Natural and Spiritual

[Tony N]

I've noticed alot of people who post here write often that their understanding is "spiritual" rather than "natural."

But in reality, the "spiritual" is just another word for "figurative." You are turning something Jesus said as a figure of speech and turning it into another new and different figure of speech. It's not spiritual, it's unbelief.

What I find interesting is that when Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are brought up people dance all around those passages and say they should be taken spiritually. In other words, the tares stand for our flesh and the wheat for us as well. Lightning isn't really lightning and Christ's return isn't really Christ's return.

So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: God saving all mankind isn't really God saving all mankind. Let's just spiritualize or figuratise that too.

[Taffy]

So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: God saving all mankind isn't really God saving all mankind. Let's just spiritualize or figuratise that too.

Hi Tony,
How ya doing Bud :icon_flower:

Tis through what you call the figurative or Spiritual, is IN TRUTH ,how I came to UNDERSTAND Christ the savior of ALL... :icon_flower:

The Topic of that Last Thread" Was the Temple to be Rebuilt" ....There are those who through the scrips have declared this to Be NOW and there as those who see it differently....Each to their own :icon_flower:

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Blessings
Taffy :icon_flower:

[Tony N]

So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: God saving all mankind isn't really God saving all mankind. Let's just spiritualize or figuratise that too.

Hi Tony,
How ya doing Bud :icon_flower:

Tis through what you call the figurative or Spiritual, is IN TRUTH ,how I came to UNDERSTAND Christ the savior of ALL... :icon_flower:

The Topic of that Last Thread" Was the Temple to be Rebuilt" ....There are those who through the scrips have declared this to Be NOW and there as those who see it differently....Each to their own :icon_flower:

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Blessings
Taffy :icon_flower:

Hi Taffy,
So can I say that since Jesus isn't really coming back, just sort of spiritually, that I can say God isn't going to save all mankind? He'll just maybe give them each a 6 pack and a new T.V.? Of course those would be spiritual 6 packs and T.V.'s. They don't really get the reality.

[Tony N]

Well I dont agree with the letter of the word we know it kills but the Spirit gives life and that Jesus spoke in parables, and Hosea says God spake to the prophets in similitudes and visions etc, there are mysteries and Im not one who claims to know them all but I do agree with the dancing its irritating. If something might not make sense to me (which sometimes it might not I'm not going to pretend I see in full) its scriptural to see IN PART and if your one of the lucky ones who have ALL knowledge its STILL IN PART  :grin:

Hi Kim. I surely don't have all knowledge and I do struggle along but I know when I'm being flimflammed.

By the way, you stated that "Well I dont agree with the letter of the word we know it kills but the Spirit gives life" Where in the Bible does it say that?

Here is the context of "the letter" . . .


2Co 3:1 Are we beginning again to commend ourselves? Or need we not, even as some, commendatory letters to you or from you?
2Co 3:2 You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven, not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart."
2Co 3:4 Now such is the confidence we have through Christ toward God
2Co 3:5 (not that we are competent of ourselves, to reckon anything as of ourselves, but our competency is of God),
2Co 3:6 Who also makes us competent dispensers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the spirit, for the letter is killing, yet the spirit is vivifying."
2Co 3:7 (Now if the dispensation of death, by letters chiseled in stone, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look intently into the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face, which was being nullified,

Dear Kim, the letter, chiseled in stone which is the law, is killing. The spirit of grace is what makes people come to life to God. Paul isn't saying that the letters he wrote and which we call his epistles is killing. The letters which comprise the evangel of grace does not kill.

When folks use their own words rather then HIS to slip through a debate and leave you with that HUH? (feeling) I will have to agree with you there. We might not see eye to eye on all things but that does not invalidate "every" point you have to make.

Peace

kim

Cool.

[Molly]

2Co 3:2 You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven, not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart."

Ah, some of the most beautiful words in the Bible--You are our letter--engraved in our hearts--for you are manifesting a letter of Christ--engraved with the Spirit of the living God--

There's the temple of God, Tony, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart.

[martincisneros]

I've noticed alot of people who post here write often that their understanding is "spiritual" rather than "natural."

But in reality, the "spiritual" is just another word for "figurative." You are turning something Jesus said as a figure of speech and turning it into another new and different figure of speech. It's not spiritual, it's unbelief.

What I find interesting is that when Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are brought up people dance all around those passages and say they should be taken spiritually. In other words, the tares stand for our flesh and the wheat for us as well. Lightning isn't really lightning and Christ's return isn't really Christ's return.

So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: God saving all mankind isn't really God saving all mankind. Let's just spiritualize or figuratise that too.

ROFLOL!  A little more eloquent than I was yesterday in a PM to someone where the book of Revelation is concerned.  If it's not a pain in the butt over dial-up, I'll try to find a quote on what I'd said in closing.  I'd been asked about something that I'd said with regards to Islam and I'd added a bit via PM to what I'd said and then said:

"I may be going overly literal on that aspect as far as the wording of Revelation, but I'm trying to be as literal as possible until I understand the literal and then I can see how it could apply metaphorically and whatever rather than dismissing the literal and chasing my tail with hyper-spiritualizations about stuff where I wouldn't know what I was talking about and would simply be trying to be deep or whatever.  I don't want depth without foundation to where a better teacher comes along later and makes me look like I was on crack when I said such and such.  I've got this hangup about being the most accurate person about anything spiritual.

"You might have already seen a little bit on the boards where some folks will just about say anything about some of the passages and be prematurely dismissive of anyone's attempt at understanding it literally first, before extrapolating from that what they believe God's telling us from it that would be relevant to our own personal lives.  With me, I'm trying not to say more about the book of Revelation than it actually says until I understand the book better.

[Taffy]

Im more of a comparer and I dont like to wrestle with things in the natural order of things (which to me) speak as a similitude of something higher in them.

Maybe this is what some dont understand sis,  :dontknow:

No one is Stating dismiss the Natural order ,or the Literal , we need to see that first ,FIRST the Natural ..it doesnt say...Dismiss IT .

:icon_flower:

[Tony N]

2Co 3:2 You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven, not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart."

Ah, some of the most beautiful words in the Bible--You are our letter--engraved in our hearts--for you are manifesting a letter of Christ--engraved with the Spirit of the living God--

There's the temple of God, Tony, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart.

So are you saying that if the letter kills and we are Paul's letter that we kill? Hmmm. :Chinscratch:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: It's real simple, the way I see it. If He gives you something natural, bring it to the table with thanksgiving. If He gives you something spiritual, bring it to the table with thanksgiving.

I've never been to a banquet yet, where all that was on the table was one dish. In the same vein, I don't think He serves just bread/Word or just wine/Spirit, but He serves both. Since He is the Lord of the banquet, He will make sure you are filled with just what is needed, at just the right moment, to add to the measure of the stature of Christ within, something none of us can do. Blessings....

[Taffy]

Hi Taffy,
So can I say that since Jesus isn't really coming back, just sort of spiritually, that I can say God isn't going to save all mankind? He'll just maybe give them each a 6 pack and a new T.V.? Of course those would be spiritual 6 packs and T.V.'s. They don't really get the reality.

You CAN say what Ya LIKE Tony  :icon_flower: But it doesnt necessarily make it Fact :icon_flower:

Ya aint going to get a FIGHT out of me Bud.., ya been itching for one from the OFF :laughing7:


Now have Good Day :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

:cloud9: It's real simple, the way I see it. If He gives you something natural, bring it to the table with thanksgiving. If He gives you something spiritual, bring it to the table with thanksgiving.

I've never been to a banquet yet, where all that was on the table was one dish. In the same vein, I don't think He serves just bread/Word or just wine/Spirit, but He serves both. Since He is the Lord of the banquet, He will make sure you are filled with just what is needed, at just the right moment, to add to the measure of the stature of Christ within, something none of us can do. Blessings....

yup :icon_flower:

[martincisneros]

All 2Corinthians 3 is saying is that the Ten Commandments have been done away with in Christ since we live on a much higher level with being transfigured by the renewal of our minds.  The Ten Commandments were the only part of the Law written on Stone Tablets and are therefore the only part of the law being addressed in 2Corinthians 3.  And being written to the Church at Corinth, then the obvious implication is that they were to be a cultural influence that would pull the city out of filth, paganism, and self love.  They were to be His Second Coming, for all practical intents and purposes; the eschatology of that city.  But that didn't preclude His literal future return to bring us into the New Earth, according to His promise in 2Peter 3.  The only person that I know for certain was denying a literal return of Jesus Christ has already been banned.  Others around here have been stopping short of saying much about His actual return and have been focusing on the revelation of Christ within us the hope of glory.  Perhaps greater discipline should be exercised in threads in the difference between God revealing His Son within each of us and His literal return to judge the living and the dead to avoid the confusion that anyone's denying His actual return.

