Natural and Spiritual

[martincisneros]

Anyone ever hurt another person by throwing flesh at them?

They do it in boxing, wrestling, martial arts, and street fights all of the time.

[Molly]

Here's what somebody else says.  He says the spirit is part of the soul...but it is the soul that gives us our individuality...(so, all spirits are the same?  Not sure this makes much sense to me either)...





Question: Could you tell me the difference between "SOUL" and "SPIRIT"? It would be greatly appreciated if I could find out what the New Testament Greek language might have been to define the two. Many thanks.

Ray in Mesa, AZ

Hi Ray,

Concerning your question on the Soul versus the Spirit, let me first say it is a good one! There are some who don't believe there is a difference. This is due to the fact that the Hebrew word for soul is nephesh which means literally "life". It is also used for animals (Gen 1:20-24) and man as a whole person (Joshua 2:13, Exodus 21:23). The Hebrew texts denotes the spirit as "ruach" and refers to it as only the immaterial part of man (Num 16:22).

The greek of the New Testament makes things a little more clear. We know there is a difference between the soul (psyche) and the spirit (pneuma) by looking at Hebrews 4:12- "For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit..." .

The spirit is always referred to as the immaterial part of man. Man is not a spirit, he has a spirit. I believe the soul (psyche) is just what the greek word implies... the makeup of man. You are different from every other person. The thing that makes Raymond Raymond is the soul. The soul is how you relate to others and how you understand yourself. The spirit is how you relate to God. When you are reborn, you are born of spirit (John 3:5-6). The spirit is part of the soul, much like the mind is part of the soul. It is the soul, though, that comprises who you are.

Animals don't have a spirit per se- they don't seek God. Plants have a body, animals have a body and soul (they are capable of relating to man and other animals), but only man has a spirit. Both the soul and spirit pass when man dies, thus you will be recognizable as Raymond in the coming resurrection (ref Matt 17:3) and you will as a believer forever be able to fellowship with God. You will be given a new body (1 Cor 15:51-55), but you will be you.

http://www.comereason.org/theo_issues/theo070.asp

[Molly]

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit [Pneuma], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh [sarx] is flesh [sarx]; and that which is born of the Spirit [Pneuma] is spirit[pneuma].

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

--John 3



Then again, this passage makes it sound like man born of woman cannot have spirit (pneuma).  Pneuma can only be born of pneuma.  He's saying we must be [born from above] to have pneuma.

[Molly]

And, here, he says you cannot even see (much less enter) the kingdom of God unless you are [born from above of Pneuma]


1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

--John 3

[Molly]

Rom 7:22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members [parts of the body], warring against the law of my mind [nous], and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind [nous] I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh [sarx] the law of sin.

Rom 8:  1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh[sarx], but after the Spirit [Pneuma].

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh [sarx], God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh [sarx], and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh [sarx]:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh [sarx], but after the Spirit [Pneuma].

5For they that are after the flesh [sarx] do mind the things of the flesh [sarx]; but they that are after the Spirit [Pneuma] the things of the Spirit [Pneuma].

6For to be carnally [sarx] minded  is death; but to be spiritually [pneuma] minded is life and peace.

[Tony N]

Hi Taffy,
So can I say that since Jesus isn't really coming back, just sort of spiritually, that I can say God isn't going to save all mankind? He'll just maybe give them each a 6 pack and a new T.V.? Of course those would be spiritual 6 packs and T.V.'s. They don't really get the reality.

You CAN say what Ya LIKE Tony  :icon_flower: But it doesnt necessarily make it Fact :icon_flower:

Ya aint going to get a FIGHT out of me Bud.., ya been itching for one from the OFF :laughing7:


Now have Good Day :icon_flower:

Taffy, I hope you are just kidding about itching for a fight. I actually like you and don't want to fight anyone. I just like to get to the exactly what some of you actually mean.

I think some of you are confusing that which is figurative for spiritual. Believing what Christ said, now that's spiritual. Turning what Christ said as to His figures of speech into more figures of speech is being figurative, not spiritual. You dig?

For instance, Christ gave the literal meaning of what the figurative wheat and tares are. To turn His literal meaning back into a wholy different figure is not being spiritual.

