Can you explain?

[Molly]

It's not people falling away . . .it's the veil falling away.  When it falls away, the son of perdition is revealed . . .your ego.  It hides behind the veil

So, you are saying that my carnal nature/ego is the son of perdition in this passage?

What about where Jesus says--


John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I always thought that referred to a person, Judas, who betrayed Christ for money.  Only one disciple did that, so are all of them really the son of perdition that Jesus lost?

2 Thess goes on to talk about "that Wicked" that the Lord will consume, someone who is coming 'after the working of satan with powers, signs, and wonders,' and 'them  that perish' because 'they receive not the truth.'

So, that sounds to me like people doing specific things.  People who had 'pleasure in unrighteousness.'


I'm not arguing, I'm just having trouble seeing how this applies to me or any of us here.

[Molly]

It's what the bride does at the wedding ceremony, she removes her veil and can see clearly the features of her new groom.  But our groom won't come to us clearly if our veil is still in place, so before the coming of the Lord "to me", there must first be a falling away of my veil of carnality.

In a way, that's beautiful.  But, on the other hand, if I removed the veil at my wedding and saw the son of perdition standing there, I might go running out of the church.  :mshock:

[pneuma]

You see no difference in: "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" (Rev.3:1) and this "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). Who are you kidding brother, no, not me.

Hi Roy, I'm late to this discussion, but you are saying that the Jesus speaking in Rev.3 is the anti-Christ and not the Christ.

So we are to disregard all the things he said concerning the churches? 

Are you sure its not your understanding of the scriptures that cause you to see Rev.3 as being of the anti Christ?

You base this on where it say "the Beginning of the creation of God"

You may not be aware of this Roy but "the beginning of the creation of God"   is the foundation stone on which the new creation is built upon, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.

So Jesus Christ is the beginning/foundation of the creation of God.

Rev.3 is not saying Jesus was created, its saying that in HIM are all things created.

God bless

Brother Pneuma

That is a scurrilous accusation, where have you seen any such thing said by me? I think you owe me an apology.

Indeed I'm saying that Jesus Christ is the CREATOR, the one who created all things and not a created being which would make Him part of the creation.

Please read my posts very carefully before coming out with such blasphemies or cease communicating with me. I only deal with people who use facts, produce the evidence with the accusation next time. Do you understand me brother?

Peace!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)

Roy UK

Hi Roy, I think there is a misunderstanding here brother. (probably mine)

So let me try it this way.

I asked this question

I'm late to this discussion, but you are saying that the Jesus speaking in Rev.3 is the anti-Christ and not the Christ.

If your answer is yes, does that not make the Jesus, who you believe was created and spoke in Rev.3 antichrist?

If so my post stands as is, if not then I simply misunderstood you and if that is the case I do indeed apologise.

[Taffy]

It's not people falling away . . .it's the veil falling away.  When it falls away, the son of perdition is revealed . . .your ego.  It hides behind the veil

So, you are saying that my carnal nature/ego is the son of perdition in this passage?

What about where Jesus says--


John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I always thought that referred to a person, Judas, who betrayed Christ for money.  Only one disciple did that, so are all of them really the son of perdition that Jesus lost?

2 Thess goes on to talk about "that Wicked" that the Lord will consume, someone who is coming 'after the working of satan with powers, signs, and wonders,' and 'them  that perish' because 'they receive not the truth.'

So, that sounds to me like people doing specific things.  People who had 'pleasure in unrighteousness.'


I'm not arguing, I'm just having trouble seeing how this applies to me or any of us here.

Molly.

Have you ever considered why Christ often uses the Pharisees especially....for our benefit?

For me, its two fold having shared a little with Laren on the LOF thread...

consider....The pharisees( those of law) Typify the carnal Nature of Man, that Is the Mind of what some of us refer to as Flesh BEING ENMITY to the LAW of the SPIRIT( Christ)....therefore you have the equation of FLESH V SPIRIT, pauls speaks of this many times.

...but this also shows what Nathan is refering to, the son of Perdition ,the wicked is the FLESH, not only the Flesh of the pharisees, BUT THE flesh OF ALL men, WHICH AT ONE TIME were kept out side the VEIL( Holy of Holies).


Scripture in this way ,presents its self two fold....so yes ,the WICKED can be seen as a People, typfied and used as a  prime example, the ONES WHO SAT IN MOSES SEAT, and also, that which is the flesh, of us all

.

Its only by faith ,that the VEIL of our hearts is renedered,( picturing US dying with Him on the cross )allowing entry to SEE and understand the LIFE which lies within, WHICH SCRIPTURE CALLS THE Hidden MAN OF THE heart being Christ in us, WHICH PAUL CALLS THE MYSTERY OF THE AGES).

..therefore our FLESH dies, its no more, we died with HIm at the cross...we NOW LIVE anew IN HIS LIFE.

This is ALL CHRIST doing Molly, you heard willie , myself and others refer to it Many times,..By the GRACE of GOD walk I.

Ever herad the term JUDGE NOT LEST you BE judged,....YA SEE ,Christ lays Hidden in the hearts of all men Molly ,but HES only revealed By faith ...AN UNVEILING IS A revealing MOLLY OF THAT WHICH has always been

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:


...."IVE come to save that which IS LOST",..we are LOST molly , all of us at one time until HE REVEALS who HE IS to us, via faith and Grace.

CHRIST DOESNT COME DOWN FROM THE SKIES MOLLY AND ENTER US..HES REVEALED FROM WITHIN US...

sorta makes ya humble and NOT so special dont it....

The WICKED MOLLY is the carnal nature of US all,..but those in HIM, Not longer walk in the Flesh Molly, the wicked is no longerwith in us....BUT  your confusion is you still see the carnal nature of man in the world....YES molly, thats true, again epitomised by the pharisees...., each man in HIS APPOINTED time, as Christ say I come a THIEF in the """"NIGHT""""...to REMOVE the son of pedition , that is our carnal nature  (Youve read many of my posts Molly to know what I mean by Darkness, night),  just like saul, who is an example for ua all....HE WAS IN DARKNESS Molly, he couldnt see, one cant see in darkness Molly, Christ aplied eyesalve to remove HIS DARKNESS...getting the picture sis

makes sense Molly?

T

These scrips also speak to me the same thing..that which is Dark, night, wicked and EVIL....TwoCovenants, theres a Time for BOTH

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

[Nathan]

I mentioned this on other threads and other forums, but your question brings it back to me again.  I see the Scripture to be read in three basic dimensions . . .just as there are three dimensions to you, your body, soul, and spirit . .three dimensions to God . .Father, Son, Holy Spirit . .three dimensions to the tabernacle . .outer court, inner court, or holy place, and the holy of holies . . ..Jesus is the Word . . .John 1:1.  Jesus spoke in parables.  He said his words are "spirit" . . .a parable is an earthly story with a spiritual meaning.

There is a reason everything is hidden . .it has to do with hunger.  If I am hungry for truth, I dig for it.  Not that God wants to be mean and hide it from me, but that God is LOVE and hides it 'FOR' me.  Several times in Scripture there was a pattern that Jesus would do . .when he was walking with the disciples after his resurrection and they didn't recognize him . . .he spoke to them about his message before he left . .they still didn't recognize him . . .then when they reached they're destination, Jesus continued walking as though to leave them . .they invited him in . . he politely rejected . .but then they insisted . .he came in, ate with them . .there is a huge spiritual connection that takes place when one eats with another . .and when he gave thanks for the food . . . IN FRONT OF THEIR SEEING EYES he disappeared and immediately, revelation came to them of who he was.  It never would have happened if they just settled with being happy having a conversation with him on their way home.

Revelational truth only comes by way of relationship through Christ.  Seeing comes through grace . .you have the grace, you just have to be willing to lay down what flesh and blood has taught you.  The act of laying down what you think to be true will be your faith manifesting . . . at which point, God will reveal to you great mysteries of who Jesus is.  There is so much I can see . .but there is still so much I don't know.

That's why these forums can be such a great tool and blessing as we come to receive more than to give.  But in reading of the giving from others .  .like Taf and H . . .it sparks things in us that causes us to "want" to let it flow out of us and into others.  The more we let it flow out, the more God allows it to flow in . . .the circle of life is not around me or in me . .it is through me. 