[Molly]

2Co 3:2 You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven, not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart."

Ah, some of the most beautiful words in the Bible--You are our letter--engraved in our hearts--for you are manifesting a letter of Christ--engraved with the Spirit of the living God--

There's the temple of God, Tony, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart.

So are you saying that if the letter kills and we are Paul's letter that we kill? Hmmm. :Chinscratch:

No. I'm saying freeeedom! :bigGrin:

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[Taffy]

Im more of a comparer and I dont like to wrestle with things in the natural order of things (which to me) speak as a similitude of something higher in them.

Maybe this is what some dont understand sis,  :dontknow:

No one is Stating dismiss the Natural order ,or the Literal , we need to see that first ,FIRST the Natural ..it doesnt say...Dismiss IT .

:icon_flower:

Absolutely, I didnt mean that comment as directed at you G, Its obvious to me our Lord came in the flesh and walked among us as one man, and not regarding him after the flesh is admonished but after the Spirit. Certainly its not dismissing the fact he did but regarding the Spiritual is where the life is for me. The apostles said the natural man cannot accept the things from the Spirit for they are foolishness to him and even Paul said he could not talk to them as spiritual while they were yet carnal so I wonder, how did he talk to them while being somewhat as a mother nursing them waiting till Christ was formed in them? I can honestly say I sometimes dont know what folks are saying and Im sure they can say the same of myself because I know I lack in clarity alot, Im still learning of Him, and the more I learn the less I know  :grin: But I think its better then anyone thinking they know anything at all. But I do think we can all hear the scriptures, though maybe not always what the Spirit might be saying always because there are those that apppear to hear the law and those that appear to hear and be led by the Spirit. There does seem to be a difference and there is definately the sense that Paul could not speak a certain way to one group of christians then to another thats undenialble so is speaking that way to them an advisable thing or more of a noteable example to any of us?

I dont know, Id assume so ?

No Fire, I was in agreement with your illustration, thanks for adding some
:icon_flower:

Just what did Paul mean by Comparing Spiritual with Spiritual

1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

mmm :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

All 2Corinthians 3 is saying is that the Ten Commandments have been done away with in Christ since we live on a much higher level with being transfigured by the renewal of our minds.  The Ten Commandments were the only part of the Law written on Stone Tablets and are therefore the only part of the law being addressed in 2Corinthians 3.  And being written to the Church at Corinth, then the obvious implication is that they were to be a cultural influence that would pull the city out of filth, paganism, and self love.  They were to be His Second Coming, for all practical intents and purposes; the eschatology of that city.  But that didn't preclude His literal future return to bring us into the New Earth, according to His promise in 2Peter 3.  The only person that I know for certain was denying a literal return of Jesus Christ has already been banned.  Others around here have been stopping short of saying much about His actual return and have been focusing on the revelation of Christ within us the hope of glory.  Perhaps greater discipline should be exercised in threads in the difference between God revealing His Son within each of us and His literal return to judge the living and the dead to avoid the confusion that anyone's denying His actual return.

Martin
Personally, For mine  thesedays I choose not to get involved with either post or Pre mill..or any other version , spent 20 yrs with that in the WWCG... so I opt to leave that to those who do....     :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

Personally, For mine  thesedays I choose not to get involved with either post or Pre mill..or any other version , spent 20 yrs with that in the WWCG... so I opt to leave that to those who do....     :icon_flower:

I never could get into them either, Taff. I didn't know why until I sat down here to add this comment. Both of them have the same root of the 2 thieves on the cross, ie. it's always another day, instead of now is the day of your salvation, and the kingdom being searched for is not within. Blessings....

[martincisneros]

Both of them have the same root of the 2 thieves on the cross, ie. it's always another day, instead of now is the day of your salvation, and the kingdom being searched for is not within. Blessings....

Actually, an understanding about what the Bible has to say about the coming of the Lord doesn't negate our understanding of the Christ within us, unless one is cessationist and deferring all of their hopes until the Lord's return.  You'll not find greater advocates of personal transformation, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and the forcefully advancing Kingdom through the taught Word and Kingdom principles into all of the earth than the Postmillenialist.  All I'm saying is that there's more than both the Christ within us and the return of the Lord.  It's both rather than either/or.  I am a bit put off by interpretations of many passages of Scripture that specifically relate to our being revealed with Him in glory being put off by any of the millenial schools into the deep future.  The day of visitation, our being like Him seeing Him as He is, when Christ who is our life is revealed we're also revealed with Him in glory, and perhaps a dozen other statements of the Scriptures are emphatically NOW passages. 

But the early chapters of Acts are emphatic about a literal bodily return of Christ Jesus when restitution at an advanced stage is being made.  (It's revealed to us in Scripture to flow with the "from glory to glory" principle.)  That's excitement; joy unspeakable and full of glory, provided that you're not missing out on greater and greater revelations of the Son of God within and through you in this life.  It's when it becomes either/or that the confusion comes in and peoples lives are shipwrecked by putting off until tomorrow what they can have today and acting as though our own deaths are the necessary component in receiving the inheritance.  Our inheritance of the Kingdom is right now in this time, unless we're short-circuiting our reception of it by continuing in the very things that St. Paul warns us are the very things that lock us out.  Our inheritance of the Kingdom is right now in this time, plus our inheritance of the King when He returns.  The Lord doesn't put off until tomorrow what we can have today, otherwise Prodigal Sons would be impossible when their unrest unfortunately leads them to the pig pen.  But they did have something to spend along the way!  I've already highlighted what the Bible has to say about the rapture with this article from N.T. Wright.

The problem isn't with the resurrection, but with the belief created by rapture mania that there's something that we're yet waiting for before we reign with Christ.  Hope deferred makes the spirit sick, as Proverbs says.  And like a lot of other folks, I got very sick from that kind of teaching.  It gave me an absentee Dad rather than an ever-Present Father that was both my comfort and chastisement; my riches and my self discipline to spend where He says to spend.  Romans 5 says that through the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness we reign in life.  I wasn't reigning when I thought, "okay, any second now......any second now.....and then...."  Had it happened all of those years that I anticipated it, then my lot would have been with the Lake of Fire because that kind of teaching made me bury my talent over and over and over again, thinking "someday, so no time for investment of it right now."  No, you're the fullness of the Godhead Bodily right now if you've been washed by the Blood of Christ by having embraced His Lordship.  You're already complete in Him and Named after Him so that everything you say and do should be in the Name of Jesus.  You're already the head of all principality and power seated at His right hand in Christ.  Hid with God, yes, but each [and every] time there's a revelation of Jesus Christ there's a revelation of you, yourself.  But, He's still coming and we are awaiting a New Heavens and a New Earth in which righteousness alone reigns.

In the meantime, our lives are to be about getting fuller and fuller of the Word of Christ, doing and saying everything in the Name of Jesus, and being cultural change.  We're not only supposed to bring about a New Reformation, but a New Renaissance:  a changed way of thinking in every area of life with Kingdom principles interpreting everything that we read in print, whether from the media, the ancient and modern classics, how to do our jobs with which we're refilling our bag of seed to sow since we're supposed to make a giving rather than a living, etc.  This world is ours to change.  The prince of this world is cast out.  He came but he found nothing in Christ.  And through our having been redeemed by Precious Blood we're the same.  Satan finds nothing in us, and he's still cast out in the Name of Jesus.  All we are, are enforcers.  We occupy until He comes.  The Word calls us an occupational force.  All we're doing is tending the field.  All things are finished, but we see not yet all things under His feet in the way that they shall be under His feet, although they're all already under His feet from His position of power and authority.  We see Jesus Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor that He by the grace of God should taste death for all except for God.  He's the author and finisher of faith that moves these mountains rather than any eschatological ones.  We're not supposed to wait before we reign.  There's further and further levels of reign that'll belong to those that have patiently won every prize in this life.  It's both here and now and then and there.  When He comes, He will find faith in the earth! :cloud9:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, Martin, I agree, you can glean from anything.....I was sharing something that just hit me, and primarily referring to church hierarchies that have made those doctrines their sole bread and butter focus for years, to the extent of exalting them above HIM. I know you know what I mean, but I was just clarifying. Blessings to you....

[Pierac]

Hebrew understanding of the Spirit.

