Natural and Spiritual

[Molly]

Your still here? How can you dissect these things like you do?  :grin:

Well it says we have the spirit of a man (who is born of flesh) and the little girl that died it speaks of "her spirit" returning to her... I lost my bible page but doesnt it talk also about a man following his own spirit?

Born of God (or from above) is not by the will of man, or born of flesh and blood... the spirit of man seems more comparable with the spirit of the world not the Spirit of God. Christ said Ye are from beneath I am from above, ye of the world I am not of the world, seems to collaborate you think?

My computer is slow tonight.  I think he wants me to sleep. :laughing7:

Yes, so born from above makes us citizens of another world, or another place.  That's where our birth is recorded.

But, you know, when Jesus talks about sweeping clean the house and driving out the demon (spirit)--the house is then --empty.   What about that?  Why empty?  The spirit of man, if there is one, must be tied to flesh.

It's interesting how so many eastern religions focus on breathing, and breathing exercises, as if God is somehow in the breath.

I need to sleep...

[reFORMer]

On the end of my right upper appendage I have 5 digits which are distinguished as 4 fingers and 1 thumb.  If my motive thought was in my fingers it would seem the thumb is in opposition to them.  Because command center is in my head I can pick up something that to the individuals on the end functions as relative adversity. Lo!  I have another on my other side, mirror like, only weaker.  They both have lower relatives of lesser articulation, 10 toes on 2 feet... 2 above and 2 below... or is it 10 celestial and 10 terrestial...

It's been mentioned there are spirits as angels, human spirits, (there are animal spirits too,) demonic spirits and there is the Spirit of God -- Who, when he filled the 120 on the day of Pentecost, brought out the fact through Peter that this indwelling Lord was, "...for to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Ac 2:39) -- so, all these different spirits, yet God says there is, "...one body and one Spirit..." (Ep 4:4)  Just as there are several fingers on each of two hands, there is one person united in pupose through its head, so the many are one Spirit.  It depends on your perspective.

I had a friend that I argued with about this over and over until I was sick of it.  For 9 months, anytime I came into the house he'd loudly say to me, "One Spirit!"  What a trial!  Until the day the revelation hit!  I finally got it.

And there is, "One body."  The entire physical universe, its outer manifestation is the realm of embodiment.  The inner travail of all creation is for the glory to be revealed through us to cover the realm of nature with the weight of glory.  We are to, "Not judge according to appearances, but to judge righteous judgement."  It is the higher more enduring substance of Spirit that drives the purpose of it all.  It is by Spirit that all things change or remain the same.

[Molly]

1 I THEREFORE, the prisoner for the Lord, appeal to and beg you to walk (lead a life) worthy of the [divine] calling to which you have been called [with behavior that is a credit to the summons to God's service,

    2Living as becomes you] with complete lowliness of mind (humility) and meekness (unselfishness, gentleness, mildness), with patience, bearing with one another and making allowances because you love one another.

    3Be eager and strive earnestly to guard and keep the harmony and oneness of [and produced by] the Spirit in the binding power of peace.

    4[There is] one body and one Spirit--just as there is also one hope [that belongs] to the calling you received--

    5[There is] one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    6One God and Father of [us] all, Who is above all [Sovereign over all], pervading all and [living] in [us] all.

    7Yet grace (God's unmerited favor) was given to each of us individually [not indiscriminately, but in different ways] in proportion to the measure of Christ's [rich and bounteous] gift.

    8Therefore it is said, When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive [He led a train of vanquished foes] and He bestowed gifts on men.

    9[But He ascended?] Now what can this, He ascended, mean but that He had previously descended from [the heights of] heaven into [the depths], the lower parts of the earth?

    10He Who descended is the [very] same as He Who also has ascended high above all the heavens, that He [His presence] might fill all things (the whole universe, from the lowest to the highest).

    11And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.

    12His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),

    13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.


--Eph 4

[Molly]

51When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child's father and mother. 52Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. "Stop wailing," Jesus said. "She is not dead but asleep."

53They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54But he took her by the hand and said, "My child, get up!" 55Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat. 56Her parents were astonished, but he ordered them not to tell anyone what had happened.

--Luke 8



Jesus says the same thing of the girl as he says of Lazarus--she's not dead but asleep.

Does this give us some clue to the spirit of man?   When he calls out to her, her spirit returns and she stands up.  She is alive again.  Thus, if there is such a thing as a spirit of man, its basic function is to keep man alive and breathing--it is a function of vitality, of life, of breathing in and out.

When Adam receives the breath of God, he becomes a living soul.  But are all souls 'living'?  Jesus says, Let the dead bury their dead. [Mat 8:22]   So clearly someone can be a walking and talking soul and still be dead.  Yet, someone can be literally dead and only be sleeping.

Although the first Adam is a quickened soul (living soul), there is nothing spoken about his spirit, except that he is not deceived by satan.  This is a function of his quickening.  He is not the living dead, so he has the faculties to see through satan's lies.  We see the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.  This is the spirit of Christ which can bring life (quickening) to others, even those that are literally dead.  But is he quickening their spirits or their souls?   God himself, breathing into Adam, produces not a quickened spirit but a quickened (living) soul.  Adam stands mute before satan, having not the spiritual tools (the Word of God) to resist him.

Are we able to worship God in spirit and truth without being quickened first?  Does the quickened soul produce a quickened spirit?  I could only find one scripture that implies this:

"There is a spirit in man; and the inspiration [breath] of the Almighty giveth them understanding" (Job 32:8).

But Paul says,

The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).

So again, it looks like the natural man [Eve] without the breath of God [Adam] has no understanding or ability to understand the things of the Spirit, --basically no spirit function beyond the vitality of breathing in and out.  And, Adam is not a quickened spirit but a quickened soul.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine (Matthew 7:6).

This seems harsh, but he is talking here about the soulish man with no spiritual capacity.  They will turn and rend you like an angry pack of dogs if you confront them with spiritual things of God.  This is the basest element of soul without Spirit, without God.  Having been rent by such people who are educated, intelligent , and otherwise successful, I could bear witness to this.

We also see that when Jesus drives an evil spirit out of a man, the house is swept clean and it is now empty.  The demon spirit returns to an attractive situation--

Matthew 12:44
Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order.


Unoccupied.  Where is the spirit of man if there is such a thing?  The house is empty and so inviting that the demon brings seven more evil spirits to occupy the man.

Paul, in speaking to the ecclesia in Eph 4, tells them there is one Spirit...above all...pervading all...and living in us all.  This is the Spirit that man was created to carry, the Spirit of God. This is the quickening Spirit that brings the soul to life and other souls to life.  This is the Spirit that is meant to fill the empty house.  And, this is the only Spirit which will grow our souls into

the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him. [Eph 4]

[Taffy]

Yesterdays food? huh?   Then I should promise not to touch upon anything we ate together before? 

Oops, disregard my latest one then

No ya NUT :laughing7: ......,Yesterdays Food v TO DAYS FOOD ,....OLD Wine in NEW wine Skins :icon_flower:

[Tony N]

Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .

If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?

It is a fair question.  :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi James; glad you got in the thread........I got a question for you. If all these spirits, including the evil are of that One Spirit, how does that work? I'm not being argumentative here, I can see it possibly being both ways. Are you saying that God created these spirits to provide the contrast for the good, and in that way, they are one spirit? Blessings....

[rosered]

Crazy?  :happy3: Not sure how to contrast that – but given the normality of the physical world these days, it must be spiritually true! :mblush:

Who is Jer? I was once a wounded traveler, but now, "what is mine, is yours; if you have need of it."

"A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho ...and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead."

"And by chance there came down a certain priest that way ...and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side."

"And likewise, a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him and passed by on the other side."

"But ...a certain Samaritan as he journeyed, came where he was ...and when he saw him, he had compassion on him."

Appears that Jesus was suggesting that the entire hierarchy, from the Levites to the self-exalted priests, were spiritually dead.

He also was indicating that charity (loving-kindness and mercy) is the mark of a true follower, as in:

"I desired mercy, not sacrifice."