Just as what comes out of your mouth can defile you . .not what goes in . .so to, what comes out of your mouth can also purify you . . .I can't tell you how many times I've said things I've never heard before . . . it's unreal at times.  I do personally struggle sometimes when others only base their acceptance on your words, if you have a Scripture to back it up . . . The spirit is not confined to what is written.  This is not to say that the Spirit will say things that are opposite of what was written . .like . . .killing is an okay thing . . lying, cheating . .all of that . . but it is saying that the Spirit will take the word that's already been spoken and illuminate more even though the Word doesn't clarify it . .actually, the Word is not supposed to be what clarifies truth.  It's the Spirit that clarifies the Word, not the other way around.

To your original question about Judas . . .we all have a "son of perdition" in us.  It's the same as when Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan . . .we all have a satan in us . .. simply means "adversary".  Peter, not having the vision to see Jesus purpose was to bring resurrection life . .only heard Jesus was going to die . so he stepped in to "defend" . . .those who base life on the written word . .take note . . . The word is not to defend anything.  Peter did it more than once, and Jesus rebuked him more than once.

Jesus does not need us to defend him.  He needs us to manifest him.

Hope this helps

[Molly]

CHRIST DOESNT COME DOWN FROM THE SKIES MOLLY AND ENTER US..HES REVEALED FROM WITHIN US...

sorta makes ya humble and NOT so special dont it....

On the contrary,it makes me feel VERY special.  Humble in the sense of the awesome responsibility of it, to be a vessel of Christ on this earth, to work towards that end my whole life, to be a living sacrifice.  And, it makes me look at my fellow humans--with a renewed sense of hope, awe, and love.  ...do you love me?(Jn 21:16)

Christ is truth--I am...the truth... (Jn14:6)

That means, in a world of lies,  he will show us all truth about everything. 

That means, in a world where the truth is completely hidden, nothing will be hidden that is not revealed.

Truth can be a very bitter pill--which is partly why most people avoid it.

...do you love me?


Revelation 10:10
And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.


11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.


What is the bitter truth that must be prophesied before peoples, nations, tongues, and kings?

We are to be witnesses to the truth.


19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
--John 3

Jesus does not need us to defend him.  He needs us to manifest him.

Amen to that!

[Taffy]

sorta makes ya humble and NOT so special dont it....

Special ,In the context of being BETTER , superior ,(in the FLESH) than others...I beleive you know what I mean Molly :icon_flower:

[Molly]

sorta makes ya humble and NOT so special dont it....

Special ,In the context of being BETTER , superior ,(in the FLESH) than others...I beleive you know what I mean Molly :icon_flower:

Yes, I do.  And, what you are describing is one way that satan has perverted the scripture.

I know what you mean. :icon_flower:

The servant is not greater than the master.

[Taffy]

Yes, I do.  And, what you are describing is one way that satan has perverted the scripture.

Tis YOUR OPINION Molly......or ARE you saying My veiws are satanic? :dontknow: :dontknow:

[Molly]

Yes, I do.  And, what you are describing is one way that satan has perverted the scripture.

Tis YOUR OPINION Molly......or ARE you saying My veiws are satanic? :dontknow: :dontknow:

No. LOL

Ok let me try again.

I understand what you meant by not being special.  Those who would exalt themselves above all others--even take upon themselves the right to kill others--consider themselves special.  Those that deck themselves out with gold and jewels and garments of fine cloth and have others kiss their hands--have gotten it wrong.  That is the flesh.  I understand that.  Jesus didn't do any of that.  He was a servant.

Just agreeing with you.

But from the point of view of Spirit we are  special--in that our master is special--the unique Son of God.

[Taffy]

Yes, I do.  And, what you are describing is one way that satan has perverted the scripture.

Tis YOUR OPINION Molly......or ARE you saying My veiws are satanic? :dontknow: :dontknow:

No. LOL

Ok let me try again.

I understand what you meant by not being special.  Those who would exalt themselves above all others--even take upon themselves the right to kill others--consider themselves special.  Those that deck themselves out with gold and jewels and garments of fine cloth and have others kiss their hands--have gotten it wrong.  That is the flesh.  I understand that.

Just agreeing with you.

But from the point of view of Spirit we are  special--in that our master is special--the unique Son of God.

Phew..Im glad I was Confused.....thanks for explaining :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

You two okay now?  Give each other a hug, blow your noses .  . . sheesh . .crazy kids. :boyheart: :girlheart:

[Taffy]

You two okay now?  Give each other a hug, blow your noses .  . . sheesh . .crazy kids. :boyheart: :girlheart:

Twas I Nathan... :mblush: not molly :HeartThrob:

Weve had our threads ,but every thing continues AS was, :icon_flower: after wards.

At moment we are away celebrating our 20th anniversary, so I just pop on and off the PC....

Later matey :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Congratulations bro!  Our 20th anniversary is next month . . .I just got handed a plaque . .I kid you not, about 20 minutes ago from my supervisor here at work, celebrating my 20 years of working here at Quaker.. . I got on here two weeks after our wedding. I even get to order out of a gift catologue!  I wonder how I'd look in pearl ear rings . . . :laughing7:

[Taffy]

Congratulations bro!  Our 20th anniversary is next month . . .I just got handed a plaque . .I kid you not, about 20 minutes ago from my supervisor here at work, celebrating my 20 years of working here at Quaker.. . I got on here two weeks after our wedding. I even get to order out of a gift catologue!  I wonder how I'd look in pearl ear rings . . . :laughing7:

Thanks Nat..wow..,really......gee,..well matey, Congrats on BOTH,..

we have two anniversaries every yr...the 21st and the 22nd...as a Pastor, why would that be Nat?..leave ya with that puzzler :laughing7:

[Nathan]

could you clarify the riddle?  I'd like to have a clearer understanding before I answer it  :laughing7:clearly wrong

[Taffy]

could you clarify the riddle?  I'd like to have a clearer understanding before I answer it  :laughing7:clearly wrong

sure Bro..
we got married in the WWCG, they hold no registered buildings in the UK to certify marriage, we at the time were sabbath Keepers( Saturday) so, we Got married at a Local comminity Centre on the Sunday by the Pastor of our Church and had our ceremony there...Monday Morning we were down to the Local registry office to be married again according to the LAW of the LAND....so, ya could say this is also Our 40th :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:


:icon_flower: :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Wow, you religious people are freakin' wierd!

That's why we always buy American! (yeah, I know, it makes no sense, but it's all I got!)

[Taffy]

Wow, you religious people are freakin' wierd!

That's why we always buy American! (yeah, I know, it makes no sense, but it's all I got!)

HE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Man was that church raking it in...they imposed three tithes on its members but told them NO WORKING saturdays....while the ministry had everything paid for 2nd homes, new cars, pensions,etc.. while many of the members couldnt afford to keep their heads above water...man ya Right, religous folk are wierd...


Pastors normally get My hairs up,.......A little like when we first met..remember Pastor I :laughing7:...

but you aint the Norm, your strange,,,,, :Sparkletooth:

[Nathan]

Now you have ME laughing outloud . . .you're beginning to sound like my WIFE!! :bgdance:

[Roy Monis]

You see no difference in: "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" (Rev.3:1) and this "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). Who are you kidding brother, no, not me.

Hi Roy, I'm late to this discussion, but you are saying that the Jesus speaking in Rev.3 is the anti-Christ and not the Christ.

So we are to disregard all the things he said concerning the churches? 

Are you sure its not your understanding of the scriptures that cause you to see Rev.3 as being of the anti Christ?

You base this on where it say "the Beginning of the creation of God"

You may not be aware of this Roy but "the beginning of the creation of God"   is the foundation stone on which the new creation is built upon, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.

So Jesus Christ is the beginning/foundation of the creation of God.

Rev.3 is not saying Jesus was created, its saying that in HIM are all things created.

God bless

Brother Pneuma

That is a scurrilous accusation, where have you seen any such thing said by me? I think you owe me an apology.

Indeed I'm saying that Jesus Christ is the CREATOR, the one who created all things and not a created being which would make Him part of the creation.

Please read my posts very carefully before coming out with such blasphemies or cease communicating with me. I only deal with people who use facts, produce the evidence with the accusation next time. Do you understand me brother?

Peace!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)

Roy UK

Hi Roy, I think there is a misunderstanding here brother. (probably mine)

So let me try it this way.

I asked this question

I'm late to this discussion, but you are saying that the Jesus speaking in Rev.3 is the anti-Christ and not the Christ.

If your answer is yes, does that not make the Jesus, who you believe was created and spoke in Rev.3 antichrist?

If so my post stands as is, if not then I simply misunderstood you and if that is the case I do indeed apologise.

Dear Brother pneuma

Your quote:- If your answer is yes, does that not make the Jesus, who you believe was created and spoke in Rev.3 antichrist?

My answer:-Where on earth have you got this from, I have never made any such statement. Can you quote from any of my posts.

I regret to say you're wrong. You may have seen that in someone else's post but certainly not mine. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour God, born of the Father but not created by Him. Please remember this brother, and don't credit me with such a scurrilous accusation it is offensive.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy  UK

[CHB]

I regret to say you're wrong. You may have seen that in someone else's post but certainly not mine. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour God, born of the Father but not created by Him. Please remember this brother, and don't credit me with such a scurrilous accusation it is offensive.

Hi Roy,

You say Christ was born of the Father but not created by Him. I don't see the difference.  My way of looking at this is, if Jesus didn't exist at one time whether he was born or whatever he is a creation of God. To create: is to cause to come into existance. This is what God the Father did with Christ.

CHB

[Roy Monis]

Yes I would disagree, because only God knows the heart of man and their disposition to repentance when wrong has been been identified. We do not know the process duration because it is aionios, not aidios. There is no nitpicking over a simple word except by those who continue to deny what it actually means.

Hi! SOtW

Do you believe that a blanket." Sorry Lord I have committed an abundance of atrocities of insane torture and taken great pleasure from watching them suffer. Forgive me!" will set him free of all chastisement? Be real brother, I don't mean any disrespect. You and I have repented of our sins but none as vicious as our friend Saddam, yet we will undergo chastisement till we are perfect. God is the final judge I fully agree, but I think a little bit of carnal commonsense would be in order here. Don't you or the emphasis put on the meaning of grace can run amok?

Peace!url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)[/url]

Roy   UK

You are not understanding my position, because I am one of the few in this forum who does believe in an afterlife punishment, there is no such thing, or very rare thing as a deathbed repentance one's actions after a life-time of wickedness people like Saddam did. Since Saddam did not repent in this life he most definitely is being sent into aionios punishment. What type of punishment that is, how long it lasts, is dependent upon God's providence. If God in His plan makes this to be a blanket, then that is how God wanted it to be; if God in His plan makes this to be reliving his same life but with different choices, then that is how God wanted it to be. We do not know Saddam's heart, God takes everything into account when He renders His Judgment, so this is why I disagree with you. God judges those who are on the outside.

Hi! SOtW

Did Saddam show mercy while he watched his victims suffer? "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." (Jas.2:13)

Peace!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1298/1298544e42yk3c624.gif)

Roy  UK

[Craig]

Hi! SOtW

Did Saddam show mercy while he watched his victims suffer? "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." (Jas.2:13)

Peace!

Roy  UK

Only God knows Roy, not man. Mankind perceives anything they want to see, even that which was never there in the first place. I would not trust the lie of human perception over the truth of God's perception. Start paying attention o my replies, because I answered this already for you, we are not God, we do not know the heart of any man but our own. However, on this, Saddam was not shown any mercy. His empire destroyed, and he was hanged and his head displayed in disrespect. Saddam was not shown any mercy, he was killed even before his tribunal had pronounced his guilt.

[Roy Monis]

I regret to say you're wrong. You may have seen that in someone else's post but certainly not mine. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour God, born of the Father but not created by Him. Please remember this brother, and don't credit me with such a scurrilous accusation it is offensive.

Hi Roy,

You say Christ was born of the Father but not created by Him. I don't see the difference.  My way of looking at this is, if Jesus didn't exist at one time whether he was born or whatever he is a creation of God. To create: is to cause to come into existance. This is what God the Father did with Christ.

CHB

Hi! CHB

Not I brother, the Word of God is saying it "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. "  (1Jn.5:1). Born of the Father and not created by the Father. A big, BIG difference. A matter of worshiping an idol or false christ, which is contrary to the first commandment "You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"  (Ex.20:3-5).

A false christ is an idol "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour." (1Jn.2:18). Antichrists are false christs, IDOLS. "Little children, guard yourselves from idols." (1Jn.5:21).

Why all the confusion and lack of understanding "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2Thess.2:11-12).  And what is the false and what is the truth? The false is the created christ, an idol created by man, and the truth is the TRUE CHRIST who is begotten/born of God  "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (Jn.1:18).

This is why you cannot see the BIG difference between begotten and created. If you truly believed in the True Jesus Christ the difference would stick out like a sore thumb.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK