Can you explain?

[Molly]

What I understand is God became human (Adam man, homo sapien), died, raised from dead as NEW man (Christ the Lord from heaven, homo novae) something God already, and is entering into Divinity, something to be finished when God becomes all in all; and that He is including us, "...members of His body, bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh," (Eph 5) something to be also finished when God is all in all.  This is a kind of over simplification.

I believe this to be the case. God became human in the first Adam and is revealing His glory in us as we are being raised from the realm of death/darkness into a new man.

So are you guys saying Adam was God?

[Roy Monis]

Hi! SOtW

Your quote brother and quite correct.   

What remains, Jesus did not come from our earthly father, Adam. Jesus came from His Heavenly Father, God. That makes Him completely different than anything ever before or after Him. Whether Jesus was created or not is not really an issue when we understand this. Jesus did not come from the dust of the earth therefore since He was not from dust, to dust did He not return. That is why Jesus could not be created, but begotten. Jesus was God and being that He was God, He could not be created, only born.

The body that Jesus occupied was not of the dust of the earth as ours are, we are told that it was specially prepared from above; "Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. "Then I said, 'Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.' " (Heb.10:5-7).

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Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Here is an article that explains what God is. The thing most people get confused with is Jesus being referred to as God but Jesus Himself called the Jew's God also (John 10:34) "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said Ye, are God's"?  
Does that make the Jew's God the Father? No, neither does calling Jesus God make Him God the Father. There is ONE God the Father and there is ONE Lord Jesus Christ which is also referred to as God. Why? because He is God the Father's Son.

Just What is God
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess039.htm

CHB

Hi! CHB

Correction brother! Your quote;

There is ONE God the Father and there is ONE Lord Jesus Christ which is also referred to as God. Why? because He is God the Father's Son.

Not just referred to as God!  HE IS GOD! "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18)

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Roy    UK

[Roy Monis]

There is no lie, when I say He is a man and that doesn't mean He was not God. When God became a man, that is what He became. That is why He did not pray to Himself even though He is from Heaven, but to the only God in Heaven, His Father because that is where He came from.

What remains, Jesus did not come from our earthly father, Adam. Jesus came from His Heavenly Father, God. That makes Him completely different than anything ever before or after Him. Whether Jesus was created or not is not really an issue when we understand this. Jesus did not come from the dust of the earth therefore since He was not from dust, to dust did He not return. That is why Jesus could not be created, but begotten. Jesus was God and being that He was God, He could not be created, only born.

This is the flaw of Pierac's position. He is unable to see it because of the same reason you could not see what you saw while under a particular position.

Okay, I think I understand what you're saying, but let me be absolutely sure.  You're proposing that the Christ was God but once he became human (Jesus), he was no longer God? 

 

Hi! Pleroo

No brother, wrong! Jesus Christ was Christ/Jehovah/Word/God in the flesh, not of the dust of the earth like ours but a heavenly body specially prepared for Him. "....who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."  (Phil.2:6-8).

He is very much God and very much man at the same time.

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Roy   UK

[Pleroo]

Hi! CHB

Correction brother! Your quote;

There is ONE God the Father and there is ONE Lord Jesus Christ which is also referred to as God. Why? because He is God the Father's Son.

Not just referred to as God!  HE IS GOD! "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18)

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy    UK

From what I've read, there is indication that there was a corruption of the text at John 1:18 which originated in the Alexandrian manuscripts.  Other manuscripts say "only begotten Son" not "only begotten God".  And that fits with the rest of John's gospel, since he always refers to Jesus either as the "begotten Son", or "begotten of the Father", and never anywhere else as "only begotten God".

[Pleroo]

Hi! Pleroo

No brother, wrong! Jesus Christ was Christ/Jehovah/Word/God in the flesh, not of the dust of the earth like ours but a heavenly body specially prepared for Him. "....who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."  (Phil.2:6-8).

He is very much God and very much man at the same time.

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK

Except that that passage would seem to indicate the exact opposite of what you're saying.  He emptied himself, to the point where he could die.  Can God die? 