He went from figurative to literal not from natural to spiritual in that message. Capish?

[Molly]

Hi Taffy,
So can I say that since Jesus isn't really coming back, just sort of spiritually, that I can say God isn't going to save all mankind? He'll just maybe give them each a 6 pack and a new T.V.? Of course those would be spiritual 6 packs and T.V.'s. They don't really get the reality.

You CAN say what Ya LIKE Tony  :icon_flower: But it doesnt necessarily make it Fact :icon_flower:

Ya aint going to get a FIGHT out of me Bud.., ya been itching for one from the OFF :laughing7:


Now have Good Day :icon_flower:

Taffy, I hope you are just kidding about itching for a fight. I actually like you and don't want to fight anyone. I just like to get to the exactly what some of you actually mean.

I think some of you are confusing that which is figurative for spiritual. Believing what Christ said, now that's spiritual. Turning what Christ said as to His figures of speech into more figures of speech is being figurative, not spiritual. You dig?

For instance, Christ gave the literal meaning of what the figurative wheat and tares are. To turn His literal meaning back into a wholy different figure is not being spiritual.

He went from figurative to literal not from natural to spiritual in that message. Capish?

well, I think what they are saying is that the tares are those who are flesh minded.  And the wheat are those that are spiritually minded.  But we can see from the scriptures posted above that the flesh minded can be born again into spirit.  So all flesh has the potential to be born again.  But even when we are born again into spirit, there are still elements of the flesh warring against elements of the spirit--as Paul tells us--so we have to train ourselves to walk after the spirit.  So there still can be a mixture.

But, I think that in addition to that there can be those born of an evil spirit--like the Pharisees. That's why Jesus calls their father satan (who is spirit). Jesus tells them they are shutting the kingdom of heaven against those who are entering in.  Well, they can't do that unless they can see it.  And they can't see it, unless they are spirit.  Although I'm sure this will be in dispute.

[Tony N]

Im more of a comparer and I dont like to wrestle with things in the natural order of things (which to me) speak as a similitude of something higher in them.

Maybe this is what some dont understand sis,  :dontknow:

No one is Stating dismiss the Natural order ,or the Literal , we need to see that first ,FIRST the Natural ..it doesnt say...Dismiss IT .

:icon_flower:

Absolutely, I didnt mean that comment as directed at you G, Its obvious to me our Lord came in the flesh and walked among us as one man, and not regarding him after the flesh is admonished but after the Spirit. Certainly its not dismissing the fact he did but regarding the Spiritual is where the life is for me. The apostles said the natural man cannot accept the things from the Spirit for they are foolishness to him and even Paul said he could not talk to them as spiritual while they were yet carnal so I wonder, how did he talk to them while being somewhat as a mother nursing them waiting till Christ was formed in them? I can honestly say I sometimes dont know what folks are saying and Im sure they can say the same of myself because I know I lack in clarity alot, Im still learning of Him, and the more I learn the less I know  :grin: But I think its better then anyone thinking they know anything at all. But I do think we can all hear the scriptures, though maybe not always what the Spirit might be saying always because there are those that apppear to hear the law and those that appear to hear and be led by the Spirit. There does seem to be a difference and there is definately the sense that Paul could not speak a certain way to one group of christians then to another thats undenialble so is speaking that way to them an advisable thing or more of a noteable example to any of us?

I dont know, Id assume so ?

No Fire, I was in agreement with your illustration, thanks for adding some
:icon_flower:

Just what did Paul mean by Comparing Spiritual with Spiritual

1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

mmm :icon_flower:

Very good Taffy. That is an excellent quote of 1 Corinthians 2:13.
But let's make sure we both understand it correctly. It doesn't say "comparing spiritual things with figurative." You hip to my trip?

What are the words which the holy spirit gave us? God's words are purified 7 times which are written in what we call the Bible. When the holy spirit said "aionian kolasin" it didn't mean "eternal torment." That's not spiritual. The proper spiritual words are "eonian chastening." And to match "spiritual blessings with spiritual words" as stated here in the Concordant Version:

1Co 2:13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words" means that God chose the exact words to use in the Scriptures which would match the actual blessings we receive now and in the future.

Are we on the same page?

Or do you see it differently?

Love!

Antonio

[Molly]

Just as the Levite priesthood is passed down from father to son on the basis of blood, so is the Melchizadek priesthood passed from Father to Son on the basis of an eternal life and an oath.



12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1

[Taffy]

Hi Taffy,
So can I say that since Jesus isn't really coming back, just sort of spiritually, that I can say God isn't going to save all mankind? He'll just maybe give them each a 6 pack and a new T.V.? Of course those would be spiritual 6 packs and T.V.'s. They don't really get the reality.

You CAN say what Ya LIKE Tony  :icon_flower: But it doesnt necessarily make it Fact :icon_flower:

Ya aint going to get a FIGHT out of me Bud.., ya been itching for one from the OFF :laughing7:


Now have Good Day :icon_flower:

Taffy, I hope you are just kidding about itching for a fight. I actually like you and don't want to fight anyone. I just like to get to the exactly what some of you actually mean.

I think some of you are confusing that which is figurative for spiritual. Believing what Christ said, now that's spiritual. Turning what Christ said as to His figures of speech into more figures of speech is being figurative, not spiritual. You dig?

For instance, Christ gave the literal meaning of what the figurative wheat and tares are. To turn His literal meaning back into a wholy different figure is not being spiritual.

He went from figurative to literal not from natural to spiritual in that message. Capish?

Hi Tony..Food fight bro :icon_king :

I dont disagree ,Christ  gave the Literal explaination to the Tares and the Wheat , making it a Parable\allegory ,so again we are Back to Metaphors , and as all Parables  for mine speak of the Kingdom  , ..and then we are Back full circle to what we were discussing Tony, as the Outward man is Now Dead, this for me speaks to the INNERMAN,..could be perhaps why the pharisees etc couldnt understand, for ever Literally LOOKING for the Kingdom still to Come :icon_flower:

does not Faith comes By Hearing ,Blessed are those who see AND hear, The rendering of the veil  (of the heart and mind)..A burning of the Tares come harvest , speaks to me as Those Shown outwardly , as Christ commonly did Using the Pharisees , but equally speaks of what Happens To the Innerman...

:icon_flower:

[Molly]

Taffy, I don't think the Pharisees are just flesh run amok.  I think they are of a different spirit (satan). 

And, I'm thinking more and more that the story of Jonathan and David describes more accurately our relationship to Christ--where their souls are knitted together.

Because just being in spirit is not the solution.  As we can see, there is a war in the heavenlies, and we are battling against spirit, not flesh and blood.

Therefore, although we have the mind of Christ, it is not enough--our souls must be knitted together with the soul of Christ--that's the marriage that is being spoken of,  because Christ is not just the mind of God, he is the very heart and soul of God.

Col 2:2

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ..

[Taffy]

Im more of a comparer and I dont like to wrestle with things in the natural order of things (which to me) speak as a similitude of something higher in them.

Maybe this is what some dont understand sis,  :dontknow:

No one is Stating dismiss the Natural order ,or the Literal , we need to see that first ,FIRST the Natural ..it doesnt say...Dismiss IT .

:icon_flower:

Absolutely, I didnt mean that comment as directed at you G, Its obvious to me our Lord came in the flesh and walked among us as one man, and not regarding him after the flesh is admonished but after the Spirit. Certainly its not dismissing the fact he did but regarding the Spiritual is where the life is for me. The apostles said the natural man cannot accept the things from the Spirit for they are foolishness to him and even Paul said he could not talk to them as spiritual while they were yet carnal so I wonder, how did he talk to them while being somewhat as a mother nursing them waiting till Christ was formed in them? I can honestly say I sometimes dont know what folks are saying and Im sure they can say the same of myself because I know I lack in clarity alot, Im still learning of Him, and the more I learn the less I know  :grin: But I think its better then anyone thinking they know anything at all. But I do think we can all hear the scriptures, though maybe not always what the Spirit might be saying always because there are those that apppear to hear the law and those that appear to hear and be led by the Spirit. There does seem to be a difference and there is definately the sense that Paul could not speak a certain way to one group of christians then to another thats undenialble so is speaking that way to them an advisable thing or more of a noteable example to any of us?

I dont know, Id assume so ?

No Fire, I was in agreement with your illustration, thanks for adding some
:icon_flower:

Just what did Paul mean by Comparing Spiritual with Spiritual

1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

mmm :icon_flower:

Very good Taffy. That is an excellent quote of 1 Corinthians 2:13.
But let's make sure we both understand it correctly. It doesn't say "comparing spiritual things with figurative." You hip to my trip?

What are the words which the holy spirit gave us? God's words are purified 7 times which are written in what we call the Bible. When the holy spirit said "aionian kolasin" it didn't mean "eternal torment." That's not spiritual. The proper spiritual words are "eonian chastening." And to match "spiritual blessings with spiritual words" as stated here in the Concordant Version:

1Co 2:13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words" means that God chose the exact words to use in the Scriptures which would match the actual blessings we receive now and in the future.

Are we on the same page?

Or do you see it differently?

Love!

Antonio

mm not sure if im readin ya right T....but equally so, if ya will, not unlike Fire gave as an example...,First the Natural showing a SPIRITUAL Truth then comparing that with others the same way...which equally I seem to find Repeats the same message over and over,( Types, shadows ,similitudes)....Just worded Differently.. not unlike Like the parables, which all speak of the Kingdom.

:icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

He definately twisted what God said thats for sure neither abided in His words, though whats funny is after Jesus speaks to the Pharisees speaking about believing in Him and never dying they saw him as the serpent in the garden "ye shall not die" and they were like "NOW we KNOW you have a devil" !! :grin:

Same words different tree?  :grin:

Fire, you just made my day with this..... :goodpost: :ty:

[Cardinal]

Then if the accuser moves into the top floor, annie bar the door, it can get really unpleasant.

Cracked up on this line....Molly girl, you have a great sense of humor....... :laughing7:

[Taffy]

Taffy, I don't think the Pharisees are just flesh run amok.  I think they are of a different spirit (satan). 

And, I'm thinking more and more that the story of Jonathan and David describes more accurately our relationship to Christ--where their souls are knitted together.

Because just being in spirit is not the solution.  As we can see, there is a war in the heavenlies, and we are battling against spirit, not flesh and blood.

Therefore, although we have the mind of Christ, it is not enough--our souls must be knitted together with the soul of Christ--that's the marriage that is being spoken of,  because Christ is not just the mind of God, he is the very heart and soul of God.

Hi Molly :icon_flower:

The Pharisees epitomise the Enmity of the flesh, the carnal mind, Thier minds were sure warring with HIM.

Maybe I dont see it being  that confusing Molly ...I see One Mind and Heart Destroyed,perishes (that being the carnal mind- the soul of MAN) being  Re newed at Birth By HIS In US making us Whole , the marriage is Oneness, The battle is for THE MIND  is to stay one in HIM and not fall away, finish the race.....

The battle with Principalites are Oracles,( in our minds) seems many of them at that Time still struggled From the Law and the Bondage of them.

:icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The Lord showed me the soul is our "Eve", and Eve is our stony heart. Bones are made of calcium (stony) and she was taken from a rib. Blessings....

[Molly]

Taffy, I don't think the Pharisees are just flesh run amok.  I think they are of a different spirit (satan). 

And, I'm thinking more and more that the story of Jonathan and David describes more accurately our relationship to Christ--where their souls are knitted together.

Because just being in spirit is not the solution.  As we can see, there is a war in the heavenlies, and we are battling against spirit, not flesh and blood.

Therefore, although we have the mind of Christ, it is not enough--our souls must be knitted together with the soul of Christ--that's the marriage that is being spoken of,  because Christ is not just the mind of God, he is the very heart and soul of God.

Hi Molly :icon_flower:

The pharisees epitomise the Enmity of the flesh, the carnal mind, Thier minds were sure waring with HIM.

Maybe I dont see it being confusing Molly ...I see One Mind and Heart Destroyed,perishes (that being the carnal mind) the soul of MAN) being  Re newed at Birth By HIS In US making us Whole , the marriage is Oneness, The battle is for THE MIND to stay one in HIM and not fall away, finish the race.....

The battle with Principalites are Oracles,( in our minds) seems many of them at that Time still struggledFrom the Law and the Bondage of them.

:icon_flower:

It's the knitting together of the souls that is the solution.  That's why he keeps talking about I am in you and you are in me and we are in him.   This idea of threads being wound around each other so you have one rope, and you can no longer tell one thread from another.  That's what a vine does--it wraps itself around and around something else--and two vines doing that--you can't tell them apart--souls knit together.

I am the true vine... [Jn15]

[Taffy]

:cloud9: The Lord showed me the soul is our "Eve", and Eve is our stony heart. Bones are made of calcium (stony) and she was taken from a rib. Blessings....

yup ... :icon_flower:

[Molly]

:cloud9: The Lord showed me the soul is our "Eve", and Eve is our stony heart. Bones are made of calcium (stony) and she was taken from a rib. Blessings....

Eve is a soul without a spirit.  Her spirit is Adam.  That is why she doesn't die (spiritually) until he eats.

[Taffy]

It's the knitting together of the souls that is the solution.  That's why he keeps talking about I am in you and you are in me and we are in him.   This idea of threads being wound around each other so you have one rope, and you can no longer tell one thread from another.  That's what a vine does--it wraps itself around and around something else--and two vines doing that--you can't tell them apart--souls knit together

I like That Molly :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: to Molly  :thumbsup:

[Molly]

1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

--Rev 6

[he..had] "a bow"

G5115
τόξον
toxon
tox'-on
From the base of G5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): - bow.


G5088
τίκτω
tiktō
tik'-to
A strengthened from of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.



21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

--Gen 2

"rib"

H6763
צלעה    צלע
tsêlâ‛  tsal‛âh
tsay-law', tsal-aw'
From H6760; a rib (as curved), literally (of the body) or figuratively (of a door, that is, leaf); hence a side, literally (of a person) or figuratively (of an object or the sky, that is, quarter); arcitecturally a timber (especially floor or ceiling) or plank (single or collectively, that is, a flooring): - beem, board, chamber, corner, leaf, plank, rib, side (chamber).


H6760
צלע
tsâla‛
tsaw-lah'
A primitive root; probably to curve; used only as denominative from H6763, to limp (as if one sided): -
halt.



...and a crown was given unto him:.. [Rev 6]



"crown"

G4735
στέφανος
stephanos
stef'-an-os
From an apparently primary "stepho" (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, G1238), literally or figuratively: - crown.



1 Samuel 18:1
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

"knit"

H7194
קשׁר
qâshar
kaw-shar'
A primitive root; to tie, physically (gird, confine, compact) or mentally (in love, league): - bind (up), (make a) conspire (-acy, -ator), join together, knit, stronger, work [treason].



Philippians 3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The heart of flesh He gives us is Christ's flesh. Not flesh as we think of flesh, but celestial flesh, ie. not hardened by sin.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks for the word post Molly....like I said in a previous post, rib and chamber are the same. Also years ago when I was studying this, it lines up with the sides of Noah's ark too; same word used. As is part of the wood in the tabernacle. He goes out of His way to leave a "bread trail" doesn't He, LOL?

[martincisneros]

Hi Tony,

Any confusion over the parables of Jesus or over the rest of the New Testament is from anyone that doesn't understand Mark chapter 4.  That's Jesus's Rosetta Stone teaching.  He said so Himself.

13 And He is saying to them, "Have you not perceived this parable? And how will you know all parables? (Mark 4:13 Concordant)

13 And he saith unto them - Know ye not this parable? How then will ye get to know all the parables? (Mark 4:13 Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)

13 And he saith to them, `Have ye not known this simile? and how shall ye know all the similes? (Mark 4:13 Young's Literal Translation)

If His Words mean anything at all, then the above means that Mark 4 interprets Matthew 24, Matthew 25, Mark 13, Luke 21, the book of Revelation, etc.  Mark 4 is the parable to read with absolutely all of the parables and with any verse anywhere that's not coming through loud and clear.  It's beyond just a dissection of the laws that govern gradual spiritual growth.  It's the actual defining key to Scripture.