Can you explain?

[Craig]

To deduce something IMPOSSIBLE is to observe that it cannot be done or accomplished by FINITES... from a FINITE perspective...

Right, that is what I said earlier when I said,

The problem is understanding that God is not limited to cause and effect, God didn't leave heaven when He became a man and dwelt among us. For some reason this escapes people and they think that God works in the same sphere of power and knowledge that a man works and thinks.

Now...

GOD has never and will never LOWER Himself, even though He could do so if He should decide to...

You are reasoning as Finite when you say "God will never LOWER Himself even though He could do so if He should decide to." because He did and Jesus is His Name. Yes, God lowered Himself. Jesus is His Name.

There is no lie, when I say He is a man and that doesn't mean He was not God. When God became a man, that is what He became. That is why He did not pray to Himself even though He is from Heaven, but to the only God in Heaven, His Father because that is where the Son came from.

Very simple to understand and it no longer takes an infinite mind to recognize it. Flesh is born of flesh, and spirit was born of Spirit. The first man is dust and to dust he returns, and so are all who born of him. The second Man is Spirit and to Spirit he returns, and so are all those born of Him.

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
John 14:6a Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.

Jesus's origin is not dust like the rest of mankind. His Origin is God. His Origin is God, He was God made and manifest in the Flesh taking upon himself the image of mankind. God, the Infinite, considering equality to God something that could not be comprehended by man the finite empted Himself of His very nature of God and became a man and dwelt among us. So where as we are dust who must bear the image of God but know not God, God bears the image of mankind so that we may know Him. The conclusion is so that we may know God will be all in all, we in Him as He is in us.

[Molly]

Man--God has turned himself inside out to reconcile us to him and everyone is going---pffffft!

:mblush: :laughing7:

[Pleroo]

Okay, I think I understand what you're saying, but let me be absolutely sure.  You're proposing that the Christ was God but once he became human (Jesus), he was no longer God?  

Right. That is what Scripture says. He became a man, in order that He make all mankind Children of God. So when He returns to God, God will be all in all because we will be with Him.

Okay, thanks.  Then let me have you clarify this for me, if you don't mind.

You said:

There is no lie, when I say He is a man and that doesn't mean He was not God. When God became a man, that is what He became. That is why He did not pray to Himself even though He is from Heaven, but to the only God in Heaven, His Father because that is where He came from.

You said He (Jesus, God become man) did not pray to Himself (God, the Father in heaven), indicating that prior to Jesus' birth, he and the Father were one in the same, right?

But John 1:1 says that Jesus was the Word and the Word was WITH God (the Father in heaven).  Even before Jesus' birth he is described as being WITH God, not actually being God (the Father).

How do you reconcile that?

Thanks for your patience.

[Pleroo]

Here is an article that explains what God is. The thing most people get confused with is Jesus being referred to as God but Jesus Himself called the Jew's God also (John 10:34) "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said Ye, are God's"?  
Does that make the Jew's God the Father? No, neither does calling Jesus God make Him God the Father. There is ONE God the Father and there is ONE Lord Jesus Christ which is also referred to as God. Why? because He is God the Father's Son.

Just What is God
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess039.htm

CHB

I read the article.  If I were to say I accepted this as the truth (not anywhere near sure what I believe yet) would you mind answering a question for me?  How do we know, then, when the Bible is referring to the "head" God (the Father) and when it is referring to the "headquarters" God?   Or do we always know?

And, also, since this idea of a headquarters God, or a pluarlity of beings that made up God, is supposedly (I don't mean "supposedly" disparagingly, I'm just not convinced yet) based on what the Hebrew language inicates, why wouldn't that belief be the prevailing belief within the Jewish community?

[Pleroo]

willieH: Howdy sports fans... :hithere:

Would you believe that not long before you posted this I asked myself, "Where is Willie when you need him?"   :laughing7:  I was hoping you would weigh in on this thread, knowing that you had a different view than the Trinitarian view.

[Craig]

But John 1:1 says that Jesus was the Word and the Word was WITH God (the Father in heaven).  Even before Jesus' birth he is described as being WITH God, not actually being God (the Father).

How do you reconcile that?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 is written the same way as Genesis 1:1 is written.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

It is a complete summary of both what was, and is and is to come in one sentence. It is what we like to say in the Screen play business, a Log Line.

Definition: Log Line
Answers the question: What is your story about?

So John 1:1 like Genesis 1:1, is the Log Line, it is telling us what this story is about.

John 1:1 is telling us both what was, and is and is to come. What Jesus was prior to becoming man, what he was when He was man and what He was after His death and resurrection.

[Pierac]

I'm just a simple guy, please explain. What does "Only Begotten Son" mean in any language?

The the words means "one-of-a-kind" and is reserved for Jesus in the Johannine literature of the NT. While all Christians are children of God (τέκνα θεοῦ, tekna theou), Jesus is God's Son in a unique, one-of-a-kind sense. The word is used in this way in all its uses in the Gospel of John (Joh_1:14; Joh_1:18; Joh_3:16, and Joh_3:18).

A Son who has been with the Father from the very beginning? The Son who is God? That's what my Bible is saying to me. Are you saying it's a load of rubbish? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."  (Jn.1:1-3)

Roy, I already showed you, Your translation has added bias. You can thank the KJV translators for that!

CLV Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."

Now let's break it down this verse:  In the Beginning (Just before Genesis) God had a plan, will, or idea. It was present in his mind, and God's plan or will possessed all the attributes of God.

You must understand what it means to be God!  God is ETERNAL.  That which is without beginning or end! The word (Logos) was in the Beginning..

G746 beginning
αρχή
archē

Thayer Definition:
1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

God can not be "In the beginning" as God has no beginning.

FYI...

tn Grk  "in the bosom of" (an idiom for closeness or nearness; cf. L&N 34.18; BDAG 556 s.v. κόλπος 1).

And it doesn't say only begotten of creation, that's what Paul says. What the Bible says only begotten of the Father.

Webster Dictonary e-sword:
Begotten
BEGOT', BEGOT'TEN, pp. of get. Procreated; generated.

Yes, Roy Jesus was begotten.  Jesus has a beginning, as he was Procreated; generated; created.  GOD has no beginning.

Jesus, unlike you or I, was a very humble man and though He knew that He was the Creator of the universe and all things in it, He never entertained the thought of ever boasting about it, hence there is no mention of Him making such a claim.

Roy this is simply not true, Jesus tells us who the Creator of the universe is.

Jesus never claimed credit for the original Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth. Because He was in no doubt that the universe was God's handiwork.

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Remember Jesus has a God "Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3). Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6) 

Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (my Father) created until now, and never will be.

Jesus said "he" not "me"  or "we."  Jesus knew who created it all, because He came to reveal Him.

Paul

[Pierac]

But, Pierac, your arguments on John 1 are confusing to me.  At one point you're saying that the Word is just a concept, an idea and does not actually refer to the person, Jesus Christ, and that Jesus is simply a man whose existance began at physical birth.   At other times, you seem to be saying the opposite ... that, yes, the Word is Jesus and that proves he can't be God because He has a beginning whose existance began at or before creation.  Could you please clarify for me exactly what it is you're saying?

Ok, If your husband and yourself had a plan (Logos, or Word) to have a baby. Your baby would be that logos in the flesh the day he or she is born. Your child would always be your logos in the flesh, but would that make your baby the actual Logos you had within you? No.

Just look at some of the definitions of Logos beyond Word.


Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a
[/b]conception[/b] or idea (New American Bible  (footnote) & Vine's Expository Dictionary).

According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:

Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.

So Jesus is the Logos in the flesh but he's not the Logos, as the Logos is an "it"


Concordant Literal Version  John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God.  All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."

Hope this helps?
Paul

[Molly]

 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


--Col 1


All things were created by and for Jesus.




6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?


9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

--Hebrews 2

[Molly]

Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.

So Jesus is the Logos in the flesh but he's not the Logos, as the Logos is an "it"

How does this even make sense to you?

The Logos is an 'it'?

The mind of God is an 'it'?

The thoughts of God are 'it'?

The words of God are 'it'?

When God thinks and speaks--'it' is what happens--


3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

       -Gen 1'

[Pleroo]

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


--Col 1


All things were created by and for Jesus.




6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?


9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

--Hebrews 2

And Pierac, the Concordant version which you are using to say that the Word is an it, confirms that HE not IT was the one through whom all things came to being, right in John 1:

10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through Him, and the world knew Him not. 11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not.
12 Yet whoever obtained Him, to them He gives the right to become children of God, to those who are believing in His name,
13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God.

[Pierac]

What remains, Jesus did not come from our earthly father, Adam. Jesus came from His Heavenly Father, God. That makes Him completely different than anything ever before or after Him. Whether Jesus was created or not is not really an issue when we understand this. Jesus did not come from the dust of the earth therefore since He was not from dust, to dust did He not return. That is why Jesus could not be created, but begotten. Jesus was God and being that He was God, He could not be created, only born.

Craig, there is a flaw in your logic as begotten and created mean the same thing.


Webster:
Begotten
BEGOT', BEGOT'TEN, pp. of get. Procreated; generated.

Generated
GEN'ERATED, pp. Begotten; engendered; procreated; produced; formed.

There was a time the Son of God did not exist. 

[Molly]

There was a time the Son of God did not exist.

Maybe at a time when God's mind was a total blank, since Jesus is the Word of God. 

[Pierac]

Pleroo, Molly, are you reading my post? I already covered "by him" and "Through him"

Hi Pleroo,   :hihat:  On another forum a fellow who has the same beliefs as myself posted this below...  I though it might be helpful in understanding certain verses, that could very easily be taken the wrong way. BTW, Thanks for the P.M.'s    :thumbsup:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Speaks for itself.

He received a honest question in turn.

What's the main difference in "of whom" and "by whom" in the context of this passage?

Here is my reply, hopfully it will help explain certain verses that use "Through" (dia) and "by" (dia) in scripture...


Hello STP, The answer is in the little word "by"  better known in the Greek as "Dia"

G1223
διά
dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of: - account (4), after (2), afterward (1), always *(2), because (111), between *(1), briefly *(1), charge *(1), constantly (1), continually *(6), during (1), forever *(1), gives (1), means (3), over (1), presence (1), reason (40), sake (41), sakes (5), since (1), so then *(1), so *(1), therefore *(16), this reason *(1), this *(1), though (1), through (225), through the agency (1), through *(1), view (2), way (3), what (1), why (3), why *(27).

And the little word  "of"  better known in the Greek as ek

1537
εκ, εξ
ek  ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.


Dia is the "preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ.  Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan.  Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God's initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin.

Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: "yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, 'out from' ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, 'to' ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him" (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's "interior", so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". Both verses say that the source of "all things" is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah" is giving the preposition dia which means "through."

In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ... has blessed us... in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself" (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus" (Rom. 2:16).

"For God... has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.  Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through(dia) whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Just look at how the Message Bible words it...
1Co 8:6 They say--again, quite rightly--that there is only one God the Father, that everything comes from him, and that he wants us to live for him. Also, they say that there is only one Master--Jesus the Messiah--and that everything is for his sake, including us. Yes. It's true.

The Message Bible may be a little simplistic but you get the picture.

So always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son.  From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things."  In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion.  The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

So that is the difference between "of whom" and "by whom."

Paul

[Molly]

Pierac, --Regarding your word, 'dia'--

Why do you think the Father has to create all things through the Lord Jesus Christ?

I mean --he's God--why can't he circumvent Christ and create directly?

Why can't he create through something or someone else?

[Pierac]

There was a time the Son of God did not exist.

Maybe at a time when God's mind was a total blank, since Jesus is the Word of God. 

Then how many Gods do we have?