[Roy Monis]

Yes, and what is in the bosom of the Father?  Jesus!

The heart is in the bosom.

If Jesus being in the bosom of the Father makes Him the Father, would that make the beggar in Luke 16 Abraham? (Luke 16:22)

CHB

Hi! CHB

What does bosom mean? Does it not mean a close intimate relationship? Like husband and wife, father and son/daughter or mother and son/daughter. In like manner the Son whom we are told was in the very beginning with the Father had the same close intimate relationship with His Son. That doesn't make the Son/Jesus the Father. They are two separate entities with identical character traits which makes them One. But the Son by virtue of being the Son and receiving all power and authority from the Father is subject to the Father.

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Roy   UK

[Pierac]

Will somebody please explain this to me?  Why it has to be this way?  This makes my head spin.

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man [Adam] came death, by man [Adam] came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man [Adam] came death, by man [Jesus] came also the resurrection of the dead.


by = dia

Dia =  "On account of"  "Because of"

[Roy Monis]

Yes, CHB, that's from Psalm 82--"gods"--small g.

There are many gods and many lords. Why is that word even used if there is only ONE God? (1Cor.8:5)

(Psalms 86:8) Among the gods there is none like unto thee, OLord.

Even though there are many gods the Father is the one above all the other gods, just like your Father is the head of your household.

To understand God look at the creation and how it operates.

CHB

Hi!  CHB

Those many gods you mention are idols, man made creations, which some are trying to reduce Jesus Christ to. Baal of the OT is an example, people have what they call lucky charms and such, these are all idols. Holding on to the idea of the Babylonian belief that man possesses a free-will independent of God's preordained will is an idol of the heart. Everything in the spiritual world that you believe in other than God and His Word are idols. Nothing occurs that is not caused by God/Father. He is the cause of every effect that we assume we done of our own volition.

All is of God.

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Roy   UK

[Craig]

He is very much God and very much man at the same time.
Roy   UK

Hey Roy, you are going to have clarify what you mean by this. Do you believe, while Jesus was born to us, that during those 33 years, He was actually omnipotent and omniscient? Or that He was God who became a man and lived like a man and like a man in every way but did not sin? In other words, by the very fact Jesus is God, by the fact He was God.

[Roy Monis]

But there is only one at the top--one King, one God, one LORD

Yes, and that is God the Father. Jesus said "my Father is greater than I". Could Jesus be greater than Himself?

CHB
[/quote/]


Hi! CHB

The Father/God is Sovereign God Almighty, Jesus/Christ/The Word of God is King of kings and Lord of lords. All the chosen/elect who make it to the first resurrection will be kings, princes, priests, judges etc.etc  "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." (Rev.20:5-6). All the rest will come through the consuming fire of God in the second resurrection will be children of God, gods little g . Not to be confused with the man made idols of the world which is no more.

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Roy   UK

[Pierac]

He was in the beginning with God, this is the Word that you say is the logos. Who pray is the begotten God in the bosom of the Father?

Be real!

Roy   UK

Roy, God has no Beginning, so even being with God at the beginning (Genesis) creation does not make one God. The Angels were present too, and no one claims they are God! In fact God even used the term "us" when speaking to them. Let "US" make man in our own image. So are you going to add the Angels to the God head? 

God =  has NO beginning!

Begotten =  has a beginning!

Begotten God = Oxymoron.

It is a well contested variant reading, and one that would not be accepted in any intelligent field of study except Theology. It's the same as saying, "Putting a square peg into a round hole." 

I can't make it any clearer, You can't be the one true GOD if your begotten, only a small "g"  god by appointment. Just like the scriptures say...

He was appointed heir...

My chosen one! ...

He was commanded...

He learned obediance...

He was given...

John 8:40  "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man  who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.  

Roy, why would Jesus who you claim is fully God and fully man need to hear the truth from God?   Oxymoron?

Roy, I didn't start with my present belief, I once believed in the trinity like you, just like I once believe in Hell.  I have move on. The Trinity is taught by Man.  No one could come to it's conclusion by only reading the Bible. This is why it took hundreds of years to develop. It developed among men! Men who were willing to kill other Christians who disagreed with their personal view of it, and this is how it was shaped

When Christianity started spreading, the leaders of the churches were now Gentiles who had converted to Christianity. These people, for the most part, had been educated in Greek philosophies in their schools and universities. As educated persons, they of course wanted to find a place for their new religious beliefs within the philosophical framework they had already acquired. So when they read Hebrew Scriptures, they could not help injecting Greek philosophical meanings into them.

The Encyclopedia Britannica says concerning Christian Platonist:

"They did not believe that truth could conflict with truth and were confident that all that was rationally certain in Platonic speculation would prove to be in perfect accordance with the Christian revelation. Their unhistorical approach and unscholarly methods of exegesis of texts, both pagan and Christian, facilitated this confidence."

There was also the felt need of some Christians with Greek philosophical training to express Christianity in those terms, both for their own intellectual satisfaction and in order to convert educated pagans.

What is needed today is to remove all the Greek influence from what is called modern day Christianity, and return to the Christianity that was preached by Jesus and his Apostles.

The Council of Nicaea, in 325 AD., made "Jesus of the same substance as God." This is not the Trinitarian doctrine we know of today, but it was a start. Fifty-six years later, at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD., the Holy Spirit was added to the formula, bringing to life the modern day Trinity. One can easily see that even at Nicaea the Trinity was not an established doctrine by the absence of the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians will argue that the belief in a triune God was there from the Apostles, and that it was formalized as dogma at Nicaea and Constantinople. But the fact is that the New Testament does not anywhere teach the doctrine of the Trinity. The Doctrine of the Trinity, was not an established doctrine from Apostolic times, but a slowly developing idea that took over three hundred years to formalize.


325 AD - Constantine convenes the Council of Nicaea in order to develop a statement of faith that can unify the church. The Nicene Creed is written, declaring that "the Father and the Son are of the same substance" (homoousios). Emperor Constantine who was also the high priest of the pagan religion of the Unconquered Sun presided over this council. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council. "of one substance with the Father."

The American Academic Encyclopedia states:

"Although this was not Constantine's first attempt to reconcile factions in Christianity, it was the first time he had used the imperial office to IMPOSE a settlement."

At the end of this council, Constantine sided with Athanasius over Arius and exiled Arius to Illyria.

328 AD - Athanasius becomes bishop of Alexandria.

328 AD - Constantine recalls Arius from Illyria.

335 AD - Constantine now sides with Arius and exiles Athanasius to Trier.

337 AD - A new emperor, Contantius, orders the return of Athanasius to Alexandria.

339 AD - Athanasius flees Alexandria in anticipation of being expelled. 

341 AD - Two councils are held in Antioch this year. During this council, the First, Second, and Third Arian Confessions are written, thereby beginning the attempt to produce a formal doctrine of faith to oppose the Nicene Creed.

343 AD - At the Council of Sardica, Eastern Bishops demand the removal of Athanasius.

346 AD - Athanasius is restored to Alexandria.

351 AD - A second anti - Nicene council is held in Sirmium.

353 AD - A council is held at Aries during Autumn that is directed against Athanasius.

355 AD - A council is held in Milan. Athanasius is again condemned.

356 AD - Athanasius is deposed on February 8th, beginning his third exile.

357 AD - Third Council of Sirmium is convened. Both homoousios and homoiousios are avoided as unbiblical, and it is agreed that the Father is greater than His subordinate Son[/u].

359 AD - The Synod of Seleucia is held which affirms that Christ is "like the Father," It does not however, specify how the Son is like the Father.

361 AD - A council is held in Antioch to affirm Arius' positions.

380 AD - Emperor Theodosius the Great declares Christianity the official state religion of the empire.

381 AD - The First Council of Constantinople is held to review the controversy since Nicaea. Emperor Theodosius the Great establishes the creed of Nicaea as the standard for his realm. The Nicene Creed is re-evaluated and accepted with the addition of clauses on the Holy Spirit and other matters. (History of Arian Controversy)

In 380 AD Emperor Thedosius declares Christianity the state religion. One can come to the conclusion that whichever way Theodosius favors, is the way in which it is going to end. This is exactly what happened next. In 381 AD the struggle was finally ended by the current emperor, Theodosius the Great, who favored the Nicene position. Just like at Nicaea, the EMPEROR again decided it. The emperors were dictating the theology of the church. The big difference now was that there was not going to be any more changing sides. It was now the state religion. You cannot make Christianity the state religion and then change its beliefs every few years, it would undermine its credibility as the true faith. The Trinity was now the orthodox position, and the state was willing to back it up. Debates however, would continue for years to come.

[Molly]

Pierac--

The second Adam, Jesus, was the Lord from heaven.

What meaning does this have for you?

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Brother SOtW

I don't understand this quote of yours;

There is no lie, when I say He is a man and that doesn't mean He was not God. When God became a man, that is what He became. That is why He did not pray to Himself even though He is from Heaven, but to the only God in Heaven, His Father because that is where the Son came from.

You say God became man. The man I presume is Jesus and Jesus is the Word/the Son of God. So what has that to do with the Father, He is still in heaven not on earth. Mary conceived the Word/Christ/Son of God in the body of Jesus By the Father's Spirit. "But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." (Matt.1:20). So if I understand the Scriptures correctly it is Jesus/Christ/Son of God who is praying to the Father. Yes, His own Son in the form of man to accomplish His Father's will and die for the salvation of all mankind. It is He, fully man and fully God who has divested Himself of His right to Deity, who is praying to His Father/God on our behalf. Otherwise how can Jesus claim to be the Son of God?

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Roy    UK

[Roy Monis]

Okay, I think I understand what you're saying, but let me be absolutely sure.  You're proposing that the Christ was God but once he became human (Jesus), he was no longer God? 

Right. That is what Scripture says. He became a man, in order that He make all mankind Children of God. So when He returns to God, God will be all in all because we will be with Him.

Okay, thanks.  Then let me have you clarify this for me, if you don't mind.

You said:

There is no lie, when I say He is a man and that doesn't mean He was not God. When God became a man, that is what He became. That is why He did not pray to Himself even though He is from Heaven, but to the only God in Heaven, His Father because that is where He came from.

You said He (Jesus, God become man) did not pray to Himself (God, the Father in heaven), indicating that prior to Jesus' birth, he and the Father were one in the same, right?

But John 1:1 says that Jesus was the Word and the Word was WITH God (the Father in heaven).  Even before Jesus' birth he is described as being WITH God, not actually being God (the Father).

How do you reconcile that?

Thanks for your patience.

Hi! Pleroo

That's absolutely right and I've been saying that over the past 450 odd replies, as Isaiah said "Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?  (Isa.53:1).

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Roy   UK

[Pierac]

Pierac--

The second Adam, Jesus, was the Lord from heaven.

What meaning does this have for you?

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Hi Molly,

1Corinthians 15:35 - 58 is speaking concerning the Resurrection Body .

35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"...

1Co 15:45  Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

1Co 15:48  Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly. (us)

The source is always God, Adam became a living being just as Jesus became a life giving spirit.  Note it does not read Adam "was" a living being or Jesus  "was"  a life giving Spirit,  but that they became, and the source of course is God.

God is our Father and Jesus' Father, Jesus is God's Son and our brother.  When we are raised, we will be like Him (Jesus) our brother.  (Jesus is our brother not our God.)

Paul

[Molly]

But that's not what it says, Pierac--

It says the second [Adam]--that is, Jesus-- IS the Lord from heaven.

How is he the Lord from heaven?

[CHB]

Yes, CHB, that's from Psalm 82--"gods"--small g.

There are many gods and many lords. Why is that word even used if there is only ONE God? (1Cor.8:5)

(Psalms 86:8) Among the gods there is none like unto thee, OLord.

Even though there are many gods the Father is the one above all the other gods, just like your Father is the head of your household.

To understand God look at the creation and how it operates.

