Can you explain?

[Roy Monis]

Hi! I'm Roy Monis

I am new on this site and I've had my very first post blocked. Everything that I've posted was perfectly valid and supported by Scripture, so I don't understand why discussion on a perfectly valid Scriptural question such as " Was Jesus Created or Born?" blocked. Is it the purpose of this forum to discuss Scripture or not? I have not brought any of my own teachings or ideas in as far as I'm aware, so why?

Can someone please explain. I was given a link to a site that accepted all faiths, this to me was an insult, as I believe in the Scripture that says; "Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."  (Jn.14:6). 

This is the only way to God and there is no other, so who took it on himself to insult me?

Is this normal procedure on this site? If it is God help us.

I look forward to some sense being made of this. I'm sure the person who took it on himself to block that thread would have been aware of that Scripture and not give offense.

Peace! 

Roy   UK

[Taffy]

Hey
Roy
Dont sweat IT bro... :icon_flower:

One normally can only post after joining in the welcome section making themselves Known to members( this is to trap any spammers) but Ive seen youve done this already..
Posts go through whatever and THEN they MAY be dealt with as according to the rules.

I can only say at this time without finding out more info..maybe you post got lost out there in cyberspace My friend...Please try again.

It not normal procedure Roy..as I say ,Please try again.

Blessings
Taffy

Having Checked, I dont see it in the Holding tank OR recycle bins which is where all deleted posts go

[SeekerSA]

Roy

If it was the one where you asked Craig about the origins of Jesus, that thread was merged with the one from the guest board and was locked by me, Martin merged the two and the lock is still on but the topic hinges on the trinity which is ess. not allowed to be debated here as per the owner Gary's instructions.

At FLf in my siggy below, this is allowed and there are topics there.  You will get both sides of the argument there.

Blessings

[Roy Monis]

Roy

If it was the one where you asked Craig about the origins of Jesus, that thread was merged with the one from the guest board and was locked by me, Martin merged the two and the lock is still on but the topic hinges on the trinity which is ess. not allowed to be debated here as per the owner Gary's instructions.

At FLf in my siggy below, this is allowed and there are topics there.  You will get both sides of the argument there.

Blessings

Hi! SeekerSA

My post had nothing whatsoever to do with the Trinity theory, I don't subscribe to it and never have done. Matthew 1:18 &20 takes good care of that; "....found to be with child by the Holy Spirit." Vs.18 and "...Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.".Vs.20.

That wasn't the question, the question was "Was Jesus Christ created or begotten/born?" I resent being directed to a site that embraces all faiths, seeing as I embrace just the one. We are supposedly followers of Christ and as such;  "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (Jn.14:6), there is no other faith.

OK you are directed not to discuss the Trinity farce but surely you know what you believe? Whether Jesus Christ/The Word was Created or Begotten/Born?  I do not mean the carnal man Jesus in the flesh who was indeed created; this Scripture takes care of that "Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. "Then I said, Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.'"
(Heb.10:5-7).

This leaves just the one issue to be answered. Was Jesus Christ The Word created or begotten/born? I don't know who you mean by Craig, the only Craig I know is a moderator on BT and I have asked the same question there. I'm sorry to raise this issue but I didn't realize that there were so many different schools of thought on it and I believe in just the one. To be like minded, in fairness and honesty to the site and membership we should all believe the same doctrines or we are hypocrites. 

If the basic beliefs of the site teachings were clearly stated in the entrance exam I went through to register I would have had a better idea, but as it is I'm having to find out now.

So what is your teaching on this subject, please let me know as it is of the utmost importance? Since coming out of Babylon I have learned the True Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Salvation of ALL mankind. I have learned the utter fallacy of man having a free will, and I'm truly grateful for all these marvelous revelations. But I believe that these are all the cosmetics, without the true Foundation Stone (Jesus Christ) being in place the house will collapse no matter how inspired the other teachings may be.

Thank you in love.

Peace!    (http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)

Roy   UK

[Craig]

<---- I am Craig (who by the way was the Original "Craig" of BT forums, until Craig banned me and took the Nickname)

I have always believed that all doctrine is relevant to the discussion of Universal Salvation because not everyone is on the same page and what a person presupposes in their belief is foundation to why they believe in Universal Salvation.

Reason works in this way.