The Samaritan not only went to him, bound up his wounds (with the pouring of oil and wine) and set him on his own beast, but also brought him to an inn, and took care of him. Now, that's going the extra mile...

"And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee."

I see the good Samaritan, as taking some of his own garment to cover, dress and bind up the wounds of the person who was in need.

Whereas, the robbers encircled the traveler, taking that which was not rightfully theirs - a mentality of only the strongest survive. And, the priest and Levite could care-less, "What is mine, is mine." Thus, do not cast your burden on them – for they judge by the law, and care not!

The traveler merely received all that he was given by the spirit of the possessor; the Lord of the manor, and occupant of the house next door.

I find it more than interesting - that Rahab was an Inn keeper who lived within the city (not outside the gates), and was called a harlot by the sun dialed religion of the day, simply because – her covering (veil) had been removed in order to serve others. And, going against the grain of societal expectations always costs, especially, if you go against the natural disposition.

However, Love is one of the main characteristics of our Lord, and it ought to be manifested by all those who aspire to be the sons of God. Serving as a guide for travelers.

"Love covers a great number of people; a multitude."

Indeed  :icon_flower: Tis a Matter of the HEART!

peacemaker

Hi Jer  aka Peacemaker ,
old friend
  your post most inspiring ! :HeartThrob: Thanks for sharing whats in your heart .
 you are right without Love being  the motive and intent  of any good thing ever done , for any other reason it would be pointless
Honest  sincerity  is one of the most  striking  characteristics of a beautiful heart  that God has  formed /filled
it is a rare beauty inDEED  :HeartThrob:

[Taffy]

Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .

If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?

It is a fair question.  :icon_flower:

Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:

Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....

.where do we go to find what this means bro

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

[Zeek]

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[martincisneros]

Something brief on 1Timothy 2:15.  It's in the context of 1Timothy 2:11 about learning in all quiet submissiveness.  So, there are transformational lessons to be learned in motherhood.  Secondly, I take 1Timothy 2:15 as a promise of protection when you consider that the very high mortality rate for childbaring mothers has only been declining for about a hundred years or so.  Thirdly, there's something deeply suggestive in the context, with verses 13-14, about what the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might have been if God intended for their procreation to take place in the way that He'd just procreated with them by simply saying it rather than....Ahem!  Paul throughout his writings seems to be sanctifying sexuality in the context of marriage which was a very radical thought for the ascetics both then and now.

[Tony N]

Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .

If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?

It is a fair question.  :icon_flower:

Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:

Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....

.where do we go to find what this means bro

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.

We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.

[Zeek]

Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .

If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?

It is a fair question.  :icon_flower:

Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:

Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....

.where do we go to find what this means bro

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.

We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.

:sigh: :sigh:

[Tony N]

 :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :doh:

[Taffy]

Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .

If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?

It is a fair question.  :icon_flower:

Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:

Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....

.where do we go to find what this means bro

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.

We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.

Hi Tony ..Head still hurting  :icon_flower:

..the Travail of Childbirth Tony , tis Moving from a Child under law to A rebirthing of a SON of Faith,For me Much Confusion was going on with Women who were yet to be TRULY converted , who were married to Husbands WHICH WERE, therefore still Under law...  theres More than one way the scriptures show this.

For Unto Us a Child IS given and a SON IS BORN

Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.


Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.


seemed Paul also Understood THE figurative Truth of this...
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

These were early TIMES Tony, many as such still Babes Struggling with the Tradition of their Fathers.




 

Im going to Borrow this post,from a dear Sister......it will save me an hour or so digging it out, speaks of Such women Folk and why then they were not PERMITTED to Teach ..., which for mine explains SAVED through Child Birth.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:


What does it mean that women are to remain silent in the churches and that Paul did not allow woman to "usurp the authority over a man", or to "teach" etc?

Let's start with the verses in 1 Corinthians.

In 1 Corinthians, it seems to me that Paul is addressing the chaos and confusion going on in the Corinthian churches. In the midst of addressing what seems to me to be the ENTIRE congregation he tells the woman to remain SILENT and to ask their questions at home to their husbands IF THEY ARE TO LEARN anything.

If the Corinthians were "yet carnal" then they had not passed from "death" unto "life", right? They were still under the law and not under faith and grace? :?:  They were still learning and it appears that there was chaos and confusion going on in the meetings.   :-?

So, in the context of the verses :wink: , I don't see that Paul was saying that woman are not EVER under ANY circumstances allowed to speak... but that they can't DISRUPT the meetings by asking all kinds of QUESTIONS.  :o

Paul starts out by addressing the entire congregation and he mentions those things that are causing the CONFUSION and then he goes on to mention that the women are asking questions and disrupting the meetings, instead of waiting until they get home to ask their husbands??



1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of
confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1Co 14:34  Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Co 14:35  And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1Co 14:36  What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?[/list]

Then he goes back to speaking to the entire congregation again....


1Co 14:37  If any man (if
ANY) think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Co 14:38  But if any man (if ANY) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

1Co 14:39  Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1Co 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.[/list]


It seems to me that what is being addressed in the chaos and confusion. :?:

So now let's look at 1 Timothy where it specifically mentions "teaching"?



1Ti 2:8  I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

1Ti 2:9  In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1Ti 2:10  But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1Ti 2:11 
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1Ti 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1Ti 2:13  For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1Ti 2:15  Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, IF THEY CONTINUE in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.[/list]( SOUNDNESS OF MIND :icon_flower: )

Don't you think there is a deeper message here than what is just on the surface? Who is he referring to? Are these CONVERTED women, born again of incorruptible seed? Or are these those still "under the law", who still "travail in pain", waiting to GIVE BIRTH, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God? (Who will be "saved in childbearing"?)

Once we pass from "death" unto "life", from being in bondage under the law into the glorious liberty of the children of God, is there still male and female?

[I know there has to be more to the "first" Adam and "then" Eve, too.  :?: ]


Gal 3:24  Wherefore
the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26  For ye are all the children (uihos = son) of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.[/list]

So does what Paul said apply to those who have been baptized into Christ and who have PUT ON CHRIST?  :?: Or does it apply to those who are still under the schoolmaster? :?:

The head of the woman is MAN and the head of man is CHRIST and the head of Christ is GOD.... But the head of the BODY (where there is no male or female) IS CHRIST. 

So how are these verses to be applied? To those who have put on Christ or to those who are still under the law? Or DO they apply to BOTH?   :?:

In the BEGINNING God made them male and female and FOR THIS CAUSE the man is to LEAVE his FATHER and mother and CLEAVE unto his WIFE and they shall be ONE FLESH.

Why do we look at the NATURAL, and MISS the SPIRITUAL??  :-?

There must be a point at which we become ONE FLESH (in which there is neither male nor female, etc)??  :?:

Some want to say that as long as we are "in the flesh" we are male and female....  :-? 

But what do the scriptures say about that?

Rom 8 tells us that we walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the spirit. For "they that are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD". It says "ye are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the spirit IF SO BE that the spirit of God dwell in you".

So then, if we are no longer "in the flesh" but in the spirit (where there is neither male nor female) then how are these verses to be applied?

[Zeek]

Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .

If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?

It is a fair question.  :icon_flower:

Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:

Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....

.where do we go to find what this means bro

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.

We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.

Hi Tony ..Head still hurting  :icon_flower:

..the Travail of Childbirth Tony , tis Moving from a Child under law to A rebirthing of a SON of Faith,For me Much Confusion was going on with Women who were yet to be TRULY converted , who were married to Husbands WHICH WERE, therefore still Under law...  theres More than one way the scriptures show this.

For Unto Us a Child IS given and a SON IS BORN

Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.


Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.


seemed Paul also Understood THE spiritual Truth of this...
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

These were early TIMES Tony, many as such still Babes Struggling with the Tradition of their Fathers.




 

Im going to Borrow this post,from a dear Sister......it will save me an hour or so digging it out, speaks of Such women Folk and why then they were not PERMITTED to Teach ...speaks very MUCH again after a spiritual Reality, which for mine explains SAVED through Child Birth.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:


What does it mean that women are to remain silent in the churches and that Paul did not allow woman to "usurp the authority over a man", or to "teach" etc?

Let's start with the verses in 1 Corinthians.

In 1 Corinthians, it seems to me that Paul is addressing the chaos and confusion going on in the Corinthian churches. In the midst of addressing what seems to me to be the ENTIRE congregation he tells the woman to remain SILENT and to ask their questions at home to their husbands IF THEY ARE TO LEARN anything.

If the Corinthians were "yet carnal" then they had not passed from "death" unto "life", right? They were still under the law and not under faith and grace? :?:  They were still learning and it appears that there was chaos and confusion going on in the meetings.   :-?

So, in the context of the verses :wink: , I don't see that Paul was saying that woman are not EVER under ANY circumstances allowed to speak... but that they can't DISRUPT the meetings by asking all kinds of QUESTIONS.  :o

Paul starts out by addressing the entire congregation and he mentions those things that are causing the CONFUSION and then he goes on to mention that the women are asking questions and disrupting the meetings, instead of waiting until they get home to ask their husbands??



1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of
confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1Co 14:34  Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Co 14:35  And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1Co 14:36  What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?[/list]

Then he goes back to speaking to the entire congregation again....


1Co 14:37  If any man (if
ANY) think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Co 14:38  But if any man (if ANY) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

1Co 14:39  Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1Co 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.[/list]


It seems to me that what is being addressed in the chaos and confusion. :?:

So now let's look at 1 Timothy where it specifically mentions "teaching"?



1Ti 2:8  I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

1Ti 2:9  In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1Ti 2:10  But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1Ti 2:11 
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1Ti 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1Ti 2:13  For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1Ti 2:15  Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, IF THEY CONTINUE in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.[/list]( SOUNDNESS OF MIND :icon_flower: )

Don't you think there is a deeper message here than what is just on the surface? Who is he referring to? Are these CONVERTED women, born again of incorruptible seed? Or are these those still "under the law", who still "travail in pain", waiting to GIVE BIRTH, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God? (Who will be "saved in childbearing"?)

Once we pass from "death" unto "life", from being in bondage under the law into the glorious liberty of the children of God, is there still male and female?

[I know there has to be more to the "first" Adam and "then" Eve, too.  :?: ]


Gal 3:24  Wherefore
the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26  For ye are all the children (uihos = son) of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.[/list]

So does what Paul said apply to those who have been baptized into Christ and who have PUT ON CHRIST?  :?: Or does it apply to those who are still under the schoolmaster? :?:

The head of the woman is MAN and the head of man is CHRIST and the head of Christ is GOD.... But the head of the BODY (where there is no male or female) IS CHRIST. 

So how are these verses to be applied? To those who have put on Christ or to those who are still under the law? Or DO they apply to BOTH?   :?:

In the BEGINNING God made them male and female and FOR THIS CAUSE the man is to LEAVE his FATHER and mother and CLEAVE unto his WIFE and they shall be ONE FLESH.

Why do we look at the NATURAL, and MISS the SPIRITUAL??  :-?

There must be a point at which we become ONE FLESH (in which there is neither male nor female, etc)??  :?:

Some want to say that as long as we are "in the flesh" we are male and female....  :-? 

But what do the scriptures say about that?

Rom 8 tells us that we walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the spirit. For "they that are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD". It says "ye are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the spirit IF SO BE that the spirit of God dwell in you".

So then, if we are no longer "in the flesh" but in the spirit (where there is neither male nor female) then how are these verses to be applied?

For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning.

[Taffy]

Yesterdays food? huh?   Then I should promise not to touch upon anything we ate together before? 

Oops, disregard my latest one then

No ya NUT :laughing7: ......,Yesterdays Food v TO DAYS FOOD ,....OLD Wine in NEW wine Skins :icon_flower:

Sorry I was taking you LITERALLY misunderstanding always happen that way  :grin:

:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

[Tony N]

Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .

If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?

It is a fair question.  :icon_flower:

Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:

Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....

.where do we go to find what this means bro

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.

We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.

Hi Tony ..Head still hurting  :icon_flower:

..the Travail of Childbirth Tony , tis Moving from a Child under law to A rebirthing of a SON of Faith,For me Much Confusion was going on with Women who were yet to be TRULY converted , who were married to Husbands WHICH WERE, therefore still Under law...  theres More than one way the scriptures show this.

For Unto Us a Child IS given and a SON IS BORN

Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.


Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.


seemed Paul also Understood THE figurative Truth of this...
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

These were early TIMES Tony, many as such still Babes Struggling with the Tradition of their Fathers.




 

Im going to Borrow this post,from a dear Sister......it will save me an hour or so digging it out, speaks of Such women Folk and why then they were not PERMITTED to Teach ..., which for mine explains SAVED through Child Birth.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:


What does it mean that women are to remain silent in the churches and that Paul did not allow woman to "usurp the authority over a man", or to "teach" etc?

Let's start with the verses in 1 Corinthians.

In 1 Corinthians, it seems to me that Paul is addressing the chaos and confusion going on in the Corinthian churches. In the midst of addressing what seems to me to be the ENTIRE congregation he tells the woman to remain SILENT and to ask their questions at home to their husbands IF THEY ARE TO LEARN anything.

If the Corinthians were "yet carnal" then they had not passed from "death" unto "life", right? They were still under the law and not under faith and grace? :?:  They were still learning and it appears that there was chaos and confusion going on in the meetings.   :-?

So, in the context of the verses :wink: , I don't see that Paul was saying that woman are not EVER under ANY circumstances allowed to speak... but that they can't DISRUPT the meetings by asking all kinds of QUESTIONS.  :o

Paul starts out by addressing the entire congregation and he mentions those things that are causing the CONFUSION and then he goes on to mention that the women are asking questions and disrupting the meetings, instead of waiting until they get home to ask their husbands??



1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of
confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1Co 14:34  Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Co 14:35  And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1Co 14:36  What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?[/list]

Then he goes back to speaking to the entire congregation again....


1Co 14:37  If any man (if
ANY) think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Co 14:38  But if any man (if ANY) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

1Co 14:39  Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1Co 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.[/list]


It seems to me that what is being addressed in the chaos and confusion. :?:

So now let's look at 1 Timothy where it specifically mentions "teaching"?



1Ti 2:8  I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

1Ti 2:9  In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1Ti 2:10  But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1Ti 2:11 
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1Ti 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1Ti 2:13  For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1Ti 2:15  Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, IF THEY CONTINUE in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.[/list]( SOUNDNESS OF MIND :icon_flower: )

Don't you think there is a deeper message here than what is just on the surface? Who is he referring to? Are these CONVERTED women, born again of incorruptible seed? Or are these those still "under the law", who still "travail in pain", waiting to GIVE BIRTH, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God? (Who will be "saved in childbearing"?)

Once we pass from "death" unto "life", from being in bondage under the law into the glorious liberty of the children of God, is there still male and female?

[I know there has to be more to the "first" Adam and "then" Eve, too.  :?: ]


Gal 3:24  Wherefore
the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26  For ye are all the children (uihos = son) of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.[/list]

So does what Paul said apply to those who have been baptized into Christ and who have PUT ON CHRIST?  :?: Or does it apply to those who are still under the schoolmaster? :?:

The head of the woman is MAN and the head of man is CHRIST and the head of Christ is GOD.... But the head of the BODY (where there is no male or female) IS CHRIST. 

So how are these verses to be applied? To those who have put on Christ or to those who are still under the law? Or DO they apply to BOTH?   :?:

In the BEGINNING God made them male and female and FOR THIS CAUSE the man is to LEAVE his FATHER and mother and CLEAVE unto his WIFE and they shall be ONE FLESH.

Why do we look at the NATURAL, and MISS the SPIRITUAL??  :-?

There must be a point at which we become ONE FLESH (in which there is neither male nor female, etc)??  :?:

Some want to say that as long as we are "in the flesh" we are male and female....  :-? 

But what do the scriptures say about that?

Rom 8 tells us that we walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the spirit. For "they that are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD". It says "ye are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the spirit IF SO BE that the spirit of God dwell in you".

So then, if we are no longer "in the flesh" but in the spirit (where there is neither male nor female) then how are these verses to be applied?

Taffy, do you REALLY believe that Paul meant all the above which you wrote and copy and pasted concerning this?:

1Ti 2:14-15  and Adam was not seduced, yet the woman, being deluded, has come to be in the transgression)."  (15)  Yet she shall be saved through the child bearing, if ever they should be remaining in faith and love and holiness with sanity."

[Tony N]

Yesterdays food? huh?   Then I should promise not to touch upon anything we ate together before? 

Oops, disregard my latest one then

No ya NUT :laughing7: ......,Yesterdays Food v TO DAYS FOOD ,....OLD Wine in NEW wine Skins :icon_flower:

Sorry I was taking you LITERALLY misunderstanding always happen that way  :grin:

I suppose you don't take this LITERALLY either:

"Christ died for our sins" cause if you did, you might be misunderstood?

[Molly]

Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .

If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?

It is a fair question.  :icon_flower:

Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:

Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....

.where do we go to find what this means bro

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.

We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.

This is a TEST.  This is only a TEST.


22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

:happy3:

[Tony N]

Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .

If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?

It is a fair question.  :icon_flower:

Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:

Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....

.where do we go to find what this means bro

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.

We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.

This is a TEST.  This is only a TEST.


22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

:happy3:

but, but ,but Molly, it's not what you think. We have to allegorize that verse until it doesn't mean what it originally meant. That way we don't have to believe it.

[Taffy]

 

Taffy, do you REALLY believe that Paul meant all the above which you wrote and copy and pasted concerning this?:

1Ti 2:14-15  and Adam was not seduced, yet the woman, being deluded, has come to be in the transgression)."  (15)  Yet she shall be saved through the child bearing, if ever they should be remaining in faith and love and holiness with sanity."

No Tony..thats WHY I posted it.......  :happygrin:

Well Actualy Tony , Not  all was Copied and Pasted , Cand P saves time.. :icon_flower: ...Ca
Bro If I was to explain more..youd go back to the Beginning and start again.like you have done several Times before.

Im calling It quits..But there are More than several Witnessess to what Ive posted  who also believe this to be true,  and Theres MANY MORE SCRIPS which could be added , a plenty, ...But for now maybe theres No point..each to their own bro..Just watch ya dont do some permanent damage on that wall :laughing7:

Peace to you :icon_flower:

Been nice talking
Taffy



Peace to you Bro....

[Molly]

Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .

If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?

It is a fair question.  :icon_flower:

Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:

Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....

.where do we go to find what this means bro

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.

We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.

This is a TEST.  This is only a TEST.


22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

:happy3:

but, but ,but Molly, it's not what you think. We have to allegorize that verse until it doesn't mean what it originally meant. That way we don't have to believe it.

I do tend to take things more literally than not.  So I'm with you on that point.  But, sometimes the literal pries open the spiritual world and you just can't help but fall in.   So Jesus saves us, yes, that's a literal fact, but the spiritual implications of it are enormous, and can change the whole world by causing people to think differently.

[Molly]

Adam wasn't deceived but if he were a good provider, Eve wouldn't have had to be out on the marketplace negotiating for apples with shady characters.

[Molly]

Adam wasn't deceived but if he were a good provider, Eve wouldn't have had to be out on the marketplace negotiating for apples with shady characters.

I thought food shopping was the womans job?  :grin: Great I hate doing it so I'll tell my husband I just learned it was HIS today  :grin: Afterall her job was the kids and his was to sweat for bread, so you might be right, had he taken his position as the head she would have never gotten humanity into this mess  :grin:

Its just weird that in one place Adam sinned and in another place its her who did and you'd think it would read" As in Eve death passed upon all men" or something like that  :grin:

Yeah, well they are really blaming her, it's just that most don't know that she changed the fine print so that her name was Adam, too, thereby fooling the whole world.




1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

--Gen 5