CHB

Hi!  CHB

Those many gods you mention are idols, man made creations, which some are trying to reduce Jesus Christ to. Baal of the OT is an example, people have what they call lucky charms and such, these are all idols. Holding on to the idea of the Babylonian belief that man possesses a free-will independent of God's preordained will is an idol of the heart. Everything in the spiritual world that you believe in other than God and His Word are idols. Nothing occurs that is not caused by God/Father. He is the cause of every effect that we assume we done of our own volition.

All is of God.

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)
Roy   UK

I tried for a few hours to get back on the forum yesterday evening but finally gave up and went to bed. I see the thread has kept moving I don't know where to start.

Roy, I never said man had a free will, I am with you on "all is of God". That is why we are all gods, even the idols because they wouldn't exist without God letting them exist. Nothing exist outside of God.  I do believe Jesus was our creator but the Father was Jesus's creator.

We are all sons of God, therefore we are gods just like Jesus called the Jew's gods because he knew they were sons of God. Jesus said why do you want to kill me for saying I am the Son of God when I Myself called you gods.

If your Father was a Smith all of His children would be Smith's, right?
Read the article, "Just What is God". None of us are our own Father like some are trying to say about Jesus. That reminds me of a song "I,m My Own Grandpa". :laughing7:

If Jesus was His own Father why did Paul say that the head of Christ was God?

If Jesus came FROM God and returned to God. If Jesus prayed to the Father honoured the Father. If Jesus recieved his instructions from the Father. Jesus said "the Father sent me. Jesus said "ye have neither heard His  {Father} voice at any time, nor seen his shape. Lots of people saw Jesus and heard his voice. Jesus said, "I am come in my Father's name". Jesus said "all that the Fathergiveth me" If Jesus was the Father why the need to give him anything? If Jesus was the Father why did he say "of mine own self I can do nothing"?

For what it's worth, here is how I see the whole thing in as few words as possible.

There was God the Father who has no beginning or end, who bore or created God the Son, who later became Jesus. God the Son, before he became Jesus was the beginning of the Father's creation. God the Son, before he became Jesus, was the creator of all things by the power of the Father. God the Son emptied Himself, became human and died for the world. He did all of this by the power of God the Father, and he says this Himself many many times, by His own words this is proven.

CHB

CHB  

[Pierac]

But that's not what it says, Pierac--

It says the second [Adam]--that is, Jesus-- IS the Lord from heaven.

How is he the Lord from heaven?

The same as you and I are from heaven...

1Co 15:48  Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly.

Let's see how the scriptures speak of such things...

Jewish "Ideal" Preexistence

In the English language, and certainly the way young people speak, we often speak about something that happened in the past as though it is happening in the present. For instance, a witness to a bank robbery might say, "And here I am standing in line minding my own business, when bursting through the door comes as a hooded bank robber. He tells us all to get on the floor. He waves his gun around and threatens us. Then he goes up to the teller and yells, 'Give me the money!'" We understand the events described occurred in the past, even though the narrative is in the present. Speaking of past events in the present is a peculiarity of the English language.

Most languages have peculiarities. The Hebrew mind and language has a peculiarity that English speakers are not accustomed to. They do the opposite of what I have just described. They often use the past tense or the present tense to speak of events yet future. The reason is that the Jews believed that whatever was determined in the mind of God existed before it came to be in history. God is the God who calls the things which do not exist as (already) existing (Rom. 4:17). God promised Abraham that He would give him the promised land and that he would be the father of many descendents. So sure is the fulfillment that sometimes the predictive language is in the past tense, as though it were already accomplished: "To your descendents I "have given" this land" (Gen 15:18). It came to be a common feature of Hebrew thinking that whatever God had decreed already preexisted (in plan and purpose) before it materialized on earth. "When the Jews wished to designate something as predestined, he spoke of it as already existing in heaven.

Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ "was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times" for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20). This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth, because in the same chapter we find that Christians have also been in the "foreknowledge of God the Father" (1Pet. 1:2). The words "foreknowledge" and "foreknown," noun and verb, are exactly alike. Peter uses precisely the same idea to refer to both Christians and Jesus. Christians do not preexisted heaven before our birth on earth nor did Jesus.