TWO GODS?
By Juan Baixeras

From the start of Judaism and later Christianity, the most famous aspect and unique characteristic of the two religions is the fact that they were, and still are monotheistic. Christianity is really the continuation of Judaism. Both religions believe in one, and only one unbegotten God, creator of the universe. There are no other gods in these two faiths.

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."

Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."
 
Isaiah 45:6 - "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."
 
No one will contest that to a Jew or a Christian, there is only one God. Anything else would simply be considered polytheism. The majority of Christianity believes in one God, but a God that is plural in makeup. There are three persons that constitute this one God. They are three, but yet, they are still all the one God. There is: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

In this paper we will be concerned primarily with Trinitarian Christianity's view of God. Specifically, God the Son.
We all know that God the Son has a Father (God the Father). But the question that must be asked and answered is: can God the Son have a God? Every pastor that I have ever asked this question to has always said "Of course not!" But is that the answer given in Scripture? No, on the contrary. As you will see, the prophesied Messiah in the Old Testament is said to have a God. Then you will see that Jesus the Messiah fulfills those prophesies because he most definitely has a God. If you come to the conclusion that Jesus has a God, then it might be time to rethink and research the Doctrine of the Trinity. Because if God the Son has a God, then there are TWO GODS!

To make this as simple as possible, I am not going to list the huge amount of Scriptures which have God (not "Father") and Jesus in the same sentence, or Scriptures that have God speaking to Jesus, or Jesus speaking to God. We will only be concerned with Scriptures that prove that Jesus has a God.


OLD TESTAMENT MESSIANIC PROPHESIES

Psalm 89:26-28 - "He (the Messiah) shall say of me. "You are my father, my God, my rock, my savior". And I will make him the firstborn."

Micah 5:3-4 - "He (the Messiah) shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the Majestic name of the LORD, his God."

Psalm 22:10-11 - "To you I was committed at birth. From my mother's womb you are my God."


NEW TESTAMENT

Jesus Speaking:
John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God." Note, this is a post resurrection verse, and Jesus has a God, So how many God's do we have?

Revelation 3:2 - "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."

Paul:

Ephesians 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 1:17 - "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."

2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Corinthians 11:31 - "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ knows, He who is blessed forever, that I do not lie."

Romans 15:6 - "that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Peter:

1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

John:

Revelation 1:6 - "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

When one reads the preceding verses, there is one thing that is a fact. That Jesus Christ has a God. Jesus speaks of his God, Peter Paul and John mention the God of Jesus Christ. Are they all mistaken? Are we to believe that all these verses are misprints? Are we to suppose that theologians several centuries after Christ knew more about Jesus than Jesus and his Apostles? There is no way around it. Jesus always did and does at this very moment have a God!

The New American Bible in a section discussing biblical revelation says,
 
"It is the very same God who reveals Himself in so many richly divergent ways on every page of the Scriptures. The God of Abraham and Moses and David is the God of Jesus of Nazareth."

How many God's are there?
Paul

[Pleroo]

Pleroo, Molly, are you reading my post? I already covered "by him" and "Through him"

Yes, I read that, and maybe I'm just really daft, but I don't understand what that has to do with what you and I were discussing.  I'm not denying that the creation was accomplished through the Son.  But you are saying that Jesus did not pre-exist as the Word, since the Word was not a who but a what (an IT).  Yet, in the Concordant version it says that the creation came into being BY the Word, and in verse 10 of that chapter in says that it came into being BY HIM.  That is my point, not whether or not the Son created anything, but that he existed as a WHO, not just as an idea or a plan or an IT. 

[Molly]

Then how many Gods do we have?
TWO GODS?

No, there aren't two Gods.

There is one God.

But our one God has many names.

He names himself as a description--YHWH

He names himself for people--The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

He names himself for events--the God of Bethel--El Bethel

But, his highest name is for his work of salvation--God's salvation--Y'shua


12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--Acts 4


Philippians 2:9
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,...




30 I and my Father are one.
--John 10

[Pierac]

Pierac, --Regarding your word, 'dia'--

Why do you think the Father has to create all things through the Lord Jesus Christ?

I mean --he's God--why can't he circumvent Christ and create directly?

Why can't he create through something or someone else?

Jesus did not exist when God created the universe.

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,


Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (my Father) created until now, and never will be.


Dia=  "On account of"  "Because of"


So Pleroo, read it as all things were created  not "by" or "through" BUT  "on account of"  Jesus.  Just like the simplistic Message Bible reads...

Message Bible 1Co 8:6  They say--again, quite rightly--that there is only one God the Father, that everything comes from him, and that he wants us to live for him. Also, they say that there is only one Master--Jesus the Messiah--and that everything is for his sake, including us. Yes. It's true.

Paul

[Pleroo]

But John 1:1 says that Jesus was the Word and the Word was WITH God (the Father in heaven).  Even before Jesus' birth he is described as being WITH God, not actually being God (the Father).

How do you reconcile that?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 is written the same way as Genesis 1:1 is written.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

It is a complete summary of both what was, and is and is to come in one sentence. It is what we like to say in the Screen play business, a Log Line.

Definition: Log Line
Answers the question: What is your story about?

So John 1:1 like Genesis 1:1, is the Log Line, it is telling us what this story is about.

John 1:1 is telling us both what was, and is and is to come. What Jesus was prior to becoming man, what he was when He was man and what He was after His death and resurrection.

Okay, log line, I can see that as a possibility.  However, if Jesus is God's word, that doesn't actually make him God.  What I speak isn't me, although it represents me.  

:sigh:  I'm afraid, as simple as you say this is, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it.  

[Pierac]

Karl Kuschel gives a good commentary on Adolf Harnack's understanding of pre-existent Christology. 

"In 1885 Adolf Harnack wrote with the first volume of his History of Dogma how in great historical sweeps he had begun to narrate the history of both an advanced (the Old Testament to the 'gospel') and a decline (the combination of the 'gospel' with Greek metaphysics), finally ending with the history of a dissolution: the shattering of dogma by Martin Luther and the church as a community of pure (undogmatic) position and faith.

Harnack attempted step-by-step to reconstruct the 'origins of apostolic-catholic doctrine' from its beginnings in scripture. Given the wealth of material, we shall limit ourselves to the development of the idea of pre-existence.

Anyone who wants to understand the challenge of the History of Dogma to any christological orthodoxy must, like Harnack, be disturbed by a crucial break in the history of Christianity.

On the one hand there is the Jew Jesus of Nazareth who proclaimed the kingdom of God, the forgiveness of sins and the better righteousness, who put at the centre of his proclamation not his person but God, whom he called his 'Father'. From a particular point of time in his activity, Jesus had become aware of himself as the Messiah destined by God-on the basis of his unique, into relationship to God. Jesus' assurance of his Son ship and messiahship is grounded in his unique knowledge of God, is intimate awareness of God-a mystery which cannot be explained or fandomed from outside. Jesus himself stressed his unique relationship to God 'not through disclosures about the mystery of his person but through the disclosure of the Father, the impact of his life and interpretation of his death'.

On the other hand, however according to Harnack precisely this happens in the second century on: the mystery of the person of Jesus was unveiled.  Now-after the New Testament period-in the time of the Apostolic Fathers in the early Christian apologist his spiritual climate had already changed completely.  After the controversy with Gnosticism and Marcionism a 'fixation and gradual Hellenization of Christianity as a doctrine' set in.

From the second century on, a dangerous Hellenization took place in Christianity, thus delivering Christianity over to philosophical cosmological and speculatives systems of thought.

What does it mean for the development of the christology of preexistence?  Harnack saw that Apostolic Fathers like Barnabas, Clement and Ignatius had already put forward a 'pneumatic christology'; their view had been that Jesus is the supreme heavenly spiritual being alongside God, who appeared on earth, lived a human life and after the completion of his work return to heaven.

