them apart until they mature.

[rosered]

 

 YES !  i have considered that Molly! and Kim you know I have considered the leprocy the curse   that Moses witnessed   was the 2nd sign from God
 whos heads are ripe for harvest?

[Molly]

John 4

Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then comest the harvest?  behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


He's telling his disciples the fields are ready to harvest now.  This is the white harvest.  White speaks of purity, of the priesthood, and also of barley.  The barley fields turn white at harvest time.  Barley is the firstfruits of Pentecost.  

So, how do we read this?  He is telling them to go forth and give the gospel to everyone, but only harvest the barley because that is what is ready for harvest?

Ever run white and leprocy?  :grin:

No but leprosy is not a plant which is harvested, either.

[Molly]

John 4

Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then comest the harvest?  behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


He's telling his disciples the fields are ready to harvest now.  This is the white harvest.  White speaks of purity, of the priesthood, and also of barley.  The barley fields turn white at harvest time.  Barley is the firstfruits of Pentecost.  

So, how do we read this?  He is telling them to go forth and give the gospel to everyone, but only harvest the barley because that is what is ready for harvest?

Ever run white and leprocy?  :grin:

No but leprosy is not a plant which is harvested, either.

Every plant my heavenly father hath not planted?

Why don't you just tell me what you're thinking.  He wants them to harvest lepers?  Lepers is a metaphor for something?  Lepers are the white harvest?

But, Jesus is preparing for passover.  Pentecost will follow.  But before that, the barley harvest, the firstfruits waved in sheafs before God.  Jesus is the first of the firstfruits, but others will follow.  There are different ages and different harvests.   Are we in the age of the firstfruits?

[rosered]

And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:


Exd 4:5 That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.


Exd 4:6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand [was] leprous as snow.


Exd 4:7 And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his [other] flesh.


Exd 4:8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. 
  the VOICE  OF  the Latter Sign is Jesus Christ
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Exd 4:9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour [it] upon the dry [land]: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry [land].

here we see  that in Revelation above  verse

 the Laws  plural of the old and new are always in effect , to me  the only conclusion can be God does and invividual   work in  people
 one by one  

  I  know the law and prophts spoke   by the Spirit of Christ they were servants
  the SON OF GOD  speaks now making all the difference .........

[rosered]

John 4

Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then comest the harvest?  behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


He's telling his disciples the fields are ready to harvest now.  This is the white harvest.  White speaks of purity, of the priesthood, and also of barley.  The barley fields turn white at harvest time.  Barley is the firstfruits of Pentecost.  

So, how do we read this?  He is telling them to go forth and give the gospel to everyone, but only harvest the barley because that is what is ready for harvest?

Ever run white and leprocy?  :grin:

No but leprosy is not a plant which is harvested, either.

Every plant my heavenly father hath not planted?

Why don't you just tell me what you're thinking.  He wants them to harvest lepers?  Lepers is a metaphor for something?  Lepers are the white harvest?

But, Jesus is preparing for passover.  Pentecost will follow.  But before that, the barley harvest, the firstfruits waved in sheafs before God.  Jesus is the first of the firstfruits, but others will follow.  There are different ages and different harvests.   Are we in the age of the firstfruits?

that is the whole point Molly Jesus come to the lost sheep of Israel  his  appearance ,   ah but the CROSS OF CHRIST IS THE TRUE SIGN OF THE NEW COVENANT     Jesus come  but  come to heal the sick lame  , maimed etc blind ..