Similarly, the Bible speaks of Jesus as the Lamb of God who was crucified before the world began (Rev.13:8). Every Bible reader of course knows that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate in Palestine in the first century. But God ordained his crucifixion to happen before he even created the universe. Therefore, in God's mind, and in the Hebrew understanding, that which came to be had already been. The prophetic future was spoken of in the past tense. What God has decreed, He says is as good as done.

In John 17, Jesus prays just before his arrest in the garden, "I glorify You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given me to do. And now, glorify me together with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (v.4-5) If ever there was a statement that proved the personal preexistence of Jesus with the Father in heaven before he came to earth, surely this is it. Once again, we must caution against haste, for "In Biblical ways of speaking and thinking one may 'have' something which is promised in God's plan before one actually has its." We have already seen this principle in operation, where God's plan of promises are spoken in the "prophetic past tense." God promised Abraham, "I have given you this land." God says to Christians, "You are seated with Christ in the heavenlies; you are already glorified (Eph. 2:6; Rom.8:30). We have these things already in the plan and purpose of God -- even though we do not (yet) have them! Scripture tells us that we have eternal life as a present possession, even though clearly we await the day of our entrance into the life of the Age to come, whether by resurrection for those already dead, or the rapture of the living, when Christ returns. God calls the things that are not as though they already exist (Rom. 4:17). Clearly, in Hebrew thinking, the glory which Jesus had "with" God before the world was, it is the glory that it was present in God's mind and purpose from the beginning.

When we examine the rest of Jesus' prayer, it becomes quite clear that the glory Jesus claimed to have had "with the father before the world was" is a glory in prospect. Jesus is using the peculiar Hebrew way of thinking and speaking by which the past tense is employed to speak of the future. To confirm this all we need to do is follow Jesus' prayer through. Jesus speaks as though he has already accomplished his work: he says I have "accomplished a work which you have gave me to do" (v.4). Quite obviously he has not actually finish the work because his crucifixion has not yet happened, and his cry from the cross, "It is finished," has not yet been uttered. Next, Jesus speaks as though the disciples have already fully glorified him (through their preaching ministry) even though the resurrection has not yet happened: he prays, "I have been glorified in them" (v.10). Jesus also says "I am no more in the world" (v.11) even though he clearly is still in the world. In his own mind, he is already, by faith in the father's promise, sitting in heaven having been resurrected. Jesus says he has already sent the disciples into the world to preach: he prays, "I have sent them into the world" (v.18), even though this did not fully happen until after the resurrection. Jesus prays for his disciples, and "for those also who[will] believed in me through their word" (v.20). That is, he prays for subsequent generations of Christians who will come to faith in Christ down the track. He prays that "the glory which You have given me I have given to them (v.22). He prays that all these believers "which you have given me" (the whole future community of faith) may behold my glory, which You have given me; for You did love [choose] me before the foundation of the world (v.24).

One day the Lord Jesus at his second coming will say to his own people, "Come, you who are blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:34). In Paul's language this hope is "laid up for you in heaven" which means it is in God's promise and plan and is certain of fulfillment (Col. 1:5). This hope is so certain that Paul can even speak of Christians as already glorified (Romans 8:29–30, noting the past tense). Indeed, this plan hatched in God's mind "according to His own purpose in grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9). Dunn, in his book, Christology in the Making p238 adds:  "The gift was purposed 'ages ago,' unless we are to take it that the actual giving and receiving, 'us' and 'Christ Jesus' were all alike preexistent." This hope of Christians entering into the age to come was "promised long ages ago" (Tit 1:2). Dunn continues p238. "Here it is even clearer that what is thought of as happening "ages ago" is God's promise; and it is that promise of eternal life which has been manifested.  Indeed, the text says it is his word that he has manifested - that is, not Christ the Logos, but the word of promise, fulfilled in Christ and offered now back in the kerygma [ message].  In other words, we are back where we started – Christ as the content of the word of preaching, the embodiment of the predetermined plan of salvation, the fulfillment of the divine purpose."

[Roy Monis]

But John 1:1 says that Jesus was the Word and the Word was WITH God (the Father in heaven).  Even before Jesus' birth he is described as being WITH God, not actually being God (the Father).

How do you reconcile that?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 is written the same way as Genesis 1:1 is written.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

It is a complete summary of both what was, and is and is to come in one sentence. It is what we like to say in the Screen play business, a Log Line.

Definition: Log Line
Answers the question: What is your story about?

So John 1:1 like Genesis 1:1, is the Log Line, it is telling us what this story is about.

John 1:1 is telling us both what was, and is and is to come. What Jesus was prior to becoming man, what he was when He was man and what He was after His death and resurrection.

Hi SOtW

Spot on!    1.... What He was         2.....What He is      3...What He will be                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                           V                                  V                              V                                                                                                       
                God the Son/Word              God/Word/man            God the Son/Word
                           
                            V                                  V                                 V 
                 
                  Back with Father              In flesh on earth           Back with the Father            

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)           
                             
Roy     UK

[Molly]

Don't forget.. the Word was God...Roy

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

Your quote;

CLV Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men.

Why should we accept the CLV with its IT heresy? If the KJV, NASV, and the InterLinear are all biased in what way is the CLV an exception? And why do you just give one verse to prove its authenticity "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."  (2Pet.1:20-21). Let us have a witness. So here it is now explain this to me. "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18).

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy    Uk

[willieH]

Hi! CHB

Correction brother! Your quote;

There is ONE God the Father and there is ONE Lord Jesus Christ which is also referred to as God. Why? because He is God the Father's Son.

Not just referred to as God!  HE IS GOD! "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18)

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy    UK

From what I've read, there is indication that there was a corruption of the text at John 1:18 which originated in the Alexandrian manuscripts.  Other manuscripts say "only begotten Son" not "only begotten God".  And that fits with the rest of John's gospel, since he always refers to Jesus either as the "begotten Son", or "begotten of the Father", and never anywhere else as "only begotten God".

Amen sister Pieroo!  Glad to see you back here at TM!

JESUS is a SON... a SON is an OFFSPRING...  Everyone noting Him as GOD in and of Himself, is clinging to TRADITION...

Over and again YHVH in the OT, noted HIMSELF ALONE as GOD... Plainly and repeatedly (especially in Isaiah 41:4 / 43:10-11 / 44:8 / 44:24 / 45:7 / 45:18 / 45:22 / 46:9)... using SINGULAR references to Himself, with I, me, mine, continuosly throughout the OT... and BLATANTLY/PLAINLY noting Himself as GOD ALONE...

BABYLON (the system of TRADITION), is that which makes the WORD, inert and powerless by its insistence of ITSELF (Matt 15:6 / Mk 7:13)

JESUS over and over noted that GOD is GOD as did His Apostles, ...and deferred His due GLORY to HIM... As did His Apostles...

Also, JESUS in His last WORDS, called out:  MY GOD, MY GOD, why hast THOU forsaken ME...  differentiating Himself from HIS GOD...

BABYLON's children shall argue against this... but the ELECT shall not succumb to their CONFUSED claims, and they each shall COME OUT from beneath the CONTROL of BABYLON, into the LIGHT of the ONLY GOD and FATHER of ALL... YHVH...

Which LIGHT is borne by HIS SON... JESUS CHRIST... 

PeacE...
...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Roy... :hithere:

This issue is a never ending "merry-go-round", but one that is VERY pertinent...

ONENESS is the TRUTH and destiny of MAN...

It is shown in marriage, what begins as ONE, then by GOD enacting NATURE becomes TWO.   Then when the SPIRIT of GOD comes upon them and brings them together, THEY again become ONE...

UNITY is the goal and MAJESTY of the SPIRITUAL...

The DIVIDED system and HOUSE of BABYLON shall not see this...

For when ALL are reconciled... ALL are become ONE...

It is our multiple destiny to become ONE... which is the permeation of YHVH... who ALONE is GOD, and Scripture states YHVH to be so...

That said...

Hi! Paul

Your quote;

CLV Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men.

Why should we accept the CLV with its IT heresy? If the KJV, NASV, and the InterLinear are all biased in what way is the CLV an exception? And why do you just give one verse to prove its authenticity "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."  (2Pet.1:20-21). Let us have a witness. So here it is now explain this to me. "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18).

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy    Uk

Hey Roy... He, she, or it, ...are pronouns which when assigned by translators VALIDLY, do so as CONTEXT denotes a platform that has previously identified the substitutional term... This context does not DO this... so concerning the LOGOS, ..."IT" is just as viable a platform as "HE"...

GOD is without "gender", YHVH is the Creator of GENDER... Male and female CREATED He GOD, them - Gen 1:27...

To demand or assign "CREATED gender" to GOD is to pull our Creator down to our LEVEL,  which is of FLESH... by equating YHVH to be subject to "fleshly" demands... such as noting GOD as HE, instead of as GOD, FATHER, or by name, ...YHVH...

YHVH created BOTH MALE & FEMALE within MAN as IS noted in Gen 1:27... and interestingly enough each HUMAN has BOTH Male and Female elements within...

Gen 1:27 should actually read:  So GOD created MAN in GOD's [not his] image, in the image of GOD created GOD [not he] Him, ...Male AND Female, CREATED GOD [not he] ...THEM.

That CHRIST was born male is due to the HOLINESS demands of a FIRST BORN Male OPENING the WOMB, (Luke 2:23 / Ex 13:2 / Numb 3:13) which is being purposed as HOLY unto YHVH ...set aside for a WORK which GOD has particularly PURPOSED,  ...and that MAN was first represented by a MASCULINE entity in ADAM... which was a NATURAL shadow of the SPIRITUAL to follow... and thusly, followed in MASCULINITY...

"MAN" is considered MALE and FEMALE... not just MALE...

LITERAL observation of verses such as 1 Tim 4:9-11 could note that WOMEN are saved by some other means other than GOD...

PeacE...
...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

[Pierac]

Roy, I do understandings my beliefs are hard for you, it's always difficult to over come the tradition of men, as we have done with the concept of hell.   Ok, here's your multiple witness


Here is what the scriptures shows the one true God sounds like...

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Phi 2:13  for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Psa 115:3  But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Pro 16:1 We humans make plans, but the LORD (yehōwāh) has the final word.

Now here is what an 'anointed' begotten Son of God sounds like...

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do: for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise" (John 5:19).

"I can of mine own self DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the father which has sent Me" (John 5:30).

"For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine Own will, but the will of Him that sent me"(John 6:38 ).

"For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He (God)   gave me commandment WHAT I should say, and WHAT I should speak" (John 12:49).

"He that loves Me not keeps not My sayings: and the word which ye hear is NOT MINE, but the Father's which sent Me" (John 14:24).

Mar 10:18  And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

It all matches with what Jesus says about Himself:

John 8:40  "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth,  which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through (dia) "the anointed one" (2 Cor.5:18 ).

It really does read "from God"  and "to Himself!"  But How?  "dia Christ"!   ("on account of"  "because of")

"For God... has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

Second witness that it is God.

"To the only God our Savior, through (dia) Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.  Amen" (Jude 25).

You see "to the only God our savior"  God is the one saving us through (dia) his Son,  but it is God doing the saving!

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief: When you shall make His soul an offering for sin..." (Isa. 53:10).

God said that He would "make" the soul of Jesus an offering for sin. So God is doing the "making," and it is God doing the saving, just like the verses testify above. With this knowledge you get a better picture of who Jesus is. He is the only begotten Son of God! The chosen one who was made an offering for sin, and the only way to the Father! There is no other way!

Jesus is our mediator, and Paul calls our risen mediator a man.

1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

God also tells us He is going to take this man (Jesus) [whom he has appointed], and at an appointed time judge the world in righteousness.

Act 17:30  "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,  31  because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man  whom he has appointed ; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

God also tells us in this verse He has provided proof Jesus was this man by raising him from the dead."