Foundation (Definition, Proposition/Presupposition, Argument, Conclusion)
Doctrine based on Foundation -> Propositional Argument -> Propositional Conclusion

Example:

Water Baptism.

If a person believes that a person must be literally water baptized to go to heaven but also believes in Universal Salvation, that person needs to reconcile how it is possible to have Universal Salvation without Water Baptism, or how all are Water Baptized now or eventually in order to be saved.

As a result, a long discussion on water baptism would be needed where we define baptism, state our propositions and presuppositions, argue the reasoning for the propositions and presuppositions, and arrive at a conclusion based on the facts, philosophy and reasoning.

Though many people do not know how to have a proper discussion, it is usually too emotionally charged and results in character insults of the person who disagrees with them, and instead of addressing the problem by getting rid of the one who insults another to get his point across but don't. There are many reasons for this, chiefly being that people have a victims mentality and claim things are insults that are not insults, and end up discussing what is an insult or not in a water baptism discussion. Other reasons include, lack of knowledge to be discussing the discussion, lack of knowledge in how to have a discussion, politics of a discussion which involves emotions, the headaches of having to deal with the complaints that someone said another person could be, or is wrong, etc.

After 5 years of Tentmaker Forums, 2 of them being Administrator, I am at a loss to why many of these things is a problem but it does seem to be a problem and so Gary (the administrator) made it simple. From experience in the forums, he knows, like most moderators and administrators past and present, what discussions end up turning into fights and not profitable. They range from was Jesus born/created, did we pre-exist, serpent seed doctrine, Trinity, Water Baptism, Speaking in tongues, among many others,  and it just so happens that most of these discussions have nothing to do with Universal Salvation (unless of course the person having the discussion some how has pointed out it is an issue to them concerning Universal Salvation and in that case I believe it should be discussed [see example above]).

That is why I asked, what is the dilemma whether Jesus was born or created causes you. If it prevents you or changes your mind or reinforces the idea, etc of Universal Salvation, then it needs to be addressed. If it isn't really a problem or road block to understanding Universal Salvation, then it won't be discussed as it is a non-issue concerning UR/CU and won't be discussed here for the above reasons.

To give an example. I (Craig) believe in the Trinity, SeekerSA does not. But it doesn't make a difference when it comes to UR/CU, and we agree to disagree, we both have our reasons and they are both pretty solid, and we love God more and more, and are friends with each other. The Trinity is not an issue when it concerns UR/CU.

Craig

[SeekerSA]

Thanx Craig

Roy FLf is not an all faiths forum - yet.  95% members there are members here.  The forum started when this one was cut back to a narrower focus.  The boards that once were here are there now.  It is ess. just another place where these "no-no" topics when needing discussing can be rerouted there.

If a Buddhist signed up there we would accommodate him/her but we would not surrender the Christ centric focus of the forum.  There is just a broader focus than here the main focus being Father's Love.

Hope that clears it up for you.

(Martin chime in when you see this)

Blessings

[Molly]

10.He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

--John 1, KJV, 1611



001:001  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 
001:002  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

--Hebrews 1, KJV, 1611



O Lord Jesus, the Creator!

[Roy Monis]

<---- I am Craig (who by the way was the Original "Craig" of BT forums, until Craig banned me and took the Nickname)

I have always believed that all doctrine is relevant to the discussion of Universal Salvation because not everyone is on the same page and what a person presupposes in their belief is foundation to why they believe in Universal Salvation.

Reason works in this way.

Foundation (Definition, Proposition/Presupposition, Argument, Conclusion)
Doctrine based on Foundation -> Propositional Argument -> Propositional Conclusion

Example:

Water Baptism.

If a person believes that a person must be literally water baptized to go to heaven but also believes in Universal Salvation, that person needs to reconcile how it is possible to have Universal Salvation without Water Baptism, or how all are Water Baptized now or eventually in order to be saved.

As a result, a long discussion on water baptism would be needed where we define baptism, state our propositions and presuppositions, argue the reasoning for the propositions and presuppositions, and arrive at a conclusion based on the facts, philosophy and reasoning.

Though many people do not know how to have a proper discussion, it is usually too emotionally charged and results in character insults of the person who disagrees with them, and instead of addressing the problem by getting rid of the one who insults another to get his point across but don't. There are many reasons for this, chiefly being that people have a victims mentality and claim things are insults that are not insults, and end up discussing what is an insult or not in a water baptism discussion. Other reasons include, lack of knowledge to be discussing the discussion, lack of knowledge in how to have a discussion, politics of a discussion which involves emotions, the headaches of having to deal with the complaints that someone said another person could be, or is wrong, etc.

After 5 years of Tentmaker Forums, 2 of them being Administrator, I am at a loss to why many of these things is a problem but it does seem to be a problem and so Gary (the administrator) made it simple. From experience in the forums, he knows, like most moderators and administrators past and present, what discussions end up turning into fights and not profitable. They range from was Jesus born/created, did we pre-exist, serpent seed doctrine, Trinity, Water Baptism, Speaking in tongues, among many others,  and it just so happens that most of these discussions have nothing to do with Universal Salvation (unless of course the person having the discussion some how has pointed out it is an issue to them concerning Universal Salvation and in that case I believe it should be discussed [see example above]).

That is why I asked, what is the dilemma whether Jesus was born or created causes you. If it prevents you or changes your mind or reinforces the idea, etc of Universal Salvation, then it needs to be addressed. If it isn't really a problem or road block to understanding Universal Salvation, then it won't be discussed as it is a non-issue concerning UR/CU and won't be discussed here for the above reasons.

To give an example. I (Craig) believe in the Trinity, SeekerSA does not. But it doesn't make a difference when it comes to UR/CU, and we agree to disagree, we both have our reasons and they are both pretty solid, and we love God more and more, and are friends with each other. The Trinity is not an issue when it concerns UR/CU.

Craig

#############

Hi! Craig

After all that what you're really saying is, if I understand you correctly, that as long as one believes that ALL mankind will be eventually saved it doesn't matter what one really believes? In short there is no such thing as hell.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url

Roy   UK

[Craig]

Hi! Craig

After all that what you're really saying is, if I understand you correctly, that as long as one believes that ALL mankind will be eventually saved it doesn't matter what one really believes? In short there is no such thing as hell.

In this forum at least.

The truth is the truth regardless if a person believes it or not. God is no respecter of persons, and therefore not subject to our perceptions. So, in this way it doesn't matter what a person believes is true or not, the truth remains.

Now if a person wants to know what is true, then it does matter what a person believes because not everything a person believes is true. Therefore discussing it, talking about it, praying about it, studying it, all becomes relevant if you want to live out of the Truth as well. In this forum, if you believe in salvation of all mankind, or don't believe it and have questions on how that is possible, or objections to why it might not be, well that is why Tentmaker Forums is up, to discuss, talk, pray, study all about it.

On a side note, I believe there is a hell, it just isn't perpetual in nature and is nothing like Dante's Inferno.

Jesus is Lord! Amen.

Craig

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Craig

After all that what you're really saying is, if I understand you correctly, that as long as one believes that ALL mankind will be eventually saved it doesn't matter what one really believes? In short there is no such thing as hell.

In this forum at least.

The truth is the truth regardless if a person believes it or not. God is no respecter of persons, and therefore not subject to our perceptions. So, in this way it doesn't matter what a person believes is true or not, the truth remains.

Now if a person wants to know what is true, then it does matter what a person believes because not everything a person believes is true. Therefore discussing it, talking about it, praying about it, studying it, all becomes relevant if you want to live out of the Truth as well. In this forum, if you believe in salvation of all mankind, or don't believe it and have questions on how that is possible, or objections to why it might not be, well that is why Tentmaker Forums is up, to discuss, talk, pray, study all about it.

On a side note, I believe there is a hell, it just isn't perpetual in nature and is nothing like Dante's Inferno.

Jesus is Lord! Amen.

Craig

##############

Hi! Craig

Yes 'tis true there is a hell of age duration and its called "God's Consuming Fire" for refining purposes. This much I believe and owe to bible truths and also no free moral agency. The Trinity absurdity I of course knew from the apostle Matthew to be an impossibility.

I am here to learn about Jesus Christ my Lord, but if the wrong Jesus Christ, a created being,  is being taught then I am worshiping a creature and not the Creator. The Jesus I believe in is the legitimate Son of God who was in the bosom of the Father from the very beginning, the Word. (Jn.1:1). It is this Jesus Christ/Word/Son of God/God who is the Creator who was Begotten/Born of the Father, not created. There is no mention in the Bible that the Father had any part in creation, all power was given to the Son for that purpose. This is what Scripture tells us. Why don't we believe the Scriptures and add insult to injury by teaching a false False Jesus Christ?

I'm sorry but I do not mix myself up with other heathen religions. You say that Tentmakers is only interested in those who believe in salvation for all mankind. That's precisely it, I believe in the salvation of all mankind, but if we do not believe in the True Jesus Of that salvation then we are all going to burn in God's Consuming Fire for one heck of a long time. Which is no walk in the park."I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (Jn.14:6). That is my rock and foundation nothing else, no arguments, totally biased.       

Is this not a legitimate subject to be discussed on this forum considering it concerns salvation of all mankind?

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK

[laren]

That's precisely it, I believe in the salvation of all mankind, but if we do not believe in the True Jesus Of that salvation then we are all going to burn in God's Consuming Fire for one heck of a long time. (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK

Rom 9:28  For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


Is there scriptures that says one will be in the LOF "a heck of a long time"??

[laren]

Mat 24:50  The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Mat 24:51  And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Psa 30:5  For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favor is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.


moment:

H7281
רגע
rega‛
reh'-gah
From H7280; a wink (of the eyes), that is, a very short space of time: - instant, moment, space, suddenly.

[Taffy]

Mat 24:50  The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Mat 24:51  And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Psa 30:5  For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favor is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.


moment:

H7281
רגע
rega‛
reh'-gah
From H7280; a wink (of the eyes), that is, a very short space of time: - instant, moment, space, suddenly.

:icon_flower:

sounds awful egh?..but that flesh has to die ....

Psa 59:13 Consume [them] in wrath, consume [them], that they [may] not [be]: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth. Selah.

speaks of Grace for mine,,,

Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


Eze 7:19 They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.


What worketh WRATH?

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgressioN
:icon_flower:

[laren]

I agree Taffy,

My point is whether if someone doesn't "believe" right about the who TRUE Jesus is,

that they will burn a very long time. 


Here Roy is saying we must believe in a TRUE JESUS,

but then if we don't that his "wrath" will be a very long time. 



Is that true??  Will we burn a "very long time" if we don't believe in the TRUE Jesus.


If not, then isn't that a false belief about Jesus, and therefore a "wrong belief" about who the True Jesus is?




Is there any scripture that talks of "burning a very LONG time" for some sins??



To me, that would imply a "sick torturing God", one who prolongs his judgements on purpose just to "get even".

[Taffy]

I agree Taffy,

My point is whether if someone doesn't "believe" right about the who TRUE Jesus is,

that they will burn a very long time. 


Here Roy is saying we must believe in a TRUE JESUS,

but then if we don't that his "wrath" will be a very long time. 



Is that true??  Will we burn a "very long time" if we don't believe in the TRUE Jesus.


If not, then isn't that a false belief about Jesus, and therefore a "wrong belief" about who the True Jesus is?




Is there any scripture that talks of "burning a very LONG time" for some sins??



To me, that would imply a "sick torturing God", one who prolongs his judgements on purpose just to "get even".

For sure Laren, I have my thoughts concerning scripture in such matters..But for now. Im waiting for Me fellow Brit ( Roy :icon_flower:) to answer himself, im hoping he will clear up it up... :icon_flower:

Later bro

T

[Craig]

Psa 30:5  For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favor is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

Awesome Scripture Laren. :D

[Roy Monis]

I agree Taffy,

My point is whether if someone doesn't "believe" right about the who TRUE Jesus is,

that they will burn a very long time. 


Here Roy is saying we must believe in a TRUE JESUS,

but then if we don't that his "wrath" will be a very long time. 



Is that true??  Will we burn a "very long time" if we don't believe in the TRUE Jesus.


If not, then isn't that a false belief about Jesus, and therefore a "wrong belief" about who the True Jesus is?




Is there any scripture that talks of "burning a very LONG time" for some sins??



To me, that would imply a "sick torturing God", one who prolongs his judgements on purpose just to "get even".

For sure Laren, I have my thoughts concerning scripture in such matters..But for now. Im waiting for Me fellow Brit ( Roy :icon_flower:) to answer himself, im hoping he will clear up it up... :icon_flower:

Later bro

T

Hi! Taff

This is what I'm about, the difference between Begotten and Created. There is a gulf as wide as East to West between them.

Let us first consider the physical world.

To be born it requires two individuals to be involved, the result boy/girl has the character traits of both father and mother, they are not a mirror image of either of the parents. They are separate individuals.

Now let us consider the spiritual.

The Father is Spirit and we are told that "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18) Only the Son who is in the bosom of the Father has seen Him. We are also told that; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (Jn.1:1-2) that the Word/Son/Christ was in the beginning, and that the Word was with God the Father, and that the Word was God.

This can only mean that the Son (Fetus) was in the bosom of the Father from the very beginning. In which case the Son has the identical character traits bestowed on Him by the Father as the Father is ONE GOD therefore only one parent with no genealogy."I and the Father are one."   (Jn.10:30). "Worthy art thou, our Lord and our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power: for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they were, and were created."  (Rev.4:11). In short a snapshot image of the Father but junior to or less than the Father by virtue of being His Son. "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (Jn.14:28).

What the Word of God is saying to me is that when the Father decided to start His work of Creation He brought forth, gave birth to His Only Begotten Son, who is a legitimate Son/God/Christ, and not a created God/Christ, who is then commissioned by the Father to create all things that are of or in the Father. Jesus Christ is the Creator/God and the beginning of all creation.

If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the creation not the CREATOR. That's what I believe and that is what the Word of God is saying to me, Scripture witness Scripture, and spiritual witness spiritual. To worship the creature, a created being, is pure idolatry. The TRUE JESUS CHRIST is GOD by right, and not something of man's creation. The penalty for leaving your First Love, God; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent."  Rev.2:5) and worshiping an idol is to have that idol burned out of you for no matter how long it takes, but one thing is certain it WILL COME OUT. Even from the Stalin's, Hitler's, Pol Pots and Saddam's. 

I hope this answers your question.

Peace!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)

Roy     (fellow Britt)

[Roy Monis]

I agree Taffy,

My point is whether if someone doesn't "believe" right about the who TRUE Jesus is,

that they will burn a very long time. 


Here Roy is saying we must believe in a TRUE JESUS,

but then if we don't that his "wrath" will be a very long time. 



Is that true??  Will we burn a "very long time" if we don't believe in the TRUE Jesus.


If not, then isn't that a false belief about Jesus, and therefore a "wrong belief" about who the True Jesus is?




Is there any scripture that talks of "burning a very LONG time" for some sins??



To me, that would imply a "sick torturing God", one who prolongs his judgements on purpose just to "get even".

For sure Laren, I have my thoughts concerning scripture in such matters..But for now. Im waiting for Me fellow Brit ( Roy :icon_flower:) to answer himself, im hoping he will clear up it up... :icon_flower:

Later bro

T

Hi! Taff

This is what I'm about, brother, the difference between Begotten and Created. There is a gulf as wide as East to West between them.

Let us consider the physical world first.

For anyone to be born it requires the involvement of two individuals, the result boy/girl has the character traits of both father and mother, it is not a mirror image of either one. The child is a completely separate individual with character traits of its own, a mix of the two parents..

Now let us consider the spiritual.

The Father is Spirit and we are told that "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18) Only the Son (Fetus) who is in the bosom of the Father has seen Him. We are also told that; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (Jn.1:1-2) that the Word/Son/Christ was in the beginning, and that the Word was with God the Father, and that the Word was God.

This can only mean that the Son was in the bosom of the Father from the very beginning. In which case the Son has the identical character traits bestowed on Him by the Father as the Father is ONE GOD with no genealogy. "I and the Father are one."   (Jn.10:30). "Worthy art thou, our Lord and our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power: for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they were, and were created."  (Rev.4:11). In short he is a snapshot image of the Father but junior to or less than the Father by virtue of being His Son. "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (Jn.14:28). He possesses all the identical character traits of the Father but of lower rank hence subject to Him.

What the Word of God is saying to me is that when the Father decided to start His work of Creation He brought forth, gave birth to His Only Begotten Son, who is the Father's legitimate Son/God/Christ, and not a created god/christ, who is then commissioned by the Father to create all things that are of or in the Father. Jesus Christ is the Creator/God and the beginning of all creation.

If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the creation not the CREATOR. That's what I believe and that is what the Word of God is saying to me, Scripture witness Scripture, spiritual witness spiritual. To worship the created Christ is; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent." (Rev.2:5). to fall from your First Love, which is the True God. 

The punishment for disobedience is for the duration it takes to burn that, false Christ idol, out of ones character; "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."  (2Pet.2:20-22). One thing is for sure we will all burn till the dross and evil is removed and we are pure/perfect for our God is PERFECT. "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.' " (Zech.9)

I hope this answers your question?

Peace!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)

Roy     (fellow Britt)

[Roy Monis]

10.He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

--John 1, KJV, 1611



001:001  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 
001:002  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

--Hebrews 1, KJV, 1611



O Lord Jesus, the Creator!

#######

Hi! Molly

I fully appreciate and fully agree with all that you have said above but my question is; "Which Jesus Christ are we worshiping? Are we worshiping the the True Jesus Christ, Son of God , the Word as He is called in (Jn.1:1-2) who was Begotten/ Given birth to, Born of the Father, or are we worshiping the the Created Jesus. Because there are apparently two Jesus' on the market at the moment, and it is vitally important that we worship the correct One.

If we worship the Created Christ we are worshiping the creation, an idol, and not the Creator. If we worship the Christ that is given birth to by the Father then we are worshiping God the Creator. Please read my post to brother Taffy and you'll see the full picture of what I'm saying.

Peace! (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif) 

Roy   UK

[laren]

The punishment for disobedience is for the duration it takes to burn that, false Christ idol, out of ones character; "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."  (2Pet.2:20-22). One thing is for sure we will all burn till the dross and evil is removed and we are pure/perfect for our God is PERFECT. "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.' " (Zech.9)

I hope this answers your question?

Peace!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)

Roy     (fellow Britt)

I'm still hung up on your word "duration" a few posts earlier.  I still don't see any evidence of duration in your verses you quoted. 

again I ask, to anyone, is there verses out there that describe the lake of fire as certain duration's??  longer for worshiping the creation rather than the creator, or longer for "worse sins" than "less worse sins"?? 

it does sound like different intensities (worse off)however. 

[Roy Monis]

That's precisely it, I believe in the salvation of all mankind, but if we do not believe in the True Jesus Of that salvation then we are all going to burn in God's Consuming Fire for one heck of a long time. (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK

Rom 9:28  For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


Is there scriptures that says one will be in the LOF "a heck of a long time"??

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Hi! Laren

I'm Roy. Let me explain what I mean in the quote from my post above.

Today there are two Jesus Christs being taught on the market. One is the True Jesus Christ
who is Begotten /Born/Given birth to by the Father just as, in the world we live in, a woman gives birth to a child. This is the Jesus Christ spoken of in the Bible; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.  (Jn.1:1-2). This Word who is God is the true Jesus Christ, God.
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (Jn.1:14).

.

Now using simple logic, if you tell a lie you'll get your wrist slapped but if you murder someone then you're in for the high jump and get stuck in prison for a long period but you'll eventually come out, hopefully a good boy.

Now spiritually it's very similar, if you tell a lie and then repent the Lord will forgive you, unlike on earth where you get your wrist slapped. If you leave your First love and then repent and return to Him, He will not stick you in jail, but forgive you. But if you do not repent and return to Him then He is not going to forgive you and you'll have to go to the heavenly jail which is God's Consuming Fire to be purified and have the sin removed, because you cannot enter heaven with that sin. God is Perfect and you have to be perfect like Him before you can get anywhere near His kingdom. Peter tells us this; "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." (2Pet.2:20-22) That means burning in jail for a long time till you learn to be a good boy and then you'll be let out. Salvation for all good and bad.

I hope this helps.

Peace! (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Hi Roy
Been a little slow in responding..its not been one of my better days.

Firstly I would agree we do NOT worship Christ after the FLESH, we WORSHIP him in SPIRIT and TRUTH, being new a NEW MAN CREATED in HIM.

So, WHAT is SPIRIT and TRUTH?

Christ\ is SPIRIT and HE IS TRUTH ,meaning ,we WORSHIP Him by HIM IN  being in US and US IN HIM , ..now, this goes around as well, as The Father and Christ are ONE ,we now live in HIM being After the Cross,HIS LIFE..no longer knowing HIM AFTER THE FLESH.

Ib believe Most churches preach HIM in US AND US IN HIM, even if for now ,they may not fully grasp the finer details.

Now the other Jesus is they say is Created. This Jesus isn't mentioned in the Bible it is only the way man takes it upon himself to interpret the words in the Bible. This created Jesus Christ is a fake, a creation, an idol of man's imagination and to worship an idol is sin as you well know. Now we are told in; "But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent." (Rev.1:4-5) that God is our First love and we have fallen away from Him by worshiping the wrong Christ the created one, in this case, and to repent or face the consequences

For mine Dear friend you take this out of the context to whom it was written ...thia speaks of those primarilly who slipped away from GRACE back to LAW, .....which is very much the theme throughout more than a few epistles.

Now using simple logic, if you tell a lie you'll get your wrist slapped but if you murder someone then you're in for the high jump and get stuck in prison for a long period but you'll eventually come out, hopefully a good boy.

Now spiritually it's very similar, if you tell a lie and then repent the Lord will forgive you, unlike on earth where you get your wrist slapped. If you leave your First love and then repent and return to Him, He will not stick you in jail, but forgive you. But if you do not repent and return to Him then He is not going to forgive you and you'll have to go to the heavenly jail which is God's Consuming Fire to be purified and have the sin removed, because you cannot enter heaven with that sin. God is Perfect and you have to be perfect like Him before you can get anywhere near His kingdom. Peter tells us this; "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." (2Pet.2:20-22) That means burning in jail for a long time till you learn to be a good boy and then you'll be let out. Salvation for all good and bad.

again Roy for this too speak of those who fall away to false teaching, those Clouds without water etc,,,again for mine our friends the pharisses.

to Larens questions....No you will not find a Duration  of time  specified.. other than age..so how longs an age...?

whats purified our minds brother ,the flesh , that which is enmity towards HIM...That Tongue which preaches death ( M OF D)

The liars ,murders etc bro..are all those who TEACH LAW as a way to life, they are liars, murderers..these are metaphors Bro for such kind...those still of the CARNAL MIND....

Blessings for now Roy
T

[Nathan]

Matthew 18:8
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day

These are the passages dealing with what I presume to be the platform supporting the everlasting judgment concept.

There are about 3 times as many that speak of everlasting life also.  In this light, it does give the appearance that a case of eternal hell could be supported by these passages.

I am new to the idea of UR . . . I'm in a place where explaining it isn't as easy as accepting it.  The reason for this is because I don't rely on my own personal interpretations of Scripture as much as I do to the sound of the voice of the Lord within me.  Usually, once I give way to the new direction, understanding eventually comes to explain "why" my direction changed.  This is one of those times.  I didn't even know there was a name for "all being saved" until I began reading the forums.   I didn't come to realize I believed in it until about 3 months ago . . .and just learned what it was called about 6 weeks ago, but I have believed the lake of fire to be a process of purification rather than destruction for years . . somehow, I never made the connection between that and UR.  

From what little conversations I've been a part of . . .the word "everlasting" has a different meaning than what we perceive it to mean . .but if that is the cast, then does it also apply to the verses speaking about everlasting life?

[Roy Monis]

I agree Taffy,

My point is whether if someone doesn't "believe" right about the who TRUE Jesus is,

that they will burn a very long time. 


Here Roy is saying we must believe in a TRUE JESUS,

but then if we don't that his "wrath" will be a very long time. 



Is that true??  Will we burn a "very long time" if we don't believe in the TRUE Jesus.


If not, then isn't that a false belief about Jesus, and therefore a "wrong belief" about who the True Jesus is?




Is there any scripture that talks of "burning a very LONG time" for some sins??



To me, that would imply a "sick torturing God", one who prolongs his judgements on purpose just to "get even".

For sure Laren, I have my thoughts concerning scripture in such matters..But for now. Im waiting for Me fellow Brit ( Roy :icon_flower:) to answer himself, im hoping he will clear up it up... :icon_flower:

Later bro

T

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Hi! Taff

I don't follow. What is it you want me to answer myself with to clear what up. If I knew what it was you are referring to I'd be only too pleased to do it. Is it the use of the word duration. Well  what I mean by that is all souls won't be subject to God's refining process for the same duration of time. Someone like Saddam who has a massive history of crimes against his fellow brothers will take longer to make perfect than someone like the apostle Peter who has only a few bad character traits. Is that what you're looking for? Failing that I don't know what you mean.

Peace! (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy   

[laren]

I agree Taffy,

My point is whether if someone doesn't "believe" right about the who TRUE Jesus is,

that they will burn a very long time. 


Here Roy is saying we must believe in a TRUE JESUS,

but then if we don't that his "wrath" will be a very long time. 



Is that true??  Will we burn a "very long time" if we don't believe in the TRUE Jesus.


If not, then isn't that a false belief about Jesus, and therefore a "wrong belief" about who the True Jesus is?




Is there any scripture that talks of "burning a very LONG time" for some sins??



To me, that would imply a "sick torturing God", one who prolongs his judgements on purpose just to "get even".

For sure Laren, I have my thoughts concerning scripture in such matters..But for now. Im waiting for Me fellow Brit ( Roy :icon_flower:) to answer himself, im hoping he will clear up it up... :icon_flower:

Later bro

T

################

Hi! Taff

I don't follow. What is it you want me to answer myself with to clear what up. If I knew what it was you are referring to I'd be only too pleased to do it. Is it the use of the word duration. Well  what I mean by that is all souls won't be subject to God's refining process for the same duration of time. Someone like Saddam who has a massive history of crimes against his fellow brothers will take longer to make perfect than someone like the apostle Peter who has only a few bad character traits. Is that what you're looking for? Failing that I don't know what you mean.

Peace! (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy   

it's Laren not Taffy asking the question,

but yes, the duration part is what i'm questioning.  I see no scripture re: longer duration for "worse sins".  I was hoping you had some.

thanks

Laren

[Taffy]

Hi Roy
Been a little slow in responding..its not been one of my better days.

Firstly I would agree we do NOT worship Christ after the FLESH, we WORSHIP him in SPIRIT and TRUTH, being new a NEW MAN CREATED in HIM.

So, WHAT is SPIRIT and TRUTH?

Christ\ is SPIRIT and HE IS TRUTH ,meaning ,we WORSHIP Him by HIM   being in US and US IN HIM , ..now, this goes around as well, as The Father and Christ are ONE ,we now live in HIM being After the Cross,HIS LIFE..no longer knowing HIM AFTER THE FLESH.

I believe Most churches preach HIM in US AND US IN HIM, even if for now ,they may not fully grasp the finer details.

Now the other Jesus is they say is Created. This Jesus isn't mentioned in the Bible it is only the way man takes it upon himself to interpret the words in the Bible. This created Jesus Christ is a fake, a creation, an idol of man's imagination and to worship an idol is sin as you well know. Now we are told in; "But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent." (Rev.1:4-5) that God is our First love and we have fallen away from Him by worshiping the wrong Christ the created one, in this case, and to repent or face the consequences

For mine Dear friend, you take this out of the context to whom it was written ...this speaks of those primarilly who slipped away from GRACE back to LAW, .....which is very much the theme throughout more than a few epistles.

Now using simple logic, if you tell a lie you'll get your wrist slapped but if you murder someone then you're in for the high jump and get stuck in prison for a long period but you'll eventually come out, hopefully a good boy.

Now spiritually it's very similar, if you tell a lie and then repent the Lord will forgive you, unlike on earth where you get your wrist slapped. If you leave your First love and then repent and return to Him, He will not stick you in jail, but forgive you. But if you do not repent and return to Him then He is not going to forgive you and you'll have to go to the heavenly jail which is God's Consuming Fire to be purified and have the sin removed, because you cannot enter heaven with that sin. God is Perfect and you have to be perfect like Him before you can get anywhere near His kingdom. Peter tells us this; "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." (2Pet.2:20-22) That means burning in jail for a long time till you learn to be a good boy and then you'll be let out. Salvation for all good and bad.

again Roy, this too speaks of those who fall away to false teaching, those Clouds without water etc,,,again for mine our friends the pharisses.

to Larens questions....No you will not find a Duration  of time  specified.. other than age..so how longs an age...?

whats purified  Roy is our minds brother ,the flesh , that which is enmity towards HIM...That Tongue which preaches death ( M OF D)

The liars ,murders etc bro..are all those who TEACH LAW as a way to life, they are liars, murderers..these are metaphors Bro for such kind...those still of the CARNAL MIND....

Blessings for now Roy
T