What was the consequence of such a 'pneumatic christology'?  Jesus Christ was now increasingly torn from his Jewish-Old Testament roots and 'transplanted to Hellenistic and cosmological soil'. According to Harnack, 'even in his pre-existent state Christ is an independent power existing alongside God.  The pre-existence does not refer to his whole appearance, but only to a part of his essence; it does not primarily serve to glorify the wisdom and power of God... but glorifies Christ and thereby threatens the monarchy of God.'

'Taking for granted the transference of the concept of Son to the pre-existent Christ, the Apologists make possible the rise of the christological problem in the fourth century; they shifted the starting point of christological thought (from the historical Christ back into pre-existence), and overshadowed the life of Jesus with the incarnation; they associated christology with cosmology, but they could not connected with soteriology.

So what was Harnack decisive point: if we look at the development of christology, at how the one who proclaim the kingdom of God became a kind of heavenly being; now the intimate, mysterious personal relationship between Jesus of Nazareth and God became a theory about the divine and human natures; how the simple gospel came to be dissolved in a philosophical theory; how the monarchy of God was now threatened by the appearance of an independent heavenly Christ alongside God, we can tell the history of this christology only as a history of loss: as apostasy from its origins, as a displacing of the historical Jesus by the pre-existent Christ; as an intellectualist, speculative, cosmological alienation from the original proclamation of Jesus." 

[Pleroo]

So Pleroo, read it as all things were created  not "by" or "through" BUT  "on account of"  Jesus.  Just like the simplistic Message Bible reads...[/color]

Message Bible 1Co 8:6  They say--again, quite rightly--that there is only one God the Father, that everything comes from him, and that he wants us to live for him. Also, they say that there is only one Master--Jesus the Messiah--and that everything is for his sake, including us. Yes. It's true.

Paul

Ah, okay!  Finally I get what you're saying and now I can begin to look at Scripture and see if it bears out that what you're saying is true.  Thanks for your patience.  :icon_flower:

[Molly]

Jesus did not exist when God created the universe.

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

:mshock:

So what is this all about?--Since it's all talking about Jesus--


16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
--Col 1



10.He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

--John 1, KJV, 1611



001:001  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 
001:002  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

--Heb 1

[Molly]

So what was Harnack decisive point: if we look at the development of christology, at how the one who proclaim the kingdom of God became a kind of heavenly being; now the intimate, mysterious personal relationship between Jesus of Nazareth and God became a theory about the divine and human natures; how the simple gospel came to be dissolved in a philosophical theory; how the monarchy of God was now threatened by the appearance of an independent heavenly Christ alongside God, we can tell the history of this christology only as a history of loss: as apostasy from its origins, as a displacing of the historical Jesus by the pre-existent Christ; as an intellectualist, speculative, cosmological alienation from the original proclamation of Jesus." 

wow.  Talk about antichrist...


I have "an intimate, mysterious personal relationship" [with] God, but I guarantee you, I'm not going to save you.

[martincisneros]

So what was Harnack decisive point: if we look at the development of christology, at how the one who proclaim the kingdom of God became a kind of heavenly being; now the intimate, mysterious personal relationship between Jesus of Nazareth and God became a theory about the divine and human natures; how the simple gospel came to be dissolved in a philosophical theory; how the monarchy of God was now threatened by the appearance of an independent heavenly Christ alongside God, we can tell the history of this christology only as a history of loss: as apostasy from its origins, as a displacing of the historical Jesus by the pre-existent Christ; as an intellectualist, speculative, cosmological alienation from the original proclamation of Jesus." 

wow.  Talk about antichrist...

Definitely different from how I've always read my Bible.  This quote seems to announce that Jesus received worship both before and after His resurrection in apparent total apostacy from the will of the Father.  Saying He was only being worshipped as anointed one doesn't work for me 'cause I'm equally as much an anointed one too 'cause I'm His joint-heir seated alongside of Him, according to Romans, 2Corinthians, Ephesians, and 1John, and I'm not entitled to worship and don't want it by any remote stretch.  Yet, I'm equally as much "Son of God" according to John 1:12, Romans, Galatians, and 1John.  Jesus is God in a special sense above every other Son of God.