The Old Testament is the foundation of our Bibles, the first 75% of the book. George Ladd states in his book,  A Theology of the New Testament  "The ruach Yahweh (Spirit of the Lord) in the Old Testament is not a separate, distinct entity; it is God's power-the personal activity in God's will achieving a moral and religious objective. God's ruach is the source of all that is alive, of all physical life. The Spirit of God is the active principle that proceeds from God and gives life to the physical world (Genesis 2:7). It is also the source of religious concerns, raising up charismatic leaders, whether judges, prophets, or kings.  The ruach Yahweh (Spirit of God) is a term for the historic creative action of the one God which, though it defies logical analysis, is always God's action.

Dunn, in his book Christology in the Making adds, "The continuity of thought between Hebraic and Christian understanding of the Spirit is generally recognized. There can be little doubt that from the earliest stages of pre-Christian Judaism "spirit" (ruach) denoted  power - the awful, mysterious force of the wind (ruach), of the breath (ruach) of life, of ecstatic inspiration (induced by divine ruach) in particular, "Spirit of God" denotes effective divine power In other words, on this understanding, Spirit of God is in no sense distinct from God, but is simply the power of God, God himself acting powerfully in nature and upon men."

It makes a big difference to our Western minds at least - right at the start of the Bible, whether we translate "this Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters or "a wind [breath] from God swept over the face of the waters" (Gen 1:2). The first possibility conveys to our modern minds the impression that the Spirit is an individual in "his" own right.  Many Trinitarians read it that way.  The second possibility suggest that God's energetic and creative presence was active.

Psalms 139 expresses this Hebrew parallelism beautifully: "where can I go from Your Spirit?  Or where can I flee from Your presence?"  (v.7). Thus, the Spirit of God is a synonym for God's personal presence with us. N.H. Snaith in his book The Distinctive Ideas of the Old Testament explains, "The ruach-adonai [Spirit of the Lord] is the manifestation in human experience of the life-giving, energy-creating power of God.  And, The Spirit of the Lord is the medium through which God exerts his controlling power."  A brief look at a few more Old Testament verses will show this Hebrew parallelism, where the Spirit of God (Heb. ruach) can mean the breath, life, Spirit, presence, and most particularly - a word of Yahweh:  (Job 26:4) (Job 27:3-4) (Job 32-8) (2Sam.23:2) (Prov.1:23) and, Isa 40:7  The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the LORD blows on it; surely the people are grass. 8  The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

It is vital not to rush over this. Many other Old Testament examples could be cited to show that spirit and breath are interchangeable. The fact that the 'spirit' and 'breath' are translations of the same Hebrew and Greek words points to the root meaning of spirit as God's creative power, the energy behind his utterance.

Another world-renowned known Anglican,  J.I. Packer in his book Keep in Step with the Spirit (also a committed believer in the Trinity) acknowledges that the doctrine of the Holy Spirit's "distinct personhood is not expressed by the Old Testament writers."  So then, by what reason then do these learned commentators come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead?  They admit that they stepped outside the boundaries of the Old Testament. They would have us believe that it is a doctrine newly revealed only in the New Testament. The New Testament does not alter the Hebrew concept of "spirit" as we will now see. The distinguished Bible scholar N. H. Snaith states that: "The New Testament pneuma (spirit) is used in all the ways in which the Hebrew ruach ( breath, wind, spirit) is used.  It is used of the wind (John 3:8), of human breath, both ordinarily (2 Thessalonians 2:8) and of the breath which means life (Rev. 11:11).  It is used of the vital principle in man (Luke 8:55, etc.), as opposed to 'flesh.'" 

Luke writes concerning the Ministry of John the Baptist that: "It is he who will go as a forerunner before him and the Spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for Lord" (Luke 1:17).  The Virgin Mary is told that "[the] Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadowed you" (Luke 1:35).  And concerning the promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit the risen Jesus predicts that the disciples are to wait in Jerusalem where they "shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:18). In these three Lukan passages we observe the interplay of the concepts of "power" and "spirit" precisely as found in the Old Testament.

This Hebrew concept is further seen in the famous passage where the apostle Paul burst out in praise to God.  He does this by quoting from Elijah 40:13: "Oh, the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and unfathomable His ways! [Now his Old Testament quotation] For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became his counselor?" (Rom.11:33-34) But when we compare his source in Isaiah we note that Paul has changed it slightly.  Isaiah actually wrote, "Who has directed the spirit of the Lord, or as His counselor has informed him?"

What we see here is a typical Hebrew understanding: To have the mind of the Lord is to be directed by the Spirit.  There are many New Testament examples of this interplay between "mind" and "spirit."  In Philippians 2, Paul wants the Christian to be "of the same mind," which is to be "united in spirit, intent on one purpose"(v.2).  On a personal level, how may I know that I am filled with the Holy Spirit?  The answer is when I have the mind of God, the attitude that He has, the values that his word and espouses and above all the truth which it teaches!

Another passage of interest in this vein is 1 Corinthians 2:10-12.
1Co 2:10  these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who [Greek neuter "which"] is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. Here "the spirit of the man which is in him" is paralleled with "the Spirit of God" which is from God. It is quite clear that a person's spirit is not a separate person from himself, but is rather his/her own mind and inner thoughts. Just so, "the Spirit of God" refers to God's inner and personal centre, His mind and word, even His self-consciousness.

Spirit = Power = Mind = Presence = Breath = Wind = Word

It is quite evident that in the apostle's mind to be filled with the spirit is precisely the same thing as letting the word (teaching, message) of Christ direct our lives. This is simply to say that in John chapters 14 to 16, "the Spirit" that will come to help the apostles will be the post-resurrection revelation of Christ's message directed by the risen Christ to the world through the apostles.

The acid test as to whether I have "Jesus in my heart" is whether I have his words informing and empowering my life. If his Gospel-word is the motivating principle in my life, then I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me. Indeed, I have the Father and the Son. Hence Paul's vigorous warning that if anyone fails to demonstrate the presence of the words of Christ in his life, he is  devoid of understanding (1 Tim 6:3). I am firmly convinced that the Scriptures are harmonious concerning the Spirit of God as being a power and word and mind of God in action. The Trinitarian assertion that the Holy Spirit is God himself is surely impossible to maintain when we note that nowhere in the Scripture is the Holy Spirit prayed to or worshiped. At the end of the last book of the Bible when the redeemed saints are in the presence of God and of Jesus Christ in glory it is not a strange omission that the third member of the Godhead has no seat of authority on the final throne?


Paul

[Taffy]

....... primarily referring to church hierarchies that have made those doctrines their sole bread and butter focus for years, to the extent of exalting them above HIM.

Yup.... :icon_flower:

[crowbar]

I've noticed alot of people who post here write often that their understanding is "spiritual" rather than "natural."

But in reality, the "spiritual" is just another word for "figurative." You are turning something Jesus said as a figure of speech and turning it into another new and different figure of speech. It's not spiritual, it's unbelief.

What I find interesting is that when Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are brought up people dance all around those passages and say they should be taken spiritually. In other words, the tares stand for our flesh and the wheat for us as well. Lightning isn't really lightning and Christ's return isn't really Christ's return.

So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: God saving all mankind isn't really God saving all mankind. Let's just spiritualize or figuratise that too.

Was it the spirit that inspired you to post this?  It feels as though you're only content when you feel you've clipped the wings of those who either are flying, or wanting to.  Is that what the purpose of Scripture is to be used for?  I'm not seeing the benefit of your intent.

[Cardinal]

Spirit = Power = Mind = Presence = Breath = Wind = Word

For brevity, I'd say this sums it up nicely. I'd like to add a couple of things that came to mind as I was reading this. The Word is literally that Spirit, and the Word that is written down is the composite nature expressed of the Word that is Spirit. The Word that was "in the beginning", is Spirit.

And two, this was something the Lord spoke to me when I first came to Him, that ties in with this. I asked Him why it is we get the "goose bumps" when He quickens something to us, and He said, "It's my shadow." He is awesome beyond words. Blessings...

[Taffy]

Spirit = Power = Mind = Presence = Breath = Wind = Word

For brevity, I'd say this sums it up nicely. I'd like to add a couple of things that came to mind as I was reading this. The Word is literally that Spirit, and the Word that is written down is the composite nature expressed of the Word that is Spirit.

And two, this was something the Lord spoke to me when I first came to Him, that ties in with this. I asked Him why it is we get the "goose bumps" when He quickens something to us, and He said, "It's my shadow." He is awesome beyond words. Blessings...

Caught my eye too CaRD...
Could add,IN THE positive sense, Voice, Mouth, Lips ,Tongue , mist , .....they all relay LIFE

[martincisneros]

I don't want to see the thread accidentally derailed into a Trinitarian/Oneness/Modalism discussion.  I don't believe that that was Paul's intent in having posted what he posted, but to simply comment on what's spirit(ual) since the thread is called "natural and spiritual."  What Paul brought up does bring a verse to mind that's very important to bare in mind with everything that's been said thus far in every post. 

This isn't an observation, criticism, cheap shot or anything like that, and I'm not directing it at anyone.   This is simply a clarification that the Bible does say this in one of the least studied books of the New Testament:

2John 9:
9 Everyone who is taking the lead and not remaining in the teaching of Christ has not God. He who is remaining in the teaching, this one has the Father as well as the Son. (Concordant)

Every one that taketh a lead, and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, hath not, God: he that abideth in the teaching, the same, hath, both the Father and the Son. (Rotherham's)

every one who is transgressing, and is not remaining in the teaching of the Christ, hath not God; he who is remaining in the teaching of the Christ, this one hath both the Father and the Son; (Young's)

Whosoever goes forward and abides not in the doctrine of the Christ has not God. He that abides in the doctrine, *he* has both the Father and the Son. (Darby Translation)

Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God: (Wesley's New Testament)

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (NKJV)

Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. (NASB)

The Bible teaches taking the lead when you're sufficiently advanced, have proven character, have the heart, and have the calling and the Holy Spirit's empowering.  The sense of the verse above is actually "wandering away" from what should be your basics.  The New American Standard (NASB), ironically, is probably the better translation 'cause Hebrews 5:12-14, the first few verses of Hebrews 6, Ephesians 4, and numerous other passages teach pressing on towards maturity.

I've been spending a lot of personal time with this verse as I've been personally (i.e. in my personal life more than on the boards) re-evaluating the content of my message verses the method of delivery and how to be the most understood.  Some get in deep trouble by saying "cultural relevance" when their intent is "being understood" by a generation that wasn't raised on Elizabethan English (i.e. KJV) rather than adulterating their message, but that doesn't always come across with clarity, and so the charges of worldliness, being shipwrecked, sharing Christianity-lite, etc., abound when method of delivery is being re-evaluated by anyone.

Those of us that would fulfill what God's told us to do in conveying this message to the nations have three things to juggle: staying well grounded, staying abundantly clear in your presentation baring in mind the communication style of your audience, and pressing on towards perfection while still having it together with tailoring the message to your hearers.  Had Paul walked up to Mars Hill in Acts 17 and tried to teach in the Scriptural "to the letter" style that he did in Acts 13, then they'd of understood him even less than they did and it would have been his bad rather than theirs.  He'd of won fewer disciples than he won that day.  Remaining Scripturally rigid in our presentation style inevitably involves a Rabbinical presentation, otherwise all of us have our [evolving] ways of saying things. 

Therefore, a pattern of sound words isn't so much sticking to how you'd express things with a particular translation, but being solid in the truth so that no matter how you ever wind up having to share your message, you've never departed from the principles of your message, your system of understanding it's unfolding timing, etc., etc., though you may someday quote heathen poets like Paul did in Acts 17 and would therefore [to any Judaizer present that day] sound like a heathen rather than having rigidly maintained an [in letter only] pattern of sound words.

[Taffy]

amen my favorite saying   Yeah because if you look at it even with Mary when its spoken to her about her soul (singular) being pierced so THAT the hearts of MANY (plural) would be revealed and Him neing a sign that would be spoken against was spiritual right here in this picture because HER and THEM and the sign itself is shown as one in that regard, same with being made of a woman under the law, it speaks of children under a the tutor, it speaks of "to us a child is born and a son is given" and these too are spiritual truths as those led by the Spirit are the Sons of God but Paul speaks of Himself as a child understanding as one, and being ad little children to labor among until Christ is formed in us and we become no more children but Sons etc etc. The virgin type is also applied concerning our own being presented as a chaste virgin to Christ but more after a mind not corrupted from the very simplicity in Christ. Even the freind of the bridegroom who rejoices to hear His voice and his joy being made full can be seen as the oneness of following after Christ in us.

Even the star that went before them to lead them to where he is at, comes to a particular house (and we are His house) over which He is and is named the morning star and even the disciples were compared to a woman bring forth a man child and the joy associated with seeing the star, and rejoicing in Him and the joy that comes to us (as Peter speaks of) in regards to receiving the end of our faith, even the very salvation of their souls.

ya Flowing there Fire...Could take this a few other places too...egh :icon_flower:

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.  :Sparkletooth:

:HeartThrob: